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Israel Thread

Jan 5, 2017#1

Eriol

I figured a slightly less-than-biased thread title might be a good idea on this one. I searched, and what existed... wasn't. Consider this thread an omnibus for the topic if you wish.

Starting out with current events, so everybody here has probably heard about the UN Security Council resolution on Israel recently. Everything beyond 1967 is a violation of international law, etc. Interesting opinion piece on that topic in the Jerusalem Post: Obama’s role in the passage of UNSC Resolution 2334: Fake news or spin?

What's most interesting about this piece is the author. To spoil it: the former Ambassador to Israel from Canada. I didn't know that clicking on the piece.

Interesting points raised about the chain of events there. Basically, it looks like the USA engineered the resolution, or at least that's the accusation.

Jan 5, 2017#2

blotsfan

I'm Jewish and pro-Israel in the sense that I believe Israel has a right to exist. If you can't accept that it is a country and has the right to defend itself against people trying to destroy it, then we'll never see eye to eye.

However, I also see the Palestinians have their own land, and regardless about whose land it should be, it is for all intents and purposes, theirs. As long as Israel supports people going into Palestinian villages, kicks people out of their homes, and moves in, Israel can not claim it is acting in good faith with regards to a peaceful resolution.

Jan 5, 2017#3

Gruebeard

What he said is what I think too.

Jan 5, 2017#4

PatrThom

What he said is equivalent to my beliefs as well.

--Patrick

Jan 5, 2017#5

bhamv3

I concur with what has been said.

Except for the part about being Jewish.

Jan 5, 2017#6

Shakey

I too concur. I'm not Jewish either, but I'm told I look like I am.

Jan 5, 2017#7

Gared

Pretty much for me it comes down to "I don't like this resettlement business, but beyond that, I know next to nothing about the history surrounding this issue, religious or otherwise, so I'ma keep my ass out of this."

Jan 6, 2017#8

Eriol

blotsfan said:
However, I also see the Palestinians have their own land, and regardless about whose land it should be, it is for all intents and purposes, theirs. As long as Israel supports people going into Palestinian villages, kicks people out of their homes, and moves in, Israel can not claim it is acting in good faith with regards to a peaceful resolution.

I would say that's an overly-simplistic view of what most "settlement" is. The vast majority of the time (from what I can tell) it is setting up dwellings anywhere that is beyond that 1967 line, and most (all?) of the time that's new buildings, and most of the time on things that may have been classed as farmland (though if you look at before images, often nothing's been growing for... ever?). So while I can appreciate the idea that people say they're losing their land (which is true), it's not the same as purging a town and setting up shop in the same place, which it often is portrayed as.

Also one must keep in mind that said line goes through Jerusalem and a number of other large and significant places, and was a war armistice line, not something making more geographic sense in most cases.

And lastly, remember that the "acceptable line" for most (or many, or few, depending on who you believe) inside those territories is the Mediterranean Sea. As in, destruction of Israel entirely. So this is kind of a shell game as it is for large segments of their population (Hamas) who have their stated goal as the destruction of Israel entirely. And for the record, IMO any "right of return" is functionally equivalent to "the destruction of Israel" as well.

This is not an excuse that everything done by Israel on any post-1967 lands is fine, but it doesn't mean anything done there is by definition bad either IMO.

Jan 6, 2017#9

@Li3n

Eriol said:
it's not the same as purging a town and setting up shop in the same place, which it often is portrayed as.

Where is that the way it's often portrait?

Look the settlements, no matter where they put them, are a clear sign that the government doesn't want a 2 state solution, despite what they say.

Jan 6, 2017#10

mikerc

@Li3n said:
Where is that the way it's often portrait?

Well, in this very thread...

blotsfan said:
As long as Israel supports people going into Palestinian villages, kicks people out of their homes, and moves in, Israel can not claim it is acting in good faith with regards to a peaceful resolution.

Jan 6, 2017#11

@Li3n

mroosc1979 said:
Well, in this very thread...

Well, he should stop going here, it's clearly a very biased place...

Jan 6, 2017#12

GasBandit

I've said this before - I'm of the opinion that Palestine ceased to exist as a legitimate sovereign body when Arafat walked away from the Camp David accords despite being given everything he asked for in the agreement save the one condition that it be acknowledged that Israel has the right to exist - a position furthered by their embracing of Hamas as their governing body. It's long past time for the so-called "Palestinians" to either assimilate into Israeli society (as many have) or move elsewhere - but in either case recognize that "Palestine" no longer exists as a place or an identity. Their plight over the last 50 years has largely been prolonged and exacerbated by the surrounding Arab nations who refused to take in refugees during the conflicts because they were more useful being permanently disaffected so as to have no choice but to continue to wage a thinly veiled proxy war against Israel. Israel is our one true ally and our first bulwark against the spread of the archaic barbarism endemic to the middle east, and should be afforded every measure of support we can give. How our government has treated Israel over the last 8 years has been revolting.

Jan 7, 2017#13

@Li3n

GasBandit said:
Israel is our one true ally and our first bulwark against the spread of the archaic barbarism endemic to the middle east, and should be afforded every measure of support we can give.

Ah yes, if Israel wasn't there the middle easterners would just all invade the west... maybe in boats or something.

But hey, blindly supporting a regime has never ended badly...

GasBandit said:
I've said this before - I'm of the opinion that Palestine ceased to exist as a legitimate sovereign body when Arafat walked away from the Camp David accords despite being given everything he asked for in the agreement save the one condition that it be acknowledged that Israel has the right to exist - a position furthered by their embracing of Hamas as their governing body.

Well i'm glad you agree that if the population of a place has horrible ideas it's ok for someone else to take their land... i assume y'all will surrender peacefully to Canada on the 20th, right.

GasBandit said:
It's long past time for the so-called "Palestinians" to either assimilate into Israeli society (as many have)

Well your opinions did soften a lot over the years, but i didn't expect you to actually advocate multiculturalism so fervently.

Jan 7, 2017#14

blotsfan

GasBandit said:
It's long past time for the so-called "Palestinians" to either assimilate into Israeli society

The issue with that is that if every single Palestinian said "this isn't our land. We're Israeli citizens now" the right wing of the country (Bibi's party) would not be ok with that since Jews would be a minority. Its the issue of having a country that was founded for one specific religious group, but also allows religious freedom.

Jan 7, 2017#15

mikerc

GasBandit said:
It's long past time for the so-called "Palestinians" to either assimilate into Israeli society

The problem there is the possibility of "Palestinians" outnumbering Isreali Jews. And Isreal does NOT want its Jewish population to be outnumbered by Arabs in their own country.

Edit: ninjaed by @blotsfan

Jan 7, 2017#16

GasBandit

@Li3n said:
Ah yes, if Israel wasn't there the middle easterners would just all invade the west... maybe in boats or something.

You haven't paid attention at all to Europe over the last 10 or so years, have you.

Jan 7, 2017#17

@Li3n

GasBandit said:
You haven't paid attention at all to Europe over the last 10 or so years, have you.

Dude, really?

Jan 7, 2017#18

Gruebeard

@Li3n said:
Well i'm glad you agree that if the population of a place has horrible ideas it's ok for someone else to take their land... i assume y'all will surrender peacefully to Canada on the 20th, right.

I call dibs on Hawaii!

Jan 9, 2017#19

Eriol

I think this article is great because while I agree with some of it, I do NOT agree with a lot of it either: I am an Israeli Citizen

Israel will negotiate with Palestine their borders, which will be open. Israeli security will be from the river to the sea. Palestine will not bear arms. These are non-negotiable conditions. Bush and Obama accepted them as such. Even if they did not do so, as a sovereign state, we demand these security precautions. Without them, there will be no Palestine.

Basically, anytime you say to another state "you're a state, but we're your police force" they're not their own state. I understand why somebody in Israel may see that as essential, but that's just not a thing.Doesn't he remember how "well" (not well at all) the occupation of southern Lebanon went for decades? It was better after they left.
I'm sure others here can find lots they agree or disagree with as well.

Jan 9, 2017#20

@Li3n

What i don't get is what are the Israelis afraid off? They already kicked everyone's ass in the region, and getting a piece of paper that says Palestine recognizes their right to exist won't matter at all if the arabs are actually ever in a position to wipe them out.

Just give them their shitty land, and just influence them with your culture and economy, like the Americans do.

I mean the Irish language survived 800 years of British attempts at stamping it out, only for it to shrink to almost nothing in less then 100 after the Irish where no longer being forced to renounce it. Of course the leaders that signed the treaty for peace where planning to do that for Northern Ireland, but half the population revolted instead and they had a civil war that killed more people then the revolt against the British... so NI is still in the UK now... so i guess that's more of a hard sell to the idiots on your side, no matter how effective.

Jan 9, 2017#21

Eriol

Last thing before bed, from Canada of all places: Why would anyone ever think the Palestinians would accept a two-state solution?

His text describes in more detail what Gas referred to above about them getting everything they (say they) want in 2000, and refusing.

Jan 11, 2017#22

TommiR

GasBandit said:
I've said this before - I'm of the opinion that Palestine ceased to exist as a legitimate sovereign body when Arafat walked away from the Camp David accords despite being given everything he asked for in the agreement save the one condition that it be acknowledged that Israel has the right to exist

Not given quite everything they asked for, but like 90% of everything they asked for. The Palestinians saw the generous Israeli offer as a sign of weakness, and thought they could get more. A negotiating tactic, and one that ultimately failed with the coming into power of Sharon's administration in Israel, which was initially much less inclined to make such concessions.

Jan 11, 2017#23

@Li3n

Eriol said:
Last thing before bed, from Canada of all places: Why would anyone ever think the Palestinians would accept a two-state solution?

His text describes in more detail what Gas referred to above about them getting everything they (say they) want in 2000, and refusing.

I believe my previous post was meant to imply that they don't really need to give a shit about what the Palestinians really want. It's not like any of the other Arab states around them wouldn't jump at the chance to make Israel not be a country anymore.

Jan 24, 2017#24

@Li3n

And guess who is building more settlement homes: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-38734956

Feb 1, 2017#25

Eriol

Story from Canada: B.C. woodworking school rejects — then un-rejects — Israeli student because of ‘illegal settlement activity’

Basically, the guy's from Israel, so they rejected him. Media started paying attention, so they un-reject him. He tells them that he's not interested in the school anymore (for obvious reasons).

And it was probably illegal!

In either case, the Island School of Building Arts policy likely violated Canadian law. Under the B.C. Human Rights Code, for one, businesses are prohibited from discriminating based on “place of origin.”

Feb 8, 2017#26

Eriol

You had a guy talking in your congress recently on this:

May 2, 2017#27

Eriol

Hamas no longer calls for the active destruction of Israel, but still refuses to acknowledge it has a right to exist:
Reuters Story
Haaretz Story

Reuters said:
The Palestinian Islamist group Hamas on Monday dropped its longstanding call for Israel's destruction, but said it still rejected the country's right to exist and backs "armed struggle" against it.

In a policy document presented in Doha by its leader Khaled Meshaal, Hamas also said it would end its association with the Muslim Brotherhood, a move apparently aimed at improving ties with Gulf Arab states and Egypt, which view the Brotherhood as a terrorist group.

The difference in position between 'advocating for Israel's destruction' and 'still rejected the country's right to exist and backs "armed struggle" against it' seems pretty damned minute, especially given the ambiguity:

Reuters said:
It remained unclear whether the document replaces Hamas's 1988 charter, which calls for Israel’s destruction

So same old, same old. LOOK like you're doing something, but actually business as usual.

Jul 25, 2017#28

Eriol

Israel Ambassador to the UN gives a speech for the Security Council:

He basically says "when the Palestinian Authority stops paying $3000USD per month to the families of those who are terrorists, that will help a lot."

I wondered about the $3000/month thing, and it appears "fairly true" from googling: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund

Families of terrorists killed by Israeli security forces while they are murdering Israelis are paid stipends of about $800 to $1,000 per month. The families of convicted terrorists serving time in Israeli prisons receive $3,000 or higher per month.[16][12] According to Yossi Kuperwasser of the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, in 2017 the Palestinian Authority was paying out $300 million annually in terrorism stipends, which tallies to about 7 percent of the Authority's annual budget, and to more than 20% of the total foreign aid donations given to the Authority by all governments.[16]

...

In June, 2017, Palestinian Authority President Mahmood Abbas called efforts to stop the martyr payments an "aggression against the Palestinian people," and defended the salaries paid to to imprisoned Palestinians as a "social responsibility."[22]

There's more in the Wikipedia article than that of course, but that's the shortest part that still makes sense quoted.

Jul 25, 2017#29

Gruebeard

Eriol said:
He basically says "when the Palestinian Authority stops paying $3000USD per month to the families of those who are terrorists, that will help a lot."

Wow. The Palestinians are really stingy. We pay our terrorists millions. :trolol:

Aug 2, 2017#30

Eriol

Wasn't sure where to put this one, Trump thread or here, but I think here is slightly more appropriate, as while the comments go beyond Israel, the ones getting the biggest headlines are regarding Israel: Kushner On Middle East Peace: "What Do We Offer That's Unique? I Don't Know."

And again, all these people make arguments about why they feel the way they do. So as tensions were really mounting, I don't know if everyone is familiar, but there were two people—two Israeli guards killed at the Temple Mount (and that's the first time in many, many, many years that that happened, so Israelis [unintelligible] putting up metal detectors on the Temple Mount, which is not an irrational thing to do. You know when you have—police officers were just killed, and weapons that were used to [unintelligible] the weapons to check them—so then what happens is they start inciting it.

They say look, you know, this is a change to the status quo. The Temple Mount is a [unintelligible] occupation of Israel, and Israel was saying we don’t want anything to do with that, we just want to make sure people are safe. And that really incited a lot of tension in the streets.

So we're going to work with them [unintelligible] to take down the metal detectors there, and then I think one of the Palestinians' religious leaders was saying, “If you go through the metal detectors, then your prayers don’t count.” And that is not a very helpful thing to have said. And then there was a lot of rage. And there was an Israeli family that three people killed in their home, which was absolutely terrible. You know, so, "I'm going to do this to free the Temple Mount." So ultimately we were able to work with them, and we were able to get the Israelis to take down to the different forms of surveillance that the Jordanians were OK with, and we talked with the Palestinians the whole time to try to get their viewpoint on it.

And then ultimately they said, "OK, we took down the metal detectors but there's still a bridge up somewhere." And they said, "OK, we'll take that down, too." And so Bibi was getting beaten up by the press in Israel, because that was very politically unpopular for him to do. At the same time we got a situation in Jordan where an Israeli security diplomat in Jordan was attacked by two Jordanian men, and in self-defense he killed the attackers. So then it worked out where the Jordanians got the Israelis to accept their people from the embassy back to Israel

Full audio: Full Audio of Jared Kushner's Remarks to Congressional Interns

The text excerpts I read seem rather reasonable statements. Not super-insightful, but not collections of flaming bullshit either. I have not listened to the full audio.
X

Dec 5, 2017#31

Eriol

Trump phones Arab leaders to announce U.S. Embassy moving to Jerusalem

And that'll be a thing.

Dec 5, 2017#32

PatrThom

Eriol said:
Trump phones Arab leaders to announce U.S. Embassy moving to Jerusalem
And that'll be a thing.

Incredibly bold.
Too bad it’s Comic Sans.

—Patrick

Dec 21, 2017#33

Eriol

Canada among 35 abstaining from UN vote condemning American embassy move to Jerusalem

I haven't found an easy list of the countries that abstained yet.

Dec 21, 2017#34

Gruebeard

Eriol said:
Canada among 35 abstaining from UN vote condemning American embassy move to Jerusalem

I haven't found an easy list of the countries that abstained yet.

I'm gonna guess that they edited the article since you read it last, because, from the article:

The full list of abstaining countries was: Antigua-Barbuda, Argentina, Australia, the Bahamas, Benin, Bhutan, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Cameroon, Canada, Colombia, Croatia, Czech Republic, Dominican Republic, Equatorial Guinea, Fiji, Haiti, Hungary, Jamaica, Kiribati, Latvia, Lesotho, Malawi, Mexico, Panama, Paraguay, the Philippines, Poland, Romania, Rwanda, the Solomon Islands, South Sudan, Trinidad and Tobago, Tuvalu, Uganda and Vanuatu.

[DOUBLEPOST=1513880419,1513880244][/DOUBLEPOST]Also, Nay

The countries that voted with the United States against the resolution condemning its embassy move were Togo, Palau, the Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, Honduras, Guatemala and Israel.

And Yay

The United Kingdom, France, Germany, Ireland, Belgium, Portugal, Spain and China all voted to condemn the move of the American embassy as part of a total of 128 countries voting in favour of the resolution.

Dec 21, 2017#35

Gruebeard

I wanna say, I'm rather surprised that Argentina abstained. I'm curious about their reasons for not wanting to piss off America

Dec 21, 2017#36

PatrThom

Gruebeard said:
I'm curious about their reasons for not wanting to piss off America

Same as everyone else's reason. We'll come for their oil (even if it IS loaded with sulphur).

--Patrick

Dec 21, 2017#37

Gruebeard

PatrThom said:
Same as everyone else's reason. We'll come for their oil (even if it IS loaded with sulphur).

--Patrick

Well sure, but that hasn't stopped Argentina from trying to piss you off every other day. There's got to be something special going on, it seems to me.

Dec 21, 2017#38

Eriol

PatrThom said:
Same as everyone else's reason. We'll come for their oil (even if it IS loaded with sulphur).

That doesn't explain many of them. Uganda for instance.

Dec 21, 2017#39

Gruebeard

Eriol said:
That doesn't explain many of them. Uganda for instance.

They're concerned about Trump's supporters pining for the good old days.

Apr 10, 2019#40

blotsfan

Israel can fucking burn.

Apr 10, 2019#41

Dave

Can we get some more clarification on this statement?

Apr 10, 2019#42

blotsfan

The fascists get to stay in power.

Apr 10, 2019#43

Dave

Well, they were elected so...

Apr 10, 2019#44

blotsfan

Dave said:
Well, they were elected so...

Yeah after widespread discrimination and voter intimidation.

And even if so, that just adds to my argument that the country can burn for all I care.

Apr 10, 2019#45

Dave

Good thing that could never happen here.

Apr 10, 2019#46

blotsfan

Dave said:
Good thing that could never happen here.

You sure got me, the ultimate defender of America.

Apr 10, 2019#47

Bubble181

Hitler was elected, too. "They were elected, so..." is not a valid defense of democracy. Democracy can only properly work in an environment with different opinions being accepted, multiple, suffering, viable choices, and free media and education to inform people. And yes, the USA is facing the same issue, more and more.
Elections don't mean a thing if they don't actually present a choice or the voters are unable to form an intelligent opinion.

Electing someone who openly and clearly states he wishes to invade and occupy nearby regions, deport the populace or force them into camps to work, over made-up "historical rights" and ethnic similarities, that's Nazi Germany anno 1938. That a majority of Israelites can actually vote in favor of such policies is sickening.

Apr 10, 2019#48

GasBandit

Slight difference in that the Nazis had to convince everyday Germans that they were under attack. Israel has literally been under attack since its founding to this day. There is literally no acceptable end to this conflict according to Israel's "neighbors" (and never has been) other than the complete annihilation of Israel and the eradication of the Jewish people. That's been made abundantly clear numerous times.

Remember when Clinton arranged for Israel to give Palestine literally everything on its wish list, including a Palestinian state, and Arafat walked away from the table because the deal's only request of him was to admit that Israel had a right to exist?

Apr 10, 2019#49

blotsfan

GasBandit said:
There is literally no acceptable end to this conflict according to Palestine's "neighbors" (and never has been) other than the complete annihilation of Palestine and the eradication of the Palestinian people. That's been made abundantly clear numerous times.

This is the official stance of the Israeli government.

Apr 10, 2019#50

GasBandit

blotsfan said:
This is the official stance of the Israeli government.

Except that's clearly false. As I said... Arafat walked away from a treaty that gave Palestine a state because it would remove their cassus belli against Israel. That was basically the moment when Palestine stopped existing as anything other than a rallying mcguffin for terrorists.

There is no Palestine, and the Palestinians don't want one unless it is literally built on the bones of every single Jew in the middle east.

Apr 10, 2019#51

blotsfan

So because of what happened 20 years ago by someone that has been dead for 15 years, genocide is ok?

Apr 10, 2019#52

GasBandit

blotsfan said:
So because of what happened 20 years ago by someone that has been dead for 15 years, genocide is ok?

Assimilate. Into Israel (it's been done, a lot), or Jordan, or Egypt, or Lebanon (maybe not Syria). And it's time for the UN to tell those neighboring countries to stop exacerbating the situation by keeping Palestinians in refugee camps on the border instead of taking them in.

Apr 10, 2019#53

blotsfan

GasBandit said:
Assimilate. Into Israel (it's been done, a lot), or Jordan, or Egypt, or Lebanon (maybe not Syria). And it's time for the UN to tell those neighboring countries to stop exacerbating the situation by keeping Palestinians in refugee camps on the border instead of taking them in.

Bibi and his party have been working to effectively strip Israeli arabs of their citizenship.

Apr 10, 2019#54

PatrThom

blotsfan said:
So because of what happened 2000 years ago...

FTFY

--Patrick

Apr 10, 2019#55

Gruebeard

Fucking Romans!

Apr 10, 2019#56

GasBandit

Gruebeard said:
Fucking Romans!

"Romanes eunt domus?" The people called romans they go the house?

Apr 10, 2019#57

sixpackshaker

Gruebeard said:
Fucking Romans!

What did they ever do for us?

-I had a colonization of Africa class and the asshole professor played that skit in class.

Apr 10, 2019#58

jwhouk

blotsfan said:
So because of what happened 20 years ago by someone that has been dead for 15 years, genocide is ok?

You're off by a few thousands of years, bucko.

EDIT: You'll notice I said thousands, there, Blotsboy.

Apr 10, 2019#59

blotsfan

jwhouk said:
You're off by a few thousands of years, bucko.

EDIT: You'll notice I said thousands, there, Blotsboy.

So that justifies the genocide the Bibi is trying to implement? I'm sorry, I'm not sure how this works.

Apr 10, 2019#60

jwhouk

I didn't say it justifies it. I said this argument has gone on for millennia.

Apr 11, 2019#61

@Li3n

GasBandit said:
Slight difference in that the Nazis had to convince everyday Germans that they were under attack. Israel has literally been under attack since its founding to this day. There is literally no acceptable end to this conflict according to Israel's "neighbors" (and never has been) other than the complete annihilation of Israel and the eradication of the Jewish people. That's been made abundantly clear numerous times.

So the problem with the Holocaust was that the Jewish leadership didn't actually plan to take over the world?

GasBandit said:
Remember when Clinton arranged for Israel to give Palestine literally everything on its wish list, including a Palestinian state, and Arafat walked away from the table because the deal's only request of him was to admit that Israel had a right to exist?

As i said before, Israel can just let them be a separate state and not give a fuck about them not recognizing anything, since it's not like giving them independence will actually threaten Israel (see: Six-Day War).

And it's not like any of the other states around them recognize their right to exist.

Sep 10, 2019#62

blotsfan

We work with multiple evil countries in the Middle East. Israel is one of them.

Sep 10, 2019#63

Dave

Israel is like that friend of yours that's been in your life for a long time and one day you look at him & go, "Why do I like this guy? He's an asshole." Yet you have to keep pretending you're friends because he has all the dirt on you and let's you crash at his place in a bad neighborhood.

Sep 10, 2019#64

Bubble181

Dave said:
Israel is like that friend of yours that's been in your life for a long time and one day you look at him & go, "Why do I like this guy? He's an asshole." Yet you have to keep pretending you're friends because he has all the dirt on you and let's you crash at his place in a bad neighborhood.

Yeah, but Israel's arguably been a dick to everybody around 'm since arguably 1968.

By which I'm by no means saying "it's all israel's fault", because most of the surrounding countries are cunts, too.

Aug 17, 2020#65

blotsfan

He actually said it.

Aug 17, 2020#66

jwhouk

...oy vey.

Aug 17, 2020#67

figmentPez

And Evangelicals still won't get it.

Aug 17, 2020#68

jwhouk

I do, thank you very much.

Aug 17, 2020#69

Krisken

Fucking asshole, stay out of my state.

Aug 18, 2020#70

blotsfan

I don't know why you people are marking it funny.

Aug 18, 2020#71

Bubble181

blotsfan said:
I don't know why you people are marking it funny.

Well, it's laugh or cry, so....

Aug 18, 2020#72

PatrThom

blotsfan said:
I don't know why you people are marking it funny.

Everything Trump touches turns to comedy.

--Patrick

Aug 18, 2020#73

jwhouk

Krisken said:
Fucking asshole, stay out of my state.

Ditto. And your loony veep.

May 13, 2021#74

blotsfan

So uhhhh...shits bad

May 13, 2021#75

Frank

Yeah, I'm loving all the tearful goodbyes being posted to social media. Most folk trapped in Gaza aren't hedging their bets on living through this.

May 13, 2021#76

ThatNickGuy

I keep wanting to understand the conflict, but it's literally thousands of years old and I...just don't understand it at all. I keep trying to find maybe videos that explain it, but they get so complicated so quickly, throwing around leaders and other names so fast that I get overwhelmed.

May 13, 2021#77

Cheesy1

ThatNickGuy said:
I keep wanting to understand the conflict, but it's literally thousands of years old and I...just don't understand it at all. I keep trying to find maybe videos that explain it, but they get so complicated so quickly, throwing around leaders and other names so fast that I get overwhelmed.

May 13, 2021#78

Frank

Quick story, the current dust-up is over more homes being fought over by Israeli settlement groups who were mostly given the land by Israeli authorities after declaring any land owned by Jews (in this case by some religious groups who had claims going back to the 1800s) and the people who already lived there post Jordan resettling Palestinians who had fled the area during those troubled 40s.

The IDF has used the opportunity to apparently annihilate as much infrastructure as possible. Makes resettling an area easier.

On your tax dollar 'Mericans, remember that too.

May 14, 2021#79

D

Dubyamn

ThatNickGuy said:
I keep wanting to understand the conflict, but it's literally thousands of years old and I...just don't understand it at all. I keep trying to find maybe videos that explain it, but they get so complicated so quickly, throwing around leaders and other names so fast that I get overwhelmed.

It's colonialism. Bunch of Europeans going to a place and claiming it despite there already being people there. Then they proceed to brutalize and ethnically cleanse the people there. Oh and it's also an ethnostate.

May 15, 2021#80

Bubble181

Dubyamn said:
It's colonialism. Bunch of Europeans going to a place and claiming it despite there already being people there. Then they proceed to brutalize and ethnically cleanse the people there. Oh and it's also an ethnostate.

You're aware that calling the Israelites Europeans is... Very questionable, right? They may have partially been scattered across Europe, they must definitely never considered themselves European. And due to some very effective ethnic cleansing about 75 years ago, most modern day Jews have at minimum mixed roots.
It's still European colonialism in the sense that France and England just decided to create a state and stuff people there with no thought to the ones already there.
Lastly, claiming colonialism can only come from Europeans is also way off.

May 15, 2021#81

@Li3n

Bubble181 said:
You're aware that calling the Israelites Europeans is... Very questionable, right? They may have partially been scattered across Europe, they must definitely never considered themselves European.

They've been in Europe for almost 2 millennia. That's longer the some other Europeans, like the Hungarians. So they're at the very least European Jews. Just like there are North African Jews.

Bubble181 said:
It's still European colonialism in the sense that France and England just decided to create a state and stuff people there with no thought to the ones already there.

Wait, are we still pretending they didn't fuck up the Middle East on purpose?

Bubble181 said:
Lastly, claiming colonialism can only come from Europeans is also way off.

Yeah, that's true.

May 15, 2021#82

blotsfan

My god.

May 15, 2021#83

Celt Z

Bubble181 said:
You're aware that calling the Israelites Europeans is... Very questionable, right? They may have partially been scattered across Europe, they must definitely never considered themselves European.

You know, normally I'd agree with this, but I remember an incident back when I worked at Lehman: one of my jobs was setting up the international video conferencing. The call was with an office in Israel, and to set up the calls on our system, you had to search by region. I searched everywhere I thought it could be, and finally had to call the admin to contacted me to tell her I wasn't able to find it preprogrammed in our system. The admin, who was Israeli-born, got very huffy with me and said it was listed in Europe (which it was). When I said that it was odd, why was it under Europe?, she got border-line pissed off and said that Israel is European. ....at that point, I REALLY didn't want to pursue that conversation any longer, so I shut my mouth and finished the reservation.

(Also, I feel like I my have mentioned this story before, but it bares repeating that for some people the line of European/not European isn't as cut-and-dry as we might think.)

May 15, 2021#84

Frank

blotsfan said:
My god.

lol, the fucking building's already gone.

Also, there's something really disturbing about the IDF posting on Twitter excusing war crimes like they're a Twitch streamer who used the "heated gamer word".

May 15, 2021#85

D

Dubyamn

Bubble181 said:
You're aware that calling the Israelites Europeans is... Very questionable, right? They may have partially been scattered across Europe, they must definitely never considered themselves European. And due to some very effective ethnic cleansing about 75 years ago, most modern day Jews have at minimum mixed roots.

They were born in Europe, their parents were born in Europe and they carried with them European citizenship. The fact that Europeans were anti-semetic monsters doesn't make them not European.

*edit* It also bothers me that you believe that saying that people from Europe are European is more problematic than "They weren't European, They were Jews. We had a whole genocide about it."

It's still European colonialism in the sense that France and England just decided to create a state and stuff people there with no thought to the ones already there.
Lastly, claiming colonialism can only come from Europeans is also way off.

Yeah yeah defend European colonialism. World would be much better if Europeans had just stayed where they were.

May 15, 2021#86

blotsfan

Celt Z said:
You know, normally I'd agree with this, but I remember an incident back when I worked at Lehman: one of my jobs was setting up the international video conferencing. The call was with an office in Israel, and to set up the calls on our system, you had to search by region. I searched everywhere I thought it could be, and finally had to call the admin to contacted me to tell her I wasn't able to find it preprogrammed in our system. The admin, who was Israeli-born, got very huffy with me and said it listed was in Europe (which it was). When I said that it was odd, why was it under Europe?, she got border-line pissed off and said that Israel is European. ....at that point, I REALLY didn't want to pursue that conversation any longer, so I shut my mouth and finished the reservation.

(Also, I feel like I my have mentioned this story before, but it bares repeating that for some people the line of European/not European isn't as cut-and-dry as we might think.)

For all international sports, Israel is considered Europe because the middle eastern countries won't play them.

May 15, 2021#87

Frank

Biden's press secretary used to work for an Israeli spy company, so you know, cool.

May 15, 2021#88

PatrThom

What I wonder is how this will affect Intel.
...and also Qualcomm and Marvell, to some degree.

--Patrick

May 16, 2021#89

Ravenpoe

May 16, 2021#90

Frank

May 16, 2021#91

Frank

They didn't target the big hospital in Gaza luckily, only all the surrounding roads and buildings, making it useless.

May 16, 2021#92

blotsfan

Frank said:
They didn't target the big hospital in Gaza luckily, only all the surrounding roads and buildings, making it useless.

But the roads were Hamas headquarters.

May 16, 2021#93

chris

Israel targets the underground tunnel system of the Hamas. And these tunnels are underneath streets and homes of civilians.

May 17, 2021#94

Frank

This is the kind of shit where you totally get why many minority groups don't give a shit about elections.

May 20, 2021#95

BErt

Jesus fucking Christ

May 20, 2021#96

bhamv3

In my experience, the physical attractiveness of an individual has no correlation with his or her capacity to cause harm.

Also, I've seen hotter.

May 20, 2021#97

BErt

bhamv3 said:
Also, I've seen hotter.

With 4 simple words, bhamv escalated the Israel/Taiwan war

May 20, 2021#98

MindDetective

This thread really sums up the complicated nature of the conflict, I think. Bad guys on both sides. Innocents on both sides. It is a mess.

May 21, 2021#99

Frank

Hopefully this doesn't end the ceasefire like it's probably intended to.

May 21, 2021#100

Frank

Just in case you weren't sure where the power in this situation lies.

The AP fired a reporter (who is Jewish) days after the Israeli government bombed a building housing their offices into rubble, because she was critical of Israel's government in college.

May 21, 2021#101

ScytheRexx

This brings up the thing that annoys me the most about all the conversations on this, and that's the fact Israel isn't Judaism. Israelis are Jewish, yes, but they are not Judaism itself, anymore then say Iran is Islam or the United States is Christian.

It really burns my craw every time we equate the bad shit a nation does and then latch onto the religion aspects because it brings the wrong narrative. People in the US are not angry at Israel because they are Jewish, you can't call someone critical of Israel an anti-Semite just like you can't call a person critical of Iran an Islamophobe. I saw people screaming at Jewish people supporting Palestine as "traitors" and it just pisses me off.

I am super critical of religion as a whole these days, and I feel that a lot of our biggest disagreements would go away if religion as a concept just vanished overnight, but as long as we have to deal with it we should at least focus on the fact these are nations doing shit that also happen to follow a religion, not a religion in itself.

May 21, 2021#102

Dave

I'm leaning more and more towards the "fuck Israel" side of things. Note that this this has nothing to do with their religion. Their government is just acting evil.

May 21, 2021#103

ScytheRexx

Dave said:
I'm leaning more and more towards the "fuck Israel" side of things. Note that this this has nothing to do with their religion. Their government is just acting evil.

Honestly I feel like Israel has been turning into a pretty intense ethnostate more then anything, which considering the origins of the modern state of Israel, feels terribly ironic in the worst way possible.

I watched a video recently posted by a Jewish woman who decided to go on vacation to Israel, and she was surrounded and mocked by a bunch of Israelis. Why? Her husband was black. They screamed the couple were infiltrators, and demanded they leave the country. I never even knew Israelis' had an n-word, but now I do.

May 21, 2021#104

MindDetective

Frank said:
Just in case you weren't sure where the power in this situation lies.

The AP fired a reporter (who is Jewish) days after the Israeli government bombed a building housing their offices into rubble, because she was critical of Israel's government in college.

That doesn't seem as cut-and-dried to me as you seem to think it is. It is possible this was vindictive, yes, but it is so one-sided I can't even tell.

May 21, 2021#105

Frank

Here's her interview if you want her side.

'I was just canceled': An interview with Emily Wilder

Wilder was fired from the AP and told she violated their social media policy.

www.sfgate.com

May 21, 2021#106

Ravenpoe

ScytheRexx said:
This brings up the thing that annoys me the most about all the conversations on this, and that's the fact Israel isn't Judaism. Israelis are Jewish, yes, but they are not Judaism itself, anymore then say Iran is Islam or the United States is Christian.

It really burns my craw every time we equate the bad shit a nation does and then latch onto the religion aspects because it brings the wrong narrative. People in the US are not angry at Israel because they are Jewish, you can't call someone critical of Israel an anti-Semite just like you can't call a person critical of Iran an Islamophobe. I saw people screaming at Jewish people supporting Palestine as "traitors" and it just pisses me off.

I am super critical of religion as a whole these days, and I feel that a lot of our biggest disagreements would go away if religion as a concept just vanished overnight, but as long as we have to deal with it we should at least focus on the fact these are nations doing shit that also happen to follow a religion, not a religion in itself.

More Jews live in New York than live in Israel.

May 21, 2021#107

MindDetective

Frank said:
Here's her interview if you want her side.

'I was just canceled': An interview with Emily Wilder

Wilder was fired from the AP and told she violated their social media policy.

www.sfgate.com

It seemed like she was employed at the AP building that was bombed the way that everyone was talking about her. Nor did anything say which thing she once said went over the line. The naked mole rat line? Maybe. *shrug* It is speculation since they are being tight-lipped about it.

It does sound like her editor couldn't protect her from higher-ups that didn't want to face conservative criticisms, though. That does seem very cowardly to me, on the part of those higher-ups.

May 21, 2021#108

D

Dubyamn

MindDetective said:
It seemed like she was employed at the AP building that was bombed the way that everyone was talking about her. Nor did anything say which thing she once said went over the line. The naked mole rat line? Maybe. *shrug* It is speculation since they are being tight-lipped about it.

That is the way it works when they refuse to talk about it. Though if they had a reason for the firing that's better then she made posts in college thry probably would have said it instead of just letting this reasoning continue.

It does sound like her editor couldn't protect her from higher-ups that didn't want to face conservative criticisms, though. That does seem very cowardly to me, on the part of those higher-ups.

Sounds like everyone in the organization is chickenshit. Editors and coworkers alike.

May 21, 2021#109

Tinwhistler

May 21, 2021#110

PatrThom

Still as powerful now as it was eight years ago.

--Patrick

May 22, 2021#111

figmentPez

BErt said:
Jesus fucking Christ

It gets worse:

She's a catgirl.

May 22, 2021#112

bhamv3

I've seen hotter catgirls.

May 22, 2021#113

BErt

bhamv3 said:
I've seen hotter catgirls.

With 4 simple words, bhamv escalated the Catgirl/Taiwan war

May 22, 2021#114

Krisken

There are more fronts in this war than I imagined.

May 25, 2021#115

Frank

Lol, the New Yorker made famous for being in the video where he defends being allowed to steal someone's home in Jerusalem is of course, a huge, massive piece of Covid denying, extreme right wing shit. What a shock. I am in awe.

May 25, 2021#116

Tiger Tsang

Captain Reynolds would space that turd so damn quick if he fits through the airlock.

May 26, 2021#117

Dave

Dude thinks he'd be a brown coat but he'd most definitely be working for the Alliance.

May 26, 2021#118

GasBandit

Dave said:
Dude thinks he'd be a brown coat but he'd most definitely be working for the Alliance.

He looks more like one of the obstreperous nitwits Mal picked a fight with in episode 1.

May 26, 2021#119

blotsfan

No he'd be a brown coat alright.

May 26, 2021#120

Tiger Tsang

blotsfan said:
No he'd be a brown coat alright.

Pray tell, show your math on this equation.

May 26, 2021#121

jwhouk

The other type of Braun Mantel.

May 26, 2021#122

GasBandit

Tiger Tsang said:
Pray tell, show your math on this equation.

It's probably something along the lines of why my stepmother (who is black) does not enjoy Firefly - because a very good argument could be made that the browncoats are a thinly veiled lionization of the post-reconstruction confederacy,

May 26, 2021#123

jwhouk

Nein, mein freund. Think "BRAUNS HEMD"

May 26, 2021#124

MindDetective

GasBandit said:
It's probably something along the lines of why my stepmother (who is black) does not enjoy Firefly - because a very good argument could be made that the browncoats are a thinly veiled lionization of the post-reconstruction confederacy,

Cowboys who lost the war and don't trust the government they were once fighting against? Yeah, I an see it.

May 26, 2021#125

GasBandit

MindDetective said:
Cowboys who lost the war and don't trust the government they were once fighting against? Yeah, I an see it.

And if you're a person who has it in their head that the civil war was "the war of northern aggression" it's even more "apparent."

May 26, 2021#126

Tiger Tsang

Those are examples of Folks that haven't read any dystopian future SF where Corporations control every aspect of your life, where you are a 'corporate drone or the trash outside the corporate structure'
is that better MD

May 26, 2021#127

MindDetective

Tiger Tsang said:
Folks that haven't read any dystopian future SF where Corporations control every aspect of your life where you are a 'corporate drone or the trash outside the corporate structure'

Sentence fragment. Consider revising.

May 28, 2021#128

Shakey

Part One: What the Netanyahu Family Did To Palestine - Behind the Bastards | iHeart

<p>Robert is joined by Dana El Kurd to discuss the Netanyahu Family, Zionism and Palestine.</p><p>FOOTNOTES:</p><ol> <li><a href='https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-18008697net'>https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-18008697net</a></li> <li><a...

www.iheart.com

May 30, 2021#129

Shakey

Just finished part two. Holy shit. I knew it was bad, but it’s amazing how much of what they’re doing is able to be completely ignored by the media.

Jul 3, 2021#130

Frank

They waited enough time for people to look away.

Jul 13, 2021#131

Timmus

Shakey said:
Just finished part two. Holy shit. I knew it was bad, but it’s amazing how much of what they’re doing is able to be completely ignored by the media.

You/ve got fine taste in podcasts my man.

Jul 22, 2021#132

Frank

So, how many US states do you think are going to test their anti-Israel boycott laws on Ben and Jerry and see if they hold even the slightest bit of water.

I learned that there are 35 US states that have these laws on the books.

Jul 22, 2021#133

blotsfan

Of all the laws that are blatantly unconstitutional, anti BDS ones are maybe the most blatant. “You HAVE to do buisness with this country no matter what.”

Jul 22, 2021#134

Bubble181

blotsfan said:
Of all the laws that are blatantly unconstitutional, anti BDS ones are maybe the most blatant. “You HAVE to do buisness with this country no matter what.”

Look, refusing service is all well and good if it's because the other is gay or trans or...urban (wink wink nudge nudge youknowwhatimean) or something. Merely being part of an evil invasion force pushing innocent civilians off their own lands, stealing houses and property, breaking a dozen international treaties is no reason at all.

Jul 22, 2021#135

jwhouk

This may explain why I haven’t seen my chocolate chip cookie dough cups in the freezer lately.

Jul 26, 2021#136

Frank

In a shock to no one, here comes Desantis.

Jul 26, 2021#137

MindDetective

blotsfan said:
Of all the laws that are blatantly unconstitutional, anti BDS ones are maybe the most blatant. “You HAVE to do buisness with this country no matter what.”

I agree, although government contracts with the States in question may be a different matter.

Jul 26, 2021#138

MindDetective

Frank said:
In a shock to no one, here comes Desantis.

This is the guy that wants to replace Trump and not waste the opportunity like Trump did.

Jul 26, 2021#139

Tress

Keep the government out of private industries!

…unless the industry in question is supporting a cause that is traditionally aligned with Democrats, in which case fuck ‘em. Have the government overreach as far as it can go.

Jul 26, 2021#140

PatrThom

]DeSantis] also said that if the companies don’t “cease the boycott of Israel as required by Florida law” after being placed on its Scrutinized Companies List, the agency “must refrain from acquiring any and all Unilever assets consistent with the law.”

That's a lot.

--Patrick

Sep 14, 2021#141

Frank

Israeli firm unveils armed robot to patrol volatile borders

An Israeli defense contractor has unveiled a remote-controlled armed robot it says can patrol battle zones, track infiltrators and open fire.

apnews.com

New robot ATVs with machine guns strapped to a turret on them. Do you think they'll show more or less humanity to Palestinians than the IDF already does?

I know they're remote controlled. Also, it's pretty hard to be less humane than the IDF.

Sep 14, 2021#142

jwhouk

So, my only question is, it's okay for me to keep buying Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream, right?

May 13, 2022#143

Frank

News at 11, Israel fucking sucks. Charging in and assaulting a funeral procession for someone they murdered or as American media has put it "died after being struck in the head by a bullet."

May 13, 2022#144

Krisken

A clear example of becoming the thing you hate.

Oct 17, 2023#145

blotsfan

Man, fuck Israel huh?

Oct 17, 2023#146

Frank

Yeah, I saw a little bit of the aftermath with the doctors and the bodies.

Cool world.

Oct 17, 2023#147

Shakey

BUT HAMAS!

Oct 27, 2023#148

blotsfan

Israel cut off all telecommunications in Gaza. The last reports indicated that the bombing intensified.

Oct 27, 2023#149

D

Dubyamn

blotsfan said:
Israel cut off all telecommunications in Gaza. The last reports indicated that the bombing intensified.

Jesus they already were bombing at a crazy rate.

Nov 15, 2023#150

blotsfan

Oh.

Nov 15, 2023#151

phil

blotsfan said:
Oh.

Iseal and I have different definitions of controlled demolition

Nov 15, 2023#152

chris

phil said:
Iseal and I have different definitions of controlled demolition

Well it's a demolition they had the control of. A controlled demolition.

Dec 13, 2023#153

D

Dubyamn

Hey remember when in the Winter Soldier Hydra was using AI to select targets for assassination from the sky?
Cause apparently that’s exactly what Israel is doing.

Dec 13, 2023#154

Tress

Ya know, when your tactics line up with Hydra and Skynet, it’s not a good look. This is a “Are we the baddies?” kind of moment.

Feb 2, 2024#155

Frank

So, all of our countries are super cool with genocide now eh.

This rules.

Feb 2, 2024#156

chris

Frank said:
So, all of our countries are super cool with genocide now eh.

This rules.

All of our countries were OK with it in the past.

Feb 2, 2024#157

Frank

That's true. It just sucks really bad watching them embrace it and how so many people are cheering it on.

Feb 2, 2024#158

GasBandit

Feb 2, 2024#159

Bubble181

This is (yet another) one of those conflicts where, really, there are no good side and bad side.
Sure there are (innocent) civilians on both sides, but the armed parties in the conflict can all drop dead and in average the world world be a slightly better place.
And in this conflict, even the innocence of a high amount of the civilians on both sides is questionable.

Neither side can really hold much of a moral high ground here.

Feb 2, 2024#160

Frank

I'm sure the 25,000 dead kids (and the hundreds of thousands starving) in Gaza appreciate that the situation isn't black and white.

Actually, fuck this mealy mouthed bullshit.

The IDF and the Israeli government are bad. Rotten to the genocidal core.

While West Bank settlers continue to murder people for their homes, the few that are left.

Feb 2, 2024#161

Bubble181

Frank said:
I'm sure the 25,000 dead kids (and the hundreds of thousands starving) in Gaza appreciate that the situation isn't black and white.

Actually, fuck this mealy mouthed bullshit.

The IDF and the Israeli government are bad. Rotten to the genocidal core.

While West Bank settlers continue to murder people for their homes, the few that are left.

Absolutely true.
The also dead thousands of Israeli, including children and teenagers falling victim to the biggest terrorist attack in the West since 9/11 might feel like Hamas aren't entirely innocent either though.

The IDF are the Evil Empire reigning down destruction and death, sure. They're also the result of a traumatized nation facing multiple existential crises over the past decades. The USA killed far more and destroyed much more in a completely unconnected country for something like this.

I'm not being mealy mouthed. I'm not trying to say either side isn't all that bad.
Both sides here are rotten to the core, both sides have killed children, both sides have raped women, both sides have committed war crimes. Israel just has more money and better equipment and USA backing so they can commit more crimes with less repercussions.

Feb 2, 2024#162

Shakey

Bubble181 said:
And in this conflict, even the innocence of a high amount of the civilians on both sides is questionable.

The last election in Gaza was in 2006, that was almost 18 years ago. Before the conflict, the median age in Gaza was 18 years old. 70% of the population was under the age of 30. I would say that very few of the people in Gaza had any say in having Hamas in charge of their government.

Feb 2, 2024#163

blotsfan

Bubble181 said:
The also dead thousands of Israeli, including children and teenagers falling victim to the biggest terrorist attack in the West since 9/11 might feel like Hamas aren't entirely innocent either though.

The latest death count is at 600-700 people and Israeli witnesses have said that a lot of the deaths were IDF soldiers firing at them.

Feb 3, 2024#164

Bubble181

blotsfan said:
The latest death count is at 600-700 people and Israeli witnesses have said that a lot of the deaths were IDF soldiers firing at them.

So you're deliberately leaving out the 7/10 attack? Nice to know how openly you'll twist the numbers.

Feb 3, 2024#165

blotsfan

I was specifically talking about that attack.

Feb 3, 2024#166

Bubble181

... So then you're not counting the security personnel who died? The official death toll is 1.134 people killed, 248 captured hostage. That's 1.400 victims, aka roughly half a 9/11, in a country smaller than New York.

But again, I'm not defending either side. Everyone involved is terrible.

Feb 3, 2024#167

D

Dubyamn

Bubble181 said:
I'm not being mealy mouthed. I'm not trying to say either side isn't all that bad.
Both sides here are rotten to the core, both sides have killed children, both sides have raped women, both sides have committed war crimes. Israel just has more money and better equipment and USA backing so they can commit more crimes with less repercussions.

Both sidesing in the middle of a genocide is incredibly mealy mouthed.

Nobody here is a fan of Hamas. Nobody here is going to think you’re a Hamas supporter. You don’t have to virtue signal by saying both sides are bad. You can just say Israel is committing a genocide.

Feb 3, 2024#168

Shakey

And let’s not forget that Israel was allowing cash payments to Hamas, and wanted them to stay in power, in hopes that something like this would happen so they could justify leveling Gaza and killing everyone there.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/11/middleeast/qatar-hamas-funds-israel-backing-intl/index.html

Feb 3, 2024#169

Bubble181

Dubyamn said:
Both sidesing in the middle of a genocide is incredibly mealy mouthed.

Nobody here is a fan of Hamas. Nobody here is going to think you’re a Hamas supporter. You don’t have to virtue signal by saying both sides are bad. You can just say Israel is committing a genocide.

I'm not here supporting anyone.
One side is actively committing genocide, and the other side would be if they could.

Feb 3, 2024#170

Dave

As I said before, Israel has become a terrorist state that oppresses the Palestinian people. Hamas is an actual terrorist organization. In between are the Palestinian people who have done nothing and deserve none of this. But they also largely support Hamas and that sucks. But can you fucking blame them?!? Hamas is willing to fight the oppressors who are taking their land and killing their people. But that doesn't make the actions of Hamas right or not evil.

It's not mealy mouthed to recognize that there are terrible things going on from both sides, although at this time Israel have upped the ante from asshole maneuvers to outright genocide.

Feb 3, 2024#171

PatrThom

Dave said:
can you fucking blame them?!? Hamas is willing to fight the oppressors who are taking their land and killing their people. But that doesn't make the actions of Hamas right or not evil.

John Dillinger would destroy the mortgage paperwork at the banks he would rob as a way of doing the bank's customers a "favor" during the Great Depression, but...same.

--Patrick

Feb 3, 2024#172

D

Dubyamn

Dave said:
As I said before, Israel has become a terrorist state that oppresses the Palestinian people. Hamas is an actual terrorist organization. In between are the Palestinian people who have done nothing and deserve none of this. But they also largely support Hamas and that sucks. But can you fucking blame them?!? Hamas is willing to fight the oppressors who are taking their land and killing their people. But that doesn't make the actions of Hamas right or not evil.

It's not mealy mouthed to recognize that there are terrible things going on from both sides, although at this time Israel have upped the ante from asshole maneuvers to outright genocide.

If you can’t see how it’s mealy mouthed to say in the middle of a genocide “yeah genocide is bad but the people being genocided are real pieces of shit” then I don’t really know what to say that could convince you. I’m being generous when I say it’s mealy mouthed because it’s the best reason for saying it at this time.

Feb 3, 2024#173

D

Dubyamn

Bubble181 said:
I'm not here supporting anyone.
One side is actively committing genocide, and the other side would be if they could.

Never said you were supporting anyone. Just that you were being mealy mouthed in your condemnation of an active genocide as you weakly say both sides are bad.

Feb 3, 2024#174

Bubble181

Yeah yeah, always point out the worst side and just ignore the other or you're "both siding" the issue.
I'm both sliding this issue because both sides are fucked up.
I'm not trying to diminish the bad done by the IDF by saying "yeah but the other side's done some pretty shady things too!"
I'm saying both sides are absolutely craptastic assholes who pretty much deserve each other. And yes, there are innocents caught in the crossfire,and it's sad for them. HAMAS are absolute terrorists, on the level of Al Queda and Isis. The IDF are murderous, fascist goons on the level of the nazis and the modern day Russians.

In the Russia-Ukraine conflict, while there are some fascist asses on the UKR side and they're by no means all innocent angels, it's easy to say the Russians are the aggressor and the Bad Guy, who is clearly worse. In the Hamas-Israel conflict, there's no good guy side. Innocents are dying, and that's bad, but otherwise, if all of Hamas was to suicide and take all of the IDF with them... Not much of value world be lost.

I used to have some Israeli friends. Once they went into the IDF, they just turned brainwashed beyond all recognition.

Feb 4, 2024#175

D

Dubyamn

The sides aren’t Israel and Hamas it’s Israel and the Palestinian people who are being actively genocided. Your both sidesing the issue is completely erasing that fact. And you can barely summon up enough of a single fuck to write a single sentence about how “it’s sad for them.” A people who are right now being genocided in front of your eyes.

Feb 4, 2024#176

Dave

So are people in China. So are people in Zimbabwe. So are people in Ukraine. So are people in at least three other countries with ethnic strife and oppression. There’s literally nothing that I can do about any of it.

And it absolutely IS Israel vs Hamas, even if it’s the Palestinian people who are taking the brunt. Israel has been shit for a long time but it was the absolutely insane terrorist attack AGAINST Israel that kickstarted this recent wave of genocidal acts by the Israeli government.

I’m curious as to why this conflict is so one-sided in your mind, like the Palestinian people haven’t supported Hamas - which right or wrong they absolutely do. And I frankly don’t blame them. Hamas is the only real entity standing up to Israel so of course they’ll be supported as freedom fighters. But their chilling and shortsighted tactics from the attack have cooled any support they would have received or deserved.

Feb 4, 2024#177

blotsfan

Israel's goal isn't to stop Hamas. Its to clear gaza of palestinians. Their governement officials openly talk about it when they arent trying to get US tax dollars.

Feb 4, 2024#178

Shakey

Dave said:
I’m curious as to why this conflict is so one-sided in your mind, like the Palestinian people haven’t supported Hamas - which right or wrong they absolutely do. And I frankly don’t blame them. Hamas is the only real entity standing up to Israel so of course they’ll be supported as freedom fighters. But their chilling and shortsighted tactics from the attack have cooled any support they would have received or deserved.

The Palestinians in Gaza elected Hamas in the last election 17 years ago. There hasn't been an election since then. That means anyone 35 or younger hasn’t been able to have any say in whether they want them in charge or not. 70% of the population in Gaza is that age or younger.

Saying they absolutely support Hamas when they haven’t been able to voice their support is exactly what Israel wants.

It’s why they allowed for cash to flow directly to Hamas. Having Hamas in charge is what excuses them from killing indiscriminately. They all support Hamas, so it’s their fault.

Feb 4, 2024#179

D

Dubyamn

Dave said:
So are people in China. So are people in Zimbabwe. So are people in Ukraine. So are people in at least three other countries with ethnic strife and oppression. There’s literally nothing that I can do about any of it.

And it absolutely IS Israel vs Hamas, even if it’s the Palestinian people who are taking the brunt. Israel has been shit for a long time but it was the absolutely insane terrorist attack AGAINST Israel that kickstarted this recent wave of genocidal acts by the Israeli government.

I’m curious as to why this conflict is so one-sided in your mind, like the Palestinian people haven’t supported Hamas - which right or wrong they absolutely do. And I frankly don’t blame them. Hamas is the only real entity standing up to Israel so of course they’ll be supported as freedom fighters. But their chilling and shortsighted tactics from the attack have cooled any support they would have received or deserved.

You don’t commit genocide against a government you commit it against a people. If you’re sincere about believing it’s a genocide then you can’t believe it’s a fight between Israel and Hamas.

Hamas is a problem but it’s not the problem we should be concerned with which is the genocide of the Palestinians. It’s also a problem of Israel’s making. Israel supported Hamas in its early years. Israel doing a unilateral pull out lead to Hamas taking control of Gaza and then never giving it up. And it was Israel that allowed millions to flow straight to Hamas from Qatar. And then even after decades of using Hamas as a partner to prevent a real option of a Palestinian state from happening. I think it’s one sided because it is. Israel propped up a terrorist group that hates them for the sole purpose of keeping a Palestinian statehood movement from gaining real ground so Israel could keep on scooping up West Bank land and it blew up in their face as they had IOF troops protecting West Bank settlers building a Sukkah in the middle of a Palestinian town instead of defending Israel against an attack that both Egyptian and US intelligence agencies had warned them about.

And you’re wrong if you think Israel’s actions have cooled or diminished support Hamas has risen in Gaza. Don’t know how reliable polls are in the middle of a genocide but polls show that support for Hamas and Oct 7th attacks have increased. Because of course they fucking would.

Feb 4, 2024#180

PatrThom

blotsfan said:
Israel's goal isn't to stop Hamas. Its to clear gaza of palestinians. Their governement officials openly talk about it when they arent trying to get US tax dollars.

A coworker of mine is Jordanian, and this is his take on it as well--that this conflict is not ideological in nature, it is expansionist.

--Patrick

Feb 4, 2024#181

Frank

These are the things that have happened in the 9 days since the ICJ declared that some genocide might be going on and that Israel had to take steps to prevent it.

Feb 5, 2024#182

Frank

Feb 5, 2024#183

Ravenpoe

Frank said:

Remember kids, it's only a war crime if someone with enough power cares to call it that.

Feb 6, 2024#184

Frank

Israel's evidence that UNRWA members took part in the Hamas attacks? There wasn't any, but that didn't stop the world from pulling funding.

Feb 19, 2024#185

Bubble181

Whoops, Israel just decided to blow up some Hezbollah weapon storages in the middle of living neighborhoods in Lebanon. Guess Rafah wasn't enough so they had some ammo to spare.

Mar 1, 2024#186

D

Dubyamn

Over 100 Palestinians killed by Israeli troops while waiting for food aid.

And over 700 wounded in the massacre. Starving people fucking slaughted.

Mar 29, 2024#187

D

Dubyamn

Video of Israel drone striking four unarmed Palestinians.

Somebody want to talk about how Israel is “just defending themselves?” Or how it’s actually very complicated?

Mar 29, 2024#188

Bubble181

Look, these four were unarmed right now, but they could have picked up a rock to throw at the drone at any time. This was just protecting our property by preemptively striking potential perpetrators. The US police does this all the time!

Apr 1, 2024#189

Frank

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/hinting-at-syria-strikes-gallant-says-israel-will-expand-the-campaign-against-hezbollah/

Well, now that worldwide support is sinking like a stone, Israel seems to be trying to bait local countries into the conflict.

Apr 2, 2024#190

D

Dubyamn

Israel attacked another aid convoy. Killing 7 humanitarian workers and forcing the World Central Kitchen to halt aid. Netenyahu claims the strike was unintended but it fits really nicely in with Israel using famine as a weapon of war.

Apr 2, 2024#191

Bubble181

"whoops, we really didn't intend for those bombs to hit Iran...And those other ones to hit a bunch of international aid workers. Teehee!"

You've got literally the most technologically advanced army in the world (thanks to the USa using your army as a test site). Your bombs don't accidentally hit anything.

Apr 3, 2024#192

GasBandit

"Oops, that was an accident."

"Three times in a row by accident?"

Basically Israel is targeting relief workers because they want to use famine as a weapon.

Apr 3, 2024#193

HCGLNS

GasBandit said:
"Oops, that was an accident."

"Three times in a row by accident?"

Basically Israel is targeting relief workers because they want to use famine as a weapon.

You're missing the part where WCK communicated their route ahead of the departure with everyone, including Israel. Times, vehicles and identifications.

It's just murder.

Apr 3, 2024#194

Bubble181

"Oh, yeah, the accident was using our own missiles instead of shooting ones that made it look like Hamas, not the targeting itself, of course".

Apr 4, 2024#195

@Li3n

Bubble181 said:
And those other ones to hit a bunch of international aid workers. Teehee!"

Don't worry, they apologised:

Here's video of it too:

Apr 4, 2024#196

Krisken

I call bullshit.

Apr 4, 2024#197

PatrThom

Beg forgiveness, etc.

--Patrick

Apr 5, 2024#198

GasBandit

Yeah turns out, no human shields. Just IDF killing civilians.

Apr 5, 2024#199

Bubble181

Yeah, the Lavender AI program is pretty much a walking talking war crime. It (and its like) should be banned for the same reasons we banned land mines, chlorine gas, etc.

Apr 6, 2024#200

Krisken

When your fear causes you to become what you hate...

Apr 18, 2024#201

blotsfan

Israel has attacked Iran.

Apr 19, 2024#202

Frank

Iran pretending nothing happened, thank God.

Apr 19, 2024#203

Bubble181

Frank said:
Iran pretending nothing happened, thank Allah

Apr 19, 2024#204

Frank

Same entity.

Apr 24, 2024#205

@Li3n

Arab speaking Christians use the same word, because it just means God.

Apr 25, 2024#206

Frank

Boy, it's a lot easier to make America mad at students than it is to cover up atrocities.

Guess that's why that's the news now.

The more things change.....

Apr 29, 2024#207

GasBandit

Apr 30, 2024#208

GasBandit

Mass Arrests After Pro-Israel Inciter Shouts ‘Kill the Jews’

Around 100 protesters were arrested on Saturday at a pro-Palestine encampment at Northeastern University, but not the one whose hate speech got everything shut down.

www.thedailybeast.com

Apr 30, 2024#209

GasBandit

Senior State Department officials warned that they don’t have “credible or reliable” assurances that Israel is using U.S.-provided weapons in accordance with international law. Under a National Security Memorandum that Biden issued in February, Secretary of State Antony Blinken must determine whether Israel is using U.S. weapons “in a manner consistent with all applicable international and domestic law and policy, including international humanitarian law and international human rights law.” Blinken must tell Congress by May 8 whether he has certified the assurances to be credible and reliable. Four bureaus – Democracy, Human Rights and Labor; Population, Refugees and Migration; Global Criminal Justice; and International Organization Affairs – raised “serious concern over non-compliance” with international humanitarian law during the war. Their assessment cited eight examples of Israeli military actions that raise “serious questions” about potential violations of international humanitarian law, such as repeatedly striking protected sites and civilian infrastructure, “unconscionably high levels of civilian harm to military advantage,” and “killing humanitarian workers and journalists at an unprecedented rate.” The assessment also cited 11 instances of Israeli military actions that “arbitrarily restrict humanitarian aid,” including rejecting aid trucks due to a single “dual-use” item, “artificial” limitations on inspections, and repeated attacks on humanitarian sites that should be protected. Meanwhile, a coalition of lawyers called on Biden to cut off military aid to Israel, arguing that its actions in Gaza violate U.S. law, including the Arms Export Control Act and Leahy Laws, as well as international humanitarian law prohibiting disproportionate attacks on civilian populations. (Reuters / CNN)

Apr 30, 2024#210

GasBandit

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu asked Biden to help stop the International Criminal Court from issuing arrest warrants for senior Israeli officials – including himself. The ICC launched an investigation three years ago into possible war crimes by both Israel and Palestinian militants dating back to the 2014 Israel-Hamas war. Israeli officials reportedly believe that the ICC is preparing to issue warrants for senior government officials, include Netanyahu, Defense Minister Yoav Gallant, and Israel Defense Forces Chief of Staff Herzi Halevi. (Axios / New York Times / NBC News / Bloomberg)

U.S. determined that five Israeli security units committed human rights violations before outbreak of Gaza war. The “State Department has determined that five Israeli security units committed gross violations of human rights prior to the outbreak of the war with Hamas in Gaza, but is still deciding whether to restrict military assistance to one of the units under US law.” (CNN / Washington Post)

May 2, 2024#211

BErt

May 3, 2024#212

BErt

Joe Biden, The Great Unifier

May 3, 2024#213

GasBandit

Biden needs to understand that if he "supports protesting" but doesn't support protests that disrupt normal activity, he doesn't actually support protests.

It's supposed to be the REPUBLICANS that think murder is an acceptable response to property destruction but property destruction isn't an acceptable response to murder.

May 3, 2024#214

Ravenpoe

This plays in my head every time he talks about Isreal.

May 3, 2024#215

Dave

When it comes to politics, all the democrats have to do is keep calm and not fuck up and they will win. Why can't they do that?

May 3, 2024#216

GasBandit

May 4, 2024#217

Frank

Just posting war crimes to social media, no big deal. Some heinous shit in here.

By the way, incredible presentation by Bellingcat.

“We’ve Become Addicted to Explosions” The IDF Unit Responsible for Demolishing Homes Across Gaza - bellingcat

Bellingcat investigates the demolitions carried out by the IDF in Gaza.

www.bellingcat.com

May 4, 2024#218

GasBandit

May 7, 2024#219

GasBandit

May 7, 2024#220

GasBandit

May 9, 2024#221

Frank

May 9, 2024#222

GasBandit

May 10, 2024#223

Bubble181

GasBandit said:

Look what you're making me do! I don't want to do this, you're forcing my hand! I have to commit war crimes now because one of two of our dozens of planned weapon deliveries are temporarily on hold! Look at all the poor children you're making me kill!

May 10, 2024#224

Vrii

It's not even "this will make me commit warcrimes" it's "this won't stop me from committing war crimes and they'll be bigger out of spite." Just awful.

May 12, 2024#225

GasBandit

Biden – acknowledging that U.S. weapons have been used to kill civilians in Gaza – threatened to cut off shipments of American weapons to Israel if Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu orders a full-scale invasion of Rafah. More than a million displaced Palestinians are currently sheltering in the southern Gaza city. Until now, which follows months of growing tension and frustration with Israel’s management of the war, Biden has resisted calls to limit U.S. support of Israel’s efforts to go after Hamas amid a humanitarian crisis in Gaza. The Biden administration has also said for months that it would not support an operation in Rafah unless Israel presented a credible plan to evacuate and protect civilians living in the area. “I made it clear that if they go into Rafah – they haven’t gone in Rafah yet – if they go into Rafah, I’m not supplying the weapons that have been used historically to deal with Rafah, to deal with the cities – that deal with that problem,” Biden said. “Civilians have been killed in Gaza as a consequence of those bombs and other ways in which they go after population centers,” Biden added, referring to 2,000-pound bombs that he paused shipments of last week. On Tuesday, Israeli troops seized control of and closed the Rafah border crossing in what the White House characterized as a limited operation – short of the full invasion of the city. Since then, negotiations for a hostage and ceasefire deal have paused, in part because of the fighting in Rafah, and no aid has entered through Gaza’s southern crossings. The WHO and other humanitarian aid agencies warned that hospitals in southern Gaza have less than three days of fuel supplies left and without fuel “all humanitarian operations will stop.” Meanwhile, Netanyahu, who has vowed to achieve a “total victory” over Hamas and said the country’s military would enter Rafah “with or without” a ceasefire deal, reacted with defiance to Biden’s warning, saying: “If we need to stand alone, we will stand alone.” The IDF’s spokesman added that Israel already had the “necessary weapons” for its planned operations, “including in Rafah.” (CNN / New York Times / Washington Post / Associated Press / CNN / NBC News / ABC News / Politico / Wall Street Journal)

May 13, 2024#226

GasBandit

May 14, 2024#227

GasBandit

A State Department report said it was “reasonable to assess” that Israel had used American-provided weapons in Gaza that are “inconsistent” with international law. The report, however, stopped short of officially saying Israel violated the law, saying there was insufficient information to draw firm conclusions in any specific instances. The report concluded that Israel’s assurances that it’s not violating U.S. or international law were “credible and reliable.” The finding allows the continued supply of U.S. weapons to Israel. (Washington Post / NPR / Associated Press / CNN / NBC News / Politico)

May 16, 2024#228

GasBandit

The Biden administration plans to move forward with the sale of more than $1 billion in arms and ammunition to Israel. It’s expected to take several years before any weapons in the package are delivered. The notification of the potential sale, however, comes less than a week after the White House withheld a shipment of 3,500 bombs over concerns Israel would use them in a potential invasion of Rafah, where more than 1 million refugees have been sheltering. The new, proposed package includes about $700 million for tank ammunition, $500 million in tactical vehicles, and $60 million in mortar rounds. (Wall Street Journal / Associated Press / Politico / Washington Post / New York Times / USA Today)

May 16, 2024#229

Bubble181

Yeah, the Biden administration really seems to actively be doing anything they can to get Trump re-elected. I mean, I understand the Jewish lobby is strong in America and so on, I know the US won't suddenly be pro-Palestine, but coming off as this waffley just means you'll alienate both the "progressive" left wing who's pro-Palestine and the moderate and right wing pro-Israel voters. This was a lose-lose move and I don't get it. Plus it makes the whole "line in the sand" once again toothless thus making Biden look weak, which was already one of his big flaws.
Really, just pause all weapon delivery plans/agreements/whatever until after the ~~vote~~ war has ended and you could have at least scored some points on one side and come off as being willing to stand your ground which would've scored some points in the center. But nooooo.

And even internationally it's a terrible look. Selling weapons to a regime which you acknowledge is using them "not in line with international law and conventions" just gives Russia, Iran and China even more munition to make you seem all talk and no act.

May 20, 2024#230

BErt

I don't think "if we allow them to arrest war criminals, we might be next" is getting across the point he thinks it is.

May 21, 2024#231

figmentPez

Israel seizes Associated Press equipment and block live video of Gaza

"We remain concerned about the Israeli government’s use of the foreign broadcaster law and the ability of independent journalists to operate freely in Israel,” said Lauren Easton, vice president of corporate communications at the news organization.

May 21, 2024#232

GasBandit

I'm sure Israel is very concerned about their concern.

May 29, 2024#233

figmentPez

Atlantic talks about killing children legally.jpg

May 29, 2024#234

GasBandit

The International Court of Justice on Friday ordered Israel to immediately halt its military assault on Rafah, citing an “immediate risk” to Palestinians. Then on Sunday, two Israeli airstrikes on a tent camp where displaced civilians were sheltering ignited a deadly fire that killed at least 45 people and wounded 249 other people in Rafah, the Gaza city where more than 1 million people are seeking refuge in dire conditions. Israeli tanks also advanced into central Rafah for the first time. Despite international condemnation and world leaders calling for an investigation into the attack and for Israel to halt its military offensive in Rafah, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said that the strike was “a tragic accident,” but gave no indication of curtailing his offensive in Rafah. The Israeli military said the strike used “precise munitions” to kill two senior Hamas leaders, and claimed “our munitions alone could not have ignited a fire of this size” – suggesting that a secondary explosion — possibly of a weapons cache — was likely the cause of the fire. Biden, meanwhile, is not altering his policy toward Israel and the White House said the Israeli strike on a tent camp hadn’t violated his “red line” because it wasn’t “a major ground operation.” The White House, however, suggested that the attack on “innocent Palestinians [is] heartbreaking” and that “Israel must take every precaution possible to protect civilians.” (New York Times / CNN / NBC News / Wall Street Journal / Axios)

May 31, 2024#235

GasBandit

May 31, 2024#236

GasBandit

Jun 1, 2024#237

Sara_2814

figmentPez said:
View attachment 48302

I read that article. Nice how they give you absolutely no context for the partial sentence and don't even cite the article so you can read it yourself.

The UN's Gaza Statistics Make No Sense by Graeme Wood, https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/05/gaza-death-count/678400/

It's an article about the difficulty in getting accurate death statistics, because Hamas isn't completely trustworthy but neither is Israel. There is difficulty in estimating the number of unidentified/unaccounted for dead (as opposed to identified dead):

Neither Hamas source, Adesnik writes, has fully explained where it gets its estimate of the number of unaccounted-for dead: more than 10,000 people. During the war, hospitals have stopped functioning, and keeping people alive has taken higher priority than keeping defensible statistics. But these numbers matter—first, because of the dignity of those killed or still living, and second, because total deaths and the ratio of combatant to noncombatant deaths will have implications for judgments about alleged war crimes and genocide.

(Graeme Wood is a heartless asshole, amirite?)

And then the article discusses how Israel is not allowing embedded journalists with its military, and the author compares that to the US allowing embedded journalists in Iraq and Afghanistan to report on what is actually happening. The section with this partial sentence follows that discussion.

Israel currently embeds zero journalists in Gaza. It isn’t legally obligated to let journalists join its frontline units. But it doesn’t let journalists into Gaza independently, either. “To allow journalists to report safely,” an Israeli military spokesperson told me, the Israel Defense Forces “accompany them when on the battlefield.” He would not say how many journalists had in fact been allowed to accompany IDF units—let alone accompany them on regular operations, rather than short press tours of battle sites after the action. When Hamas alleges that Israeli soldiers are shooting everyone in sight, and murdering families by flattening buildings devoid of military purpose, it can point to the dead children. Israel can deny the charge and hope that the world trusts it over an avowed terrorist group. The world seldom obliges.

To rebut Hamas’s allegations by letting journalists see the war up close would be a calculated risk. Even when conducted legally, war is ugly. It is possible to kill children legally, if for example one is being attacked by an enemy who hides behind them. But the sight of a legally killed child is no less disturbing than the sight of a murdered one. And Israel has discovered that shutting out the press carries its own risks. An infanticide that no one can see is also going to attract suspicion. Unsympathetic observers will think Israel is conducting its war in the manner of other countries whose counterinsurgent forces have preferred to work out of view of independent media. Russia did this in the Second Chechen War; Sri Lanka, in its civil war. Both countries’ militaries had much to hide.

Yes, Wood and The Atlantic are obviously monsters for...*actually reads full paragraph*... criticizing Israel for not allowing journalists to observe its actions in Gaza.

I thought deliberate misquotes and misinformation tactics--and attacking journalists in general--was something we criticized the Trumpers for? Jesus Fucking Christ.

Jun 5, 2024#238

GasBandit

Jun 5, 2024#239

GasBandit

Biden suggested that there is “every reason for people” to conclude that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is dragging out the war in Gaza to cling to power. The statement came in an interview with Time magazine, which was published three days before Biden revealed the details of the “Israeli plan” to bring a permanent ceasefire and hostage exchange. Netanyahu, however, has since publicly distanced himself from the deal. Biden also said although “a lot of innocent people have been killed,” he was “uncertain” whether Israel had committed war crimes. The House, meanwhile, passed legislation to sanction International Criminal Court officials for seeking arrest warrants against senior Israeli officials, including Netanyahu. Biden opposes sanctions and the bill will likely fail in the Senate, but 42 House Democrats broke with their party and voted with Republicans for it. (Politico / New York Times / NBC News / Axios / Washington Post / CNN / Mother Jones)

Jun 6, 2024#240

Frank

It kicks so much ass that Israel is rejecting Israel's ceasefire proposal. Israel is a very tough negotiator though.

Jun 7, 2024#241

GasBandit

An Israeli airstrike on a school operated by the United Nations for displaced Palestinian refugees in Gaza killed at least 40 people, including women and children. The Israel Defense Forces said its forces launched a “precise strike” targeting a group of about 30 Hamas militants. The IDF claims Hamas was using “three classrooms” as a base inside the U.N. school. Despite footage showing bodies wrapped in blankets or plastic bags being laid out in lines in the courtyard of the hospital, an Israeli military spokesperson said he was “not aware of any civilian casualties” as a result of the strike. The Biden administration, meanwhile, said it does not have “independent verification of what exactly occurred,” but that it is talking with the Israelis to “try to get a better understanding.” (Associated Press / CNN / New York Times / Washington Post / NBC News)

Jun 8, 2024#242

GasBandit

Jun 8, 2024#243

GasBandit

Jun 11, 2024#244

GasBandit

Jun 11, 2024#245

PatrThom

I'm sure there's always that group of people the fascists talk about like, "Oh, those guys? Yeah, they think they're special, but we just keep them around because they're useful."

--Patrick

Jun 12, 2024#246

GasBandit

Jun 18, 2024#247

GasBandit

Jun 24, 2024#248

GasBandit

Jul 29, 2024#249

blotsfan

Israel tried to arrest some soldiers for gang-raping palestinian prisoners. It turned into a standoff between the soldiers at the base and the epople trying to arrest them that they had to bring in military units that were in Gaza. Many prominent Israeli politicians (though not netanyahu) are calling for the rapists to be freed with all charges dropped.

Aug 21, 2024#250

GasBandit

Aug 31, 2024#251

GasBandit

Israel's still shooting at clearly identified press

Reminder: The IDF fired two tank rounds at a group of "clearly identifiable journalists" last year, murdering one and injuring 6: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/13/israel-broke-international-law-journalist-killed

The Press Association of the United States would like to thank the United States for buying them all those bullets

Sep 30, 2024#252

GasBandit

Oct 1, 2024#253

Bubble181

"a special, limited military organization across the border to ensure our nation's security"
Netanyahu is now literally just copy pasting Putin's logic and we all stand aside and watch it happen.

Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorist organizations (or, they have other branches and aspects as well but have a weaponized terror branch which controls most of their actions, at the very least).
I will not shed a tear of both of them cease to exist.

That doesn't give Israel the right to continuously bombard and now put boots on the ground in other countries.
This is a - bad - remix of the Ukraine War with the Afghan War and some seven-days war thrown in for good measure.
We've long passed the 50,000 dead civilians landmark. The Middle East will remain contentious and a bloodbath for another few generations, and we're all guilty of letting it happen under the guise of anti-terrorism and self-défense.

Oct 1, 2024#254

D

Dubyamn

Bubble181 said:
"a special, limited military organization across the border to ensure our nation's security"
Netanyahu is now literally just copy pasting Putin's logic and we all stand aside and watch it happen.

Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorist organizations (or, they have other branches and aspects as well but have a weaponized terror branch which controls most of their actions, at the very least).
I will not shed a tear of both of them cease to exist.

That doesn't give Israel the right to continuously bombard and now put boots on the ground in other countries.
This is a - bad - remix of the Ukraine War with the Afghan War and some seven-days war thrown in for good measure.
We've long passed the 50,000 dead civilians landmark. The Middle East will remain contentious and a bloodbath for another few generations, and we're all guilty of letting it happen under the guise of anti-terrorism and self-défense.

I don’t believe that Israel will be here in a generation. Businesses are shutting down at just a stunning rate due to a lack of workers available and international businesses are moving away from dealing with Israeli businesses. The IOF was already having problems with recruitment back in June so their military has to be flagging. Then they open up a new front in the war? Against an enemy with an actual military that already fought them to a stand still 18 years ago?

I don’t see anyway this turns out well for Israel.

Oct 8, 2024#255

GasBandit

Oct 18, 2024#256

Frank

Remember when we used to argue whether Israel targeted a hospital.

Innocent times.

Oct 19, 2024#257

Frank

Oct 19, 2024#258

Krisken

Frank said:
Remember when we used to argue whether Israel targeted a hospital.

Innocent times.

My dude, I remember when we argued about steak and how to hang toilet paper. That feels.so quaint these days.

Oct 19, 2024#259

Bubble181

Krisken said:
My dude, I remember when we argued about steak and how to hang toilet paper. That feels.so quaint these days.

Don't claim those questions have been settled, you filthy well done abuser of good beef.

Oct 19, 2024#260

Krisken

Bubble181 said:
Don't claim those questions have been settled, you filthy well done abuser of good beef.

My good man, you have misremembered what side of that debate I was on.

Oct 19, 2024#261

Bubble181

Krisken said:
My good man, you have misremembered what side of that debate I was on.

Hey man, I can't help what the Wiki says :troll:

Oct 19, 2024#262

GasBandit

Bubble181 said:
Hey man, I can't help what the Wiki says

HhhhHHMMMMmmmmHMMMm...

Oct 19, 2024#263

Bubble181

I can honestly, cross my heart and hope to die, say that I am currently not in Zaventem or even in the province of Vlaams-Brabant.

Other than that, I'm currently not available for comments :whistling:

Oct 20, 2024#264

Frank

Yeah, I've seen too many videos of IDF soldiers gunning down fleeing children, or using wounded kids as bait.

We're (North Americans specifically) all just sitting around while our governments fund and equip the greatest evil humans can enact on one another. Kamala Harris has promised to keep the death flowing and Canada's likely next Prime Minister has called what Israel's doing divine justice. Flagrantly too. Publicly targeting aid workers and doctors, civilians, CHILDREN. Every crime you can commit in a war (war, lol) they are.

I legit am having a hard time living with myself right now for doing nothing but bitch on a forum.

And it's only one of what? A dozen or so active genocides currently going on.

Oct 20, 2024#265

Frank

lol the genocide will continue until morale improves.

Opinion | 65 Doctors, Nurses and Paramedics: What We Saw in Gaza

“Nearly every day I was there, I saw a new young child who had been shot in the head or the chest, virtually all of whom went on to die.”

www.nytimes.com

Executing preteens

Oct 20, 2024#266

ThatNickGuy

Frank said:
lol the genocide will continue until morale improves.

Her position feels so goddamn pro-Israel, it's sickening.

What's sad is it's STILL the better position compared to Trump's full-fledged support that it wouldn't shock me if he wanted to just nuke Gaza or something.

She's still very much the lesser of two evils in this situation, but fucking hell.

Oct 20, 2024#267

Frank

ThatNickGuy said:
Her position feels so goddamn pro-Israel, it's sickening.

Palestinians died or were killed. Israelis were slaughtered and murdered.

There is no lesser of two evils on this position. It's evil and evil. One does it with a smile while pretending to care and the other doesn't.

Oct 20, 2024#268

ScytheRexx

The issue is, as a politician, she can't jeopardize our position in the region. You pull back from Israel and suddenly the whole country is gone. It sucks ass, the whole situation, but it's a damned if you do and damned if you don't because whoever you side with is going to piss off a large group of voters either way. One of the big problems of a huge tent.

It also ignores that Biden and Harris have been attempting very hard to get a ceasefire going without being seen as pulling support, but Netanyahu keeps turning them down because Trump has been calling him and promising him more support and less roadblocks towards finishing the job once he is elected. The fact no one has been arrested for any of this behind the scenes dealing is pissing me off, but I've come to realize our DOJ it's too damn afraid of looking partisan in an election year to actually do anything about it. We have to vote and then hopefully when the smoke settles and if we still have a country we can put more of a fire under Netanyahu's ass.

Oct 20, 2024#269

Frank

Attempting very hard to get a ceasefire going.

Fucking. Please.

Biden using Trump language when even confronted with the complete and unconditional support of the genocide by saying as recently as a few months ago that "nobody has done more for Palestinians than me"

If they actually have been trying (they haven't) the most powerful country in the world has failed for a year to force a ceasefire, instead just continuously funding and equipping it to the count of billions of dollars.

Israel is attacking UN positions now flagrantly, demolishing positions held by Peacekeepers.

Oct 20, 2024#270

ScytheRexx

I understand your frustration man, but I don't think you feel anything outside of the complete dissolution of Israeli support and a televised press conference condemning Netanyahu is going to be enough. Neither of those things can happen in this political environment unless we want Trump to just help finish the job next year and have Israel annex Gaza entirely.

There have been countless ceasefire resolutions (including Blinken flying out since the Sinwar assassination for another round) and Biden has been caught basically calling Netanyahu a terrible person and a liar, all the while Trump has been undermining ceasefire efforts constantly using his direct line to Netanyahu. I know it feels like a lot of hot air most of the time but it's the shit show we are stuck in.

What else can he do that does not lead to the dissolving of western interests in the region?

Oct 20, 2024#271

Frank

I'm sorry I draw my line at actively supporting genocide, which is what the United States is doing, unconditionally.

STOP A WEAPON SHIPMENT OR TWO. SHOW THAT THEY'RE ACTUALLY SERIOUS.

They aren't.

Oct 20, 2024#272

ScytheRexx

You get no disagreement from me there, if I had superpowers I would be the first one over there doing something, but instead I am stuck in a weird ass situation where I either vote for people who are lukewarm about the whole situation or someone who openly wants to turn the entire region into new beachfront real estate after they bulldoze out all the corpses.

The only pro Palestinian candidate is Jill Stein, and she's only doing it specifically on the behalf of Putin as a spoiler to make sure that Trump wins. We are in a fucked up situation all around.

Oct 20, 2024#273

PatrThom

ThatNickGuy said:
it wouldn't shock me if [Trump] wanted to just nuke Gaza or something.

Trump said:
“You have to finish up your war,” Trump told the Israel Hayom in an interview that the right-wing newspaper said had been recorded over the weekend. “You have to finish it up, you got to get it done.”

source

--Patrick

Oct 21, 2024#274

Frank

You got 30 days to knock off the heinous crimes against humanity or we will continue to give you everything you want and need to continue the heinous crimes against humanity.

Oct 21, 2024#275

Frank

Oct 21, 2024#276

Frank

Just razing all neighboring villages now.

Oct 21, 2024#277

Frank

Frank said:

@PatrThom

I guess it's gone, it was a video of a child dying in the middle of the street from drone fire. When several people came to help the crying kid, a missile hits them. The aftermath is a black scar on the ground and a pile of body parts and endless screaming from everyone else around.

Just a reminder of what the lesser of two evils has enabled for a year.

Oct 21, 2024#278

Frank

More hospitals to meet more missiles.

Oct 21, 2024#279

Frank

Loading…

www.cnn.com

Awwww those poor soldiers suffering like this.

The former soldier has spoken publicly about the psychological trauma endured by Israeli troops in Gaza. In a testimony to the Knesset, Israel’s parliament, in June, Zaken said that on many occasions, soldiers had to “run over terrorists, dead and alive, in the hundreds.”

Not to minimize the fucking trauma, but imagine what the people fucking living there are going through after you've performed your acts of incredible barbarity.

He maintains that the vast majority of those he encountered were “terrorists.”

Yeah, try to rationalize it somehow.

Oct 21, 2024#280

Frank

Oct 21, 2024#281

Frank

Oct 21, 2024#282

D

Dubyamn

ScytheRexx said:
The issue is, as a politician, she can't jeopardize our position in the region. You pull back from Israel and suddenly the whole country is gone. It sucks ass, the whole situation, but it's a damned if you do and damned if you don't because whoever you side with is going to piss off a large group of voters either way. One of the big problems of a huge tent.

Two things. First is that I don’t believe that she would actually lose many votes by opposing the Gazan genocide. Anybody who votes solely on who is best for Zionism already has their guy in one Donald Trump. Second is that a president who refuses to do the right thing unless it costs them nothing politically is a president who will accomplish nothing good for anybody.

It also ignores that Biden and Harris have been attempting very hard to get a ceasefire going without being seen as pulling support, but Netanyahu keeps turning them down because Trump has been calling him and promising him more support and less roadblocks towards finishing the job once he is elected. The fact no one has been arrested for any of this behind the scenes dealing is pissing me off, but I've come to realize our DOJ it's too damn afraid of looking partisan in an election year to actually do anything about it. We have to vote and then hopefully when the smoke settles and if we still have a country we can put more of a fire under Netanyahu's ass.

Biden and Harris have done nothing to bring a diplomatic end to the Gazan genocide. Biden has worked tirelessly to keep the flow of weapons and money flowing to Israel and backed Netanyahu to the hilt. Which is the exact opposite of pursuing a ceasefire.

Oct 22, 2024#283

blotsfan

Dubyamn said:
Two things. First is that I don’t believe that she would actually lose many votes by opposing the Gazan genocide. Anybody who votes solely on who is best for Zionism already has their guy in one Donald Trump.

I don’t believe you really know Jewish Americans, especially older ones. Lib in every way until you get to Israel.

Oct 22, 2024#284

D

Dubyamn

blotsfan said:
I don’t believe you really know Jewish Americans, especially older ones. Lib in every way until you get to Israel.

I know plenty. And yeah they go hard right on Israel but I’m gearing up to vote for a genocidal piece of shit and I expect our places switched plenty of them would still sack up and vote democrat.

Oct 23, 2024#285

GasBandit

Oct 23, 2024#286

Frank

I don't think Palestinians can take Biden doing so much for them much longer.

Oct 24, 2024#287

Frank

So much effort by Blinken.

Israel and fucking Russia having exactly the same goals with the presidential election should be a stamp on what an ally it is.

Oct 26, 2024#288

PatrThom

Welp.

--Patrick

Oct 27, 2024#289

MindDetective

https://znetwork.org/znetarticle/arizona-palestinian-arab-muslim-and-progressive-democrats-and-community-leaders-statement-on-presidential-election/

AZ Palestinian, Arab, and Muslim progressives endorse Harris but not her foreign policy on Palestine

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