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Gender Issues Thread

#1

figmentPez

figmentPez

Making a thread to discuss gender issues. Primarily because the rights, and lives, of transgender people are under attack, but it seems like general discussions of feminism and other gender issues would fit here as well.

Recently in Oklahoma a non-binary teen, Nex Benedict, was beaten in a school bathroom to the point where they couldn't walk. They died the next day, most likely because of the injuries they sustained. Police are trying to claim that the death was not the result of the fight at the school, but the final medical report has not come out yet.

State senator Tom Woods said "we're a Republican state ... I represent a majority that doesn't want that filth in Oklahoma".



A child was beaten to death, and the response from political leaders was to call that child filth.


#2

figmentPez

figmentPez

Nex Benedict's mom raises doubts about police statements: It's a "big cover"


#3

figmentPez

figmentPez

This is bodycam footage from an officer to talked with Nex Benedict and their mother when Nex was receiving medical care.



The TL;DW is that Nex says they was corned in the bathroom by three girls who had been bullying her for a month, but before that she didn't know their names or have any interaction with to start the bullying. The three took issue with how Nex dresses and were being agressive towards them. Nex splashed them with water from a water bottle, and then the three attacked her, ultimately beating her until she blacked out.

The officer tries to talk Nex's mother out of filing any charges, because he claims that Nex would be charged with assault for splashing the water.

DON'T TALK TO THE COPS! It would have been better for Nex if they'd talked to a lawyer, and had the lawyer talk to the police.


#4

General Specific

General Specific

I am so enraged by this.

I'm already afraid to go to Florida and my own state is trying to pass similar public bathroom laws. The three girls need to be arrested immediately. Anything less is painting a giant target on every other LGBTQ+ person everywhere, especially youth.


#5

figmentPez

figmentPez



Article: Fact Checked: New Problematic "Finnish Study" Actually Shows Trans Care Saves Lives

I don't think I can do a good job properly summarizing all the points of the article, but the short version is that transphobes are touting a new study as proving that gender-affirming care for children is not lifesaving, but there are some huge problems with how those conclusions were reached. A couple of examples: The study was not solely of teens (the mean age was 19, so this included a lot of adults as well), and the study was not solely of trans individuals, since it included an unknown number of people who fall under the outdated diagnosis of "gender identity disorder" but who are not transgender.


#6

figmentPez

figmentPez

World's Largest Psych Association Passes Policy Supporting Trans Youth Care By Massive Margin

"The policy, which passed 153-9, is the strongest yet from the organization in support of gender-affirming care and represents a major consensus among leading psychologists on the importance of gender-affirming care for youth and adults."


#7

MindDetective

MindDetective

Damn intellectual elite, being all compassionate and accepting of people.


#8

figmentPez

figmentPez

Well, this is scary, "In a just released legal filing, Attorney General Ken Paxton of Texas is demanding full names, addresses of trans members in Texas from PFLAG national, as well as 'contingency plans' around new anti-trans laws."
...
" The demands include: - Complete names - Social Security Numbers - Dates of Birth - Street and mailing addresses - Home, cell, and business phone numbers - Email addresses "

"Retaliation": Texas AG Paxton Demands PFLAG Provide Names, Addresses Of Trans Members


#9

Bubble181

Bubble181

For their own safety, perhaps they should wear a clear symbol pinned to their sleeve or chest at all times, too. Not too threatening, and not too obvious. Maybe something stylish, like a yellow star.


#10

figmentPez

figmentPez

Bubble181 said:
For their own safety, perhaps they should wear a clear symbol pinned to their sleeve or chest at all times, too. Not too threatening, and not too obvious. Maybe something stylish, like a yellow star.
Click to expand...
Pink triangle would be a more apt reference.


#11

Bubble181

Bubble181

figmentPez said:
Pink triangle would be a more apt reference.
Click to expand...
Yes, but I didn't think people would get the reference.


#12

PatrThom

PatrThom

Bubble181 said:
Yes, but I didn't think people would get the reference.
Click to expand...
The pink triangle is far more common in the USA than you might think.
...unless that's just because I've randomly happened to seen it so often in my lifetime.

--Patrick


#13

figmentPez

figmentPez

The Oklahoma Superintendent of Public Instruction, and formerly the Oklahoma Secretary of Eduction, Ryan Walters has held a fund raiser at the home of a man who is barred from being a substitute teacher or bus driver, and who is an "influencer" who has made "a video where he incited violence against transgender students, urging his daughters to 'kick the shit' out of them if encountered in the bathroom."

Oklahoma superintendent’s ties to anti-trans influencer spark outrage in wake of Nex Benedict’s death

Reminder that Oklahoma is where non-binary teen Nex Benedict was beaten in a school bathroom by a group of teen girls, and later died, likely as a result of those injuries.


#14

figmentPez

figmentPez

Missouri GOP bill would require teachers to register as sex offenders if they support trans students

The proposed law would make it a Class E felony to “contribute” to the social transition of transgender youth.

“A person commits the offense of contributing to social transition if the person is acting in his or her official capacity as a teacher or school counselor and the person provides support, regardless of whether the support is material, information, or other resources to a child regarding social transition,” Gragg’s bill states.


#15

PatrThom

PatrThom

figmentPez said:
Missouri GOP bill would require teachers to register as sex offenders if they support trans students
Click to expand...
Many articles are stating that they don't expect the bill to make it all the way to becoming a law, but the sheer amount of antipathy on display by even proposing it in the first place...yeesh.

--Patrick


#16

figmentPez

figmentPez

Two different sources for this video, hopefully one or the other will work for most people. Walter Masterson speaking before Owasso County school board in Oklahoma.





#17

mikerc

mikerc



"I don't know why I said that". Oh don't worry, we know why you said that.


#18

figmentPez

figmentPez

Kansas lawmakers’ effort to override governor’s veto of gender-affirming care ban fails

"Kansas’ Republican-controlled Senate on Monday night successfully voted 27-13 to override Kelly’s veto. But, with the Republican-controlled state House voting 82-43, proponents of the bill were just two votes shy of the two-thirds majority needed to enact the ban."


#19

Bubble181

Bubble181

I can understand what they mean and I'm glad for those two votes (though it's terrible that margin was only two votes instead of 125), a headline about overriding a veto for a ban is... Starting to get confusing.


#20

GasBandit

GasBandit

Yeah, a little confusing, but good result, albeit slim as you say.


#21

GasBandit

GasBandit

A federal appeals court ruled that state healthcare plans must cover gender-affirming surgeries. State officials in West Virginia and North Carolina had argued that their policies were based on “legitimate government interests,” such as cost concerns, rather than bias. The court, however, ruled that the denial of some health care services via government-sponsored insurance for transgender people was discriminatory. (Associated Press / Washington Post / Axios)


#22

GasBandit

GasBandit

A federal judge ruled that Florida could not prohibit transgender minors from receiving gender-affirming care. Judge Robert Hinkle said the state’s policies were “unconstitutional” because “gender identity is real” and that a “widely accepted standard of care” includes puberty blockers and hormone treatments. Hinkle added that “transgender opponents are of course free to hold their beliefs, but they are not free to discriminate against transgender individuals just for being transgender.” (Associated Press / ABC News / New York Times)


#23

figmentPez

figmentPez

Republicans want to arrest women who cut their hair 1.png


12K likes on a post calling short hair on women criminal.


#24

Vrii

Vrii

Nah, it's worse than that. It's 12k likes on an incel-coded post calling short-haired females criminals.

Because they only exist to please the incels' eyes.


#25

Bubble181

Bubble181

I'm not always a fan of short hair/pixie cuts, but she looks better with it short, in my opinion.

Also, I don't give a rat's ass about how anyone else wants to wear their hair.


#26

Tinwhistler

Tinwhistler

Like everyone, I have opinions on what looks good and what doesn't look good.

But my opinion on what constitutes "fuckable" matters exactly 0% to anyone that I'm not, you know, fucking. That's the problem with so many people in the world--they think that because they don't like something, or something isn't attractive to them, or whatever, the world needs to change to accommodate them. You know, instead of just saying to themselves "Hmm...don't much care for that..." and then moving on with their lives.


#27

Krisken

Krisken

Hahaha, that girl looks like my wife in the second pic.


#28

MindDetective

MindDetective

I loooove pixie cuts in general. Like Tin, I don't feel the need to comment on any specific person. My opinion does not matter. But in the context of this conversation, it is worth noting that there ARE men that like that style. Demanding the world cater to your whims is just bonkers.


#29

@Li3n

@Li3n

I like how you guys think their issue is not finding it attractive, as opposed to them freaking out about what they think finding short hair attractive implies about someone's sexuality...


#30

Krisken

Krisken

I don't think it implies sexuality, it shows their desire to dictate and punish norms.


#31

Bubble181

Bubble181

MindDetective said:
I loooove pixie cuts in general. Like Tin, I don't feel the need to comment on any specific person. My opinion does not matter. But in the context of this conversation, it is worth noting that there ARE men that like that style. Demanding the world cater to your whims is just bonkers.
Click to expand...
If you like short hair, you're obviously a closet gay.
Maybe it's best if all women just cover up their hair you avoid impure thoughts? Some sort of scarf around the head would avoid these issues and leave women the liberty to have the hair style their men approve of.


#32

MindDetective

MindDetective

Bubble181 said:
If you like short hair, you're obviously a closet gay.
Maybe it's best if all women just cover up their hair you avoid impure thoughts? Some sort of scarf around the head would avoid these issues and leave women the liberty to have the hair style their men approve of.
Click to expand...
I like short hair AND boobs!


#33

General Specific

General Specific

I like boobs so much, I grew my own!


#34

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

You know, it's funny. I've dated several girls who had relatively long hair when we started dating. But as the relationship progressed, I would sometimes opine about how much shampoo I save by having short hair (or no hair, when I'm shaved bald).

Not every girl I've dated, but quite a number of them wind up with shorter hair along the way. I never push them, but it does seem to be a strange pattern in my dating history. One ex consistently keeps her hair close to shaved now on a regular basis.

(And I always thought each ex was still attractive with long or short hair. The only downside is less playful hairpulling in the bedroom.)


#35

bhamv3

bhamv3

While I do have personal preferences regarding hairstyles, I am of the opinion that every hairstyle can be hot.

See this? This is Natalie Portman with no hair. Still beautiful.

1718325362408.jpeg


#36

PatrThom

PatrThom

Hey now let's not forget about Persis Khambatta.

--Patrick


#37

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

So I don't want to interrupt all the short hair is attractive conversation, but the point was that it doesn't matter what anyone, including you, thinks is attractive. "This person is wrong because actually that's hot" is not a rebuttal, that person is just wrong, period, because no one is obligated to appear or present the way you or anyone else deems 'hot'.

Ok, soapbox over, you can go back to posting pics of cute haircuts.


#38

Krisken

Krisken

Thank you, @Ravenpoe , 100% that.


#39

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Ravenpoe said:
So I don't want to interrupt all the short hair is attractive conversation, but the point was that it doesn't matter what anyone, including you, thinks is attractive. "This person is wrong because actually that's hot" is not a rebuttal, that person is just wrong, period, because no one is obligated to appear or present the way you or anyone else deems 'hot'.

Ok, soapbox over, you can go back to posting pics of cute haircuts.
Click to expand...
Oh yeah, I thought that went without saying. The original asshole who posted the comparison has zero right to say what women can and can't do with their hair.


#40

Tinwhistler

Tinwhistler

Ravenpoe said:
So I don't want to interrupt all the short hair is attractive conversation, but the point was that it doesn't matter what anyone, including you, thinks is attractive. "This person is wrong because actually that's hot" is not a rebuttal, that person is just wrong, period, because no one is obligated to appear or present the way you or anyone else deems 'hot'.

Ok, soapbox over, you can go back to posting pics of cute haircuts.
Click to expand...
Yup. That was my same point, essentially.


#41

D

Dubyamn

Why is it that every INCEL I've ever heard of has made a very voluntary and specific choice to be celibate by choosing to be weird angry repulsive creatures? Shouldn’t they just be called VOLCELs?


#42

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Dubyamn said:
Why is it that every INCEL I've ever heard of has made a very voluntary and specific choice to be celibate by choosing to be weird angry repulsive creatures? Shouldn’t they just be called VOLCELs?
Click to expand...
Because incels, by definition, aren't single by choice. "Incel" is short for "involuntary celibate." As in, they're not choosing to be single but blaming everyone else for it.

Which says everything about their thinking. God forbid they try even a modicum of self-reflection to realize "Oh, I might be the problem here."


#43

PatrThom

PatrThom

Dubyamn said:
Why is it that every INCEL I've ever heard of has made a very voluntary and specific choice to be celibate by choosing to be weird angry repulsive creatures? Shouldn’t they just be called VOLCELs?
Click to expand...
They can only be called an "incel" if they're coming from the reasoning that they deserve/are owed having someone get into their pants, otherwise they're just "unfuckable."

--Patrick


#44

D

Dubyamn

ThatNickGuy said:
Because incels, by definition, aren't single by choice. "Incel" is short for "involuntary celibate." As in, they're not choosing to be single but blaming everyone else for it.

Which says everything about their thinking. God forbid they try even a modicum of self-reflection to realize "Oh, I might be the problem here."
Click to expand...
I understand their claim but I don’t believe their claim is correct. Like I said everyone of them voluntarily became the weird off putting creatures they are.


#45

PatrThom

PatrThom

www.nbcnews.com

Michigan outlaws the 'gay and trans panic defense' in criminal trials

The law prohibits using a victim’s sexuality or gender identity as justification for criminal action.
www.nbcnews.com www.nbcnews.com
Michigan no longer allows "I only overreacted because they were gay" as a legal defense.
Good.

--Patrick


#46

blotsfan

blotsfan

It's pretty crazy how long those laws have stuck around. Even in dark blue New York those weren't banned until just a few years ago.


#47

General Specific

General Specific

Anywhere that still has those laws must logically allow the opposite argument.

"I'm sorry, officer! I was chatting with him at the bar and he mentioned his girlfriend and since 99% off all mass shootings have been perpetrated by straight people, I feared for my life! I panicked and felt I had to kill him!"


#48

PatrThom

PatrThom

www.palmbeachpost.com

This Florida college is trashing LGBTQ+, gender and diversity books. What we know

Students at New College of Florida were shocked Tuesday to see a large dumpster filled with books, many of them on LGBTQ+ and gender studies topics.
www.palmbeachpost.com
New College spokesperson Nathan March said, after the Sarasota Herald-Tribune reported on the book dump, that the college undertook a routine "weeding" of its campus library and many of these also were damaged by flooding during Tropical Storm Debby. Video of the dumpster did show some books with water damage. The GDC books were removed because the gender studies program was abolished by the new board of trustees last year. They were placed behind the library, near the dumpster.
Click to expand...
--Patrick


#49

figmentPez

figmentPez

Texas DPS enacts policy refusing court-ordered gender marker changes, will create database of marker change requests

"According to a Texas Department of Public Safety internal email, a copy of which was sent to Dallas Voice through a local attorney, DPS has — unilaterally and without any public notice — decided to stop amending gender markers on Texas driver licenses and state ID cards.

"The email also indicates that the DPS will create a database of all individuals who request to have the gender marker on their license or ID changed."

Texas DPS is halting gender changes on drivers licenses and creating a registry of people requ...jpg

Texas DPS is halting gender changes on drivers licenses and creating a registry of people requ...jpg


#50

PatrThom

PatrThom

"This email address is for internal reporting only and should not be shared with customers."
Well I know what's going to happen next.

--Patrick


#51

PatrThom

PatrThom

Probably not what people expect this thread to be about, but it is still an issue of gender, and so it gets posted here.
When I saw it last week I had to go find some corroborating stories, because I couldn't believe it wasn't satire.

www.theguardian.com

‘Frightening’ Taliban law bans women from speaking in public

New vice and virtue restrictions offer ‘a distressing vision of Afghanistan’s future’, says UN
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
The Taliban published a host of new “vice and virtue” laws last week, approved by their supreme leader Hibatullah Akhundzada, which state that women must completely veil their bodies – including their faces – in thick clothing at all times in public to avoid leading men into temptation and vice.
Women’s voices are also deemed to be potential instruments of vice and so will not be allowed to be heard in public under the new restrictions. Women must also not be heard singing or reading aloud, even from inside their houses.
[...]
From now on, Afghan women are also not allowed to look directly at men they are not related to by blood or marriage, and taxi drivers will be punished if they agree to drive a woman who is without a suitable male escort.
Click to expand...
--Patrick


#52

figmentPez

figmentPez

PatrThom said:
Probably not what people expect this thread to be about, but it is still an issue of gender, and so it gets posted here.
Click to expand...
It's definitely the type of thing I was thinking about when I made the thread.

Wait? PatrThom and I agree about our interpretation of something ambiguous? Truly the end of days is upon us.


#53

PatrThom

PatrThom

figmentPez said:
Truly the end of days is upon us.
Click to expand...
No it isn't.

--Patrick


#54

Dave

Dave

www.yahoo.com

German woman given harsher sentence than rapist for calling him ‘pig’

A woman in Germany has been given a harsher sentence than a convicted rapist after she was found guilty of defaming him.
www.yahoo.com www.yahoo.com


#55

figmentPez

figmentPez

Schools in the South Western School District of Pennsylvania are adding windows into the restrooms.

"Parents are left feeling 'uncomfortable' after a Central PA school board decided to make some alterations to a middle school bathroom. In August, the South Western School Board approved an $8,700 project to 'increase oversight of wash area and enhance stall privacy.' However, photos of that construction project have circulated the internet, leaving some parents and students 'uncomfortable' and 'horrified'. "

Pennsylvania school cuts window into school bathroom.jpg


How the hell does this "enhance stall privacy"?

Why do they feel the need to spy on students using the bathroom? Because this is a gender inclusive bathroom, and conservatives obsessed with the genitals of teens want to spy on transgender students.


#56

Krisken

Krisken

Fucking weirdo perverts.


#57

figmentPez

figmentPez

figmentPez said:
Schools in the South Western School District of Pennsylvania are adding windows into the restrooms.

"Parents are left feeling 'uncomfortable' after a Central PA school board decided to make some alterations to a middle school bathroom. In August, the South Western School Board approved an $8,700 project to 'increase oversight of wash area and enhance stall privacy.' However, photos of that construction project have circulated the internet, leaving some parents and students 'uncomfortable' and 'horrified'. "

View attachment 49586

How the hell does this "enhance stall privacy"?

Why do they feel the need to spy on students using the bathroom? Because this is a gender inclusive bathroom, and conservatives obsessed with the genitals of teens want to spy on transgender students.
Click to expand...
School district boards up ‘surveillance windows’ it put in gender-neutral bathrooms

"A Pennsylvania school district has reversed course and boarded up window openings it recently installed that allowed people in a middle school hallway to peer into two gender-neutral-designated bathrooms, the superintendent said Friday.

"The two windows were installed in recent weeks following a vote in August of the South Western School District’s conservative-majority school board, a move the board president said was designed to monitor and prevent misbehavior. Such openings weren’t installed in any of the school’s non-gender-neutral bathrooms."

....

"the Evening Sun reported that the windows were installed based on guidance from a right-wing, anti-LGBTQ+ law firm. At its August meeting, the school board said it had approved the bathroom 'openings' to 'comply with guidance from the Independence Law Center.' "


#58

PatrThom

PatrThom

I suppose the alternative would've been to put windows into ALL bathrooms. So I guess this is...better?

--Patrick


#59

PatrThom

PatrThom

Oh look, it's this guy again:

As someone on bluesky puts it: "That's certainly a strategic choice just one week before the election."

--Patrick


#60

PatrThom

PatrThom

asianews.network

‘Women over 30 would have uteruses removed’; remarks of CPJ leader, novelist get wide attention

On the channel, he also said that he would make it law for “women who are single after 25 years old not to be allowed to marry.”
asianews.network asianews.network
Later, Hyakuta posted an apology on his X account. “I cannot deny that the expressions were too harsh,” he said. “I apologize for those who were offended.”
Click to expand...
"Apology."
[X] Doubt

--Patrick


#61

Dave

Dave

Which is a really weird take considering in the article the issue he's attempting to address is the declining birth rate in Japan. So his idea to combat not enough people having babies...is to prevent people from having babies? Let's not even talk about the fact that the average age of mothers having babies in Japan is OVER 30 and you have a recipe for population disaster. But he is a conservative so you have to remember that he's dumb.


#62

GasBandit

GasBandit

Dave said:
Which is a really weird take considering in the article the issue he's attempting to address is the declining birth rate in Japan. So his idea to combat not enough people having babies...is to prevent people from having babies? Let's not even talk about the fact that the average age of mothers having babies in Japan is OVER 30 and you have a recipe for population disaster. But he is a conservative so you have to remember that he's dumb.
Click to expand...
Perhaps he thought he was leveraging FOMO to coerce women into rushing into child rearing.

I think this is probably his idea of softening/scaling back his actual idea, which was probably something akin to just straight up executing any woman who hadn't had a child by 30. Can't have them thinking they have any use beyond being incubators after all.


#63

D

Dubyamn

Dave said:
Which is a really weird take considering in the article the issue he's attempting to address is the declining birth rate in Japan. So his idea to combat not enough people having babies...is to prevent people from having babies? Let's not even talk about the fact that the average age of mothers having babies in Japan is OVER 30 and you have a recipe for population disaster. But he is a conservative so you have to remember that he's dumb.
Click to expand...
Natalists have exactly one plan for increasing birth rates and that’s to point at women and tell them to have more kids. Any side effects of that are to be ignored along with any course of action that respects women’s civil rights.


#64

blotsfan

blotsfan

The irony is that we’re now reconsidering having more kids because we don’t like the idea of hospitals letting my wife die because she’s pregnant.


#65

@Li3n

@Li3n

PatrThom said:
asianews.network

‘Women over 30 would have uteruses removed’; remarks of CPJ leader, novelist get wide attention

On the channel, he also said that he would make it law for “women who are single after 25 years old not to be allowed to marry.”
asianews.network asianews.network

"Apology."
[X] Doubt

--Patrick
Click to expand...
What, he apologised for using the bad words, isn't that what the problem was ?

It's not like you're supposed to have a problem with punishing women for not being brood mares, that's just common sense.


blotsfan said:
The irony is that we’re now reconsidering having more kids because we don’t like the idea of hospitals letting my wife die because she’s pregnant.
Click to expand...
That's only a temporary problem until they get rid of access to birth control.


#66

Celt Z

Celt Z

Fuck this guy, and any chud that thinks like him. I wasn't able to have a kid until my early 30's. Hell, the youngest mom in Mr. Z and I's friends group had her first child weeks before she turned 27. Most people I know of my generation couldn't afford to start having kids until close to 30 or over. And yes, I know that it's by design: keep women poor and desperate so they have to take slave wages, have no power to complain, and in many cases, tied to trash, loser men. Just because I know it doesn't mean I won't stop complaining about it.


#67

@Li3n

@Li3n

Celt Z said:
And yes, I know that it's by design: keep women poor and desperate so they have to take slave wages, have no power to complain, and in many cases, tied to trash, loser men. Just because I know it doesn't mean I won't stop complaining about it.
Click to expand...
You women and making it all about yourself...

You forget that it's also about cheap labour and racism.


#68

GasBandit

GasBandit

Celt Z said:
Fuck this guy, and any chud that thinks like him. I wasn't able to have a kid until my early 30's. Hell, the youngest mom in Mr. Z and I's friends group had her first child weeks before she turned 27. Most people I know of my generation couldn't afford to start having kids until close to 30 or over. And yes, I know that it's by design: keep women poor and desperate so they have to take slave wages, have no power to complain, and in many cases, tied to trash, loser men. Just because I know it doesn't mean I won't stop complaining about it.
Click to expand...
"We're really more interested in the opinion of the baby you're stubbornly refusing to conceive at this very moment. At least until it is born, then it can fuck right the hell off."


#69

figmentPez

figmentPez

1000002024.png

bsky.app

Erin Reed (@erininthemorning.bsky.social)

Odessa, Texas has voted to pass a transgender bathroom bounty law that applies to PRIVATE bathrooms. This means even in queer spaces. If a cisgender person encounters a transgender person, they can sue them for $10,000 or more. This is the first law of its kind in the nation.
bsky.app bsky.app


#70

Bubble181

Bubble181

I still don't understand why people are so hung up on this.
And I mean both sides, to be clear. There are a billion good ways of skirting this issue without problems.
Plenty of places I visit just have gender neutral bathrooms (or, in case of smaller establishments, just plain one single toilet for everybody).
I've been to places where it's just "stalls on the left, urinals on the right". A guy needs to go #2? Guess you stand in line along with the women.
I've been to places where there's a third single-stall bathroom (sometimes the same as the handicapped one, some separate) for anyone who doesn't feel safe using a multi-person bathroom. Whether that'd apply to the cis person "feeling threatened" or the trans person, not the problem of who put 'm there.

And even in places where it IS still "men/women", if it's busy there'll often be a woman in a stall on the men's side because, well, they're far more often empty, and I've never heard anyone complain or even look weird.

I also sincerely wonder what that law would do to fathers and their daughters (or mothers and sons) going to either bathroom to assist (in the "I can go to the potty but need help wiping/putting on my pants/washing my hands" age category).


#71

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

Bubble181 said:
I still don't understand why people are so hung up on this.
And I mean both sides, to be clear.
Click to expand...
Trans women are the most likely to be assaulted by men in private settings like this. It's as simple as that.



#72

Bubble181

Bubble181

Well, duh.

I mean, I understand why trans (and allies) people care about this type of laws, and their own safety.
What I don't get is why they don't strive/push more towards other solutions than "I want to keep bathrooms clearly segregated into men and women, and then never want to encounter any bigot who thinks I don't belong there". Because, well, that's not going to happen in this generation. Other solutions also tend to be more inclusive towards non-binary or fluid people.


#73

GasBandit

GasBandit

Bubble181 said:
I still don't understand why people are so hung up on this.
And I mean both sides, to be clear. There are a billion good ways of skirting this issue without problems.
Click to expand...
The problems are the point. This is a minority community to "other" and blame. It's by design.

Bubble181 said:
I also sincerely wonder what that law would do...
Click to expand...
Be applied unequally, of course. Just like rich white republicans can get abortions, rape minors, and do all the things they demonize in poor and minority people.


#74

blotsfan

blotsfan

Bubble181 said:
I still don't understand why people are so hung up on this.
And I mean both sides, to be clear. There are a billion good ways of skirting this issue without problems.
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*loud incorrect buzzer sound*


Bubble181 said:
What I don't get is why they don't strive/push more towards other solutions than "I want to keep bathrooms clearly segregated into men and women, and then never want to encounter any bigot who thinks I don't belong there". Because, well, that's not going to happen in this
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So every business should just build more bathrooms? Making all existing bathrooms gender neutral is better but you think the bigots will be cool with that?


#75

mikerc

mikerc

Bubble181 said:
I also sincerely wonder what that law would do to fathers and their daughters (or mothers and sons) going to either bathroom to assist (in the "I can go to the potty but need help wiping/putting on my pants/washing my hands" age category).
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This law does make exception for minors under the age of 12 if accompanied by a parent/guardian of the so-called correct sex of the bathroom (also cops can ignore this law because of fucking course they can). Although there are people 12 and over who have mental or physical disabilities such that they also need assistance who cant get it under this law.

As for gender neutral bathrooms good idea - except this law also states that every bathroom must be clearly labelled as men or women.

And just in case the law wasn't bad enough it also lets people sue someone who "intends to engage in such conduct.". So trans people not only can't enter the bathroom they also presumably can't even enter the building the bathroom is in without putting themselves at risk of being sued.


#76

PatrThom

PatrThom

mikerc said:
it also lets people sue someone who "intends to engage in such conduct.". So trans people not only can't enter the bathroom they also presumably can't even enter the building the bathroom is in without putting themselves at risk of being sued.
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This makes it sound broad enough that, for example, any man could be sued for being in a building that houses any women's bathroom, simply because he MIGHT use the women's bathroom. So if, for instance, a business decides to designate all of its bathrooms as "for women," a man could be sued under this law the instant he walks in the door.

--Patrick


#77

mikerc

mikerc

PatrThom said:
This makes it sound broad enough that, for example, any man could be sued for being in a building that houses any women's bathroom, simply because he MIGHT use the women's bathroom. So if, for instance, a business decides to designate all of its bathrooms as "for women," a man could be sued under this law the instant he walks in the door.

--Patrick
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It's not the intended use (at least against cis men) but technically yeah. Similar to when Utah allowed parents to sue to get "pornographic" (meaning acknowledging the existence of LGBTI+ people) books banned from schools, only to get pissy when people pointed out that the Bible met their definition & sued to get that banned. Bad laws are often badly written.


#78

GasBandit

GasBandit

Look, it's simple. They can't say it's illegal to be trans, just do things WHILE trans.


#79

D

Dubyamn

Bubble181 said:
I still don't understand why people are so hung up on this.
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Because if you can’t piss or shit outside of your own home then you can’t exist in public. Which is why bigots want to restrict access and non bigots have a problem with it.

And I mean both sides, to be clear. There are a billion good ways of skirting this issue without problems.
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There are but bigots fundamentally don’t want trans people to exist. It’s not about people’s safety it’s about wiping out trans people,


#80

Bubble181

Bubble181

OK, I badly expressed myself there, I think.
To be clear: I think transpeople (and everyone else) should be able to use any damn bathroom they very well please. I don't care about your biological sex, or the gender you're presenting as, or whatever. If you're going to use a urinal, you better follow the inwritten rule of leaving one open on either side of others if possible and not peeking, but otherwise, you do you.

And with "both sides" I did not mean to imply any sort of bothside-ism. One side is made up of exclusionary bigots, cryptoreligious zealots, and fearmongering idiots, the other side is....people wanting to go to the bathroom.

What I am trying to express is that I don't understand why this particular issue has become such a flashpoint. Dressing rooms in shops, changing rooms in swimming pools/gyms, etc would make more sense (and, again - I still don't give a flip who's in there with me, but if you're rocking beautiful breasts in the men's changing room I can only promise not to stare, I can't promise not to notice, which is very hypocritical of me given the "don't peek" unwritten rule above). And, adjacent to that, why the trans community isn't pushing more for a bathroom situation that is open/inclusive to all, rather than trying to force it into "men and women's bathrooms and we can go into which one we identify as". It narrows the discussion and still leaves enbies, genderfluid folks and perhaps some other queer groups out in the cold.


#81

General Specific

General Specific

We would love more open bathrooms. Changing rooms and locker rooms as well, let's not restrict those either. Right now, we're just trying to survive. Banning us from using the bathrooms we want or are most comfortable in is a way to stop us from existing in public. I can't go to Disney World in Florida right now because If I use a public restroom, I could be reported by someone and then investigated. If I use a women's bathroom, I could be thrown in jail for at least a year. If I go into a men's restroom, I run the risk of still being reported and possibly jailed while they "investigate" me.

This is mostly a Republican/conservative rallying point. For a long time they were going after abortion. That was their rallying cry to scare people to come out and vote for them. "They're killing babies!" Now, they won that fight. Roe v Wade was struck down, so abortion has been left up to the states to decide, which is what they were after. True they are now pushing for a nationwide ban, but it's not as big of a pull as it used to be.
"Trans people are scary and/or icky" is now what they're using. It doesn't matter if what they are doing makes sense or is the right thing to do. They just care about having something to pull the rank-and-file dumbasses out to vote for them. Something nebulous and scary sounding to get people riled up. It doesn't matter if it's true, just as long as it sounds vaguely plausible if you don't think about it for more than 2 seconds, which the majority of Americans won't.

Trans people like myself just want to live and use the bathroom when we need to. Not restricting our use of the correct bathroom is the smallest ask right now. We can cover getting Gender Neutral stuff later.

Do you really think people who are casting us as the villains are going to turn around and compromise? Do you think the Communist Party in China is going to be nice to the population of Taiwan should they ever take that over? Do you think if the Nazi party comes back they will politely ask the Jews to leave the country?

The only reason they haven't openly declared us to be enemies of the state is because they haven't had a clear majority yet. It appears that they will with the new administration coming in. Yes, I am scared for my life and the life of my spouse right now. We are preparing to flee the country if it comes down to it. I am not joking either. I cannot stress how serious I am about this.

Being allowed to use the correct bathroom is the smallest of asks. If we can't have that, what's the point of asking for more?


#82

PatrThom

PatrThom

Bubble181 said:
why [isn't] the trans community pushing more for a bathroom situation that is open/inclusive to all, rather than trying to force it into "men and women's bathrooms and we can go into which one we identify as".
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Because the trans community is very small relative to the entire population, meaning they can't push anything without having their wants/needs diluted by the sheer volume of non-trans people.

--Patrick


#83

blotsfan

blotsfan

PatrThom said:
Because the trans community is very small relative to the entire population, meaning they can't push anything without having their wants/needs diluted by the sheer volume of non-trans people.

--Patrick
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I think it’s also partly that at this point most Americans don’t know any trans people, making it easier to paint them as disgusting perverts or whatnot, the way they used to with gay people.


#84

PatrThom

PatrThom

blotsfan said:
at this point most Americans don’t know any trans people
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I would counter that, at this point, the odds suggest most (i.e., > 50%) Americans probably DO know at least one trans person, with the ones saying "I don't know any trannies!" merely unaware that at least one of the people they know is someone who is trans and hiding it, or else trans and "passing" (either post-HRT or just through sheer force of personality).
When I say "The trans community is small," I am mainly referring to the ones who are "out" and vocal about it, but I'd be willing to bet there are plenty of other "undocumented" trans folks who just want to live out their life as-is, without making any big deal about it.

--Patrick


#85

D

Dubyamn

PatrThom said:
I would counter that, at this point, the odds suggest most (i.e., > 50%) Americans probably DO know at least one trans person, with the ones saying "I don't know any trannies!" merely unaware that at least one of the people they know is someone who is trans and hiding it, or else trans and "passing" (either post-HRT or just through sheer force of personality).
When I say "The trans community is small," I am mainly referring to the ones who are "out" and vocal about it, but I'd be willing to bet there are plenty of other "undocumented" trans folks who just want to live out their life as-is, without making any big deal about it.

--Patrick
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Also I fully trust the American rightwinger to be able to say “Yeah Susan is trans but she’s not like those perverts who just want to dominate women’s sports. In fact one time I brought it up and Susan agreed with me about how to deal with “trans” people.” And not have a single follow up thought.


#86

MindDetective

MindDetective

I teach at the queer and trans friendliest University in the country (according to some reputable sources). As a result, we have a disproportionately high population of said community. I'm grateful that they have a home here that is relatively safe. It isn't completely devoid of bigotry but on the whole seems very welcoming to perform please of all kinds. I know for certain that my experience with trans and queer folks is far from the norm, though. And I suspect that plenty of trans and queer people leave the communities where they spawned and are never talked about again there.


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