Funny (political, religious) pictures

I don't deny that racism is happening now, as well as historically.

I AM saying that it is unjust to say (as a number on here are) "People who look like you did bad things in the past, or even now, and you're benefiting, so it's legal to punish you for that, despite you being just as (or more) qualified than this person over here who doesn't look like those people who did bad things."

Pursuing societal equality and egalitarianism is good. Doing it through judging people by race, sex, etc, is wrong.

Judging people on anything more than themselves is wrong. LONG AGO it was seen as wrong to pay for the sins of your father/mother. Don't go back to that.
 
Wasn't there a story about this? About a bunch of white rabbits who skin a black rabbit and tack its skin to the shed "...to teach the rest of them a lesson?" And then the story continues about how the tables turn and the black rabbits come into power, and a white rabbit gets in trouble, and when asking what should be done, everyone's eyes turn to the black rabbit skin still tacked to the shed?

--Patrick
 
I don't deny that racism is happening now, as well as historically.

I AM saying that it is unjust to say (as a number on here are) "People who look like you did bad things in the past, or even now, and you're benefiting, so it's legal to punish you for that, despite you being just as (or more) qualified than this person over here who doesn't look like those people who did bad things."

Pursuing societal equality and egalitarianism is good. Doing it through judging people by race, sex, etc, is wrong.

Judging people on anything more than themselves is wrong. LONG AGO it was seen as wrong to pay for the sins of your father/mother. Don't go back to that.
Dude, you aren't paying for the sins of you mother/father. You're not paying for anything, really. People just want the same chances that straight, white dudes get just by virtue of their orientation, skin color, and gender.

It's not flawless. It never will be flawless. Part of advocating for change is accepting that and working with the current solution until a better solution is found.
 
Dude, you aren't paying for the sins of you mother/father. You're not paying for anything, really. People just want the same chances that straight, white dudes get just by virtue of their orientation, skin color, and gender.

It's not flawless. It never will be flawless. Part of advocating for change is accepting that and working with the current solution until a better solution is found.
@LittleSin the current "correct" standard says "You're white, you'll be treated this way, that other person is (not white), you'll be treated some other way." That's racist, and wrong.

OTOH @Zero Esc points to articles that REVEAL bias. That's good! STOP RACISM. That includes all preferential racism. People are still getting selected (or screwed over) because of race (and other factors). STOP IT! Stop being @PatrThom 's example of horribleness! You shouldn't be doing good things just because you're afraid the tables will be turned later, you should just NOT DO BAD THINGS. And not perpetuate it back later if you get "the upper hand" (or whatever).
 
Grass is weak against ice, unless the ice is just a bulky water type using ice moves
But even then, the water type is almost certainly carrying an ice move as coverage against grass types, and given that virtually all water types can learn at least one ice move, sending out a grass type against a water type is simply risky.

Based on the silhouette, I'm inclined to think that's a Mimikyu, which is neutral against both water and ice, but can take a free hit and retaliate freely in the first round. Plus it's creepy as hell.
 
B

BErt

My joke-brain immediately went to TCG Rules where i think ice are all just considered water; no?


Fine, joke and pokemon fail, ill just be over here shoveling dirt on myself.
 
@LittleSin the current "correct" standard says "You're white, you'll be treated this way, that other person is (not white), you'll be treated some other way." That's racist, and wrong.

You keep coming back to that as if no one has any duty to right any wrong that was done before once they realised it was wrong and stopped doing it. Like if i'm all of a sudden sorry for not giving someone a part in a movie because they wouldn't sleep with me, and i then give them a part in another film, that's wrong because i'm treating them differently then the people i didn't screw over.

Except in this case i'm not even sorry, i'm just being forced to give the person parts in the hopes i'll learn something from it.

....

Also, let me quote myself, because you clearly missed it the 1st time:

And there it is...

Yeah, just look at this clear example of discrimination, why are they guarding kids of one race, but not the other:

 
You keep coming back to that as if no one has any duty to right any wrong that was done before once they realised it was wrong and stopped doing it. Like if i'm all of a sudden sorry for not giving someone a part in a movie because they wouldn't sleep with me, and i then give them a part in another film, that's wrong because i'm treating them differently then the people i didn't screw over.
Yes but YOU did it in that example. Personal responsibility. Good.

But why should a person of one race be punished (or favored) for something somebody ELSE of their race (or insert other group here) did?

Also, let me quote myself, because you clearly missed it the 1st time:
"There's a specific threat against these people because of their race, so we'll offer extra protection during that threat" is how I'd look at that. Unfortunately your advocacy above APPENDS to that "But since we protected the white people before, we'll let THEM go off and get lynched now, even generations later, for people that didn't actually participate (and possibly were not alive) when it originally happened."

You want to get ridiculous with your examples? Fine.
 

figmentPez

Staff member
But why should a person of one race be punished (or favored) for something somebody ELSE of their race (or insert other group here) did?
Yes, why should white people be favored because of what other members of their race did? Why should they get to keep wealth, education, land, etc. that was gained at the expense of other races?
 
Yes but YOU did it in that example. Personal responsibility. Good.

But why should a person of one race be punished (or favored) for something somebody ELSE of their race (or insert other group here) did?
Alright, try this analogy for why we do positive discrimination:
Rich White Person: Hello, I inherited my vast fortune from my Great-Grandfather.

Poor Black Person: Your Great-Grandfather made his money from the diamond mine he stole from my Great-Grandfather.

Rich White Person: Oooh, sucks to be you. I would give you some of my vast fortune to try and even it out a little, but why should I be punished because of what someone else did?

Society: Because you're still benefiting from what that someone else did. Now give him at least a small part of your vast fortune.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Alright, try this analogy for why we do positive discrimination:
Rich White Person: Hello, I inherited my vast fortune from my Great-Grandfather.

Poor Black Person: Your Great-Grandfather made his money from the diamond mine he stole from my Great-Grandfather.

Rich White Person: Oooh, sucks to be you. I would give you some of my vast fortune to try and even it out a little, but why should I be punished because of what someone else did?

Society: Because you're still benefiting from what that someone else did. Now give him at least a small part of your vast fortune.
So do we throw all the kennedies in jail or confiscate all their wealth because it literally all stemmed from Joe Sr.'s illegal bootlegging and (now illegal) insider trading?
 
So do we throw all the kennedies in jail or confiscate all their wealth because it literally all stemmed from Joe Sr.'s illegal bootlegging and (now illegal) insider trading?
You know that's not what I was arguing for. I called for the people who are still benefiting to give up a small part of those benefits in favour of those who were and still are disadvantaged.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
You know that's not what I was arguing for. I called for the people who are still benefiting to give up a small part of those benefits in favour of those who were and still are disadvantaged.
Putting aside the fundamental problem with the argument asserting it as given that the sins of the father shall be visited upon the descendents (and without statute of limitation), the thing still is, who judges the magnitude of the disadvantage, and apportions the size of the slice? And once that gate is open, what's to stop another politician in 10 years from saying "Welp, they're still disadvantaged, so obviously the first round of reparations weren't enough, so here come some more" and doing it again? And again?

And how exactly do you pay reparations for "opportunity and education" going forward, other than Affirmative Action/reverse discrimination? How does society really benefit from a lesser qualified (or even unqualified) candidate being given preference over a qualified one because the school/business/government agency had to maintain a diversity ratio?

I also want to point out here I consider all of this a hypothetical exercise. I would LOVE for the system Ash describes to be put into place, where all names and ethnicities are stricken from the application process and there is no interview. I would absolutely LOVE that - where the only criteria for hiring is capability. I'm just pointing out that those who argue for Affirmative Action have asserted that such a system would still discriminate against minorities.
 
Yes but YOU did it in that example. Personal responsibility. Good.

But why should a person of one race be punished (or favored) for something somebody ELSE of their race (or insert other group here) did?
So you think racism still exists, but you can't bring yourself to realise that means they're still actively keeping people down, and helping those people doesn't count as punishing YOU.

And you also seem to have a real problem with going from personal examples to examples of society as a whole.

But hey, if you can just have racists be forced to affirmative action hire people, i'm sure most people wouldn't mind... let me know how you plan on making sure that's applied right...

"There's a specific threat against these people because of their race, so we'll offer extra protection during that threat" is how I'd look at that.
So you do agree that there are circumstances in which we're allowed to treat races differently.

And, in one of your previous posts (responding to someone else) you also agreed that racism still exists.

But you don't seem to make the connection between those two, and realise that you should agree with protecting people during the threat from racism that limits their options.

And, like the national guard thing, the whole idea is to provide protection until people get used to it enough that it's no longer necessary.

Unfortunately your advocacy above APPENDS to that "But since we protected the white people before, we'll let THEM go off and get lynched now, even generations later, for people that didn't actually participate (and possibly were not alive) when it originally happened."
As i told Gas, that's BS, it's not about favouring one race in perpetuity.

It's about attempting to equalise things.

And i've already told you a few times that you're quite free to complain about the methods being inadequate, as long as you recognize that attempting it isn't bad itself.

As i told Gas: You can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs! Perfect is the enemy of good! and all that.

who judges the magnitude of the disadvantage, and apportions the size of the slice? And once that gate is open, what's to stop another politician in 10 years from saying "Welp, they're still disadvantaged, so obviously the first round of reparations weren't enough, so here come some more" and doing it again? And again?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

As for judging the appropriate amount, maybe when they stop calling the cops on black politicians going door to door, campaigning, you could look at the progress being made to see if you can stop.

I would LOVE for the system Ash describes to be put into place, where all names and ethnicities are stricken from the application process and there is no interview. I would absolutely LOVE that - where the only criteria for hiring is capability. I'm just pointing out that those who argue for Affirmative Action have asserted that such a system would still discriminate against minorities.
Well, it would if they can't get the same experience and education as the majority.

But you can (slowly) fix that through social programs for kids... which you're also against...
 
And how exactly do you pay reparations for "opportunity and education" going forward, other than Affirmative Action/reverse discrimination? How does society really benefit from a lesser qualified (or even unqualified) candidate being given preference over a qualified one because the school/business/government agency had to maintain a diversity ratio?
Who says the candidate is less qualified? Remember, the entire point of institutionalized racism is prevent qualified minorities from taking jobs/getting into schools they would otherwise be considered for. The only thing preventing them from those positions are uppity racists who don't want to work with/admit minorities. Or in the case of Silicon Valley, women. It's also about keeping them from getting those qualifications to begin with; it's hard to get things like management experience if you're constantly being passed over because of your skin color.

I also want to point out here I consider all of this a hypothetical exercise. I would LOVE for the system Ash describes to be put into place, where all names and ethnicities are stricken from the application process and there is no interview. I would absolutely LOVE that - where the only criteria for hiring is capability. I'm just pointing out that those who argue for Affirmative Action have asserted that such a system would still discriminate against minorities.
Which is a point that I did mention when I brought those changes up; ultimately, wealthy whites are going to have advantages that cannot be simply legislated away. A more fair system can be constructed, but a perfect one is impossible as long as human beings make hiring decisions.
 
You know that's not what I was arguing for. I called for the people who are still benefiting to give up a small part of those benefits in favour of those who were and still are disadvantaged.
We can’t even get rich White people to cough up a regular stipend for poor White people (see the Universal Basic Income thread for that discussion). What makes anyone think they’ll be ok with the idea of giving money to poor Brown people?

—Patrick
 
- Pick your choices based ONLY on this information. No interviews (they are statistically worthless).
Uh, what? I do a lot of hiring (less firing.) and interviews are not worthless. Like, maybe if you mean "Interviews do not tell you how well an individual will perform," sure. Lots of people interview well and underperform, and I'm sure there's plenty of people who interview badly and kill it when they're given the chance.

But.

In order to hire someone, I have to fill out a whole bunch of paperwork, then I have to have this read by HR (which in my case is a company that we pay), and then if that person isn't up to snuff, I can fire them without cause in the first 3 months, but that's MORE paperwork, and another round of emails with HR. That shit ain't free. It has 'worth'. I bring this up because some people come to interviews and clearly you do not want to work with them. Maybe they are a bad fit. Maybe they are a liar. Maybe they're rude, or racist (just to pick a fun random example no one has brought up).

Interviews are worthwhile. That, or make it legal for me to have them do two or three unpaid trial shifts so I don't have to waste my and our HR company's time.
 
Uh, what? I do a lot of hiring (less firing.) and interviews are not worthless. Like, maybe if you mean "Interviews do not tell you how well an individual will perform," sure. Lots of people interview well and underperform, and I'm sure there's plenty of people who interview badly and kill it when they're given the chance.

But.

In order to hire someone, I have to fill out a whole bunch of paperwork, then I have to have this read by HR (which in my case is a company that we pay), and then if that person isn't up to snuff, I can fire them without cause in the first 3 months, but that's MORE paperwork, and another round of emails with HR. That shit ain't free. It has 'worth'. I bring this up because some people come to interviews and clearly you do not want to work with them. Maybe they are a bad fit. Maybe they are a liar. Maybe they're rude, or racist (just to pick a fun random example no one has brought up).

Interviews are worthwhile. That, or make it legal for me to have them do two or three unpaid trial shifts so I don't have to waste my and our HR company's time.
Those are observable behaviors you CAN deal with once observed, but simply including any sort of interview process beyond an entrance interview after they've been (we literally call it a crazy test) drastically increases the chance for minority clients to be excluded on the basis of their skin color/ethnicity alone. To be frank, it's a cost worth paying (especially in comparison to a discrimination lawsuit) and there a certainly ways to reduce that cost via government intervention or legislation.

Again, the purpose of these changes is to make a more fair system. If I could make it completely fair, I'd be making 7 figures in Silicon Valley and the entire hiring process would be a highly guarded secret.
 
Those are observable behaviors you CAN deal with once observed, but simply including any sort of interview process beyond an entrance interview after they've been (we literally call it a crazy test) drastically increases the chance for minority clients to be excluded on the basis of their skin color/ethnicity alone. To be frank, it's a cost worth paying (especially in comparison to a discrimination lawsuit) and there a certainly ways to reduce that cost via government intervention or legislation.

Again, the purpose of these changes is to make a more fair system. If I could make it completely fair, I'd be making 7 figures in Silicon Valley and the entire hiring process would be a highly guarded secret.
After they've been what? Hired? Because I'm saying hiring is very expensive, and I hire more (especially in your scenario) than I face discrimination lawsuits.
 
Well, you could always have interviews where you can't see the other person... and maybe use a voice synth to eliminate the ethnic accent problem.
 
How does society really benefit from a lesser qualified (or even unqualified) candidate being given preference over a qualified one because the school/business/government agency had to maintain a diversity ratio?
There are plenty of examples of untouchable castes in societies through history. I'll let you figure out how avoiding that by allowing those people to get access to the experiences required to participate in mainstream society benefits society...

And then when happens when they have to actually show up for work?
Do work places not require any sort of ID to prove you're who you say you are? Or what?


In order to hire someone, I have to fill out a whole bunch of paperwork, then I have to have this read by HR (which in my case is a company that we pay), and then if that person isn't up to snuff, I can fire them without cause in the first 3 months, but that's MORE paperwork, and another round of emails with HR. That shit ain't free. It has 'worth'. I bring this up because some people come to interviews and clearly you do not want to work with them. Maybe they are a bad fit. Maybe they are a liar. Maybe they're rude, or racist (just to pick a fun random example no one has brought up).
And that's why AA is easier to do.

That, or make it legal for me to have them do two or three unpaid trial shifts so I don't have to waste my and our HR company's time.
Which completely undermines the purpose of not letting you see their race when hiring them...
 
Well, you could always have interviews where you can't see the other person... and maybe use a voice synth to eliminate the ethnic accent problem.
You also need to pitch it up/down to disguise gender. But really, there is no reason to do an in-person interview; all of this could be done by a voice chat program. If you REALLY wanted to do it in person, it would be expensive to set it up so you couldn't see them or hear their normal voice, but it could be done as well. But again; this STILL only tells you if you like the candidate, not whether they are qualified.

And then when happens when they have to actually show up for work?
You're going to have had enough information by the time they've shown up that you'll have known their real identity, if only because of things like "paychecks" and "benefits' and "disability". But here's the thing; if you force companies to submit their accounts of who they didn't hire/who they fired to government agencies, patterns of racial discrimination are easily observable. It doesn't matter if the company discriminates that late into the process; if they do it consistently then the pattern is observable and corrective steps can be taken. Hell, the government would have all the information it needs to contact those who are being discriminated against this way.

The problem with the process these days is that is can be done as soon as they see the name on the application, where it's much easier to hide the evidence of the discrimination. It's much harder to do once you have a paper trail from the process.
 
(Redacted. I don't fucking care anymore. Devils advocate or normalize all you want. You're the one who has to look your family in the face at the end of the day. Just keep telling yourselves they're not coming for YOU.)

Yet.
 
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