Gay Marriage Speech

[Dave]

I realize that there's already a thread on gay marriage rights, but I just came upon this speech from Senator Savino of New York. It's a speech everyone should hear no matter what side of the aisle they are on in this issue. Amazing and awesome speech.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCFFxidhcy0[/ame]

 

[Chibibar]

I realize that there's already a thread on gay marriage rights, but I just came upon this speech from Senator Savino of New York. It's a speech everyone should hear no matter what side of the aisle they are on in this issue. Amazing and awesome speech.

THAT IS AWESOME!

She pretty much state what is my view in all this. The government give unquestionable rights to married couples and thus every citizen should have access to the same right.

I love it when she said that the bill does not alter the religious group. They STILL have the right to deny any marriages they wish. This is a good point to make.

 

[SpecialKO]

Pity it didn't help that day.

 

[Chibibar]

Pity it didn't help that day.

probably because it is going in one ear and out another without actually process what she is trying to say.

 

[SpecialKO]

Pity it didn't help that day.

probably because it is going in one ear and out another without actually process what she is trying to say.[/QUOTE]

Probably also that a significant number of the upstaters in the NYS Senate are afraid of being "Hoffman-ed" out of office and don't want to stick their necks out for gay marriage.

 

[Chibibar]

Pity it didn't help that day.

probably because it is going in one ear and out another without actually process what she is trying to say.[/QUOTE]

Probably also that a significant number of the upstaters in the NYS Senate are afraid of being "Hoffman-ed" out of office and don't want to stick their necks out for gay marriage.[/QUOTE]

so much for equality

just a note for some newer people: I have no qualms people are against same sex marriage due to their religious view. It is your religion and that is your right. I just wish the public would realize that they (the public pressure their elected officials) are suppressing other people's right. The same rights given to anyone else automatically. If every single wedded couple have to do the same thing then so be it, but since they don't, that needs to change.

(jumps off his soapbox)

 

[Green_Lantern]

Pity it didn't help that day.

probably because it is going in one ear and out another without actually process what she is trying to say.[/QUOTE]

Probably also that a significant number of the upstaters in the NYS Senate are afraid of being "Hoffman-ed" out of office and don't want to stick their necks out for gay marriage.[/QUOTE]

so much for equality

just a note for some newer people: I have no qualms people are against same sex marriage due to their religious view. It is your religion and that is your right. I just wish the public would realize that they (the public pressure their elected officials) are suppressing other people's right. The same rights given to anyone else automatically. If every single wedded couple have to do the same thing then so be it, but since they don't, that needs to change.

(jumps off his soapbox)[/QUOTE]

(Jumps on the soapbox)

Going to watch the video later, just wanted to post this... why are people so dense about religious influence? HOW can some actually think that another person believes "That is wrong, sinfull and bad, but they have the right to do it"? In what kind of bizarre universe those people live where people can think that something is wrong but not enough to "be okay to others", the people that advocate your stance are either not sure or are just preteding to following that religious belief.

 

[Chibibar]

What do you mean by "dense about religious influence"? I know that our government (the U.S.) actually founded on religious belief but there is a separation of church and state law in place.

I know that some religious belief states that same sex relation is a sin, but a lot of things we do normally is consider a sin.

take Divorce for example. Many Old school Catholics believe that divorce is a sin and yet we allow that in the country (because other belief said it is ok and not a sin) so why can't same sex have the same view?

 

[Green_Lantern]

What do you mean by "dense about religious influence"? I know that our government (the U.S.) actually founded on religious belief but there is a separation of church and state law in place.

I know that some religious belief states that same sex relation is a sin, but a lot of things we do normally is consider a sin.

take Divorce for example. Many Old school Catholics believe that divorce is a sin and yet we allow that in the country (because other belief said it is ok and not a sin) so why can't same sex have the same view?

See the bit about "not being sure or pretending to follow they religious belief" (and add to that "being too lazy to care"). I am saying that someone can't actually think that something is truly wrong and be okay with other people doing it, if they do is likely because they aren't so sure that the thing is completely wrong, and think think it is a less desirable than other alternatives (like amputation when compared with death), but not truly wrong as something that can't be accepted...

Divorce got popular enough to the Catholic Church don't attacks it as much and the average person is likely to think that is something tragic rather than something wrong.

 

[Chibibar]

What do you mean by "dense about religious influence"? I know that our government (the U.S.) actually founded on religious belief but there is a separation of church and state law in place.

I know that some religious belief states that same sex relation is a sin, but a lot of things we do normally is consider a sin.

take Divorce for example. Many Old school Catholics believe that divorce is a sin and yet we allow that in the country (because other belief said it is ok and not a sin) so why can't same sex have the same view?

See the bit about "not being sure or pretending to follow they religious belief" (and add to that "being too lazy to care"). I am saying that someone can't actually think that something is truly wrong and be okay with other people doing it, if they do is likely because they aren't so sure that the thing is completely wrong, and think think it is a less desirable than other alternatives (like amputation when compared with death), but not truly wrong as something that can't be accepted...

Divorce got popular enough to the Catholic Church don't attacks it as much and the average person is likely to think that is something tragic rather than something wrong.[/QUOTE]

Ah, I see. I guess you are saying if someone said it is ok even if their religion said it is wrong, might question the religion "is it truly wrong?"

But I thought those same people also have a rule of "don't judge thy neighbor" or something of that sort isn't it? I mean people who doesn't believe in X religion is consider to be wrong and sinful but those are tolerated too.

 

[makare]

Alot of things are considered to be morally wrong, by many people for many different reasons, but they are not disallowed by law.

Allowing religious views as a basis for giving or withholding rights is contrary to the US principal of freedom. It is not possible for a person to withhold rights on religious grounds and still maintain to support freedom as the US ideal. I don't excuse those people just because they are maintaining their religious view of what is right, it is still contrary to the Law of the Land.

 

[Seraphyn]

I think we covered this many a time already, but as always I really really don't get the legal/political objections to gay marriage. Since religion and state are supposed to be separate, does this not ensure everyone be treated the same? So how come two people of good state of mind cannot be wed, while two others can?

Religious objections I get, hell I can even understand how people can feel uncomfortable when confronted with gays, but from an objective view I cannot understand why they are being treated like lesser people.

 

[Chibibar]

I think we covered this many a time already, but as always I really really don't get the legal/political objections to gay marriage. Since religion and state are supposed to be separate, does this not ensure everyone be treated the same? So how come two people of good state of mind cannot be wed, while two others can?

Religious objections I get, hell I can even understand how people can feel uncomfortable when confronted with gays, but from an objective view I cannot understand why they are being treated like lesser people.

the problem is that there isn't any political objection OTHER than the lobby/fundraisers for the senators/house of rep are from the people who are against it. "If you wanna run for office again, you do as I say blah blah blah" mentality.

All this time, I have been fighting for the equal right under the government laws. The government give its citizen certain rights as wedded couple and should give everyone else right.

 

[Cuyval Dar]

ITT: Politician makes pretty darn good speech, GL irrationally hates on religion.

 

[Shawn]

Religion is flawed. They say "love everyone" but what they mean is "love those who think like you".
That is all.

 

[Denbrought]

I'm not really caught up with the Jedi religion though, what do they say about the LGBT community?

If I recall correctly, jedis aren't allowed to love/attach themselves to anybody soooo... Asexuality for everyone!

 

[strawman]

I realize that there's already a thread on gay marriage rights

 

[bhamv3]

I'm not really caught up with the Jedi religion though, what do they say about the LGBT community?

If I recall correctly, jedis aren't allowed to love/attach themselves to anybody soooo... Asexuality for everyone![/QUOTE]

Yeah, that one time this young Jedi started having sex, he ended up wearing black and slaughtering younglings and purging Jedi and shit. They learned their lesson after that. Sex and Jedi just don't mix, man.

 

[Hailey Knight]

Younglings... goddamn, what a stupid word... Ugh, it's too early in the morning to read or hear the word younglings.

 

[Bowielee]

I'm not really caught up with the Jedi religion though, what do they say about the LGBT community?

If I recall correctly, jedis aren't allowed to love/attach themselves to anybody soooo... Asexuality for everyone![/quote]

Yeah, that one time this young Jedi started having sex, he ended up wearing black and slaughtering younglings and purging Jedi and shit. They learned their lesson after that. Sex and Jedi just don't mix, man.[/QUOTE]

/nerdglasses on

The act of disallowing romantic relationships in the Jedi order predated Anakin and Padme's relationship.

/nerdglasses off

/looks around

Who was that dork?

 

[Chibibar]

I'm not really caught up with the Jedi religion though, what do they say about the LGBT community?

If I recall correctly, jedis aren't allowed to love/attach themselves to anybody soooo... Asexuality for everyone![/quote]

Yeah, that one time this young Jedi started having sex, he ended up wearing black and slaughtering younglings and purging Jedi and shit. They learned their lesson after that. Sex and Jedi just don't mix, man.[/QUOTE]

/nerdglasses on

The act of disallowing romantic relationships in the Jedi order predated Anakin and Padme's relationship.

/nerdglasses off

/looks around

Who was that dork?[/QUOTE]
That is true, but Anakin didn't help to "reform" that rules. He kinda reinforce it by going nuts after all and thus the masters go "see? see? this is why no romantic relationship in the order"

 

[Hailey Knight]

I'm not really caught up with the Jedi religion though, what do they say about the LGBT community?

If I recall correctly, jedis aren't allowed to love/attach themselves to anybody soooo... Asexuality for everyone![/quote]

Yeah, that one time this young Jedi started having sex, he ended up wearing black and slaughtering younglings and purging Jedi and shit. They learned their lesson after that. Sex and Jedi just don't mix, man.[/QUOTE]

/nerdglasses on

The act of disallowing romantic relationships in the Jedi order predated Anakin and Padme's relationship.

/nerdglasses off

/looks around

Who was that dork?[/QUOTE]
That is true, but Anakin didn't help to "reform" that rules. He kinda reinforce it by going nuts after all and thus the masters go "see? see? this is why no romantic relationship in the order" [/QUOTE]

There really weren't any rules at that point, were there? The Jedi order was pretty much destroyed. Later in EU, Luke's trainees are allowed to have relationships and such, so I've heard.

 

[Le Quack]

What do you mean by "dense about religious influence"? I know that our government (the U.S.) actually founded on religious belief but there is a separation of church and state law in place.

I know that some religious belief states that same sex relation is a sin, but a lot of things we do normally is consider a sin.

take Divorce for example. Many Old school Catholics believe that divorce is a sin and yet we allow that in the country (because other belief said it is ok and not a sin) so why can't same sex have the same view?

The United States was NOT founded on religious beliefs.

 

[AshburnerX]

What do you mean by "dense about religious influence"? I know that our government (the U.S.) actually founded on religious belief but there is a separation of church and state law in place.

I know that some religious belief states that same sex relation is a sin, but a lot of things we do normally is consider a sin.

take Divorce for example. Many Old school Catholics believe that divorce is a sin and yet we allow that in the country (because other belief said it is ok and not a sin) so why can't same sex have the same view?

The United States was NOT founded on religious beliefs.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. It was founded by Religious People, not on religious ideals.

 

[Cuyval Dar]

I'm inclined to disagree with LeQuack, not because I think that he's necessarily wrong, but on general principle.

 

[Green_Lantern]

ITT: Politician makes pretty darn good speech, GL irrationally hates on religion.

Fucking tired of having to deal with a world where I the crazy one because I don't think that death is the greatest thing ever, or that some invisible bearded man in the sky is all powerfull and does everything to help, but only in a way that we can't tell if he is real or not. I tired of staying quiet while I see everyone creating ilusions around themselves because they are too cowards to deal with the reality, and I am tired of this cold and unforgiving reality that is just cruel and pointless and just a slow path to heaven-less oblivion, and yet I can't say the truth or everyone will hate me because they are too weak to get out of they dream worlds. That is my irrationality to you.

 

[Cuyval Dar]

No one is silencing your right to express your views, however, YOU are the one who is mocking the views and beliefs of others. I'll give you one guess as to who in this thread is in the wrong.

 

[Cuyval Dar]

ITT: Politician makes pretty darn good speech, GL irrationally hates on religion.

Fucking tired of having to deal with a world where I the crazy one because I don't think that death is the greatest thing ever, or that some invisible bearded man in the sky is all powerfull and does everything to help, but only in a way that we can't tell if he is real or not. I tired of staying quiet while I see everyone creating ilusions around themselves because they are too cowards to deal with the reality, and I am tired of this cold and unforgiving reality that is just cruel and pointless and just a slow path to heaven-less oblivion, and yet I can't say the truth or everyone will hate me because they are too weak to get out of they dream worlds. That is my irrationality to you.[/QUOTE]

See. It's the way you say this stuff that makes other people react that way here. It makes you seem no better than teh ones you condemn for condemning you. And your "the truth" is just your belief of it. I have mine, and it's not really similar to yours.

It's also how you only respond to Cuyvar's comment and NOT the rest above it that were actually legitimate comments. It makes it completely pointless to even try to talk to you about this.

Where I come from, guys have it pretty good, not equal equal yet, but they can marry, adopt kids, and so on. You're very jaded because of your personal past but that doesn't mean every gay man or woman is treated just as bad as you were.

Try being me! Really, now there's a hoot!

---------- Post added at 10:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:18 PM ----------

No one is silencing your right to express your views, however, YOU are the one who is mocking the views and beliefs of others.

Exactly.[/QUOTE]

This. A thousand times this.
Honestly, I would rather listen to LeQuack rant about how the cops are out to get him, rather than Green Lantern whining about how badly he has been treated (all GLBT are obviously treated the same way).

 

[Chibibar]

What do you mean by "dense about religious influence"? I know that our government (the U.S.) actually founded on religious belief but there is a separation of church and state law in place.

I know that some religious belief states that same sex relation is a sin, but a lot of things we do normally is consider a sin.

take Divorce for example. Many Old school Catholics believe that divorce is a sin and yet we allow that in the country (because other belief said it is ok and not a sin) so why can't same sex have the same view?

The United States was NOT founded on religious beliefs.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. It was founded by Religious People, not on religious ideals.[/QUOTE]

It is hard to see much of a difference when our President (on both side) praise God and such even our money has "in God we Trust"

 

[AshburnerX]

What do you mean by "dense about religious influence"? I know that our government (the U.S.) actually founded on religious belief but there is a separation of church and state law in place.

I know that some religious belief states that same sex relation is a sin, but a lot of things we do normally is consider a sin.

take Divorce for example. Many Old school Catholics believe that divorce is a sin and yet we allow that in the country (because other belief said it is ok and not a sin) so why can't same sex have the same view?

The United States was NOT founded on religious beliefs.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. It was founded by Religious People, not on religious ideals.[/QUOTE]

It is hard to see much of a difference when our President (on both side) praise God and such even our money has "in God we Trust"[/QUOTE]

In God we Trust was removed from money a long time ago and then put back on very recently (during the fearmongering Bush administration.) It'll be removed again as soon as someone makes noise about it.

 

[strawman]

In God we Trust was removed from money a long time ago and then put back on very recently (during the fearmongering Bush administration.) It'll be removed again as soon as someone makes noise about it.

I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about.

http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.shtml

"In God We Trust" has been the national motto of the USA since 1956.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_We_Trust

Perhaps you've been listening to some fanatic or another with an axe to grind.

I'm not interested in starting a new thread, as I have nothing more to say on the subject, but if you or someone else wants to discuss this particular topic further I suggest you create a new thread.

 

[makare]

In God we Trust was removed from money a long time ago and then put back on very recently (during the fearmongering Bush administration.) It'll be removed again as soon as someone makes noise about it.

I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about.

[/QUOTE]

Just wishful thinking I guess.

 

[Cuyval Dar]

Honestly, I don't think that Ash has any clue what he says in this subforum.

 

[Chibibar]

While I totally understand that the U.S. is not a specific "religious" country, the major part of the government are heavily influence by the Christian/Catholic base religion (more than others possibly. Muslim might be a close 3rd now in terms of actually getting people INTO office.)

Even some court houses still have 10 commandment on their property (except earlier this year I believe it was finally remove from a federal court house) Even in our court system we "swore to tell the truth, and nothing but the truth so help you God" (what if you are atheist?)

While it is my wishful thinking that the people can separate themselves from religion and government, I had hope that logic would dictate that even if your personal belief say it is wrong. It is not *universally* wrong.

Note: *universally* means the world as a whole. There are several religious group and non-religious group who accepts same-sex couple as normal citizens. Other than religion, there is no society negative impact of having the same sex couple in your area. (my opinion)

 

[Cajungal]

^I'm with you. I don't really care, honestly. To me, it's always spoken more to the history of our country. The simple fact is that we were founded by people who were mostly Christian. That doesn't have anything to do with my own beliefs. If you don't like it, try not staring at your money. I can't imagine caring even if I stopped believing in the idea of a god all-together.