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So, halo 4 is approaching. Who will be buying?

Me, i've pre-ordered the Collectors Edition.

I've never played the first three except at those demo stands in game stores. I remember being surprisingly good at running people over in jeeps.

While I've had zero interest in the series since it's inception, I wouldn't consider myself so -above- it's fans to put it down. I know I enjoy my share of really bad games/series.

I'm over Halo. Interest lost.

No X-Box, no interest, no sale.

Gusto said:

No X-Box, no interest, no sale.

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Arrow pointing up.

Gusto said:

No X-Box, no interest, no sale.

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Frank said:

Arrow pointing up.

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I had to be literally given a free copy of Halo: Reach to play it. I'm not buying Halo 4.

what's with all the people hating on halo?

Danne said:

what's with all the people hating on halo?

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It's an age thing.

Most people were born in a time where they played what can factually be considered -better- games and the stigma around the type of person that plays Halo has been long standing since the first entry of the series.

CoD Black Ops, i'm fine with. Modern Warfare, on the other hand, i'm not fine with. But, Halo is still one of my favorite game series.[DOUBLEPOST=1349992765][/DOUBLEPOST]

Gilgamesh said:

It's an age thing.

Most people were born in a time where they played what can factually be considered -better- games and the stigma around the type of person that plays Halo has been long standing since the first entry of the series.

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How can you "Factually" prove games were better then than now?

By the gameplay: Controls, Storyline, Innovation of systems, Quantity of bugs/glitches and originality.

Gilgamesh said:

By the gameplay: Controls, Storyline, Innovation of systems, Quantity of bugs/glitches and originality.

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A lot of that is matter of opinion. I could easily say that Halo has better Controls, Storyline, Innovation of systems, Quantity of bugs/glitches, than, say, Doom

Um, no, those are quantifiable points, not opinion. (I correct myself on the storyline being quantifiable but the rest stands).

Halo plays in slow motion to me, always has. The story is also looney toons in a shitty way.

Gilgamesh said:

Um, no, those are quantifiable points, not opinion. (I correct myself on the storyline being quantifiable but the rest stands).

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Well you have a rather huffed up opinion about things don't you?

Azurephoenix said:

Well you have a rather huffed up opinion about things don't you?

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I tend to defend facts against opinion. Yes.

Gilgamesh said:

Um, no, those are quantifiable points, not opinion. (I correct myself on the storyline being quantifiable but the rest stands).

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No. Controls depend on the person using the said controls. I could like a set of controls, and you not. Innovation of systems depends on the time the said product was built. Yes, Doom had quite a bit of innovation, basically because it was the first of its kind. The original Halo had a lot of innovation, because, arguably, it was the first of its kind. Quantity of bugs depends on that persons personal experience with the game. Someone could get more bugs than others. Doom has a lot of originality because, again, first of its kind. The original Halo also had a lot of originality.

Danne said:

A lot of that is matter of opinion. I could easily say that Halo has better Controls, Storyline, Innovation of systems, Quantity of bugs/glitches, than, say, Doom

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The only quantifiable measure in that list is the number of bugs and glitches.

Frank said:

Halo plays in slow motion to me, always has. The story is also looney toons in a shitty way.

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Ya, no. As someone that has read through the books and has a pretty good idea of the story, I think it's quite well written. Also, the combat is slower paced, but that's a good thing compared to, say, Call of Duty, where you run out, shoot something, die, then respond in about the time it takes to take a sip of your Monster.

Halo 4?

Adam said:

The only quantifiable measure in that list is the number of bugs and glitches.

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Ya. I'll give you that.[DOUBLEPOST=1349993622][/DOUBLEPOST]

GasBandit said:

Halo 4?

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That is most certainly a Jackal in disguise.

Gilgamesh said:

I tend to defend facts against opinion. Yes.

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Most of the things you listed are not quantifiable. I love the control scheme in Halo... you don't. How is that a fact versus opinion? It's two opinions. Your facts are nothing more than your own opinions.

I enjoyed all the Halo games, and this is from someone who fondly remembers Wolfentstein 3D and all the many many games leading up to the Halo franchise.

Adam said:

The only quantifiable measure in that list is the number of bugs and glitches.

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Azurephoenix said:

Most of the things you listed are not quantifiable. I love the control scheme in Halo... you don't. How is that a fact versus opinion? It's two opinions. Your facts are nothing more than your own opinions.

I enjoyed all the Halo games, and this is from someone who fondly remembers Wolfentstein 3D and all the many many games leading up to the Halo franchise.

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See below.

Danne said:

No. Controls depend on the person using the said controls. I could like a set of controls, and you not.

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Horrendously incorrect. Games have lived and died based on how good/bad they control. What you're saying is that the controls on a Mugen Fighter are on par with Street Fighter IV Arcade Edition depending on who's controlling it? I hope not.

Danne said:

Innovation of systems depends on the time the said product was built. Yes, Doom had quite a bit of innovation, basically because it was the first of its kind. The original Halo had a lot of innovation, because, arguably, it was the first of its kind.

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Not even close. Halo was the culimation of the entire FPS genre that came before it. It took all the ideas previously had, and brought absolutely zero Innovation of System to the genre at all. It in some areas, actually dumbed down (simplified) the systems to appeal to a wider audience that had troubles with more complicated FPS sytems.

Danne said:

Quantity of bugs depends on that persons personal experience with the game. Someone could get more bugs than others.

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There is absolutely no truth in that statement what so ever. A game has the same number of glitches/bugs no mater who is playing it. Could they be found by someone more than someonelse? Sure, but that doesn't affect the over all number in any way.

Danne said:

Doom has a lot of originality because, again, first of its kind. The original Halo also had a lot of originality.

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Again, no. Halo is a culmination of stories/gameplay from previous games in the genre and was more of a Simplified Copy of said games than anything original.

Danne said:

Ya, no. As someone that has read through the books and has a pretty good idea of the story, I think it's quite well written. Also, the combat is slower paced, but that's a good thing compared to, say, Call of Duty, where you run out, shoot something, die, then respond in about the time it takes to take a sip of your Monster.

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There are only two shooters, CoD and Halo.

That's it.

Forever.

I'd just like to say that trying to make Halo look good by comparing it to Call of Duty isn't exactly getting the job done.

I'd also like to say that in many ways, the blame for the state of Call of Duty lies squarely at the feet of the Halo Franchise, since it furthered the consolitis infection of the first person shooter genre that has led to so many of them being hallway combat simulators that are graphically advanced but have less freedom and range than Doom 1.

1. Halo has multiple control schemes. Play it however you want.

2. Halo was the first big console multiplayer game, and it basically defined all multiplayer games since then. The story for Halo has always been good. Not Mass Effect good, but that's not the point.

3. I'll give you that one.

4. See 3

Gilgamesh said:

Counterpoints

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GasBandit said:

I'd just like to say that trying to make Halo look good by comparing it to Call of Duty isn't exactly getting the job done.

I'd also like to say that in many ways, the blame for the state of Call of Duty lies squarely at the feet of the Halo Franchise, since it furthered the consolitis infection of the first person shooter genre that has led to so many of them being hallway combat simulators that are graphically advanced but have less freedom and range than Doom 1.

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Are you saying Halo is bad because it popularized a genre?

Danne said:

1. Halo has multiple control schemes. Play it however you want.

2. Halo was the first big console multiplayer game, and it basically defined all multiplayer games since then. The story for Halo has always been good. Not Mass Effect good, but that's not the point.

3. I'll give you that one.

4. See 3

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2. No, that's Goldeneye.

I hated Goldeneye too at the time. I was playing Unreal when Goldeneye was getting huge.

Frank said:

There are only two shooters, CoD and Halo.

That's it.

Forever.

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Lets all be honest here. CoD and Halo are tghe two currently most popular shooters. I love Ghost Recon, but the servers are getting more and more scarce. Same with ME3 Multiplayer.

1: You're missing the point yet again. It's not about control schemes, it's about how the gameplay is overall. Did you enjoy it? Did Azurephoenix? Sure. Were the controls more fluid/complex than games before it? No.
2: The only thing Halo did in Innovation of System was that it was the first big console FPS to hit the mainstream. That's like saying Justin Beiber is the best artist of all time. He's not, he's just the most popular right now.

I think you're misunderstanding me. I never said Halo was a bad game or a bad series. Your question was why so much Halo hate. It's because it's a game that got popular for being popular, not for being good. It's the same as why some people hate Nicki Minaj or Twilight.

Frank said:

2. No, that's Goldeneye.

I hated Goldeneye too.

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Which series is still being made? Ya. Halo.

I'm not doubting Goldeneye. i loved the movie, and have the game for my N64. But, Halo popularized Xbox's system link, the first step towards online multiplayer.[DOUBLEPOST=1349994377][/DOUBLEPOST]

Gilgamesh said:

I think you're misunderstanding me. I never said Halo was a bad game or a bad series. Your question was why so much Halo hate. It's because it's a game that got popular for being popular, not for being good. It's the same as why some people hate Nicki Minaj or Twilight.

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I hate Twilight. Never compare Halo and Twilight. Halo got popular because of how Epic it was. I listen to the first game's soundtrack on my Ipod. The story, for the time, was superb.

Danne said:

I hate Twilight. Never compare Halo and Twilight. Halo got popular because of how Epic it was. I listen to the first game's soundtrack on my Ipod. The story, for the time, was superb.

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You may hate Twilight and love Halo but they're popular for the same reason. Taking ideas from previous things that were superior in most ways but more complicated and simplifying them down for the general public.

Telling Frank -Which series is still being made? Ya. Halo- is like saying -One Direction is better than The Beatles because they have more youtube hits-

Are you fucking telling me Goldeneye wasn't huge? Get the fuck out.

Halo was outsold by Goldeneye by millions of copies.

Goldeneye was the first massively popular console first person shooter. That's something that happened.

I honestly just don't like the series. I miss the run and gun days of Doom and Quake, before regenerating shields came along and made it so developers didn't need to be intelligent about their placement of items or the difficulty of their challenges. That was also about the time that all shooter game maps became long tunnels because they were worried the players wouldn't be smart enough to find their way around the map. I don't even need to get into how that was the moment that style became more important than substance.

Basically, a lot of people hate Halo because it exemplifies the moment the industry fundamentally changed for the worst.

Danne said:

Are you saying Halo is bad because it popularized a genre?

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No, I'm saying Halo (and yes, Goldeneye before it) are to blame for first person shooters becoming shit. If "popular" is the measure of quality, then let me hear how much you love Justin Bieber.

Edit: yeah, what Ash said.

I don't attend enough frat parties to like Halo.
[DOUBLEPOST=1349995700][/DOUBLEPOST]I find the brofist ratings ironic as hell.

All the "My FPS is better than yours" nerd fighting aside, I'm tentatively looking forward to Halo 4. The series is generally well-made and fun, if not terribly innovative, and I'm interested in seeing where MC ended up after the events of 3. Though with the changes in the crew behind it, I'll probably have a more wait and see approach about it before buying it.

Bowielee said:

I find the brofist ratings ironic as hell.

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Kind of why. I was gonna like and thought brofist was more appropriate.

Reverent-one said:

All the "My FPS is better than yours" nerd fighting aside, I'm tentatively looking forward to Halo 4. The series is generally well-made and fun, if not terribly innovative, and I'm interested in seeing where MC ended up after the events of 3. Though with the changes in the crew behind it, I'll probably have a more wait and see approach about it before buying it.

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Where was the -My FPS is better than yours- arguing? I think someone made a comparison to a few games but opinion comparing I didn't see anywhere.

I don't like FPSs in general.

Gilgamesh said:

Where was the -My FPS is better than yours- arguing? I think someone made a comparison to a few games but opinion comparing I didn't see anywhere.

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Interesting. I don't see the word opinion anywhere in my post. There's certainly been plenty of arguing going on in this thread and claims made about <x> being good/bad though.

Well it definitely wasn't factual so I'm lead to believe it was an opinion in your post. My apologies.

Also I never made any -claims- I made factual points with counter points to further enforce said facts.

I played like five minutes of the Halo 2's story mode and wasn't impressed. Haven't bothered with the franchise ever since.

ThatNickGuy said:

I played like five minutes of the Halo 2's story mode and wasn't impressed. Haven't bothered with the franchise ever since.

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That's probably since you started in the middle. Play Reach. It takes place before the first game.

Gilgamesh said:

Also I never made any -claims- I made factual points with counter points to further enforce said facts.

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Didn't we agree some of the stuff you said was, indeed, your opinion?

Danne said:

Didn't we agree some of the stuff you said was, indeed, your opinion?

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Yes, the part where I said storyline was quantifiable.

Gilgamesh said:

Yes, the part where I said storyline was quantifiable.

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No. Pretty sure we decided everything except Buggs was an opinion

I love this thread.

Danne said:

No. Pretty sure we decided everything except Buggs was an opinion

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Re-Read your own post where you quoted my counter-points and the post I made after it. It should re-clear it up for you.

Gusto said:

I love this thread.

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Me too.

Gilgamesh said:

Re-Read your own post where you quoted my counter-points and the post I made after it. It should re-clear it up for you.


Me too.

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I'll get on that. Ya. This thread is fun. I really enjoy discussing this.[DOUBLEPOST=1350009206][/DOUBLEPOST]

Frank said:

Are you fucking telling me Goldeneye wasn't huge? Get the fuck out.

Halo was outsold by Goldeneye by millions of copies.

Goldeneye was the first massively popular console first person shooter. That's something that happened.

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Ya. Console Multiplayer. Halo used system link. First 16 player multiplayer. I'm not saying Goldeneye wasn't huge, i'm just saying Halo was huger[DOUBLEPOST=1350009364][/DOUBLEPOST]

Gilgamesh said:

You may hate Twilight and love Halo but they're popular for the same reason. Taking ideas from previous things that were superior in most ways but more complicated and simplifying them down for the general public.

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Please explain to me how Doom was complicated. A game with your entire goal being 'Shoot things"? yes, Halo took inspiration from previous titles, but saying any game that takes something from a previous game a "Ripoff", would basically mean the first game in every genre would be the only game that has its own stuff.

It wasn't "HUGER".

Goldeneye outsold Halo by millions of copies.

Danne said:

That's probably since you started in the middle. Play Reach. It takes place before the first game.

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That would require my buying an Xbox, which isn't happening as there aren't any games aside from Alan Wake that I'm even remotely interested in.

ThatNickGuy said:

That would require my buying an Xbox, which isn't happening as there aren't any games aside from Alan Wake that I'm even remotely interested in.

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Psst... Alan Wake is on PC now.

Danne said:

Please explain to me how Doom was complicated. A game with your entire goal being 'Shoot things"?

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Oh no you di'int! Time to break out THIS golden oldie -




Two roads diverged in a wood, and thanks to console tard FPSes like goldeneye and halo, the FPS genre took the path to where it is now. It got stuck in the suckening that came along with the rise of consoles. The limited hardware capability of consoles meant that FPS designers who wanted to get the cash from the tard crowd had to make sure that their game wouldn't melt your xbox into a sad little lump of plastic. Thus, FPSes became ever prettier hallways, instead of actual levels with multiple paths and required backtracking. Halo is the symbol on the flag planted on the factory that makes the shackles that kept PC gaming tied down for the last decade plus. Your 16-player halo multiplayer had its roots in Doom, the game that invented deathmatch. Not only could it use LAN to play, it could use modems to dial other computers via phone lines (no xbox live required). The innovations you crow about were done years before by a tiny PC dev house called "id software." But then the console Marconi'd PC's Tesla, now we were all supposed to be floored by how halo got innovation credit for networking.

So look down your nose at CoD all you like, it is your shit, and you should be ashamed of what you have eaten.

/drops mic

Marathon called and said you can all suck it.

Halo: Combat Evolved was released in 2001 and it doesn't suffer from the hallway effect as badly as that graphic would indicate. Admittedly it doesn't have the level design of old Doom or Duke Nukem 3D levels but the level design in the series wasn't originally as poor. Lately most FPS games have been hitting the hallway badly and I suspect that Halo 4 will be no different in that regard.

Really though, it wasn't just the hardware limitations of consoles that created the hallway effect. It is publishers/developers wanting more and more profit which comes through broadening the appeal of games. This is also known as dumbing things down which I know you guys have seen in multiple games and genres over the years. It's why point and click adventure games have all but dissapeared. It's why innovative games aren't something developers like to try out anymore. It's why MMO's almost always get turned into carebear-land. There are many more examples I'm sure you can come up with (my personal favorite is the complete self-destruction of the Mass Effect series which I held dear to my heart).

I'm hoping beyond hope that kickstarter will allow fresh, fun and innovative games to be produced again without interference from giant studios and money hungry executives who in my eyes are the real culprits behind the gaming quality decline.

Anybody else remember checking every single wall in Wolf3D because there were absolutely 0 visual clues to tell you which was a secret door?

GasBandit said:

Anybody else remember checking every single wall in Wolf3D because there were absolutely 0 visual clues to tell you which was a secret door?

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*Raises his hand*

Man, I still remember playing Duke3d and quake (16 player deathmatch, and even the original Team Fortress mod) in college on the network with other PC users while my roommate and his friends played a blurry smear simulator on our 13 inch TV they called "Goldeneye."

GasBandit said:

Man, I still remember playing Duke3d and quake (16 player deathmatch, and even the original Team Fortress mod) in college on the network with other PC users while my roommate and his friends played a blurry smear simulator on our 13 inch TV they called "Goldeneye."

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I have fond memories of Duke Nukem 3D. I loved playing deathmatch in that stupid subway level... got run over so many times.

Azurephoenix said:

I have fond memories of Duke Nukem 3D. I loved playing deathmatch in that stupid subway level... got run over so many times.

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Flash forward a few years. Unreal Tournament 2004, hands down one of the best FPSes ever created. I still play it sometimes these days. Infinitely moddable, infinitely expandable, amazing community creating even more content in the form of levels and character models. So many gameplay modes. Awesome controls. Everything about it was Top. Fuckin. Shelf.

Then UT3 came along, and we wondered what happened.



Ohhhh, THAT'S what happened.

Yep, I still have my Unreal Tournament 2004 discs (plus a GOG version so I can easily set it up for LAN parties). I played more of the original Unreal Tournament though. That was the peak of my FPS skill... I was actually pretty damn devastating at that point. My skills have gone way down since then though.

Unreal Tournament 3 was flipping awful. AWFUL! And yes, I do agree that developing games for both PC and consoles simultaneously does often make for a craptastic game.

GasBandit said:

Anybody else remember checking every single wall in Wolf3D because there were absolutely 0 visual clues to tell you which was a secret door?

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I grinded those walls so much, I think they proposed to me once.

I make no apologies for being a console gamer. It suits my busy lifestyle and constrained budget. Suck it PC gamers![DOUBLEPOST=1350075084][/DOUBLEPOST]Also, I'm pretty Halo'd out. I might rent it and play just for the co-op play with my brother.

MindDetective said:

It suits my busy lifestyle and constrained budget.

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You just described crystal meth.

I don't think meth is for busy people. Coke?

MindDetective said:

I don't think meth is for busy people. Coke?

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Too 'spensive. Like a PC.

When I was 16 I worked at olive garden. My manager was a total meth head, and he ran around looking busy and harried all the time.

When Halo was announced I was super excited for it. I remember watching the first previews and thinking how amazing it looked for a PC game with massive open landscapes that you could ride or fly around. It was about the open world and teamwork. It was even going to have a Mac version, Steve Jobs himself was the one that showed it off when it was first unvieled.

Then, years later, Microsoft decided it needed a game to spearhead the new Xbox and saw how popular Halo was getting with the PC FPS crowd, bought out Bungie, told them to fuck the PC/Mac structure and make it specifically for the Xbox as an exclusive. They rewrote the whole thing, so much so that later on, when they decided to finally release it on PC, they had to port it all back again with a rather buggy mess.

What's funny is that I still enjoyed the first one, not on the level I would have had they stayed true to the original design, but it had it's fun moments. The multiplayer could suck a dick though.

They lost me in Halo 2, when the storyline was so convoluted and uninspired (plus let's be honest, was cut in half so they would drag it out in Halo 3), that I put down the controller after the half way point and just never really looked back.

GasBandit said:

Too 'spensive. Like a PC.

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Aha, so Ritalin. Drug of choice for twitchy college bros everywhere.

So Halo 4 is being released tomorrow... and so far the reviews have been really good (pretty high score on Metacritic). Penny Arcade gave it glowing praise as well. Of course, that really doesn't mean much as we all have our own views of such things but so far it looks like it shouldn't totally suck. I look forward to exploring the new world of Requiem and recapturing some of that wonder from the first Halo.

I'm also interested to see how the "rampancy" of the AI Cortana plays out. I hope they actually do something good with it as it has the chance to actually infuse the Master Chief with some modicum of emotion.

Halo: Reach was shit, but this seems to be good again. I have only played about an hour of multiplayer, but so far it seems to be better than all the previous ones (Except it has caught the you-need-to-level-to-customize sickness)

I'm picking it up this afternoon. I couldn't care less about innovation, I just want to have fun playing the game. Halo, thus far, has been fun. When I play online, I generally voice chat with a friend so that we don't have to be subjected to the gaming population.

Now that I have a 7 week old, I won't have the same amount of time to sit down and play it, but I don't have to go out and upgrade my computer to do it...it works just fine on my old Xbox 360. That's a huge reason I'm not a PC gamer.