Trans women are the most likely to be assaulted by men in private settings like this. It's as simple as that.
Gender Issues Thread
- Thread starter figmentPez
- Start date
Well, duh.
I mean, I understand why trans (and allies) people care about this type of laws, and their own safety.
What I don't get is why they don't strive/push more towards other solutions than "I want to keep bathrooms clearly segregated into men and women, and then never want to encounter any bigot who thinks I don't belong there". Because, well, that's not going to happen in this generation. Other solutions also tend to be more inclusive towards non-binary or fluid people.
I mean, I understand why trans (and allies) people care about this type of laws, and their own safety.
What I don't get is why they don't strive/push more towards other solutions than "I want to keep bathrooms clearly segregated into men and women, and then never want to encounter any bigot who thinks I don't belong there". Because, well, that's not going to happen in this generation. Other solutions also tend to be more inclusive towards non-binary or fluid people.
GasBandit
Staff member
The problems are the point. This is a minority community to "other" and blame. It's by design.
Be applied unequally, of course. Just like rich white republicans can get abortions, rape minors, and do all the things they demonize in poor and minority people.
*loud incorrect buzzer sound*
So every business should just build more bathrooms? Making all existing bathrooms gender neutral is better but you think the bigots will be cool with that?
This law does make exception for minors under the age of 12 if accompanied by a parent/guardian of the so-called correct sex of the bathroom (also cops can ignore this law because of fucking course they can). Although there are people 12 and over who have mental or physical disabilities such that they also need assistance who cant get it under this law.
As for gender neutral bathrooms good idea - except this law also states that every bathroom must be clearly labelled as men or women.
And just in case the law wasn't bad enough it also lets people sue someone who "intends to engage in such conduct.". So trans people not only can't enter the bathroom they also presumably can't even enter the building the bathroom is in without putting themselves at risk of being sued.
This makes it sound broad enough that, for example, any man could be sued for being in a building that houses any women's bathroom, simply because he MIGHT use the women's bathroom. So if, for instance, a business decides to designate all of its bathrooms as "for women," a man could be sued under this law the instant he walks in the door.
--Patrick
It's not the intended use (at least against cis men) but technically yeah. Similar to when Utah allowed parents to sue to get "pornographic" (meaning acknowledging the existence of LGBTI+ people) books banned from schools, only to get pissy when people pointed out that the Bible met their definition & sued to get that banned. Bad laws are often badly written.
Because if you can’t piss or shit outside of your own home then you can’t exist in public. Which is why bigots want to restrict access and non bigots have a problem with it.
There are but bigots fundamentally don’t want trans people to exist. It’s not about people’s safety it’s about wiping out trans people,
OK, I badly expressed myself there, I think.
To be clear: I think transpeople (and everyone else) should be able to use any damn bathroom they very well please. I don't care about your biological sex, or the gender you're presenting as, or whatever. If you're going to use a urinal, you better follow the inwritten rule of leaving one open on either side of others if possible and not peeking, but otherwise, you do you.
And with "both sides" I did not mean to imply any sort of bothside-ism. One side is made up of exclusionary bigots, cryptoreligious zealots, and fearmongering idiots, the other side is....people wanting to go to the bathroom.
What I am trying to express is that I don't understand why this particular issue has become such a flashpoint. Dressing rooms in shops, changing rooms in swimming pools/gyms, etc would make more sense (and, again - I still don't give a flip who's in there with me, but if you're rocking beautiful breasts in the men's changing room I can only promise not to stare, I can't promise not to notice, which is very hypocritical of me given the "don't peek" unwritten rule above). And, adjacent to that, why the trans community isn't pushing more for a bathroom situation that is open/inclusive to all, rather than trying to force it into "men and women's bathrooms and we can go into which one we identify as". It narrows the discussion and still leaves enbies, genderfluid folks and perhaps some other queer groups out in the cold.
To be clear: I think transpeople (and everyone else) should be able to use any damn bathroom they very well please. I don't care about your biological sex, or the gender you're presenting as, or whatever. If you're going to use a urinal, you better follow the inwritten rule of leaving one open on either side of others if possible and not peeking, but otherwise, you do you.
And with "both sides" I did not mean to imply any sort of bothside-ism. One side is made up of exclusionary bigots, cryptoreligious zealots, and fearmongering idiots, the other side is....people wanting to go to the bathroom.
What I am trying to express is that I don't understand why this particular issue has become such a flashpoint. Dressing rooms in shops, changing rooms in swimming pools/gyms, etc would make more sense (and, again - I still don't give a flip who's in there with me, but if you're rocking beautiful breasts in the men's changing room I can only promise not to stare, I can't promise not to notice, which is very hypocritical of me given the "don't peek" unwritten rule above). And, adjacent to that, why the trans community isn't pushing more for a bathroom situation that is open/inclusive to all, rather than trying to force it into "men and women's bathrooms and we can go into which one we identify as". It narrows the discussion and still leaves enbies, genderfluid folks and perhaps some other queer groups out in the cold.
We would love more open bathrooms. Changing rooms and locker rooms as well, let's not restrict those either. Right now, we're just trying to survive. Banning us from using the bathrooms we want or are most comfortable in is a way to stop us from existing in public. I can't go to Disney World in Florida right now because If I use a public restroom, I could be reported by someone and then investigated. If I use a women's bathroom, I could be thrown in jail for at least a year. If I go into a men's restroom, I run the risk of still being reported and possibly jailed while they "investigate" me.
This is mostly a Republican/conservative rallying point. For a long time they were going after abortion. That was their rallying cry to scare people to come out and vote for them. "They're killing babies!" Now, they won that fight. Roe v Wade was struck down, so abortion has been left up to the states to decide, which is what they were after. True they are now pushing for a nationwide ban, but it's not as big of a pull as it used to be.
"Trans people are scary and/or icky" is now what they're using. It doesn't matter if what they are doing makes sense or is the right thing to do. They just care about having something to pull the rank-and-file dumbasses out to vote for them. Something nebulous and scary sounding to get people riled up. It doesn't matter if it's true, just as long as it sounds vaguely plausible if you don't think about it for more than 2 seconds, which the majority of Americans won't.
Trans people like myself just want to live and use the bathroom when we need to. Not restricting our use of the correct bathroom is the smallest ask right now. We can cover getting Gender Neutral stuff later.
Do you really think people who are casting us as the villains are going to turn around and compromise? Do you think the Communist Party in China is going to be nice to the population of Taiwan should they ever take that over? Do you think if the Nazi party comes back they will politely ask the Jews to leave the country?
The only reason they haven't openly declared us to be enemies of the state is because they haven't had a clear majority yet. It appears that they will with the new administration coming in. Yes, I am scared for my life and the life of my spouse right now. We are preparing to flee the country if it comes down to it. I am not joking either. I cannot stress how serious I am about this.
Being allowed to use the correct bathroom is the smallest of asks. If we can't have that, what's the point of asking for more?
This is mostly a Republican/conservative rallying point. For a long time they were going after abortion. That was their rallying cry to scare people to come out and vote for them. "They're killing babies!" Now, they won that fight. Roe v Wade was struck down, so abortion has been left up to the states to decide, which is what they were after. True they are now pushing for a nationwide ban, but it's not as big of a pull as it used to be.
"Trans people are scary and/or icky" is now what they're using. It doesn't matter if what they are doing makes sense or is the right thing to do. They just care about having something to pull the rank-and-file dumbasses out to vote for them. Something nebulous and scary sounding to get people riled up. It doesn't matter if it's true, just as long as it sounds vaguely plausible if you don't think about it for more than 2 seconds, which the majority of Americans won't.
Trans people like myself just want to live and use the bathroom when we need to. Not restricting our use of the correct bathroom is the smallest ask right now. We can cover getting Gender Neutral stuff later.
Do you really think people who are casting us as the villains are going to turn around and compromise? Do you think the Communist Party in China is going to be nice to the population of Taiwan should they ever take that over? Do you think if the Nazi party comes back they will politely ask the Jews to leave the country?
The only reason they haven't openly declared us to be enemies of the state is because they haven't had a clear majority yet. It appears that they will with the new administration coming in. Yes, I am scared for my life and the life of my spouse right now. We are preparing to flee the country if it comes down to it. I am not joking either. I cannot stress how serious I am about this.
Being allowed to use the correct bathroom is the smallest of asks. If we can't have that, what's the point of asking for more?
Because the trans community is very small relative to the entire population, meaning they can't push anything without having their wants/needs diluted by the sheer volume of non-trans people.
--Patrick
I think it’s also partly that at this point most Americans don’t know any trans people, making it easier to paint them as disgusting perverts or whatnot, the way they used to with gay people.
I would counter that, at this point, the odds suggest most (i.e., > 50%) Americans probably DO know at least one trans person, with the ones saying "I don't know any trannies!" merely unaware that at least one of the people they know is someone who is trans and hiding it, or else trans and "passing" (either post-HRT or just through sheer force of personality).
When I say "The trans community is small," I am mainly referring to the ones who are "out" and vocal about it, but I'd be willing to bet there are plenty of other "undocumented" trans folks who just want to live out their life as-is, without making any big deal about it.
--Patrick
Also I fully trust the American rightwinger to be able to say “Yeah Susan is trans but she’s not like those perverts who just want to dominate women’s sports. In fact one time I brought it up and Susan agreed with me about how to deal with “trans” people.” And not have a single follow up thought.
I teach at the queer and trans friendliest University in the country (according to some reputable sources). As a result, we have a disproportionately high population of said community. I'm grateful that they have a home here that is relatively safe. It isn't completely devoid of bigotry but on the whole seems very welcoming to people of all kinds. I know for certain that my experience with trans and queer folks is far from the norm, though. And I suspect that plenty of trans and queer people leave the communities where they spawned and are never talked about again there.
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I know you don't mean it this way, but I want to point out that not telling someone they're trans is not 'hiding it' just like you not constantly telling people you're cis isn't hiding it. It's none of their business and a trans person isn't obligated to tell anyone.
Shortly after the moment my eyes and mind were fully opened to the idea of LGBTQ+ being An Actual Thing, I thought back to people I knew in my pre-college schooling. For instance, how these four girls always seemed to hang out together, even outside of school. And especially how one kid really decided to go all out for Hallowe'en or "opposite sex day" or whatever it was, where he not only did hair and makeup, but even included a couple of tennis balls to give himself a pair of breasts that were proportionate, yet not exaggerated. He caught an embarrassing amount of shit for doing so, but that's when I started thinking maybe there was a little more to it than just school spirit, and wondered whether he'd ever found happiness.
When I think of him these days, however, I instead wonder if he is even still alive.
--Patrick
figmentPez
Staff member
Has anyone mentioned that these anti-trans bills are also an attack on anyone who doesn't follow societal norms? This is an attack on women who are too tall, who don't wear makeup, who don't dress feminine enough, who don't wax/shave their facial hair, who are BIPOC and don't meet white standards of femininity, who are too athletic, or who don't go to enough effort to make themselves look stereotypically feminine. It's also an attack on men who are too short, dress too colorfully, have gynocomastia, or otherwise fail to make themselves look manly enough.
Lots of people will face harassment because of these laws.
Lots of people will face harassment because of these laws.
How does the saying go? That the terribly unfortunate side effects are the whole reason in the first place? Something like that.
--Patrick
Yeah, really seems to be the focus. Someone in the GOP really, really wants to be Secretary of Genital Inspections.