Gas Bandit's Political Thread III

[GasBandit]

The SAS ahve much more effective methods of gaining information (my favourite, after solitary, lace a "prisoner" who slowly gets everything out of you while being your only confort and company), and it doesnt take an idiot to see that one can easily break down the human psyche through psychological methods rather then physical.

You mean like subjecting them to being in close proximity to barking dogs and naked women?

 

[Bubble181]

The UK is talking about raising their top tax bracket to 50%. There are already talks about fears of "brain drain."

Not thinking about. We are doing it. And about damn time too.

Well, good on you folks over there! Will you feel the same way when the rich and corporations-you know, the ones who create jobs and wealth, move their operations to a lower-taxed area? That would be the "brain drain" GB referenced in his links, and it is no good whatsoever.

Here in Minnesota, there have been radio spots playing for about the last two-three years from the Sioux Falls (South Dakota) Development Agency, trying to attract Minnesota-based businesses to Sioux Falls with promises of better commutes, more open space, and best of all, LOWER TAXES. And guess what? It's working.

Top Belgian income tax bracket is 56%. We're still in the top-10 most productive and most innovative markets in the world. Your point? High taxes are only a problem if they aren't being used sensibly. SMart people tend not to be blind to, you know, free health insurance, actual paved roads, liveable pensions, whatnot. *shrug*

 

[Dieb]

Don't say "apologists" if you want to be taken seriously. It makes you sound like your primary news source is DailyKos, after having heard every opponent of "progressive" policy be called a "something apologist" for the last 8+ years. Just because you are in favor of something and have reasons you can cite for it doesn't mean you're "apologizing" on its behalf.

Look, I've got work stacking up here and I can't give all this the time it deserves (and I've STILL got today's links to put up), so I'm going to have to cut out with simply this - You have a terrorist in custody. You know there's an attack in the next few days, but you don't know exactly how or exactly where. You know he knows the details, and he knows you know, but he thinks all he has to do is hold out a few days and Allah's will be done. He is confidently assured in the victory of his cause. Thousands, if not tens of thousands of lives could be decided by your next choice - do you do everything in your power to extract the information or not? Think long and hard about that. If it comes down to it, if there's a chance to save those lives but you would have to compromise your humanity to do so, would you retain your humanity? Knowing that when the bomb goes off, the plane crashes, the train derails, whatever... that there might have been something you could have done to have stopped it and kept those people alive? Knowing that when you see the tear-streaked faces of the hundreds or more families at the funerals on CNN that their suffering was something you had a chance to avert, but you decided your own moral scruples were more important? Knowing that these people trusted you, as an extension of their government, to protect their well being and that of their loved ones? Knowing that you chose the comfort and sanity of a humanoid monster instead of their sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, and siblings?

Granted, I paint a very extreme and specific picture of a case for a single use of extreme methods and not as a standard practice. But the point of the exercise is to demonstrate that there is a point at which any decent human being, even the most die hard "terrorist apologist" (see how silly that sounds?) would have falterings in their convictions on this subject. Then, once that is established, it just becomes a debate about where that line is that says "you can do it in situation X but not Y."

Apologist was a bad word choice. And I didn't ever intend it to mean you - although rereading it makes it sound like I was slamming you. My "apologies" if you were offended :slywink:

Anyway, beyond bad puns, I have to point out your thought experiment is inane, and has no relation to real life. None of the torture that went on during Bush was of the "ticking time bomb" scenario. None. Life isn't 24 - you never KNOW that there's going to be an attack very soon, and KNOW that torturing this one guy is the only way to stop it.

But hey, this is a webforum, we're allowed to go down silly non-realistic rabbit holes. I'll put up another objection though - why would torture work in any ticking time bomb scenario? If I'm a terrorist, and I know that all I have to do is hold out for 2 days (or whatever period of time that is so short traditional interrogation methods don't work) I think I could take just about anything. Or rather, I'd take all the torture I could, and then I'd start lying. If you believed in a cause as much as these terrorists do, wouldn't you be able to postpone telling the truth for two days? If you were in Nazi Germany, for example, and you got caught two days before a major anti-Nazi strike, you don't think you could last just two days under torture?

But even if I knew that it would work (what an insane sentence)....No. No, I wouldn't use torture. I just don't trust ANYBODY - not even myself - with that kind of power. It's like if someone offered me the position of "Dictator of the World". There's a hell of a lot of good I could do with that job. I could save the lives of millions. But how could you trust yourself with that kind of power? I might start by saving millions...but I have no doubt that isn't how it'd end.

You say "...chance to save those lives but you would have to compromise your humanity to do so, would you retain your humanity?". I think that's bullshit. Just like saying the Holocaust, or whatever horrible thing you want to mention, is "inhuman" is bullshit. Have you looked at human history? Torture, genocide, rape, murder....it's all very, very human. Now, I don't want to seem like a misanthrope or anything - grace, sacrfice, forgiveness and compassion are all very human as well. But to say that torture isn't human is to blind yourself to the darkness that resides within each of our hearts. And THAT'S why I never would agree torture is necessary, even in rediculous hypotheticals. I don't trust myself, or anyone, to somehow channel that evil into the service of good.

 

[Mr_Chaz]

The UK is talking about raising their top tax bracket to 50%. There are already talks about fears of "brain drain."

Not thinking about. We are doing it. And about damn time too.

Well, good on you folks over there! Will you feel the same way when the rich and corporations-you know, the ones who create jobs and wealth, move their operations to a lower-taxed area? That would be the "brain drain" GB referenced in his links, and it is no good whatsoever.

Here in Minnesota, there have been radio spots playing for about the last two-three years from the Sioux Falls (South Dakota) Development Agency, trying to attract Minnesota-based businesses to Sioux Falls with promises of better commutes, more open space, and best of all, LOWER TAXES. And guess what? It's working.

Top Belgian income tax bracket is 56%. We're still in the top-10 most productive and most innovative markets in the world. Your point? High taxes are only a problem if they aren't being used sensibly. SMart people tend not to be blind to, you know, free health insurance, actual paved roads, liveable pensions, whatnot. *shrug*

Exactly, 50% is high, but is it so hight as to drive people away (bearing in mind just moving to the state next door isn't really an option here)? I suspect not. Or rather, the extra tax revenue from the increase will outweigh the loss of tax revenue from avoidance.

 

[JCM]

The SAS ahve much more effective methods of gaining information (my favourite, after solitary, lace a "prisoner" who slowly gets everything out of you while being your only confort and company), and it doesnt take an idiot to see that one can easily break down the human psyche through psychological methods rather then physical.

You mean like subjecting them to being in close proximity to barking dogs and naked women?

I liked the use of Barneys "I love you, you love me" day after day, its like that song found its true purpose.

Anyway, beyond bad puns, I have to point out your thought experiment is inane, and has no relation to real life. None of the torture that went on during Bush was of the "ticking time bomb" scenario. None. Life isn't 24 - you never KNOW that there's going to be an attack very soon, and KNOW that torturing this one guy is the only way to stop it.

But hey, this is a webforum, we're allowed to go down silly non-realistic rabbit holes. I'll put up another objection though - why would torture work in any ticking time bomb scenario? If I'm a terrorist, and I know that all I have to do is hold out for 2 days (or whatever period of time that is so short traditional interrogation methods don't work) I think I could take just about anything.

This.

SAS trains the soldiers to give false, yet acceptable info that will mislead their captors enough until the operation pulls through.

A terrorist could say that an attack would happen elsewhere, the feds as usual would up the security and give a pet on their heads with pride because "the attack didnt happen, so we must have stopped it" then say that an "attack was stopped because of torture info", so that supporters of human rights abuse can post it online as "proof" that it works.

Unlike liberatiarepublicans, I'll wait to see the proof, and the documentation, instead of latching on to any politician who agrees with me.

 

[GasBandit]

Sorry for playing hooky today folks. Once again, my day job has interfered with what I do during the day Had to cover for a coworker again.

Anyway, beyond bad puns, I have to point out your thought experiment is inane, and has no relation to real life. None of the torture that went on during Bush was of the "ticking time bomb" scenario. None. Life isn't 24 - you never KNOW that there's going to be an attack very soon, and KNOW that torturing this one guy is the only way to stop it.

It wasn't meant to be illustrative of any real event, it was meant purely as a hypothetical situation to see how one makes the choice... if on the one side of the scale, you have the specter of losing thousands of lives, and on the other a terrorist and a pair of cable shears suitable for cutting off fingers metarpals after phalanges, would one do it. If you are in a situation where the only way to save those lives is an act of inhumanity to one person, do the needs of the many outweigh?

But hey, this is a webforum, we're allowed to go down silly non-realistic rabbit holes. I'll put up another objection though - why would torture work in any ticking time bomb scenario? If I'm a terrorist, and I know that all I have to do is hold out for 2 days (or whatever period of time that is so short traditional interrogation methods don't work) I think I could take just about anything. Or rather, I'd take all the torture I could, and then I'd start lying. If you believed in a cause as much as these terrorists do, wouldn't you be able to postpone telling the truth for two days? If you were in Nazi Germany, for example, and you got caught two days before a major anti-Nazi strike, you don't think you could last just two days under torture?

That depends entirely upon the nature of the torture.

You say "...chance to save those lives but you would have to compromise your humanity to do so, would you retain your humanity?". I think that's bullshit. Just like saying the Holocaust, or whatever horrible thing you want to mention, is "inhuman" is bullshit. Have you looked at human history? Torture, genocide, rape, murder....it's all very, very human. Now, I don't want to seem like a misanthrope or anything - grace, sacrfice, forgiveness and compassion are all very human as well. But to say that torture isn't human is to blind yourself to the darkness that resides within each of our hearts. And THAT'S why I never would agree torture is necessary, even in rediculous hypotheticals. I don't trust myself, or anyone, to somehow channel that evil into the service of good.

What I meant by "retain your humanity" was to abstain from torturing the prisoner. Really, I share your stated opinion here about humankind, but I was using the commonly accepted term. Personally, I think the term "cruel and unusual punishment" is silly... a punishment has to be both cruel and unusual. If it is usual, it comes to be gradually tolerated and accepted as normal. If it isn't cruel, it has no effect.

-- Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:00 pm --

Exactly, 50% is high, but is it so hight as to drive people away (bearing in mind just moving to the state next door isn't really an option here)? I suspect not. Or rather, the extra tax revenue from the increase will outweigh the loss of tax revenue from avoidance.

I dunno, in this day and age of global commerce it's becoming less and less trouble to relocate your "headquarters" to duck taxes. But then again, I suppose if you do it slowly enough you can boil a frog without it ever jumping out of the pot.

 

[GasBandit]

Oh, and Minnesota has a higher GDP per capita than Belgium, as do the District of Columbia, Delaware, Connecticut, Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, Alaska, Colorado, Virginia, California, Nevada, Washington, Illinois, Maryland, Wyoming, Hawaii, New Hampshire, Oregon, Texas, North Carolina and Nebraska.


Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP_per_capita_(nominal)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

Belgium: 19th in the world at 36,235
Minnesota: 11th in the US at 41,295
United States: 6th in the world at 46,859

Ironically, by these figures, our least prosperous state would still be the 35th most prosperous country in the world if each state was counted separately.

 

[Dieb]

It wasn't meant to be illustrative of any real event, it was meant purely as a hypothetical situation to see how one makes the choice... if on the one side of the scale, you have the specter of losing thousands of lives, and on the other a terrorist and a pair of cable shears suitable for cutting off fingers metarpals after phalanges, would one do it. If you are in a situation where the only way to save those lives is an act of inhumanity to one person, do the needs of the many outweigh?

Is a purely hypothetical situation the best you can do as a defense of what the United States has done for the past seven years? Our former leaders are guilty of WAR CRIMES. If anyone died due to the torture we did to them (and the International Red Cross thinks that dozens, maybe more than a hundred, people DID die due to torture) Bush, Cheney, et al. could be given the DEATH PENALTY under US law. Now, obviously, that would never happen. We're not going to execute a former president, no matter what he did. I simply bring it up in order the magnitude of what he did.

We all know how quickly people are to call politicians on the other side Nazis in this country. It's really bloody stupid. And Bush and Cheney aren't even nearly as bad as the Nazis. Nonetheless, as you would have learned from really long post, what we did after 9/11 is directly compareable to techniques the Gestapo used in Norway. In fact, the Gestapo didn't even go as far as the US - they didn't use waterboarding, for instance. And no one died under their "care". Nonetheless, those Gestapo officers were EXECUTED FOR WAR CRIMES.

There is no doubt in my mind that if the methods we used in Gitmo and in many other places were used against Americans, Gas, you and everyone else defending the past administration would call them torture, and call for everything to be done to bring the offenders to justice. Hell, the North Vietnamese didn't do anything to John McCain that we haven't done - and we did more besides (again, waterboarding, for instace). So is it OK just because we did it? Hell no. HELL NO. I love America - I think it is a special place. Why? Because when we do evil - and this is hardly the first time we have done evil - we do our damndest to atone for it. We don't hide our flaws - we flaunt them! So that, in the future, we do better.

I'm not calling for prosecution, myself. It could get to that point, yes. But first, we need to know everything that happened. The American people deserve to know what happened in their names. If Cheney and all the others truely believe the government should have the power to torture, prove it. Because if you want to have the United States on the same side as the Spanish Inquisition, Hitler, Mussolini, Mao (for that matter, the current Chinese Government), Stalin, Pol Pot, and the countless other torturerers in history, I think the burdon of proof lies with those who want to torture.

What I meant by "retain your humanity" was to abstain from torturing the prisoner. Really, I share your stated opinion here about humankind, but I was using the commonly accepted term. Personally, I think the term "cruel and unusual punishment" is silly... a punishment has to be both cruel and unusual. If it is usual, it comes to be gradually tolerated and accepted as normal. If it isn't cruel, it has no effect.

I knew what you meant. I simply think the phrases such as "retain your humanity" and the like are nonsense, and I don't like to just let them pass by, even if the meaning is obvious. As for "cruel and unusual punishment", take it up with Founding Fathers. I think they (and I) have very different ideas about what "punishment" is than you do.

 

[Kitty Sinatra]

Ironically, by these figures, our least prosperous state would still be the 35th most prosperous country in the world if each state was counted separately.

Obama was closer with his 57 states. Although by Price is Right rules he failed for going over.

 

[JCM]

 

[Lamont]

Oh, and Minnesota has a higher GDP per capita than Belgium, as do the District of Columbia, Delaware, Connecticut, Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, Alaska, Colorado, Virginia, California, Nevada, Washington, Illinois, Maryland, Wyoming, Hawaii, New Hampshire, Oregon, Texas, North Carolina and Nebraska.


Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP_per_capita_(nominal)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

Belgium: 19th in the world at 36,235
Minnesota: 11th in the US at 41,295
United States: 6th in the world at 46,859

Ironically, by these figures, our least prosperous state would still be the 35th most prosperous country in the world if each state was counted separately.

Cross-referencing this with your oft-repeated claim that "socialism" doesn't work for "big" countries, seems to me like you're arguing here that "socialism" would actually work at a state level.

 

And in Monday news, GB gets a stiffy.

 

[GasBandit]

Ironically, by these figures, our least prosperous state would still be the 35th most prosperous country in the world if each state was counted separately.

Obama was closer with his 57 states. Although by Price is Right rules he failed for going over.

Sorry, I was headed out the door in a hurry. What I meant to say is that our least prosperous state would still be MORE PROSPEROUS PER CAPITA THAN the 35th most prosperous country in the world.

Cross-referencing this with your oft-repeated claim that "socialism" doesn't work for "big" countries, seems to me like you're arguing here that "socialism" would actually work at a state level.

That depends entirely upon the federal government ceding enough power to the state level for them to run independent socialist governments, which will never happen. Furthermore, have you ever been to Mississippi? If not for capitalism, that place would sink back into the swamp. Having a socialist government is like never putting your car in a gear higher than 2nd. Just imagine how intimidating a world player these nations could be if they could find the higher gears and actually started leveraging their economic muscle with the training wheels off.

And in Monday news, GB gets a stiffy.

I must confess my dark secret... I've never read any Ayn Rand.

 

[GasBandit]

Link time!!


George Carlin on earth day
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOOc5yiIWkg:t4wofpyz][/youtube:t4wofpyz]


Italian cruise liner fights off Somali pirates... by hiring Israeli mercs.

The swine flu panic now has even democrats wanting to close the southern border.

Obama just presided over the largest government spending increase in the history of our nation .. and NOW he's on the PAYGO kick? ... BOHICA.

Hillary Clinton says that last week's deadly bombings in Iraq are a sign that extremists are afraid that the Iraqi government is succeeding.

Here is a classic story of a woman who voted for Obama because he was supposed to solve all of her problems ... but now reality has set in, and she isn't too pleased that Obama hasn't shown up at her door to personally pay her electric bill.

Leading up to Obama's 100th day in office, the New York Post has taken the liberty of listing 100 mistakes for his 100 days in office.

Al Sharpton is daring Rudy Giuliani to run for governor of New York against David Patterson.

Attorney General Eric Holder is begging Europe to take our Gitmo detainees.

Democrat Rep. John Dingell tells Al Gore, "Nobody in this country realizes that cap-and-trade is a tax -- and it's a great big one."

Guess who is going to be the senior advisor to our labor secretary? A woman known as an influential advocate for the card check legislation.

Did Al Gore lie to the Senate committee about how much money he has personally kept from his global warming scam?

How close are we coming to government-backed credit cards? Some are calling them "O-cards" since they would essentially be backed by Barack Obama.

Kim Jong-Il is already grooming his son to succeed him.

The King of Jordan says that if the United States doesn't do something soon, there is going to be a war in the Middle East.

Who is going to be the Senator from Minnesota? Looks like we are going to have to wait until June for the state Supreme Court to decide.

 

[Lamont]

That depends entirely upon the federal government ceding enough power to the state level for them to run independent socialist governments, which will never happen. Furthermore, have you ever been to Mississippi? If not for capitalism, that place would sink back into the swamp. Having a socialist government is like never putting your car in a gear higher than 2nd. Just imagine how intimidating a world player these nations could be if they could find the higher gears and actually started leveraging their economic muscle with the training wheels off.

Oh yeah. I shudder.

I must confess my dark secret... I've never read any Ayn Rand.

I surmised as much. Though you often state opinions that are broadly in agreement with hers, you never use her language, which is the tell-tale sign of the addled Randian.

I used to be a huge Rand nut. I still have a soft spot for her epistemology. Of course, it's hysterical to see right-wingers wittering about "going Galt" when at least fifty percent of Rand's opinions would freeze their blood if they bothered to read her.

 

[GasBandit]

I surmised as much. Though you often state opinions that are broadly in agreement with hers, you never use her language, which is the tell-tale sign of the addled Randian.

Heh, so what you're saying is "at least you come by YOUR delusions honestly?"

 

[GasBandit]

As happens so often, Socks and Barney makes me giggle.

 

[Dieb]

That depends entirely upon the federal government ceding enough power to the state level for them to run independent socialist governments, which will never happen. Furthermore, have you ever been to Mississippi? If not for capitalism, that place would sink back into the swamp. Having a socialist government is like never putting your car in a gear higher than 2nd. Just imagine how intimidating a world player these nations could be if they could find the higher gears and actually started leveraging their economic muscle with the training wheels off.

Eh, I don't think Mississippi at 35th is that impressive. It's right around Hungry and Slovenia actually, ie, about as rich as the poorest EU countries. I mean, it's not like that's BAD, but it's no better than Europe.

And I think Lamont was talking about the list of states by per capital GDP. 13 out of the top 14 states (I'm ignoring DC) voted for Obama (Alaska being the only exception, and Alaska is that far up for the same reason Saudia Arabia is 30th in the list of countries). While Massachusetts, New York, and California are not socialist they are the closest America has got, and the fact that they are 3rd, 4th, and 9th respectively on that list hardly is an argument that they have bad policy.

Obama just presided over the largest government spending increase in the history of our nation .. and NOW he's on the PAYGO kick? ... BOHICA.

Oh please. I'm sure WWII was way higher (we ended that war with debt at about 150% of GDP), and I'm pretty damn sure the New Deal and the Civil War would be much higher as well. In any case, would you be happier if he DIDN'T want a return to PAYGO now? Isn't stopping the increase in deficits the first step?

Here is a classic story of a woman who voted for Obama because he was supposed to solve all of her problems ... but now reality has set in, and she isn't too pleased that Obama hasn't shown up at her door to personally pay her electric bill.

Yes, people are idiots. People voted for McCain, and for that matter Bob Barr, for equally stupid reasons.

Leading up to Obama's 100th day in office, the New York Post has taken the liberty of listing 100 mistakes for his 100 days in office.

Oh wow, talk about a horrible article. How did this get by fact checkers? I can eyeball a dozen factual mistakes (the White House has not taken over the census from Commerce - although the White House will help, just as it did under Bush, the other Bush, Reagan, and so on down the line), not to even talk about listing very silly things as "mistakes" (yes, Obama called for Turkey to get into the EU and didn't mention the Armenian genocide...just like every President before him, just like McCain would have done). There are plenty of legitamite ways to critisize Obama, but this list is rediculous.

Democrat Rep. John Dingell tells Al Gore, "Nobody in this country realizes that cap-and-trade is a tax -- and it's a great big one."

Nobody realises? Is John Dingell an idiot? Of course it's functionally a tax. Everyone who has actually studied the issue knows that. Maybe Congress doesn't fall under "actually studied the issue", but everyone I've read pro and against knows it.

Guess who is going to be the senior advisor to our labor secretary? A woman known as an influential advocate for the card check legislation.

Ummm....yea? Obama is for card check legislation. He's going to appoint people who are also for it. This is news?

Anyway, you might not be a Randian, Gas, but I may have figured out a basis for some of your beliefs. I was rereading "Starship Troopers" by Robert Heinlein yesterday, where I came across a passage about "cruel and unusual punishment" that was, well, basically just a longer version of what you posted above. And I realized that Heinlein was basically a libertarian but with many, shall we say, milteristic views. Kinda like someone on this board :slywink: So, have you read the book? I love it, although I disagree with 90% of what he says.

 

[GasBandit]

I've read it, but I'm more of a "Moon is a harsh mistress" Heinleinian than a Starship Troopers Heinleinian

 

[Mr_Chaz]

Now this is an interesting one...

Whatever happened to pandemic protection?
Sure the source may be biased, but the relevant parts aren't...

Maine Senator Collins... fumed about the pandemic funding: "Does it belong in this bill? Should we have $870 million in this bill? No, we should not."

(edited to remove unnecessary bias)

The Senate version of the stimulus plan included no money whatsoever for pandemic preparedness.

I might actually agree with the Republicans on this: The number of jobs brought into the economy by this spending would probably be fairly small, and the current funding may well be enough, but the timing sure as hell sucks!

 

[Lamont]

Anyway, you might not be a Randian, Gas, but I may have figured out a basis for some of your beliefs. I was rereading "Starship Troopers" by Robert Heinlein yesterday, where I came across a passage about "cruel and unusual punishment" that was, well, basically just a longer version of what you posted above. And I realized that Heinlein was basically a libertarian but with many, shall we say, milteristic views. Kinda like someone on this board :slywink: So, have you read the book? I love it, although I disagree with 90% of what he says.

Oh that book creeps the fuck out of me. I used to adore it as a teen, and then I twigged to what it was really saying. Reading Heinlein's letters is also a disquieting experience. The man had two modes: patronising and full-on rant.

Of the Big Three of science fiction, Heinlein is the one whose star will dim the fastest and most thoroughly.

ETA: although in the current climate, he might enjoy a resurgence in the US. American culture seems to have gone completely fetishistic about the military.

 

[GasBandit]

Our Great Communicator floundered via teleprompter.

Any guesses as to how much the Treasury Department said it will need to borrow in the current April-June quarter? I'll give you a hint - it's definitely a record.

Hillary Clinton says that the United States is ready to "make up for lost time" when it comes to global warming policies.

Janet Napolitano has decided that closing the Mexican border is not the answer to containing this swine flu after all. Guess she doesn't play much Pandemic 2.

The children of illegal aliens cost Los Angeles County $44 million in welfare just in the month of March.

How Obama's tax policies are going to affect small business owners.

The latest restructuring plan for General Motors would mean that the government and the UAW would own 89% of GM. People's Glorious Revolutionary Automobile Manufacturer, hm?

Decades of ridiculous malpractice policy and the looming specter of government health care are having predictable results.

 

[DarkAudit]

You don't matter anymore. We don't have to listen to you anymore.

PA Sen. Arlen Specter switching parties.

When Franken finally gets seated, that's 60. So there.

 

[GasBandit]

Well, good. At least he's being true to his beliefs instead of being a RINO. I'm all for the other RINOs also jumping ship. Maybe if the Republican party can be dealt a mortal blow, it will finally clear the path for the rise of true conservatism, Libertarianism.

 

[SpecialKO]

Well, good. At least he's being true to his beliefs instead of being a RINO. I'm all for the other RINOs also jumping ship. Maybe if the Republican party can be dealt a mortal blow, it will finally clear the path for the rise of true conservatism, Libertarianism.

We do need a competent, less morally-bankrupt, loyal opposition party, that's for sure. And I'm a Democrat saying this.

I would prefer it if our system wasn't so built towards only having two parties, but that seems a bit of a pipe-dream.

 

[Armadillo]

Well, good. At least he's being true to his beliefs instead of being a RINO. I'm all for the other RINOs also jumping ship. Maybe if the Republican party can be dealt a mortal blow, it will finally clear the path for the rise of true conservatism, Libertarianism.

Jesus Christo on a honey-drizzled sopapilla, we can hope so.

With the social conservatives making up a decent size of the population, I'm not holding out much hope.

 

Well, good. At least he's being true to his beliefs instead of being a RINO. I'm all for the other RINOs also jumping ship. Maybe if the Republican party can be dealt a mortal blow, it will finally clear the path for the rise of true conservatism, Libertarianism.

We do need a competent, less morally-bankrupt, loyal opposition party, that's for sure. And I'm a Democrat saying this.

I would prefer it if our system wasn't so built towards only having two parties, but that seems a bit of a pipe-dream.

We don't need a less morally bankrupt opposition party. We need 5 or 6.

2 Party system is what's ruining us.

 

[Espy]

You don't matter anymore. We don't have to listen to you anymore.

You used to feel like you HAD to listen to GasBandit?
I didn't even know he had a radio show. Whats the call numbers GB?

 

[Covar]

You don't matter anymore. We don't have to listen to you anymore.

You used to feel like you HAD to listen to GasBandit?
I didn't even know he had a radio show. Whats the call numbers GB?

1-800-282-2882

 

[DarkAudit]

You don't matter anymore. We don't have to listen to you anymore.

You used to feel like you HAD to listen to GasBandit?
I didn't even know he had a radio show. Whats the call numbers GB?

When one side or the other is flooding the air with noise, it's difficult to get away from it.

In other words, the right simply will not SHUT UP. Now there's much less of a reason to placate the Republicans. Much less of a reason to give credence to any more of their bleatings.

Like it or not, the public face of the conservative movement is Boss Limbaugh. The greater public is rejecting him and his message in larger and larger numbers with each passing week. Today's news gives them no reason to pay any more attention to them.

 

[Armadillo]

You don't matter anymore. We don't have to listen to you anymore.

You used to feel like you HAD to listen to GasBandit?
I didn't even know he had a radio show. Whats the call numbers GB?

When one side or the other is flooding the air with noise, it's difficult to get away from it.

In other words, the right simply will not SHUT UP. Now there's much less of a reason to placate the Republicans. Much less of a reason to give credence to any more of their bleatings.

Like it or not, the public face of the conservative movement is Boss Limbaugh. The greater public is rejecting him and his message in larger and larger numbers with each passing week. Today's news gives them no reason to pay any more attention to them.

Why should the right shut up? The left never shut up during the last eight years, and that was the highest form of patriotism one could show, right? And to the same people, right-wingers telling the left to can it was fascism and 1984-style censorship. Funny how the roles have reversed...Of course, if you're not a fan of talk radio or other conservative outlets, you're not forced to listen to it.

Limbaugh being "the face of the conservative movement" is something the left assigned to him, not the right. The liberals in my life know FAR more about Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, FOX News, and the rest than any conservative I know. Would this be because for whatever reason, even when they're in almost untouchable power, the left needs a boogeyman so they can stay comfortable in their self-made victimhood?

And to stay neutral...Republicans suck.

 

[DarkAudit]

Why should they shut up? Because the noise they are making now is bordering on the treasonous. You have sitting governors talking secession. You have not just talk show hosts, but sitting members of Congress talking armed revolution. You have sitting members of Congress calling fellow members un-american and invoking Vietnam-era reeducation camps.

You have that kind of talk guiding the thoughts of people who target police officers. Then you get feigned shock when it's suggested that talk may have motivated the murder of three police officers.

If that's the kind of noise they are going to make, yes, absolutely, they should STFU.

 

[Armadillo]

Why should they shut up? Because the noise they are making now is bordering on the treasonous. You have sitting governors talking secession. You have not just talk show hosts, but sitting members of Congress talking armed revolution. You have sitting members of Congress calling fellow members un-american and invoking Vietnam-era reeducation camps.

You have that kind of talk guiding the thoughts of people who target police officers. Then you get feigned shock when it's suggested that talk may have motivated the murder of three police officers.

If that's the kind of noise they are going to make, yes, absolutely, they should STFU.

All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.

Every citizen should be a soldier. This was the case with the Greeks and Romans, and must be that of every free state.

Every generation needs a new revolution.

Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves are its only safe depositories.

Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.

I have no fear that the result of our experiment will be that men may be trusted to govern themselves without a master.

I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion.

I own that I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive.

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.

It behooves every man who values liberty of conscience for himself, to resist invasions of it in the case of others: or their case may, by change of circumstances, become his own.

-All quotes from Thomas Jefferson: Founding Father, Author of the Declaration of Independence, Third President of the United States, Treasonous Bastard.

 

[Covar]

One could make the case for first Democrat as well.

 

[Armadillo]

One could make the case for first Democrat as well.

...who bears ZERO resemblance to the modern Democratic Party.