Hunting women from the back of a jeep (Penny Arcade)

[strawman]

Once in awhile Tycho and Gabe will hold their opinions forth in public, and I love it when they do.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/2009/8/10/

This discussion is particularly interesting:

I get fascinated by sparkling things sometimes, things I want to incorporate into my nest, and it cinches a noose around my mind which locks me into a kind of inexorable \"information accrual\" mode. Scientology is a perennial in this regard, to the extent that I actively avoid information about it because it's too fascinating and I don't want to join the \"church\" in a moment of weakness. I recently had the misfortune of being exposed to some propaganda from the \"seduction community,\" and I've spent the weekend on a kind of data bender that has left me psychologically gutted. I've been trying to navigate away from this page for about an hour now, and I can't do it. That these people are base manipulators should be apparent to any literate person; they've made a cage of language that I can't escape from.

I don't know, Love Systems doesn't seem so bad to me. It's really hard to talk to girls, and this is just helping guys with their confidence. Women are terrifying and strange, I don't see anything wrong with getting some advice.

I'm fairly certain the purpose of this course is to make you a better predator of women. Check out their offers of \"in-field training,\" as though you were going to hunt antelopes from a jeep in the Goddamned Savannah.

I think you're being overly dramatic. Girls have been using their \"feminine wiles\" to manipulate men since the beginning of time. Do you really think the mind games girls play on guys are any better or worse than this stuff. The only difference is that this sort of thing comes naturally to women. Guys are in a tight spot because in very real terms, we have nothing they want. They on the other hand, have vaginas. They can make us do pretty much what ever they want. I don't see anything wrong with guys trying to learn some tricks of their own.

This, from the dude who thinks it's okay to have sex with unconscious women. That must be considered the \"ultimate\" technique, something akin to true mastery.

Hold on just a second asshole. You are taking that comment way out of context!

We were having a conversation about Ambien Sex. You had told me that the drug has been known to put people into a sort of horny trance. Eventually some questions about the morality of such a situation were brought up. What I said was that if your wife takes Ambien and then jumps you in the middle of the night wanting to get all freaky, I would not call that \"rape\". That's not the same as saying that going around having sex with unconscious girls is okay. We were discussing a hypothetical and I gave my opinion.

I'm not sure the people who espouse these \"love systems\" or \"dating sciences\" want much to do with women outside of their role as the variable in some bizarre equation they're endlessly iterating. And if you aren't interested in women, or at any rate you aren't interested in actual women, or if you are only interested in a subset of a woman's physicality, there's an app for that.

Listen, I would never personally take a class like this. I think it's silly and expensive. All I am saying is that I can relate to guys who are scared to talk to girls and I can understand how desperate they might be for help. Obviously I don't approve of hunting women from the back of a jeep and if that's the intent of this shit then yeah it's fucked up. If it gives guys genuine tips for getting past their anxiety around a girl then I think it's fine.

On the one hand, yeah, most guys could use classes in how to approach and charm women (who, by and large, enjoy being charmed just short of being manipulated).

On the other hand, once you roll 20's for charisma, are you really giving her something she wants, or manipulating her?

At what point does this information and skill remove the girl's ability to choose? Is it any different than advertising a product she didn't want, and doesn't need, but after the commercial she wants?

Also, what, if anything, is the difference between being manipulated and feeling manipulated? Does it matter?

Is Gabe's point about Women being 'naturally manipulative" valid (ie, they spend more time thinking about relationships and understanding/adjusting social situations than men, and are thus 'naturally' better at it, without even thinking they are using that to their advantage)? Typical chick flick vs action movie, dolls vs trucks, etc.

-Adam

 

[Steven Soderburgin]

I think you're being overly dramatic. Girls have been using their "feminine wiles" to manipulate men since the beginning of time. Do you really think the mind games girls play on guys are any better or worse than this stuff. The only difference is that this sort of thing comes naturally to women. Guys are in a tight spot because in very real terms, we have nothing they want. They on the other hand, have vaginas. They can make us do pretty much what ever they want. I don't see anything wrong with guys trying to learn some tricks of their own.

This is the quote that is really telling to me. It's not a conscious, aggressive misogyny, but it's very ignorant and fits right in with the sort of casual sexism that is incredibly pervasive in the social consciousness. Saying that manipulation comes naturally to women, or that "we have nothing they want," is not just crass, it's completely inaccurate and represents a heavy bit of cognitive dissonance. Why would women manipulate and prey on men if we have nothing they want?

I do agree with the very basic idea that Gabe is getting at, which is that if guys have a lot of anxiety around women, there's nothing wrong with teaching them to overcome that anxiety. However, he's missing the point that these pick-up groups and such don't teach how to overcome anxiety at all, they just teach how to manipulate and prey on women.

On the one hand, yeah, most guys could use classes in how to approach and charm women (who, by and large, enjoy being charmed just short of being manipulated).

On the other hand, once you roll 20's for charisma, are you really giving her something she wants, or manipulating her?

At what point does this information and skill remove the girl's ability to choose? Is it any different than advertising a product she didn't want, and doesn't need, but after the commercial she wants?

Also, what, if anything, is the difference between being manipulated and feeling manipulated? Does it matter?

-Adam

These pick-up classes are not interested in giving the women anything they want. They are entirely about you, the man, getting what you want. The women don't enter into the equation other than as objects of desire. The metaphor of hunting them from the back of a jeep is pretty apt; these men don't care about the women they are targeting, except as the means of exercising sexual dominance.

 

[strawman]

They are entirely about you, the man, getting what you want.

So you are saying that these techniques remove a woman's ability to choose what she wants? That's what I'm wondering - are the techniques bad because they remove free will (ie, manipulating the meat of the brain into doing the master's bidding) or are they bad for some other reason?

-Adam

 

[Cuyval Dar]

Damn, I'm too late for a 'inb4 Charsinger'.

 

[Dubyamn]

Man Tycho is a douche. Really just a huge douche. Women with that reaction to Ambian are anything but "passed out." When my GF had that reaction she was an aggressive and full participant. Course the next day when she woke up with no pants and no memory at all of what happened I felt skeazy as all hell but there really is no way of telling weather the woman is really into you or just having a side effect that almost nobody knows about.

As for the idea of pick up classes being big game hunters who hunt down the unsuspecting women who are just minding their own business... Really? Fucking Really?

Are women really such mailable pieces of clay that a few choice words from the right guy will make them into his wanton playthings? Or are they intelligent people who make their own choices about who they sleep with for whatever reasons they want?

 

You know what I think is interesting? The same types of pathetic losers who take "classes" like these are the same types of guys who have no self esteem and blow innocent women away while they are at the gym.

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbKXqgGGyoo&feature=player_embedded:36qrd2cj][/youtube:36qrd2cj]

This guy constantly read bullshit like this to "pick up younger chicks". He attended seminars on the subject!

So to say that this sort of thing is there only to boost confidence? I don't buy it.

 

[Steven Soderburgin]

So you are saying that these techniques remove a woman's ability to choose what she wants? That's what I'm wondering - are the techniques bad because they remove free will (ie, manipulating the meat of the brain into doing the master's bidding) or are they bad for some other reason?

-Adam

Are you asking if these guys are literally brainwashing women? They're not literally removing free will, but they are completely manipulating the women they're going after.

Are women really such mailable pieces of clay that a few choice words from the right guy will make them into his wanton playthings?

This is pretty much exactly the idea the people who participate in the "pick-up" culture promote and believe.

And Ed, thanks for bring up the George Sodini story. I was thinking about it, but wanted to see where the discussion would go before I brought it up.

 

These types of things just piss me off. All these "classes" or seminars are all snake oil salesmen who prey on sad pathetic men with no self esteem the same way that weight loss and diet products prey of overweight women with low self esteem.

You know what attracts both men AND women? Confidence! That and a good physical appearance - even if it's just good grooming on an average face/body. These types of "programs" do not help self confidence, but instead tears it down when it doesn't work. Sodini fell into this trap when he was trying to attract 20-25 year old women at the age of 48. It's just not going to happen unless you have a lot of money and find the superficial bimbos this invariably attracts.

And it wasn't Tycho sticking up for this site, I gather it's more Gabe.

 

[strawman]

So you are saying that these techniques remove a woman's ability to choose what she wants? That's what I'm wondering - are the techniques bad because they remove free will (ie, manipulating the meat of the brain into doing the master's bidding) or are they bad for some other reason?

-Adam

Are you asking if these guys are literally brainwashing women? They're not literally removing free will, but they are completely manipulating the women they're going after.

Ok, so you believe it's bad to learn and use manipulative techniques when talking to people.

Er... isn't that what a lot of human conversation is about anyway? When you have certain a discussions with someone aren't you trying to lead them down the logical path that,ideally, ends up at your desired conclusion so they understand what you are talking about?

What's the difference?

-Adam

 

[LittleSin]

I don't know guys....chicks can use what God gave them to be manipulative.

I've used my charms to talk prices down at stores and Flea Markets...nothing really major. The one who has been really bad for this and still is would be my sister. She can get anything from a guy and she has the amazing ability to disregard said guys feelings the whole time.

Hell, I can name at least five other girls that manipulate men, either knowingly or unknowingly.

So don't get all 'white knight' on me. Most chicks know how to pull the strings to get what they want...I see this as leveling the playing field.

 

[WolfOfOdin]

Well.....

I'm generally rather good at being charming and witty and that ability came right after I absolutely lost all ability to care what anyone who isn't me thinks of me. Playing 3 instruments and being able to construct a poetically sound compliment help too :tongue:. I'll happily introduce myself to random people if I think they might be interesting. In that there's an amount of confidence in one's self that can make the opposite sex more attracted. Does it always work? Hell no! I've thrown out my charming best and been laughed at by girls who want an over-muscled idiot or a frat boy before. What keeps me from generally breaking down in the face of those rejections is that I can simply view it as a learning exercise.

Does that make me manipulative? Yes, to a point. However I tend to at times view social interaction as a grand orchestra of subtle manipulation, concious or unconcious as the act may be.

 

[Dubyamn]

Are women really such mailable pieces of clay that a few choice words from the right guy will make them into his wanton playthings?

This is pretty much exactly the idea the people who participate in the "pick-up" culture promote and believe.

Indeed however this flies in the face of everything that I have ever experienced with any woman in my entire life.

I may be an outlier who has never entered onto the right combination of body language/ words to get a woman to do what I want but I have never convinced any woman in my life to do something that they just plain didn't want to do without heavy negotiation and compromise.

 

[WolfOfOdin]

Are women really such mailable pieces of clay that a few choice words from the right guy will make them into his wanton playthings?

This is pretty much exactly the idea the people who participate in the "pick-up" culture promote and believe.

Indeed however this flies in the face of everything that I have ever experienced with any woman in my entire life.

I may be an outlier who has never entered onto the right combination of body language/ words to get a woman to do what I want but I have never convinced any woman in my life to do something that they just plain didn't want to do without heavy negotiation and compromise.

>_> Learn to play the violin.

 

[Steven Soderburgin]

Ok, so you believe it's bad to learn and use manipulative techniques when talking to people.

Er... isn't that what a lot of human conversation is about anyway? When you have certain a discussions with someone aren't you trying to lead them down the logical path that,ideally, ends up at your desired conclusion so they understand what you are talking about?

What's the difference?

-Adam

The men who take these classes or read these guidebooks or whatever aren't trying to reach an understanding. They don't see women as people with whom they can have a dialogue and reach an understanding. They don't respect the women they target or see them as whole human beings. They just want sex. That's the difference.

All of this promotes a culture of misogyny. The people who write these books or run these seminars are exploiting these pathetic men with extreme self-esteem issues who just need some help, and they're doing that by promoting the idea that sleeping with as many women as possible is the ultimate validation of worth and that doing whatever you can to achieve that goal is worth it, even if it means lying, tricking, and manipulating women. They don't tell men to respect women, or get to know them, or have relationships. It's damaging to everyone.

 

[Norris]

The reason, in general, women have these "feminine wiles" and have most of the power in a relationship is because most guys (including myself) are horny almost all the damn time! Most porn is geared towards us, strip clubs for us outnumber strip clubs for them, brothels in Nevada don't have male sex workers (or at least not many), and most girls discussing cute guys they see out and about do not immediately go to sex. That's why they have power. Not because it's some innate thing. We simply have an innate kryptonite. When they manipulate, which some do, it's because they are playing on that. When these pick-up artists manipulate, it's trading by pretending to be a good guy, the kind of guy they want to be with. One is using an innate weakness. The other is lying.

EDIT: GOD DAMN IT, i'm just gonna post this. You fuckers keep ninjaing me.

 

[Steven Soderburgin]

Indeed however this flies in the face of everything that I have ever experienced with any woman in my entire life.

It's almost as if the people who write these pick-up guides and run these seminars are just spinning bullshit to exploit desperate, depressed men out of their money.

 

[Dubyamn]

It's almost as if the people who write these pick-up guides and run these seminars are just spinning bullshit to exploit desperate, depressed men out of their money.

Which is why I think the claims of hunting women from the back of a jeep like they are wildebeests on the Serengeti who are just minding their own business and completely unaware of the hunters is an absolutely ignorant statement to make. You pick up women who want to be picked up with pick up lines and you get shot down by the ones who don't.

 

[Steven Soderburgin]

Which is why I think the claims of hunting women from the back of a jeep like they are wildebeests on the Serengeti who are just minding their own business and completely unaware of the hunters is an absolutely ignorant statement to make. You pick up women who want to be picked up with pick up lines and you get shot down by the ones who don't.

I think you misunderstand. The "hunting women from the back of a jeep" analogy was meant to convey how the men who take these classes behave and think. It's meant to express their attitudes toward women, not the reality of whether this methodology works or not. Although if you're saying that no one ever successfully manipulates someone else into sleeping with them when that person otherwise wouldn't have, then I don't know what to tell you.

-- Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:49 am --

The reason, in general, women have these "feminine wiles" and have most of the power in a relationship is because most guys (including myself) are horny almost all the damn time! Most porn is geared towards us, strip clubs for us outnumber strip clubs for them, brothels in Nevada don't have male sex workers (or at least not many), and most girls discussing cute guys they see out and about do not immediately go to sex. That's why they have power. Not because it's some innate thing. We simply have an innate kryptonite. When they manipulate, which some do, it's because they are playing on that. When these pick-up artists manipulate, it's trading by pretending to be a good guy, the kind of guy they want to be with. One is using an innate weakness. The other is lying.

I don't even know where to begin with this post.

 

[Dubyamn]

I think you misunderstand. The "hunting women from the back of a jeep" analogy was meant to convey how the men who take these classes behave and think. It's meant to express their attitudes toward women, not the reality of whether this methodology works or not.

It is entirely possible that we were arguing 2 separate points. I guess I read Tycho's posts a little differently

Although if you're saying that no one ever successfully manipulates someone else into sleeping with them when that person otherwise wouldn't have, then I don't know what to tell you.

I'm definitely not saying that in no case has anybody fully manipulated a woman into having sex with him. I'm saying they you're not going to learn how to do that from some 50 minute seminar.

 

[Iaculus]

Although if you're saying that no one ever successfully manipulates someone else into sleeping with them when that person otherwise wouldn't have, then I don't know what to tell you.

I'm definitely not saying that in no case has anybody fully manipulated a woman into having sex with him. I'm saying they you're not going to learn how to do that from some 50 minute seminar.

... Which doesn't exactly mitigate the disturbingness of the goal, yes?

 

[Steven Soderburgin]

Just to be perfectly clear, I'm sure there are a lot of guys (maybe even most of the guys who buy these books and go to these seminars) who use or attempt to use these systems to get over their anxiety with women and who want to actually connect with another person instead of using them as an object to promote their fucked up idea of sexuality, power, and dominance, but it seems to me like these things promote seeking one night stands and "gaming" women as the ultimate goal and engender pretty frightening attitudes toward women.

 

[Shannow]

 

[@Li3n]

Use a jeep?! Now why didn't i think of that before...

 

[Adam]

Use a jeep?! Now why didn't i think of that before...

That's why I bought mine! Tagged me a redhead at 500 paces.

 

[strawman]

I'm not interested in defending those that teach these classes, nor those that use them.

What I'm interested in learning is why people here think it's 'wrong', 'bad', or 'disturbing'.

A guy decides "I want to have sex with some girl." He goes to a bar, talks to several women over the course of an hour or three, and eventually leaves with one that is willing to have sex with him.

Where did the bad, wrong, or disturbing thing occur? The women he eventually left with didn't necessarily come to have sex with some random guy - she may just have been out with friends. She may or may not be inebriated. The several women he talked to the turned him down first may have initially come to the bar with the intention of having sex, but were not interested in his advances, though he may have used the same techniques for each woman.

This guy had a goal, he used his knowledge and practiced skills to accomplish his goal. He did not drug the woman that eventually went with him.

Where is the problem? Is it with his goal of having sex with a random stranger? Is it with the tools/skills/techniques he used to get close enough to someone quickly enough that they were willing to meet his goal? Is it that he succeeded? Is it that he didn't care about which girl he took, and wasn't interested in more than a one-night stand?

What is disturbing, wrong, or bad about this, and why should it make a difference if he has studied and honed his skills, whether alone by observation and practice, or with psychology books, or seduction books, or through classes/conventions/etc?

Where is the problem?

-Adam

 

[@Li3n]

See here:

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c06pinaKl8o:1a6eeahe][/youtube:1a6eeahe]

 

[Norris]

The reason, in general, women have these "feminine wiles" and have most of the power in a relationship is because most guys (including myself) are horny almost all the damn time! Most porn is geared towards us, strip clubs for us outnumber strip clubs for them, brothels in Nevada don't have male sex workers (or at least not many), and most girls discussing cute guys they see out and about do not immediately go to sex. That's why they have power. Not because it's some innate thing. We simply have an innate kryptonite. When they manipulate, which some do, it's because they are playing on that. When these pick-up artists manipulate, it's trading by pretending to be a good guy, the kind of guy they want to be with. One is using an innate weakness. The other is lying.

I don't even know where to begin with this post.

Let's start with that it was supposed to be on your side, and then show me where I am incorrect about the male sex drive versus the female sex drive.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

The reason, in general, women have these "feminine wiles" and have most of the power in a relationship is because most guys (including myself) are horny almost all the damn time! Most porn is geared towards us, strip clubs for us outnumber strip clubs for them, brothels in Nevada don't have male sex workers (or at least not many), and most girls discussing cute guys they see out and about do not immediately go to sex. That's why they have power. Not because it's some innate thing. We simply have an innate kryptonite. When they manipulate, which some do, it's because they are playing on that. When these pick-up artists manipulate, it's trading by pretending to be a good guy, the kind of guy they want to be with. One is using an innate weakness. The other is lying.

I don't even know where to begin with this post.

Let's start with that it was supposed to be on your side, and then show me where I am incorrect about the male sex drive versus the female sex drive.

Here, let me chime in, it's pretty offensive to me, as a man, that you're basically calling men animals with no ability to control their sexual urges.

 

[Adam]

The reason, in general, women have these "feminine wiles" and have most of the power in a relationship is because most guys (including myself) are horny almost all the damn time! Most porn is geared towards us, strip clubs for us outnumber strip clubs for them, brothels in Nevada don't have male sex workers (or at least not many), and most girls discussing cute guys they see out and about do not immediately go to sex. That's why they have power. Not because it's some innate thing. We simply have an innate kryptonite. When they manipulate, which some do, it's because they are playing on that. When these pick-up artists manipulate, it's trading by pretending to be a good guy, the kind of guy they want to be with. One is using an innate weakness. The other is lying.

I don't even know where to begin with this post.

Let's start with that it was supposed to be on your side, and then show me where I am incorrect about the male sex drive versus the female sex drive.

The female sex drive isn't necessarily less than the male sex drive, it's just a bit more...refined. God knows my wife can't seem to get enough!

 

[phil]

I think what is wrong with the classes specifically is that they're most likely a scam aimed at men with confadence issues or d-bags who actually want to up their game.

I don't disaprove of the practice in general, depending on what exactly they're promoting. Creating a kind of larger than life persona, being a "balla" or whatever they seem to be teaching is only going to attract other people interested in that lifestyle. I'm not going to bag a smart, funny, attractive and all around ideal woman by doing what these guys tell me to do. I might get some bar skanks though, whom if they weren't leaving with me would leave with someone else.

To outright lie though, is wrong. If I tell a girl only what she wants to hear in order to sleep with her, well that would just make me a bigger ass than I can think of right now.

 

[Espy]

Just so you guys know, Gabe said today that he was more playing devils advocate.

I will say this, it's, in general much easier for girls to get stuff out of guys, go work in a restaurant and watch the girls rake in the cash from dudes at their tables with just a little flirting.

 

Just so you guys know, Gabe said today that he was more playing devils advocate.

I will say this, it's, in general much easier for girls to get stuff out of guys, go work in a restaurant and watch the girls rake in the cash from dudes at their tables with just a little flirting.

There are some things that I don't feel can be used as a legitimate "Devil's Advocate" defense. Lame excuse from someone taking a lot of heat?

 

[Espy]

No, he actually said that he was shocked at how much email he got from guys who said THANKS!

I'm not gonna butcher it, here you go:

Wow, just fucking wow.


I decided to play devil's advocate yesterday with Tycho just because that's something I enjoy doing. I think in reality I fall somewhere in the middle of this argument but that's not as much fun. What I didn't expect was to get flooded with mail from guys thanking me for sticking up for this system because they use it. I also got my share of mail from angry girls but honestly I expected that. I made some pretty ridiculous exaggerations for the sake of a silly argument. Just like any time we exaggerate for the sake of a joke, we end up offending people who don't see the humor in it. We've been doing this for ten years and so the angry mails were no surprise. It was the mails from guys thanking me that really threw me for a loop.

Like I said, I was trying to be ridiculous but in reality I guess I sort of hit on something. As someone who was diagnosed with, and currently takes medication for chronic anxiety I suppose I should have expected it. You can go back through the archive here and find my posts about anxiety. It was something I lived with for as long as I could remember and it was horrible. What I didn't really understand until I started taking medicine was that the constant worrying and anxiety had also lead to depression. Once I was on Lexapro I started to feel...well good and I finally had a frame of reference. When you're always depressed and worried you don't understand that there is any other way to feel. It probably sounds crazy to people who've never had to deal with it but it's true.

One of the effects of my anxiety was that I couldn't talk to girls. My wife Kara was the the first girl I ever went on a date with and the fact is I didn't even ask her out myself. My friends at the time knew that I liked her but also knew that I would never be able to ask her on a date. I was in my early twenties and I had never really talked to a girl for longer than a couple of minutes. My friends knew this and so like some kind of crappy romantic comedy they cooked up a plan to get us together. They told me that she wanted to meet me at a movie theatre and they told Kara that I wanted to meet her there. We ended up together watching Vegas Vacation and when she reached over to hold my hand I was literally fucking terrified.

What I'm realizing is that sort of anxiety is almost like a kind of class feature for nerds. I got tons of mail from guys who aren't using these systems to abuse girls or score one night stands. They are using them for the reasons that I listed jokingly. They really are trying to learn to be more confident and get past their anxiety with girls. They feel like all the douche bags out there give the system a bad name and more then one recommended a book called the Game by Neil Strauss. Where as I had pretty much given up on the idea of ever meeting a girl these guys are going out and trying to get help. I'm not sure how I can blame them for that.

In my exchange with tycho I was trying to do a bit, I was playing a part and I thought I was making a joke. I guess I was being a little more honest then I really understood. Now obviously I don't think women are evil witches ensorcelling men with their magic vaginas. I'm a 31 year old married guy with a kid and a much clearer view of the world thanks to the miracles of modern chemistry. What I can say to all the guys mailing me about this system is that the girls you're so terrified to talk to, are just as scared of you. I've got guys mailing me saying they don't know how long they should wait before calling a girl or if it's okay to ask for their phone number. They are worried about not understanding the rules of some imaginary game. My advice for what it's worth, is that the girls you really want aren't playing a game, and they won't expect you to play one either.

-Gabe out

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

Also, point of order - young dude bartenders or waiters get hella tips from little old ladies. My roommate raked it in from professors and families alike bartending.

 

I feel ya, Espy. I think that there's a lot of guys out there who related, but the fact remains that the OP is seriously fucked up.