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Israel Thread

#1

Eriol

Eriol

I figured a slightly less-than-biased thread title might be a good idea on this one. I searched, and what existed... wasn't. Consider this thread an omnibus for the topic if you wish.


Starting out with current events, so everybody here has probably heard about the UN Security Council resolution on Israel recently. Everything beyond 1967 is a violation of international law, etc. Interesting opinion piece on that topic in the Jerusalem Post: Obama’s role in the passage of UNSC Resolution 2334: Fake news or spin?

What's most interesting about this piece is the author. To spoil it: the former Ambassador to Israel from Canada. I didn't know that clicking on the piece.

Interesting points raised about the chain of events there. Basically, it looks like the USA engineered the resolution, or at least that's the accusation.


#2

blotsfan

blotsfan

I'm Jewish and pro-Israel in the sense that I believe Israel has a right to exist. If you can't accept that it is a country and has the right to defend itself against people trying to destroy it, then we'll never see eye to eye.

However, I also see the Palestinians have their own land, and regardless about whose land it should be, it is for all intents and purposes, theirs. As long as Israel supports people going into Palestinian villages, kicks people out of their homes, and moves in, Israel can not claim it is acting in good faith with regards to a peaceful resolution.


#3

Gruebeard

Gruebeard

What he said is what I think too.


#4

PatrThom

PatrThom

What he said is equivalent to my beliefs as well.

--Patrick


#5

bhamv3

bhamv3

I concur with what has been said.

Except for the part about being Jewish.


#6

Shakey

Shakey

I too concur. I'm not Jewish either, but I'm told I look like I am.


#7

Gared

Gared

Pretty much for me it comes down to "I don't like this resettlement business, but beyond that, I know next to nothing about the history surrounding this issue, religious or otherwise, so I'ma keep my ass out of this."


#8

Eriol

Eriol

blotsfan said:
However, I also see the Palestinians have their own land, and regardless about whose land it should be, it is for all intents and purposes, theirs. As long as Israel supports people going into Palestinian villages, kicks people out of their homes, and moves in, Israel can not claim it is acting in good faith with regards to a peaceful resolution.
Click to expand...
I would say that's an overly-simplistic view of what most "settlement" is. The vast majority of the time (from what I can tell) it is setting up dwellings anywhere that is beyond that 1967 line, and most (all?) of the time that's new buildings, and most of the time on things that may have been classed as farmland (though if you look at before images, often nothing's been growing for... ever?). So while I can appreciate the idea that people say they're losing their land (which is true), it's not the same as purging a town and setting up shop in the same place, which it often is portrayed as.

Also one must keep in mind that said line goes through Jerusalem and a number of other large and significant places, and was a war armistice line, not something making more geographic sense in most cases.

And lastly, remember that the "acceptable line" for most (or many, or few, depending on who you believe) inside those territories is the Mediterranean Sea. As in, destruction of Israel entirely. So this is kind of a shell game as it is for large segments of their population (Hamas) who have their stated goal as the destruction of Israel entirely. And for the record, IMO any "right of return" is functionally equivalent to "the destruction of Israel" as well.

This is not an excuse that everything done by Israel on any post-1967 lands is fine, but it doesn't mean anything done there is by definition bad either IMO.


#9

@Li3n

@Li3n

Eriol said:
it's not the same as purging a town and setting up shop in the same place, which it often is portrayed as.
Click to expand...
Where is that the way it's often portrait?

Look the settlements, no matter where they put them, are a clear sign that the government doesn't want a 2 state solution, despite what they say.


#10

mikerc

mikerc

@Li3n said:
Where is that the way it's often portrait?
Click to expand...
Well, in this very thread...

blotsfan said:
As long as Israel supports people going into Palestinian villages, kicks people out of their homes, and moves in, Israel can not claim it is acting in good faith with regards to a peaceful resolution.
Click to expand...


#11

@Li3n

@Li3n

mroosc1979 said:
Well, in this very thread...
Click to expand...

Well, he should stop going here, it's clearly a very biased place...


#12

GasBandit

GasBandit

I've said this before - I'm of the opinion that Palestine ceased to exist as a legitimate sovereign body when Arafat walked away from the Camp David accords despite being given everything he asked for in the agreement save the one condition that it be acknowledged that Israel has the right to exist - a position furthered by their embracing of Hamas as their governing body. It's long past time for the so-called "Palestinians" to either assimilate into Israeli society (as many have) or move elsewhere - but in either case recognize that "Palestine" no longer exists as a place or an identity. Their plight over the last 50 years has largely been prolonged and exacerbated by the surrounding Arab nations who refused to take in refugees during the conflicts because they were more useful being permanently disaffected so as to have no choice but to continue to wage a thinly veiled proxy war against Israel. Israel is our one true ally and our first bulwark against the spread of the archaic barbarism endemic to the middle east, and should be afforded every measure of support we can give. How our government has treated Israel over the last 8 years has been revolting.


#13

@Li3n

@Li3n

GasBandit said:
Israel is our one true ally and our first bulwark against the spread of the archaic barbarism endemic to the middle east, and should be afforded every measure of support we can give.
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Ah yes, if Israel wasn't there the middle easterners would just all invade the west... maybe in boats or something.

But hey, blindly supporting a regime has never ended badly...


GasBandit said:
I've said this before - I'm of the opinion that Palestine ceased to exist as a legitimate sovereign body when Arafat walked away from the Camp David accords despite being given everything he asked for in the agreement save the one condition that it be acknowledged that Israel has the right to exist - a position furthered by their embracing of Hamas as their governing body.
Click to expand...
Well i'm glad you agree that if the population of a place has horrible ideas it's ok for someone else to take their land... i assume y'all will surrender peacefully to Canada on the 20th, right.


GasBandit said:
It's long past time for the so-called "Palestinians" to either assimilate into Israeli society (as many have)
Click to expand...
Well your opinions did soften a lot over the years, but i didn't expect you to actually advocate multiculturalism so fervently.


#14

blotsfan

blotsfan

GasBandit said:
It's long past time for the so-called "Palestinians" to either assimilate into Israeli society
Click to expand...
The issue with that is that if every single Palestinian said "this isn't our land. We're Israeli citizens now" the right wing of the country (Bibi's party) would not be ok with that since Jews would be a minority. Its the issue of having a country that was founded for one specific religious group, but also allows religious freedom.


#15

mikerc

mikerc

GasBandit said:
It's long past time for the so-called "Palestinians" to either assimilate into Israeli society
Click to expand...
The problem there is the possibility of "Palestinians" outnumbering Isreali Jews. And Isreal does NOT want its Jewish population to be outnumbered by Arabs in their own country.

Edit: ninjaed by @blotsfan


#16

GasBandit

GasBandit

@Li3n said:
Ah yes, if Israel wasn't there the middle easterners would just all invade the west... maybe in boats or something.
Click to expand...
You haven't paid attention at all to Europe over the last 10 or so years, have you.


#17

@Li3n

@Li3n

GasBandit said:
You haven't paid attention at all to Europe over the last 10 or so years, have you.
Click to expand...
Dude, really?


#18

Gruebeard

Gruebeard

@Li3n said:
Well i'm glad you agree that if the population of a place has horrible ideas it's ok for someone else to take their land... i assume y'all will surrender peacefully to Canada on the 20th, right.
Click to expand...
I call dibs on Hawaii!


#19

Eriol

Eriol

I think this article is great because while I agree with some of it, I do NOT agree with a lot of it either: I am an Israeli Citizen
Israel will negotiate with Palestine their borders, which will be open. Israeli security will be from the river to the sea. Palestine will not bear arms. These are non-negotiable conditions. Bush and Obama accepted them as such. Even if they did not do so, as a sovereign state, we demand these security precautions. Without them, there will be no Palestine.
Click to expand...
Basically, anytime you say to another state "you're a state, but we're your police force" they're not their own state. I understand why somebody in Israel may see that as essential, but that's just not a thing.Doesn't he remember how "well" (not well at all) the occupation of southern Lebanon went for decades? It was better after they left.
I'm sure others here can find lots they agree or disagree with as well.


#20

@Li3n

@Li3n

What i don't get is what are the Israelis afraid off? They already kicked everyone's ass in the region, and getting a piece of paper that says Palestine recognizes their right to exist won't matter at all if the arabs are actually ever in a position to wipe them out.

Just give them their shitty land, and just influence them with your culture and economy, like the Americans do.

I mean the Irish language survived 800 years of British attempts at stamping it out, only for it to shrink to almost nothing in less then 100 after the Irish where no longer being forced to renounce it. Of course the leaders that signed the treaty for peace where planning to do that for Northern Ireland, but half the population revolted instead and they had a civil war that killed more people then the revolt against the British... so NI is still in the UK now... so i guess that's more of a hard sell to the idiots on your side, no matter how effective.


#21

Eriol

Eriol

Last thing before bed, from Canada of all places: Why would anyone ever think the Palestinians would accept a two-state solution?

His text describes in more detail what Gas referred to above about them getting everything they (say they) want in 2000, and refusing.


#22

TommiR

TommiR

GasBandit said:
I've said this before - I'm of the opinion that Palestine ceased to exist as a legitimate sovereign body when Arafat walked away from the Camp David accords despite being given everything he asked for in the agreement save the one condition that it be acknowledged that Israel has the right to exist
Click to expand...
Not given quite everything they asked for, but like 90% of everything they asked for. The Palestinians saw the generous Israeli offer as a sign of weakness, and thought they could get more. A negotiating tactic, and one that ultimately failed with the coming into power of Sharon's administration in Israel, which was initially much less inclined to make such concessions.


#23

@Li3n

@Li3n

Eriol said:
Last thing before bed, from Canada of all places: Why would anyone ever think the Palestinians would accept a two-state solution?

His text describes in more detail what Gas referred to above about them getting everything they (say they) want in 2000, and refusing.
Click to expand...
I believe my previous post was meant to imply that they don't really need to give a shit about what the Palestinians really want. It's not like any of the other Arab states around them wouldn't jump at the chance to make Israel not be a country anymore.


#24

@Li3n

@Li3n

And guess who is building more settlement homes: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-38734956


#25

Eriol

Eriol

Story from Canada: B.C. woodworking school rejects — then un-rejects — Israeli student because of ‘illegal settlement activity’

Basically, the guy's from Israel, so they rejected him. Media started paying attention, so they un-reject him. He tells them that he's not interested in the school anymore (for obvious reasons).

And it was probably illegal!
In either case, the Island School of Building Arts policy likely violated Canadian law. Under the B.C. Human Rights Code, for one, businesses are prohibited from discriminating based on “place of origin.”
Click to expand...


#26

Eriol

Eriol

You had a guy talking in your congress recently on this:


#27

Eriol

Eriol

Hamas no longer calls for the active destruction of Israel, but still refuses to acknowledge it has a right to exist:
Reuters Story
Haaretz Story
Reuters said:
The Palestinian Islamist group Hamas on Monday dropped its longstanding call for Israel's destruction, but said it still rejected the country's right to exist and backs "armed struggle" against it.

In a policy document presented in Doha by its leader Khaled Meshaal, Hamas also said it would end its association with the Muslim Brotherhood, a move apparently aimed at improving ties with Gulf Arab states and Egypt, which view the Brotherhood as a terrorist group.
Click to expand...
The difference in position between 'advocating for Israel's destruction' and 'still rejected the country's right to exist and backs "armed struggle" against it' seems pretty damned minute, especially given the ambiguity:
Reuters said:
It remained unclear whether the document replaces Hamas's 1988 charter, which calls for Israel’s destruction
Click to expand...
So same old, same old. LOOK like you're doing something, but actually business as usual.


#28

Eriol

Eriol

Israel Ambassador to the UN gives a speech for the Security Council:

He basically says "when the Palestinian Authority stops paying $3000USD per month to the families of those who are terrorists, that will help a lot."

I wondered about the $3000/month thing, and it appears "fairly true" from googling: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund
Families of terrorists killed by Israeli security forces while they are murdering Israelis are paid stipends of about $800 to $1,000 per month. The families of convicted terrorists serving time in Israeli prisons receive $3,000 or higher per month.[16][12] According to Yossi Kuperwasser of the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, in 2017 the Palestinian Authority was paying out $300 million annually in terrorism stipends, which tallies to about 7 percent of the Authority's annual budget, and to more than 20% of the total foreign aid donations given to the Authority by all governments.[16]

...

In June, 2017, Palestinian Authority President Mahmood Abbas called efforts to stop the martyr payments an "aggression against the Palestinian people," and defended the salaries paid to to imprisoned Palestinians as a "social responsibility."[22]
Click to expand...
There's more in the Wikipedia article than that of course, but that's the shortest part that still makes sense quoted.


#29

Gruebeard

Gruebeard

Eriol said:
He basically says "when the Palestinian Authority stops paying $3000USD per month to the families of those who are terrorists, that will help a lot."
Click to expand...
Wow. The Palestinians are really stingy. We pay our terrorists millions. :trolol:


#30

Eriol

Eriol

Wasn't sure where to put this one, Trump thread or here, but I think here is slightly more appropriate, as while the comments go beyond Israel, the ones getting the biggest headlines are regarding Israel: Kushner On Middle East Peace: "What Do We Offer That's Unique? I Don't Know."
And again, all these people make arguments about why they feel the way they do. So as tensions were really mounting, I don't know if everyone is familiar, but there were two people—two Israeli guards killed at the Temple Mount (and that's the first time in many, many, many years that that happened, so Israelis [unintelligible] putting up metal detectors on the Temple Mount, which is not an irrational thing to do. You know when you have—police officers were just killed, and weapons that were used to [unintelligible] the weapons to check them—so then what happens is they start inciting it.

They say look, you know, this is a change to the status quo. The Temple Mount is a [unintelligible] occupation of Israel, and Israel was saying we don’t want anything to do with that, we just want to make sure people are safe. And that really incited a lot of tension in the streets.

So we're going to work with them [unintelligible] to take down the metal detectors there, and then I think one of the Palestinians' religious leaders was saying, “If you go through the metal detectors, then your prayers don’t count.” And that is not a very helpful thing to have said. And then there was a lot of rage. And there was an Israeli family that three people killed in their home, which was absolutely terrible. You know, so, "I'm going to do this to free the Temple Mount." So ultimately we were able to work with them, and we were able to get the Israelis to take down to the different forms of surveillance that the Jordanians were OK with, and we talked with the Palestinians the whole time to try to get their viewpoint on it.

And then ultimately they said, "OK, we took down the metal detectors but there's still a bridge up somewhere." And they said, "OK, we'll take that down, too." And so Bibi was getting beaten up by the press in Israel, because that was very politically unpopular for him to do. At the same time we got a situation in Jordan where an Israeli security diplomat in Jordan was attacked by two Jordanian men, and in self-defense he killed the attackers. So then it worked out where the Jordanians got the Israelis to accept their people from the embassy back to Israel
Click to expand...
Full audio: Full Audio of Jared Kushner's Remarks to Congressional Interns

The text excerpts I read seem rather reasonable statements. Not super-insightful, but not collections of flaming bullshit either. I have not listened to the full audio.
X


#31

Eriol

Eriol

Trump phones Arab leaders to announce U.S. Embassy moving to Jerusalem

And that'll be a thing.


#32

PatrThom

PatrThom

Eriol said:
Trump phones Arab leaders to announce U.S. Embassy moving to Jerusalem
And that'll be a thing.
Click to expand...
Incredibly bold.
Too bad it’s Comic Sans.

—Patrick


#33

Eriol

Eriol

Canada among 35 abstaining from UN vote condemning American embassy move to Jerusalem

I haven't found an easy list of the countries that abstained yet.


#34

Gruebeard

Gruebeard

Eriol said:
Canada among 35 abstaining from UN vote condemning American embassy move to Jerusalem

I haven't found an easy list of the countries that abstained yet.
Click to expand...
I'm gonna guess that they edited the article since you read it last, because, from the article:

The full list of abstaining countries was: Antigua-Barbuda, Argentina, Australia, the Bahamas, Benin, Bhutan, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Cameroon, Canada, Colombia, Croatia, Czech Republic, Dominican Republic, Equatorial Guinea, Fiji, Haiti, Hungary, Jamaica, Kiribati, Latvia, Lesotho, Malawi, Mexico, Panama, Paraguay, the Philippines, Poland, Romania, Rwanda, the Solomon Islands, South Sudan, Trinidad and Tobago, Tuvalu, Uganda and Vanuatu.
Click to expand...
[DOUBLEPOST=1513880419,1513880244][/DOUBLEPOST]Also, Nay

The countries that voted with the United States against the resolution condemning its embassy move were Togo, Palau, the Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, Honduras, Guatemala and Israel.
Click to expand...
And Yay

The United Kingdom, France, Germany, Ireland, Belgium, Portugal, Spain and China all voted to condemn the move of the American embassy as part of a total of 128 countries voting in favour of the resolution.
Click to expand...


#35

Gruebeard

Gruebeard

I wanna say, I'm rather surprised that Argentina abstained. I'm curious about their reasons for not wanting to piss off America


#36

PatrThom

PatrThom

Gruebeard said:
I'm curious about their reasons for not wanting to piss off America
Click to expand...
Same as everyone else's reason. We'll come for their oil (even if it IS loaded with sulphur).

--Patrick


#37

Gruebeard

Gruebeard

PatrThom said:
Same as everyone else's reason. We'll come for their oil (even if it IS loaded with sulphur).

--Patrick
Click to expand...
Well sure, but that hasn't stopped Argentina from trying to piss you off every other day. There's got to be something special going on, it seems to me.


#38

Eriol

Eriol

PatrThom said:
Same as everyone else's reason. We'll come for their oil (even if it IS loaded with sulphur).
Click to expand...
That doesn't explain many of them. Uganda for instance.


#39

Gruebeard

Gruebeard

Eriol said:
That doesn't explain many of them. Uganda for instance.
Click to expand...
They're concerned about Trump's supporters pining for the good old days.


#40

blotsfan

blotsfan

Israel can fucking burn.


#41

Dave

Dave

Can we get some more clarification on this statement?


#42

blotsfan

blotsfan

The fascists get to stay in power.


#43

Dave

Dave

Well, they were elected so...


#44

blotsfan

blotsfan

Dave said:
Well, they were elected so...
Click to expand...
Yeah after widespread discrimination and voter intimidation.

And even if so, that just adds to my argument that the country can burn for all I care.


#45

Dave

Dave

Good thing that could never happen here.


#46

blotsfan

blotsfan

Dave said:
Good thing that could never happen here.
Click to expand...
You sure got me, the ultimate defender of America.


#47

Bubble181

Bubble181

Hitler was elected, too. "They were elected, so..." is not a valid defense of democracy. Democracy can only properly work in an environment with different opinions being accepted, multiple, suffering, viable choices, and free media and education to inform people. And yes, the USA is facing the same issue, more and more.
Elections don't mean a thing if they don't actually present a choice or the voters are unable to form an intelligent opinion.

Electing someone who openly and clearly states he wishes to invade and occupy nearby regions, deport the populace or force them into camps to work, over made-up "historical rights" and ethnic similarities, that's Nazi Germany anno 1938. That a majority of Israelites can actually vote in favor of such policies is sickening.


#48

GasBandit

GasBandit

Slight difference in that the Nazis had to convince everyday Germans that they were under attack. Israel has literally been under attack since its founding to this day. There is literally no acceptable end to this conflict according to Israel's "neighbors" (and never has been) other than the complete annihilation of Israel and the eradication of the Jewish people. That's been made abundantly clear numerous times.

Remember when Clinton arranged for Israel to give Palestine literally everything on its wish list, including a Palestinian state, and Arafat walked away from the table because the deal's only request of him was to admit that Israel had a right to exist?


#49

blotsfan

blotsfan

GasBandit said:
There is literally no acceptable end to this conflict according to Palestine's "neighbors" (and never has been) other than the complete annihilation of Palestine and the eradication of the Palestinian people. That's been made abundantly clear numerous times.
Click to expand...
This is the official stance of the Israeli government.


#50

GasBandit

GasBandit

blotsfan said:
This is the official stance of the Israeli government.
Click to expand...
Except that's clearly false. As I said... Arafat walked away from a treaty that gave Palestine a state because it would remove their cassus belli against Israel. That was basically the moment when Palestine stopped existing as anything other than a rallying mcguffin for terrorists.

There is no Palestine, and the Palestinians don't want one unless it is literally built on the bones of every single Jew in the middle east.


#51

blotsfan

blotsfan

So because of what happened 20 years ago by someone that has been dead for 15 years, genocide is ok?


#52

GasBandit

GasBandit

blotsfan said:
So because of what happened 20 years ago by someone that has been dead for 15 years, genocide is ok?
Click to expand...
Assimilate. Into Israel (it's been done, a lot), or Jordan, or Egypt, or Lebanon (maybe not Syria). And it's time for the UN to tell those neighboring countries to stop exacerbating the situation by keeping Palestinians in refugee camps on the border instead of taking them in.


#53

blotsfan

blotsfan

GasBandit said:
Assimilate. Into Israel (it's been done, a lot), or Jordan, or Egypt, or Lebanon (maybe not Syria). And it's time for the UN to tell those neighboring countries to stop exacerbating the situation by keeping Palestinians in refugee camps on the border instead of taking them in.
Click to expand...
Bibi and his party have been working to effectively strip Israeli arabs of their citizenship.


#54

PatrThom

PatrThom

blotsfan said:
So because of what happened 2000 years ago...
Click to expand...
FTFY

--Patrick


#55

Gruebeard

Gruebeard

Fucking Romans!


#56

GasBandit

GasBandit

Gruebeard said:
Fucking Romans!
Click to expand...
"Romanes eunt domus?" The people called romans they go the house?


#57

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

Gruebeard said:
Fucking Romans!
Click to expand...
What did they ever do for us?


-I had a colonization of Africa class and the asshole professor played that skit in class.


#58

jwhouk

jwhouk

blotsfan said:
So because of what happened 20 years ago by someone that has been dead for 15 years, genocide is ok?
Click to expand...
You're off by a few thousands of years, bucko.

EDIT: You'll notice I said thousands, there, Blotsboy.


#59

blotsfan

blotsfan

jwhouk said:
You're off by a few thousands of years, bucko.

EDIT: You'll notice I said thousands, there, Blotsboy.
Click to expand...
So that justifies the genocide the Bibi is trying to implement? I'm sorry, I'm not sure how this works.


#60

jwhouk

jwhouk

I didn't say it justifies it. I said this argument has gone on for millennia.


#61

@Li3n

@Li3n

GasBandit said:
Slight difference in that the Nazis had to convince everyday Germans that they were under attack. Israel has literally been under attack since its founding to this day. There is literally no acceptable end to this conflict according to Israel's "neighbors" (and never has been) other than the complete annihilation of Israel and the eradication of the Jewish people. That's been made abundantly clear numerous times.
Click to expand...
So the problem with the Holocaust was that the Jewish leadership didn't actually plan to take over the world?


GasBandit said:
Remember when Clinton arranged for Israel to give Palestine literally everything on its wish list, including a Palestinian state, and Arafat walked away from the table because the deal's only request of him was to admit that Israel had a right to exist?
Click to expand...
As i said before, Israel can just let them be a separate state and not give a fuck about them not recognizing anything, since it's not like giving them independence will actually threaten Israel (see: Six-Day War).

And it's not like any of the other states around them recognize their right to exist.


#62

blotsfan

blotsfan

We work with multiple evil countries in the Middle East. Israel is one of them.



#63

Dave

Dave

Israel is like that friend of yours that's been in your life for a long time and one day you look at him & go, "Why do I like this guy? He's an asshole." Yet you have to keep pretending you're friends because he has all the dirt on you and let's you crash at his place in a bad neighborhood.


#64

Bubble181

Bubble181

Dave said:
Israel is like that friend of yours that's been in your life for a long time and one day you look at him & go, "Why do I like this guy? He's an asshole." Yet you have to keep pretending you're friends because he has all the dirt on you and let's you crash at his place in a bad neighborhood.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but Israel's arguably been a dick to everybody around 'm since arguably 1968.

By which I'm by no means saying "it's all israel's fault", because most of the surrounding countries are cunts, too.


#65

blotsfan

blotsfan

He actually said it.


#66

jwhouk

jwhouk

...oy vey.


#67

figmentPez

figmentPez

And Evangelicals still won't get it.


#68

jwhouk

jwhouk

I do, thank you very much.


#69

Krisken

Krisken

Fucking asshole, stay out of my state.


#70

blotsfan

blotsfan

I don't know why you people are marking it funny.


#71

Bubble181

Bubble181

blotsfan said:
I don't know why you people are marking it funny.
Click to expand...
Well, it's laugh or cry, so....


#72

PatrThom

PatrThom

blotsfan said:
I don't know why you people are marking it funny.
Click to expand...
Everything Trump touches turns to comedy.

--Patrick


#73

jwhouk

jwhouk

Krisken said:
Fucking asshole, stay out of my state.
Click to expand...
Ditto. And your loony veep.


#74

blotsfan

blotsfan

So uhhhh...shits bad


#75

Frank

Frank

Yeah, I'm loving all the tearful goodbyes being posted to social media. Most folk trapped in Gaza aren't hedging their bets on living through this.


#76

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

I keep wanting to understand the conflict, but it's literally thousands of years old and I...just don't understand it at all. I keep trying to find maybe videos that explain it, but they get so complicated so quickly, throwing around leaders and other names so fast that I get overwhelmed.


#77

Cheesy1

Cheesy1

ThatNickGuy said:
I keep wanting to understand the conflict, but it's literally thousands of years old and I...just don't understand it at all. I keep trying to find maybe videos that explain it, but they get so complicated so quickly, throwing around leaders and other names so fast that I get overwhelmed.
Click to expand...


#78

Frank

Frank

Quick story, the current dust-up is over more homes being fought over by Israeli settlement groups who were mostly given the land by Israeli authorities after declaring any land owned by Jews (in this case by some religious groups who had claims going back to the 1800s) and the people who already lived there post Jordan resettling Palestinians who had fled the area during those troubled 40s.

The IDF has used the opportunity to apparently annihilate as much infrastructure as possible. Makes resettling an area easier.

On your tax dollar 'Mericans, remember that too.


#79

D

Dubyamn

ThatNickGuy said:
I keep wanting to understand the conflict, but it's literally thousands of years old and I...just don't understand it at all. I keep trying to find maybe videos that explain it, but they get so complicated so quickly, throwing around leaders and other names so fast that I get overwhelmed.
Click to expand...
It's colonialism. Bunch of Europeans going to a place and claiming it despite there already being people there. Then they proceed to brutalize and ethnically cleanse the people there. Oh and it's also an ethnostate.


#80

Bubble181

Bubble181

Dubyamn said:
It's colonialism. Bunch of Europeans going to a place and claiming it despite there already being people there. Then they proceed to brutalize and ethnically cleanse the people there. Oh and it's also an ethnostate.
Click to expand...
You're aware that calling the Israelites Europeans is... Very questionable, right? They may have partially been scattered across Europe, they must definitely never considered themselves European. And due to some very effective ethnic cleansing about 75 years ago, most modern day Jews have at minimum mixed roots.
It's still European colonialism in the sense that France and England just decided to create a state and stuff people there with no thought to the ones already there.
Lastly, claiming colonialism can only come from Europeans is also way off.


#81

@Li3n

@Li3n

Bubble181 said:
You're aware that calling the Israelites Europeans is... Very questionable, right? They may have partially been scattered across Europe, they must definitely never considered themselves European.
Click to expand...
They've been in Europe for almost 2 millennia. That's longer the some other Europeans, like the Hungarians. So they're at the very least European Jews. Just like there are North African Jews.

Bubble181 said:
It's still European colonialism in the sense that France and England just decided to create a state and stuff people there with no thought to the ones already there.
Click to expand...
Wait, are we still pretending they didn't fuck up the Middle East on purpose?


Bubble181 said:
Lastly, claiming colonialism can only come from Europeans is also way off.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that's true.


#82

blotsfan

blotsfan

My god.



#83

Celt Z

Celt Z

Bubble181 said:
You're aware that calling the Israelites Europeans is... Very questionable, right? They may have partially been scattered across Europe, they must definitely never considered themselves European.
Click to expand...
You know, normally I'd agree with this, but I remember an incident back when I worked at Lehman: one of my jobs was setting up the international video conferencing. The call was with an office in Israel, and to set up the calls on our system, you had to search by region. I searched everywhere I thought it could be, and finally had to call the admin to contacted me to tell her I wasn't able to find it preprogrammed in our system. The admin, who was Israeli-born, got very huffy with me and said it was listed in Europe (which it was). When I said that it was odd, why was it under Europe?, she got border-line pissed off and said that Israel is European. ....at that point, I REALLY didn't want to pursue that conversation any longer, so I shut my mouth and finished the reservation.

(Also, I feel like I my have mentioned this story before, but it bares repeating that for some people the line of European/not European isn't as cut-and-dry as we might think.)


#84

Frank

Frank

blotsfan said:
My god.

Click to expand...


lol, the fucking building's already gone.

Also, there's something really disturbing about the IDF posting on Twitter excusing war crimes like they're a Twitch streamer who used the "heated gamer word".


#85

D

Dubyamn

Bubble181 said:
You're aware that calling the Israelites Europeans is... Very questionable, right? They may have partially been scattered across Europe, they must definitely never considered themselves European. And due to some very effective ethnic cleansing about 75 years ago, most modern day Jews have at minimum mixed roots.
Click to expand...
They were born in Europe, their parents were born in Europe and they carried with them European citizenship. The fact that Europeans were anti-semetic monsters doesn't make them not European.

*edit* It also bothers me that you believe that saying that people from Europe are European is more problematic than "They weren't European, They were Jews. We had a whole genocide about it."

It's still European colonialism in the sense that France and England just decided to create a state and stuff people there with no thought to the ones already there.
Lastly, claiming colonialism can only come from Europeans is also way off.
Click to expand...
Yeah yeah defend European colonialism. World would be much better if Europeans had just stayed where they were.


#86

blotsfan

blotsfan

Celt Z said:
You know, normally I'd agree with this, but I remember an incident back when I worked at Lehman: one of my jobs was setting up the international video conferencing. The call was with an office in Israel, and to set up the calls on our system, you had to search by region. I searched everywhere I thought it could be, and finally had to call the admin to contacted me to tell her I wasn't able to find it preprogrammed in our system. The admin, who was Israeli-born, got very huffy with me and said it listed was in Europe (which it was). When I said that it was odd, why was it under Europe?, she got border-line pissed off and said that Israel is European. ....at that point, I REALLY didn't want to pursue that conversation any longer, so I shut my mouth and finished the reservation.

(Also, I feel like I my have mentioned this story before, but it bares repeating that for some people the line of European/not European isn't as cut-and-dry as we might think.)
Click to expand...
For all international sports, Israel is considered Europe because the middle eastern countries won't play them.


#87

Frank

Frank

Biden's press secretary used to work for an Israeli spy company, so you know, cool.


#88

PatrThom

PatrThom

What I wonder is how this will affect Intel.
...and also Qualcomm and Marvell, to some degree.

--Patrick


#89

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe



#90

Frank

Frank



#91

Frank

Frank

They didn't target the big hospital in Gaza luckily, only all the surrounding roads and buildings, making it useless.


#92

blotsfan

blotsfan

Frank said:
They didn't target the big hospital in Gaza luckily, only all the surrounding roads and buildings, making it useless.
Click to expand...
But the roads were Hamas headquarters.


#93

chris

chris

Israel targets the underground tunnel system of the Hamas. And these tunnels are underneath streets and homes of civilians.


#94

Frank

Frank



This is the kind of shit where you totally get why many minority groups don't give a shit about elections.


#95

BErt

BErt

Jesus fucking Christ


#96

bhamv3

bhamv3

In my experience, the physical attractiveness of an individual has no correlation with his or her capacity to cause harm.

Also, I've seen hotter.


#97

BErt

BErt

bhamv3 said:
Also, I've seen hotter.
Click to expand...
With 4 simple words, bhamv escalated the Israel/Taiwan war


#98

MindDetective

MindDetective

This thread really sums up the complicated nature of the conflict, I think. Bad guys on both sides. Innocents on both sides. It is a mess.



#99

Frank

Frank

Hopefully this doesn't end the ceasefire like it's probably intended to.



#100

Frank

Frank

Just in case you weren't sure where the power in this situation lies.

The AP fired a reporter (who is Jewish) days after the Israeli government bombed a building housing their offices into rubble, because she was critical of Israel's government in college.



#101

ScytheRexx

ScytheRexx

This brings up the thing that annoys me the most about all the conversations on this, and that's the fact Israel isn't Judaism. Israelis are Jewish, yes, but they are not Judaism itself, anymore then say Iran is Islam or the United States is Christian.

It really burns my craw every time we equate the bad shit a nation does and then latch onto the religion aspects because it brings the wrong narrative. People in the US are not angry at Israel because they are Jewish, you can't call someone critical of Israel an anti-Semite just like you can't call a person critical of Iran an Islamophobe. I saw people screaming at Jewish people supporting Palestine as "traitors" and it just pisses me off.

I am super critical of religion as a whole these days, and I feel that a lot of our biggest disagreements would go away if religion as a concept just vanished overnight, but as long as we have to deal with it we should at least focus on the fact these are nations doing shit that also happen to follow a religion, not a religion in itself.


#102

Dave

Dave

I'm leaning more and more towards the "fuck Israel" side of things. Note that this this has nothing to do with their religion. Their government is just acting evil.


#103

ScytheRexx

ScytheRexx

Dave said:
I'm leaning more and more towards the "fuck Israel" side of things. Note that this this has nothing to do with their religion. Their government is just acting evil.
Click to expand...
Honestly I feel like Israel has been turning into a pretty intense ethnostate more then anything, which considering the origins of the modern state of Israel, feels terribly ironic in the worst way possible.

I watched a video recently posted by a Jewish woman who decided to go on vacation to Israel, and she was surrounded and mocked by a bunch of Israelis. Why? Her husband was black. They screamed the couple were infiltrators, and demanded they leave the country. I never even knew Israelis' had an n-word, but now I do.


#104

MindDetective

MindDetective

Frank said:
Just in case you weren't sure where the power in this situation lies.

The AP fired a reporter (who is Jewish) days after the Israeli government bombed a building housing their offices into rubble, because she was critical of Israel's government in college.

Click to expand...
That doesn't seem as cut-and-dried to me as you seem to think it is. It is possible this was vindictive, yes, but it is so one-sided I can't even tell.


#105

Frank

Frank

Here's her interview if you want her side.

www.sfgate.com

'I was just canceled': An interview with Emily Wilder

Wilder was fired from the AP and told she violated their social media policy.
www.sfgate.com www.sfgate.com


#106

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

ScytheRexx said:
This brings up the thing that annoys me the most about all the conversations on this, and that's the fact Israel isn't Judaism. Israelis are Jewish, yes, but they are not Judaism itself, anymore then say Iran is Islam or the United States is Christian.

It really burns my craw every time we equate the bad shit a nation does and then latch onto the religion aspects because it brings the wrong narrative. People in the US are not angry at Israel because they are Jewish, you can't call someone critical of Israel an anti-Semite just like you can't call a person critical of Iran an Islamophobe. I saw people screaming at Jewish people supporting Palestine as "traitors" and it just pisses me off.

I am super critical of religion as a whole these days, and I feel that a lot of our biggest disagreements would go away if religion as a concept just vanished overnight, but as long as we have to deal with it we should at least focus on the fact these are nations doing shit that also happen to follow a religion, not a religion in itself.
Click to expand...
More Jews live in New York than live in Israel.


#107

MindDetective

MindDetective

Frank said:
Here's her interview if you want her side.

www.sfgate.com

'I was just canceled': An interview with Emily Wilder

Wilder was fired from the AP and told she violated their social media policy.
www.sfgate.com www.sfgate.com
Click to expand...
It seemed like she was employed at the AP building that was bombed the way that everyone was talking about her. Nor did anything say which thing she once said went over the line. The naked mole rat line? Maybe. *shrug* It is speculation since they are being tight-lipped about it.

It does sound like her editor couldn't protect her from higher-ups that didn't want to face conservative criticisms, though. That does seem very cowardly to me, on the part of those higher-ups.


#108

D

Dubyamn

MindDetective said:
It seemed like she was employed at the AP building that was bombed the way that everyone was talking about her. Nor did anything say which thing she once said went over the line. The naked mole rat line? Maybe. *shrug* It is speculation since they are being tight-lipped about it.
Click to expand...
That is the way it works when they refuse to talk about it. Though if they had a reason for the firing that's better then she made posts in college thry probably would have said it instead of just letting this reasoning continue.

It does sound like her editor couldn't protect her from higher-ups that didn't want to face conservative criticisms, though. That does seem very cowardly to me, on the part of those higher-ups.
Click to expand...
Sounds like everyone in the organization is chickenshit. Editors and coworkers alike.


#109

Tinwhistler

Tinwhistler



#110

PatrThom

PatrThom

Still as powerful now as it was eight years ago.

--Patrick


#111

figmentPez

figmentPez

BErt said:
Jesus fucking Christ
Click to expand...
It gets worse:


She's a catgirl.


#112

bhamv3

bhamv3

I've seen hotter catgirls.


#113

BErt

BErt

bhamv3 said:
I've seen hotter catgirls.
Click to expand...
With 4 simple words, bhamv escalated the Catgirl/Taiwan war


#114

Krisken

Krisken

There are more fronts in this war than I imagined.


#115

Frank

Frank

Lol, the New Yorker made famous for being in the video where he defends being allowed to steal someone's home in Jerusalem is of course, a huge, massive piece of Covid denying, extreme right wing shit. What a shock. I am in awe.

1621992809387.png


#116

Tiger Tsang

Tiger Tsang

Captain Reynolds would space that turd so damn quick if he fits through the airlock.


#117

Dave

Dave

Dude thinks he'd be a brown coat but he'd most definitely be working for the Alliance.


#118

GasBandit

GasBandit

Dave said:
Dude thinks he'd be a brown coat but he'd most definitely be working for the Alliance.
Click to expand...
He looks more like one of the obstreperous nitwits Mal picked a fight with in episode 1.


#119

blotsfan

blotsfan

No he'd be a brown coat alright.


#120

Tiger Tsang

Tiger Tsang

blotsfan said:
No he'd be a brown coat alright.
Click to expand...
Pray tell, show your math on this equation.


#121

jwhouk

jwhouk

The other type of Braun Mantel.


#122

GasBandit

GasBandit

Tiger Tsang said:
Pray tell, show your math on this equation.
Click to expand...
It's probably something along the lines of why my stepmother (who is black) does not enjoy Firefly - because a very good argument could be made that the browncoats are a thinly veiled lionization of the post-reconstruction confederacy,


#123

jwhouk

jwhouk

Nein, mein freund. Think "BRAUNS HEMD"


#124

MindDetective

MindDetective

GasBandit said:
It's probably something along the lines of why my stepmother (who is black) does not enjoy Firefly - because a very good argument could be made that the browncoats are a thinly veiled lionization of the post-reconstruction confederacy,
Click to expand...
Cowboys who lost the war and don't trust the government they were once fighting against? Yeah, I an see it.


#125

GasBandit

GasBandit

MindDetective said:
Cowboys who lost the war and don't trust the government they were once fighting against? Yeah, I an see it.
Click to expand...
And if you're a person who has it in their head that the civil war was "the war of northern aggression" it's even more "apparent."


#126

Tiger Tsang

Tiger Tsang

Those are examples of Folks that haven't read any dystopian future SF where Corporations control every aspect of your life, where you are a 'corporate drone or the trash outside the corporate structure'
is that better MD


#127

MindDetective

MindDetective

Tiger Tsang said:
Folks that haven't read any dystopian future SF where Corporations control every aspect of your life where you are a 'corporate drone or the trash outside the corporate structure'
Click to expand...
Sentence fragment. Consider revising.


#128

Shakey

Shakey

www.iheart.com

Part One: What the Netanyahu Family Did To Palestine - Behind the Bastards | iHeart

<p>Robert is joined by Dana El Kurd to discuss the Netanyahu Family, Zionism and Palestine.</p><p>FOOTNOTES:</p><ol> <li><a href='https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-18008697net'>https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-18008697net</a></li> <li><a...
www.iheart.com www.iheart.com


#129

Shakey

Shakey

Just finished part two. Holy shit. I knew it was bad, but it’s amazing how much of what they’re doing is able to be completely ignored by the media.


#130

Frank

Frank

They waited enough time for people to look away.



#131

Timmus

Timmus

Shakey said:
Just finished part two. Holy shit. I knew it was bad, but it’s amazing how much of what they’re doing is able to be completely ignored by the media.
Click to expand...
You/ve got fine taste in podcasts my man.


#132

Frank

Frank

So, how many US states do you think are going to test their anti-Israel boycott laws on Ben and Jerry and see if they hold even the slightest bit of water.

I learned that there are 35 US states that have these laws on the books.


#133

blotsfan

blotsfan

Of all the laws that are blatantly unconstitutional, anti BDS ones are maybe the most blatant. “You HAVE to do buisness with this country no matter what.”


#134

Bubble181

Bubble181

blotsfan said:
Of all the laws that are blatantly unconstitutional, anti BDS ones are maybe the most blatant. “You HAVE to do buisness with this country no matter what.”
Click to expand...
Look, refusing service is all well and good if it's because the other is gay or trans or...urban (wink wink nudge nudge youknowwhatimean) or something. Merely being part of an evil invasion force pushing innocent civilians off their own lands, stealing houses and property, breaking a dozen international treaties is no reason at all.


#135

jwhouk

jwhouk

This may explain why I haven’t seen my chocolate chip cookie dough cups in the freezer lately.


#136

Frank

Frank

In a shock to no one, here comes Desantis.



#137

MindDetective

MindDetective

blotsfan said:
Of all the laws that are blatantly unconstitutional, anti BDS ones are maybe the most blatant. “You HAVE to do buisness with this country no matter what.”
Click to expand...
I agree, although government contracts with the States in question may be a different matter.


#138

MindDetective

MindDetective

Frank said:
In a shock to no one, here comes Desantis.

Click to expand...
This is the guy that wants to replace Trump and not waste the opportunity like Trump did.


#139

Tress

Tress

Keep the government out of private industries!

…unless the industry in question is supporting a cause that is traditionally aligned with Democrats, in which case fuck ‘em. Have the government overreach as far as it can go.


#140

PatrThom

PatrThom

]DeSantis] also said that if the companies don’t “cease the boycott of Israel as required by Florida law” after being placed on its Scrutinized Companies List, the agency “must refrain from acquiring any and all Unilever assets consistent with the law.”
Click to expand...
That's a lot.

--Patrick


#141

Frank

Frank

apnews.com

Israeli firm unveils armed robot to patrol volatile borders

An Israeli defense contractor has unveiled a remote-controlled armed robot it says can patrol battle zones, track infiltrators and open fire.
apnews.com apnews.com

New robot ATVs with machine guns strapped to a turret on them. Do you think they'll show more or less humanity to Palestinians than the IDF already does?

I know they're remote controlled. Also, it's pretty hard to be less humane than the IDF.


#142

jwhouk

jwhouk

So, my only question is, it's okay for me to keep buying Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream, right?


#143

Frank

Frank

News at 11, Israel fucking sucks. Charging in and assaulting a funeral procession for someone they murdered or as American media has put it "died after being struck in the head by a bullet."



#144

Krisken

Krisken

A clear example of becoming the thing you hate.


#145

blotsfan

blotsfan

Man, fuck Israel huh?


#146

Frank

Frank

Yeah, I saw a little bit of the aftermath with the doctors and the bodies.

Cool world.


#147

Shakey

Shakey

BUT HAMAS!


#148

blotsfan

blotsfan

Israel cut off all telecommunications in Gaza. The last reports indicated that the bombing intensified.


#149

D

Dubyamn

blotsfan said:
Israel cut off all telecommunications in Gaza. The last reports indicated that the bombing intensified.
Click to expand...
Jesus they already were bombing at a crazy rate.


#150

blotsfan

blotsfan

Oh.



#151

phil

phil

blotsfan said:
Oh.

Click to expand...
Iseal and I have different definitions of controlled demolition


#152

chris

chris

phil said:
Iseal and I have different definitions of controlled demolition
Click to expand...
Well it's a demolition they had the control of. A controlled demolition.


#153

D

Dubyamn

Hey remember when in the Winter Soldier Hydra was using AI to select targets for assassination from the sky?
Cause apparently that’s exactly what Israel is doing.


#154

Tress

Tress

Ya know, when your tactics line up with Hydra and Skynet, it’s not a good look. This is a “Are we the baddies?” kind of moment.


#155

Frank

Frank

So, all of our countries are super cool with genocide now eh.

This rules.


#156

chris

chris

Frank said:
So, all of our countries are super cool with genocide now eh.

This rules.
Click to expand...
All of our countries were OK with it in the past.


#157

Frank

Frank

That's true. It just sucks really bad watching them embrace it and how so many people are cheering it on.


#158

GasBandit

GasBandit



#159

Bubble181

Bubble181

This is (yet another) one of those conflicts where, really, there are no good side and bad side.
Sure there are (innocent) civilians on both sides, but the armed parties in the conflict can all drop dead and in average the world world be a slightly better place.
And in this conflict, even the innocence of a high amount of the civilians on both sides is questionable.

Neither side can really hold much of a moral high ground here.


#160

Frank

Frank

I'm sure the 25,000 dead kids (and the hundreds of thousands starving) in Gaza appreciate that the situation isn't black and white.

Actually, fuck this mealy mouthed bullshit.

The IDF and the Israeli government are bad. Rotten to the genocidal core.

While West Bank settlers continue to murder people for their homes, the few that are left.


#161

Bubble181

Bubble181

Frank said:
I'm sure the 25,000 dead kids (and the hundreds of thousands starving) in Gaza appreciate that the situation isn't black and white.

Actually, fuck this mealy mouthed bullshit.

The IDF and the Israeli government are bad. Rotten to the genocidal core.

While West Bank settlers continue to murder people for their homes, the few that are left.
Click to expand...
Absolutely true.
The also dead thousands of Israeli, including children and teenagers falling victim to the biggest terrorist attack in the West since 9/11 might feel like Hamas aren't entirely innocent either though.

The IDF are the Evil Empire reigning down destruction and death, sure. They're also the result of a traumatized nation facing multiple existential crises over the past decades. The USA killed far more and destroyed much more in a completely unconnected country for something like this.

I'm not being mealy mouthed. I'm not trying to say either side isn't all that bad.
Both sides here are rotten to the core, both sides have killed children, both sides have raped women, both sides have committed war crimes. Israel just has more money and better equipment and USA backing so they can commit more crimes with less repercussions.


#162

Shakey

Shakey

Bubble181 said:
And in this conflict, even the innocence of a high amount of the civilians on both sides is questionable.
Click to expand...
The last election in Gaza was in 2006, that was almost 18 years ago. Before the conflict, the median age in Gaza was 18 years old. 70% of the population was under the age of 30. I would say that very few of the people in Gaza had any say in having Hamas in charge of their government.


#163

blotsfan

blotsfan

Bubble181 said:
The also dead thousands of Israeli, including children and teenagers falling victim to the biggest terrorist attack in the West since 9/11 might feel like Hamas aren't entirely innocent either though.
Click to expand...
The latest death count is at 600-700 people and Israeli witnesses have said that a lot of the deaths were IDF soldiers firing at them.


#164

Bubble181

Bubble181

blotsfan said:
The latest death count is at 600-700 people and Israeli witnesses have said that a lot of the deaths were IDF soldiers firing at them.
Click to expand...
So you're deliberately leaving out the 7/10 attack? Nice to know how openly you'll twist the numbers.


#165

blotsfan

blotsfan

I was specifically talking about that attack.


#166

Bubble181

Bubble181

... So then you're not counting the security personnel who died? The official death toll is 1.134 people killed, 248 captured hostage. That's 1.400 victims, aka roughly half a 9/11, in a country smaller than New York.

But again, I'm not defending either side. Everyone involved is terrible.


#167

D

Dubyamn

Bubble181 said:
I'm not being mealy mouthed. I'm not trying to say either side isn't all that bad.
Both sides here are rotten to the core, both sides have killed children, both sides have raped women, both sides have committed war crimes. Israel just has more money and better equipment and USA backing so they can commit more crimes with less repercussions.
Click to expand...
Both sidesing in the middle of a genocide is incredibly mealy mouthed.

Nobody here is a fan of Hamas. Nobody here is going to think you’re a Hamas supporter. You don’t have to virtue signal by saying both sides are bad. You can just say Israel is committing a genocide.


#168

Shakey

Shakey

And let’s not forget that Israel was allowing cash payments to Hamas, and wanted them to stay in power, in hopes that something like this would happen so they could justify leveling Gaza and killing everyone there.



#169

Bubble181

Bubble181

Dubyamn said:
Both sidesing in the middle of a genocide is incredibly mealy mouthed.

Nobody here is a fan of Hamas. Nobody here is going to think you’re a Hamas supporter. You don’t have to virtue signal by saying both sides are bad. You can just say Israel is committing a genocide.
Click to expand...
I'm not here supporting anyone.
One side is actively committing genocide, and the other side would be if they could.


#170

Dave

Dave

As I said before, Israel has become a terrorist state that oppresses the Palestinian people. Hamas is an actual terrorist organization. In between are the Palestinian people who have done nothing and deserve none of this. But they also largely support Hamas and that sucks. But can you fucking blame them?!? Hamas is willing to fight the oppressors who are taking their land and killing their people. But that doesn't make the actions of Hamas right or not evil.

It's not mealy mouthed to recognize that there are terrible things going on from both sides, although at this time Israel have upped the ante from asshole maneuvers to outright genocide.


#171

PatrThom

PatrThom

Dave said:
can you fucking blame them?!? Hamas is willing to fight the oppressors who are taking their land and killing their people. But that doesn't make the actions of Hamas right or not evil.
Click to expand...
John Dillinger would destroy the mortgage paperwork at the banks he would rob as a way of doing the bank's customers a "favor" during the Great Depression, but...same.

--Patrick


#172

D

Dubyamn

Dave said:
As I said before, Israel has become a terrorist state that oppresses the Palestinian people. Hamas is an actual terrorist organization. In between are the Palestinian people who have done nothing and deserve none of this. But they also largely support Hamas and that sucks. But can you fucking blame them?!? Hamas is willing to fight the oppressors who are taking their land and killing their people. But that doesn't make the actions of Hamas right or not evil.

It's not mealy mouthed to recognize that there are terrible things going on from both sides, although at this time Israel have upped the ante from asshole maneuvers to outright genocide.
Click to expand...
If you can’t see how it’s mealy mouthed to say in the middle of a genocide “yeah genocide is bad but the people being genocided are real pieces of shit” then I don’t really know what to say that could convince you. I’m being generous when I say it’s mealy mouthed because it’s the best reason for saying it at this time.


#173

D

Dubyamn

Bubble181 said:
I'm not here supporting anyone.
One side is actively committing genocide, and the other side would be if they could.
Click to expand...
Never said you were supporting anyone. Just that you were being mealy mouthed in your condemnation of an active genocide as you weakly say both sides are bad.


#174

Bubble181

Bubble181

Yeah yeah, always point out the worst side and just ignore the other or you're "both siding" the issue.
I'm both sliding this issue because both sides are fucked up.
I'm not trying to diminish the bad done by the IDF by saying "yeah but the other side's done some pretty shady things too!"
I'm saying both sides are absolutely craptastic assholes who pretty much deserve each other. And yes, there are innocents caught in the crossfire,and it's sad for them. HAMAS are absolute terrorists, on the level of Al Queda and Isis. The IDF are murderous, fascist goons on the level of the nazis and the modern day Russians.

In the Russia-Ukraine conflict, while there are some fascist asses on the UKR side and they're by no means all innocent angels, it's easy to say the Russians are the aggressor and the Bad Guy, who is clearly worse. In the Hamas-Israel conflict, there's no good guy side. Innocents are dying, and that's bad, but otherwise, if all of Hamas was to suicide and take all of the IDF with them... Not much of value world be lost.

I used to have some Israeli friends. Once they went into the IDF, they just turned brainwashed beyond all recognition.


#175

D

Dubyamn

The sides aren’t Israel and Hamas it’s Israel and the Palestinian people who are being actively genocided. Your both sidesing the issue is completely erasing that fact. And you can barely summon up enough of a single fuck to write a single sentence about how “it’s sad for them.” A people who are right now being genocided in front of your eyes.


#176

Dave

Dave

So are people in China. So are people in Zimbabwe. So are people in Ukraine. So are people in at least three other countries with ethnic strife and oppression. There’s literally nothing that I can do about any of it.

And it absolutely IS Israel vs Hamas, even if it’s the Palestinian people who are taking the brunt. Israel has been shit for a long time but it was the absolutely insane terrorist attack AGAINST Israel that kickstarted this recent wave of genocidal acts by the Israeli government.

I’m curious as to why this conflict is so one-sided in your mind, like the Palestinian people haven’t supported Hamas - which right or wrong they absolutely do. And I frankly don’t blame them. Hamas is the only real entity standing up to Israel so of course they’ll be supported as freedom fighters. But their chilling and shortsighted tactics from the attack have cooled any support they would have received or deserved.


#177

blotsfan

blotsfan

Israel's goal isn't to stop Hamas. Its to clear gaza of palestinians. Their governement officials openly talk about it when they arent trying to get US tax dollars.


#178

Shakey

Shakey

Dave said:
I’m curious as to why this conflict is so one-sided in your mind, like the Palestinian people haven’t supported Hamas - which right or wrong they absolutely do. And I frankly don’t blame them. Hamas is the only real entity standing up to Israel so of course they’ll be supported as freedom fighters. But their chilling and shortsighted tactics from the attack have cooled any support they would have received or deserved.
Click to expand...
The Palestinians in Gaza elected Hamas in the last election 17 years ago. There hasn't been an election since then. That means anyone 35 or younger hasn’t been able to have any say in whether they want them in charge or not. 70% of the population in Gaza is that age or younger.

Saying they absolutely support Hamas when they haven’t been able to voice their support is exactly what Israel wants.

It’s why they allowed for cash to flow directly to Hamas. Having Hamas in charge is what excuses them from killing indiscriminately. They all support Hamas, so it’s their fault.


#179

D

Dubyamn

Dave said:
So are people in China. So are people in Zimbabwe. So are people in Ukraine. So are people in at least three other countries with ethnic strife and oppression. There’s literally nothing that I can do about any of it.

And it absolutely IS Israel vs Hamas, even if it’s the Palestinian people who are taking the brunt. Israel has been shit for a long time but it was the absolutely insane terrorist attack AGAINST Israel that kickstarted this recent wave of genocidal acts by the Israeli government.

I’m curious as to why this conflict is so one-sided in your mind, like the Palestinian people haven’t supported Hamas - which right or wrong they absolutely do. And I frankly don’t blame them. Hamas is the only real entity standing up to Israel so of course they’ll be supported as freedom fighters. But their chilling and shortsighted tactics from the attack have cooled any support they would have received or deserved.
Click to expand...
You don’t commit genocide against a government you commit it against a people. If you’re sincere about believing it’s a genocide then you can’t believe it’s a fight between Israel and Hamas.

Hamas is a problem but it’s not the problem we should be concerned with which is the genocide of the Palestinians. It’s also a problem of Israel’s making. Israel supported Hamas in its early years. Israel doing a unilateral pull out lead to Hamas taking control of Gaza and then never giving it up. And it was Israel that allowed millions to flow straight to Hamas from Qatar. And then even after decades of using Hamas as a partner to prevent a real option of a Palestinian state from happening. I think it’s one sided because it is. Israel propped up a terrorist group that hates them for the sole purpose of keeping a Palestinian statehood movement from gaining real ground so Israel could keep on scooping up West Bank land and it blew up in their face as they had IOF troops protecting West Bank settlers building a Sukkah in the middle of a Palestinian town instead of defending Israel against an attack that both Egyptian and US intelligence agencies had warned them about.

And you’re wrong if you think Israel’s actions have cooled or diminished support Hamas has risen in Gaza. Don’t know how reliable polls are in the middle of a genocide but polls show that support for Hamas and Oct 7th attacks have increased. Because of course they fucking would.


#180

PatrThom

PatrThom

blotsfan said:
Israel's goal isn't to stop Hamas. Its to clear gaza of palestinians. Their governement officials openly talk about it when they arent trying to get US tax dollars.
Click to expand...
A coworker of mine is Jordanian, and this is his take on it as well--that this conflict is not ideological in nature, it is expansionist.

--Patrick


#181

Frank

Frank

These are the things that have happened in the 9 days since the ICJ declared that some genocide might be going on and that Israel had to take steps to prevent it.

1707100531684.png


#182

Frank

Frank



#183

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

Frank said:
Click to expand...
Remember kids, it's only a war crime if someone with enough power cares to call it that.


#184

Frank

Frank

Israel's evidence that UNRWA members took part in the Hamas attacks? There wasn't any, but that didn't stop the world from pulling funding.



#185

Bubble181

Bubble181

Whoops, Israel just decided to blow up some Hezbollah weapon storages in the middle of living neighborhoods in Lebanon. Guess Rafah wasn't enough so they had some ammo to spare.


#186

D

Dubyamn

Over 100 Palestinians killed by Israeli troops while waiting for food aid.

And over 700 wounded in the massacre. Starving people fucking slaughted.


#187

D

Dubyamn

Video of Israel drone striking four unarmed Palestinians.

Somebody want to talk about how Israel is “just defending themselves?” Or how it’s actually very complicated?


#188

Bubble181

Bubble181

Look, these four were unarmed right now, but they could have picked up a rock to throw at the drone at any time. This was just protecting our property by preemptively striking potential perpetrators. The US police does this all the time!


#189

Frank

Frank


Well, now that worldwide support is sinking like a stone, Israel seems to be trying to bait local countries into the conflict.


#190

D

Dubyamn

Israel attacked another aid convoy. Killing 7 humanitarian workers and forcing the World Central Kitchen to halt aid. Netenyahu claims the strike was unintended but it fits really nicely in with Israel using famine as a weapon of war.


#191

Bubble181

Bubble181

"whoops, we really didn't intend for those bombs to hit Iran...And those other ones to hit a bunch of international aid workers. Teehee!"

You've got literally the most technologically advanced army in the world (thanks to the USa using your army as a test site). Your bombs don't accidentally hit anything.


#192

GasBandit

GasBandit

"Oops, that was an accident."

"Three times in a row by accident?"



Basically Israel is targeting relief workers because they want to use famine as a weapon.


#193

HCGLNS

HCGLNS

GasBandit said:
"Oops, that was an accident."

"Three times in a row by accident?"



Basically Israel is targeting relief workers because they want to use famine as a weapon.
Click to expand...
You're missing the part where WCK communicated their route ahead of the departure with everyone, including Israel. Times, vehicles and identifications.

It's just murder.


#194

Bubble181

Bubble181

"Oh, yeah, the accident was using our own missiles instead of shooting ones that made it look like Hamas, not the targeting itself, of course".


#195

@Li3n

@Li3n

Bubble181 said:
And those other ones to hit a bunch of international aid workers. Teehee!"
Click to expand...
Don't worry, they apologised:



Here's video of it too:



#196

Krisken

Krisken

I call bullshit.


#197

PatrThom

PatrThom

Beg forgiveness, etc.

--Patrick


#198

GasBandit

GasBandit

Yeah turns out, no human shields. Just IDF killing civilians.



#199

Bubble181

Bubble181

Yeah, the Lavender AI program is pretty much a walking talking war crime. It (and its like) should be banned for the same reasons we banned land mines, chlorine gas, etc.


#200

Krisken

Krisken

When your fear causes you to become what you hate...


#201

blotsfan

blotsfan

Israel has attacked Iran.


#202

Frank

Frank

Iran pretending nothing happened, thank God.


#203

Bubble181

Bubble181

Frank said:
Iran pretending nothing happened, thank Allah
Click to expand...


#204

Frank

Frank

Same entity.


#205

@Li3n

@Li3n

Arab speaking Christians use the same word, because it just means God.


#206

Frank

Frank

Boy, it's a lot easier to make America mad at students than it is to cover up atrocities.

Guess that's why that's the news now.

The more things change.....


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