Gas Bandit's Political Thread V: The Vampire Likes Bats

[GasBandit]

I don't think we should ever restrict voting rights, period

We already do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_disenfranchisement#United_States

The United States is one of the leading nations in the world when it comes to denying the vote to those of its citizens who have felony convictions on their record.[5]

In the US, the constitution implicitly permits the states to adopt rules about disenfranchisement "for participation in rebellion, or other crime", by the fourteenth amendment, section 2. It is up to the states to decide which crimes could be ground for disenfranchisement, and they are not formally bound to restrict this to felonies; however, in most cases, they do.

-- Remember, there is no constitutionally protected right to vote.[DOUBLEPOST=1409939652,1409939490][/DOUBLEPOST]

They do but I'll give you 2 guesses as to which lesson I think is more valuable for someone who might be in the position to influence how our society functions and what laws and regulations govern it.

I'm not entirely sure you have an accurate picture in your mind of what military service entails, really.[DOUBLEPOST=1409940110][/DOUBLEPOST]Unrelated to the military/voting conversation, but it's my thread, MY THREAD, MY THREAD:

 

[Espy]

I'm not entirely sure you have an accurate picture in your mind of what military service entails, really.

Man, you are right, how would I know what military service entails? It's not like anyone in my life has ever had anything to do with the military. Well, other than my Dad, my brother, my wife, my brother-in-law. my best friend... I mean I could go on about what kind of service I think might produce good leaders, which is really an opinion thing anyway, but I think you already told me what I do and don't know so I'll shut up.

 

[GasBandit]

Man, you are right, how would I know what military service entails? It's not like anyone in my life has ever had anything to do with the military. Well, other than my Dad, my brother, my wife, my brother-in-law. my best friend... I mean I could go on but I think you already told me what I do and don't know so I'll shut up.

You've used up your sarcasm quota for the rest of the year, btw.

Alright, so you've got just as many people close to you in the military as I had. I'm not sure how we got such very different ideas about what military life is, and what goes on for those in the military.

 

[Covar]

That's why I only comment on the military one weekend a month.

 

[Espy]

You've used up your sarcasm quota for the rest of the year, btw.
Alright, so you've got just as many people close to you in the military as I had. I'm not sure how we got such very different ideas about what military life is, and what goes on for those in the military.

Excellent we've established it's ok for us to have opinions on something.

I think it's possible you are reading a lot into what I think or don't think military service entails. You might want to re-read my post where I say: *And no, I'm not saying people in the military don't learn things that can't be useful in real life or don't get opportunities to become good leaders, etc, etc. Just stating what I think might make better leaders.

Clearly I think the military can and does produce good leaders and people. I'm merely offering that there may be some lessons from other areas of public service that could benefit our political crops. [DOUBLEPOST=1409941339,1409941218][/DOUBLEPOST]

All I know is that according to some people if you haven't been in the military it doesn't matter how many military friends and family you have, you are not allowed to comment on the situation.

The military is always protective of how people talk about

 

[GasBandit]

But that was your disclaimer to the following sentence:

I'd much rather have leaders who know what it's like to be shit on by society and have to decide if you pay your water bill or your electricity bill this month than one who can score perfect on the gun range.

Thus, despite your disclaimer, you paint a picture of military service simply one being of rewards based on combat prowess and detachment from the day-to-day struggle of living. I don't know about yours, but I practically never heard my military family members talking about/comparing their scores on the gun range.

Plus, we already do incredible amounts for the poor. The "poor" in the US generally have a higher standard of living than most middle class Europeans. We've spent 50 years and 20 trillion dollars waging the "war on poverty" and our metrics say we still have the exact same amount of poverty as we did when we started. I don't think the problem is that we have a ruling class that is deaf to the plight of the poor, but rather we have many who believe that the answer lies in throwing money at it, money they find in somebody else's pockets.

 

[SpecialKO]

Not knowing anything about life in the military, I'm going to say that I don't like felony disenfrachisement either. Especially as long as people can get hit with felonies for non-violent drug possession.

(Yes, I know the conversation has moved on, I just wanted to respond to GB's point that...y'know...I'll go now)

 

[Espy]

But that was your disclaimer to the following sentence:



Thus, despite your disclaimer, you paint a picture of military service simply one being of rewards based on combat prowess and detachment from the day-to-day struggle of living. I don't know about yours, but I practically never heard my military family members talking about/comparing their scores on the gun range.

Despite that being a kind of tongue in cheek generalization I made (I should have put a winky face or something, anyone who knows me knows that I have a lot of respect for the military, I mean, hell I fucking married into it), it still says nothing to contrast my very serious statement that I will quote again and even bold it this time because this discussion is getting silly: *And no, I'm not saying people in the military don't learn things that can't be useful in real life or don't get opportunities to become good leaders, etc, etc. Just stating what I think might make better leaders.

You can keep trying to find ways to turn me into the opponent in your head you want me to be, who hates the military and thinks they are all a bunch of idiot gun toting rednecks or whatever but as someone who has had to send his wife overseas multiple times on deployments I'll kindly say please take that bullshit somewhere else sir.

Plus, we already do incredible amounts for the poor. The "poor" in the US generally have a higher standard of living than most middle class Europeans. We've spent 50 years and 20 trillion dollars waging the "war on poverty" and our metrics say we still have the exact same amount of poverty as we did when we started. I don't think the problem is that we have a ruling class that is deaf to the plight of the poor, but rather we have many who believe that the answer lies in throwing money at it, money they find in somebody else's pockets.

Yeah, I don't think you are getting what I'm talking about at all. It's cool though. I really think it'd be cool to see more people who want to be leaders learning how to serve others who are in worse positions than they are. I'll just leave it at that.

 

[GasBandit]

Despite that being a kind of tongue in cheek generalization I made (I should have put a winky face or something, anyone who knows me knows that I have a lot of respect for the military, I mean, hell I fucking married into it), it still says nothing to contrast my very serious statement that I will quote again and even bold it this time because this discussion is getting silly: *And no, I'm not saying people in the military don't learn things that can't be useful in real life or don't get opportunities to become good leaders, etc, etc. Just stating what I think might make better leaders.

You can keep trying to find ways to turn me into the opponent in your head you want me to be, who hates the military and thinks they are all a bunch of idiot gun toting rednecks or whatever but as someone who has had to send his wife overseas multiple times on deployments I'll kindly say please take that bullshit somewhere else sir.

I probably would have just blown it off if that kind of knee jerk, uninformed, fallaciously emotional vivid imagery hadn't become your argument of first resort in recent months.

 

[Espy]

Oh are we at that point in the conversation then? Yay.

 

[Necronic]

Surprised no one mentioned this, but in the article it says that he was draftable during Vietnam but pulled a high number. But he totally would have gone if called upon. In a way it does show his approval of the draft since he refused to fight unless he was drafted.

Not quite the Chickenhawk level of Dick Cheney or Ted Nugent, but still not that great.

 

[Necronic]

Could always go the Heinleinian model - Military service is only manditory if you want to vote or hold office. If you want to have a say in how the country is led, you have to show your willingness to put yourself in harm's way for it. But if enfranchisement doesn't matter to you, then you don't have to go.

I have such mixed feelings on his models of the military. For one, I'm not a fan of induced service, it makes for bad soldiers, but is this an inducement or a draw for the highly motivated?

Also there's the fact that this idea, which at the earliest I can remember was mentioned in Starship Troopers, was in the context of a draft. A draftless society had not existed when this was written (the book was written in the 60s or something iirc), so it is actually a far more generous model in some ways than the one that currently existed, even if it looks harsh by current standards.

I do like the fact that he saw service as being many possible things, not just infantry/combat. One of the big problems with a universal conscription is that it pulls inventors away from making better weapons. Those dudes should have ZERO distractions, you want them sequestered and pampered, whatever they need. Or with you logisticians or cryptologists, is there any value in removing them from their studies for the opportunity to shoot a rifle? Same (to some extent) with the skilled laborers/engineers needed to make the boats and planes and tanks and space marine power armor needed to fight the filthy xenos scum. In Heinlein's model service could exist in a lot of forms, so you could go in for the draft and end up working at the NSA.

But that's sort of oversimplified isn't it? To be a cryptologist or inventor of any real value you will need easily a decade of post-secondary school and experience. You will not be of any real value to the government until at least your mid twenties, more likely your early 30s. So how do you draft someone at 18 and put them to work as a cryptologist? Answer is that you can't. Not really. So do those people lose the right to vote? Do you draft them as infantry and curtail their real value?

 

[GasBandit]

Oh are we at that point in the conversation then? Yay.

I'm simply pointing out I notice a pattern. I have to drag actual argument, sources, or justifications out of you in almost every single discussion. But you're always quick with a disparaging generalization for the non-present people who you don't agree with. Remember how every open-carry advocate was, and I quote, a "fat racist asshole" hell bent on scaring your specific kid at restaurants? How your argument about the decal of the woman in the truck basically boiled down to "nuh uh, nothing is this horrible, the end" with your only supporting argument being "I don't expect you to understand or agree." How what has become #gamergate "just sounds like the nutso men's rights crowd trying to start a bonfire" and then just a vague, general accusation of "some of you guys are really creepy with how you talk about women, ugh."

You've basically been posting tweets or youtube comments.

Also you often like to say "oh are we at this point in the conversation?"

 

[Espy]

Ok.

 

[GasBandit]

Ok.

 

[Necronic]

Sitting on the Heinlein thing for a bit more, if you really want to spend some time doing some serious thinking, compare Heinlein and Rand. Both were these huge proponents of the responsibility of the individual, and generally very conservative/libertarian. But they were also so completely different in other ways. Heinlein borders on a fascist statist in his writings, and Rand and her characters comes across as a draft dodging cowards. It is a very interesting contrast to view the two fiction writers most influential to the libertarian movement.

an interview with Heinlein that reveals his deep epistemological differences from Rand

http://jneilschulman.rationalreview.com/2010/06/a-philosophical-conversation-with-robert-a-heinlein/

 

[Espy]

Pretty much dude. I mean, I could sit here and point out how you always go on a pissy little offensive anytime I don't engage with whatever weird rabbit hole you run down instead of actually dealing with the conversation whats the point? You make it really unpleasant to converse with when people don't adhere to whatever strange guidelines you've given the discussion in your head or even sometimes if people just have a different opinion. And even when I say lets just agree to disagree you still get all pissy. So yeah, I just don't see a point after you start going that direction. It's as if all you want is some kind of angry pissing match full of insults and attacks and well, I'm not terribly interested in that. It just causes me go, "Oh, well this feels pointless now" and call it a day.

 

[GasBandit]

Obviously one must be very careful about what they choose as a model for real life application from science fiction, especially so from Heinlein - he had some screws loose that came progressively looser as he aged in regards to certain things, most notably sex. But when it comes to subjects as deeply rooted as government, military, and the nature of the relationship between the governed and the governor, there's a lot of hypothetical ground to cover. Naturally, also, the political views put forth in Starship Troopers don't mesh perfectly with those put forth in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress (the latter of which is my absolute favorite Sci Fi novel, no real surprise there, hm?).[DOUBLEPOST=1409949729,1409949416][/DOUBLEPOST]

Pretty much dude. I mean, I could sit here and point out how you always go on a pissy little offensive anytime I don't engage with whatever weird rabbit hole you run down instead of actually dealing with the conversation whats the point? You make it really unpleasant to converse with when people don't adhere to whatever strange guidelines you've given the discussion in your head or even sometimes if people just have a different opinion. And even when I say lets just agree to disagree you still get all pissy. So yeah, I just don't see a point after you start going that direction. It's as if all you want is some kind of angry pissing match full of insults and attacks and well, I'm not terribly interested in that. It just causes me go, "Oh, well this feels pointless now" and call it a day.

I think you should have said "piss" one or two more times.

I don't have "strange guidelines," I just like for a discussion to involve more than mere unsupported contradictory assertions and fallacious appeals to emotion.

"Ok." in 3... 2... 1...

 

[Espy]

I'll tell you this, I am impressed with your constancy in insulting language and attempts to twist words into whatever makes others look stupid and allows you to ignore actually dealing with the content. I mean, you aren't JCM but you've clearly learned from the best.

 

[Espy]

I won't deny being sarcastic or making jokes, but I don't believe I've insulted or attacked anyone personally. If I did or anyone took anything as a personal attack on them I'm sorry for that for sure.

 

[GasBandit]

I'll tell you this, I am impressed with your constancy in insulting language and attempts to twist words into whatever makes others look stupid and allows you to ignore actually dealing with the content. I mean, you aren't JCM but you've clearly learned from the best.

If you really believed half of what you said about me, you'd have pulled a Krisken long ago and put me on ignore. Instead, 15 of your last 20 posts have been to this thread (3 times my own, and this thread is named after me!). That's a very non-trivial amount of your forum presence dedicated to "calling it a day because this is pointless."

And say what you will about JCM - he had some indefensible positions, but when he told me that Yugioh had more artistic merit than Michelangelo's David, he spent the next 20 pages of the thread explaining why.

 

[Espy]

If you really believed half of what you said about me, you'd have pulled a Krisken long ago and put me on ignore. Instead, 15 of your last 20 posts have been to this thread (3 times my own, and this thread is named after me!). That's a very non-trivial amount of your forum presence dedicated to "calling it a day because this is pointless."

And say what you will about JCM - he had some indefensible positions, but when he told me that Yugioh had more artistic merit than Michelangelo's David, he spent the next 20 pages of the thread explaining why.

Well, like I've said before, I generally enjoy talking with you, and I like this thread and the folks who engage in it, but yeah, if a discussion hits a point where it feels like it's just ramming into a brick wall then I'm alright saying lets just agree to disagree.

 

[GasBandit]

Well, like I've said before, I generally enjoy talking with you, and I like this thread and the folks who engage in it

I say this with all honesty: You could have fooled me. The tone of most of the posts I read from you on such discussions really did not come across to me as that of a person who is enjoying discussing the topic at hand. It felt more along the lines of someone opening a door and recoiling, blurting "What in God's name is going on in here?!"

 

[Espy]

No worries man, sorry you feel that way. Go ahead and get the thread back on topic. If you want to talk more feel free to pm me.

 

[Necronic]

 

[GasBandit]

 

[PatrThom]

I would like to take a moment to relate that a couple of months ago, one of my coworkers looked over my shoulder during breaktime at one of our discussions (on income/class, I think), and then sat down to open up a browser on a neighboring computer to read it for himself. After about 10-15 minutes, he commented to me that he was amazed that we were discussing things in a startlingly genuine, intellectual, and civil manner, and that he was just not used to seeing that on the Internet. I told him that's how we are on pretty much everything.

He still didn't join, though. At least, not that I know of.

--Patrick

 

[Ravenpoe]

I would like to take a moment to relate that a couple of months ago, one of my coworkers looked over my shoulder during breaktime at one of our discussions (on income/class, I think), and then sat down to open up a browser on a neighboring computer to read it for himself. After about 10-15 minutes, he commented to me that he was amazed that we were discussing things in a startlingly genuine, intellectual, and civil manner, and that he was just not used to seeing that on the Internet. I told him that's how we are on pretty much everything.

He still didn't join, though. At least, not that I know of.

--Patrick

Just wait until he sees a discussion on steak!

 

[SpecialKO]

And say what you will about JCM - he had some indefensible positions, but when he told me that Yugioh had more artistic merit than Michelangelo's David, he spent the next 20 pages of the thread explaining why.

Ah, memories.[DOUBLEPOST=1409965634,1409965594][/DOUBLEPOST]No one could pull a wall-o'-text-and-quotes like JCM.

 

[GasBandit]

Argentinian policeman jumps on a vehicle, fakes injury, and blames the driver.

 

[PatrThom]

Well, it's a good thing that stuff like that only happens in Argentina.

--Patrick

 

[PatrThom]

Obviously one must be very careful about what they choose as a model for real life application from science fiction, especially so from Heinlein - he had some screws loose that came progressively looser as he aged in regards to certain things, most notably sex.

Too bad you missed out on your chance to own a piece of history.

--Patrick

 

[Necronic]

Is ANYONE actually against stopping the funding to these places?

 

[GasBandit]

Is ANYONE actually against stopping the funding to these places?

Is there actually public funding going to the for-profit colleges? Federally guaranteed loans don't quite count.

 

[Necronic]

For all intents and purposes, yes there is and yes they do. The money doesn't go directly ffrom the government to the university, but the federal guarantee means that loans that normally would not be written are actually written. This has value. This is like me buying a house with you as a cosigner, credit has value. Its particularly atrocious in this setting because these schools have phenomenally high default rates. We're talking 25+%. So of the 250+ billion some odd dollars of student loan money that goes to for profit universities, 60 bil or so of that will end up in default, meaning it is a direct loss to the government. Its even more fucked up because they are so inordinately expensive compared to accredited schools and have such low graduation rates.

So. You know. That sucks.

ed: In a way this is seems to fall in line with the whole "moral hazard" issue. There is no motivation for these schools to create people with marketable skills (or for banks who loan to them). With the government providing a safety net people play as reckless as possible and pocket everything they can.

Scum.