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I wish our country did not support these evil, craven murderers. I would rather the US take arms against Israel than any dictatorship in Africa. I think it's way more dangerous for them to have nuclear weapons than North Korea. None of the previous statements are trolling.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...rael-escalates-aerial-airstrikes-assault-gaza

PLO shoots three missiles into Israel. Nobody says anything.
Syria shoots three missiles into Israel. Nobody says anything.
Hamas shoots three missiles into Israel. Nobody says anything.
Israel shoots one missile into Gaza - and the entire freakin' world goes ape####.

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jwhouk said:

Israel shoots one missile into Gaza - and the entire freakin' world goes ape####.

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also you're completely and utterly ignoring the facts and/or obviously haven't read one word about what's going on -

Israeli military spokesman Lt Col Peter Lerner confirmed on Thursday that Israel had struck more than 320 Hamas targets overnight, bringing the total number of targets hit to more than 750 in three days.

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Charlie, what YOU aren't getting is that Israel is getting attacked like downtown Chicago.

If your answer is that the Chicago PD should just sit there and do nothing, you're closer in stature to that idiot who shot up his entire ex-in-law's family in your hometown than to a decent human being.

/disengage_thread

jwhouk said:

Charlie, what YOU aren't getting is that Israel is getting attacked like downtown Chicago.

If your answer is that the Chicago PD should just sit there and do nothing, you're closer in stature to that idiot who shot up his entire ex-in-law's family in your hometown than to a decent human being.

/disengage_thread

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There's a huge fucking gulf between "nothing at all" and a thousand top-of-the-line million dollar missiles. I could give two fucks if you think I'm a decent human being while you gloss over dozens of women and children being slaughtered. If you want to make shitty analogies, if someone smacks your foot with a whiffleball bat, do you empty a magnum into their face?

And in any case, you can construct a cause and effect chain that goes way further back than that.
Israel attacks because they were attacked
Palestine attacks because they were attacked, children were killed
Israel attacks because they were attacked, palestinians are terrorists and cowards
(this a few times)
Palestine attacks because they've had a fucking Iron Curtain built
Israel attacks because they've been attacked
Palestine attacks because they are [at least consider themselves to be] oppressed
Israel attacks because their settlers were attacked
Palestine attacks because they've had more and more of their territory occupied by settlers
Repeat a few times, at some points it's 'Palestine' and at some points it's 'Palestinian groups' (as you go back in time, and palestinians weren't as fucked, terrorists had less and less support, enought to not be identified with the Palestinian 'nation').
So it's unfair to say 'Israel attacks because they were attacked'. Because the attacks didn't come out of the blue.

The fact is that this is a war, and most of the powerful world sides with the powerful, winning side (Israel). It's hard to assess the righteousness of either side, but CLEARLY Palestinians have it harder.

The only reason the Palestinian rockets don't kill anyone is because the Israelis try to keep their citizens alive. Unlike the Palestinians who want dead kids for PR purposes.

blotsfan said:

The only reason the Palestinian rockets don't kill anyone is because the Israelis try to keep their citizens alive. Unlike the Palestinians who want dead kids for PR purposes.

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ahahahaaahahhahahahahaaahahhahhhahhahahaaahahahaah[DOUBLEPOST=1405080808,1405080769][/DOUBLEPOST]

blotsfan said:

The only reason the Palestinian rockets don't kill anyone is because the Israelis try to keep their citizens alive. Unlike the Palestinians who want dead kids for PR purposes.

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everybody read this post really slowly out loud to yourself.

Because as you know, Hamas totally doesn't have the killing of all Jews west of the Jordan river in their constitution. (It does)

And also, their "peace" plan completely doesn't include a clause that would let most (all?) of their population overrun current Israeli territory, making it an arab state by demographics. ("Right to return")

And they really don't drive ambulances around in front of media whenever they can, not actually picking up and treating people. That would be inhumane! (This happens all the time)

And of course it's complete lies that Hamas surrounds their most important locations with women and children for more casualties. That's completely unbelievable! (Proven over and over)


Sarcasm mode off now, if Israel disarmed, they would be overrun and slaughtered. If Hamas (and co.) disarmed, there would be peace.

stienman said:

Given your exceptional understanding of the Middle East, please propose a solution.

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First up, the US stop sending them billions of dollars of aid. Then have the UN condemn Israel as war criminals and all that good stuff.

Eriol said:

Sarcasm mode off now, if Israel disarmed, they would be overrun and slaughtered. If Hamas (and co.) disarmed, there would be peace.

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I'm no expert but I don't think the second part of that is true. Well, I guess it's true for a value of 'peace', but this conflict goes beyond the missiles. There's border issues, there's government of Palestine issues, etc.

As I said, Palestine wasn't always governed by the terrorist organizations (even if government had ties to terrorists). Even then, Israel refused to negotiate many times and powerful factions in israel kept pressing for more settlements, more territories inside Palestine, and a harsh military behaviour against Palestine. We can't ignore the responsibility of Israel in the rise to power of Hamas.[DOUBLEPOST=1405089159,1405088637][/DOUBLEPOST]I was thinking... Actually, there would NOT be peace because the objective of some of those 'powerful factions' is to totally populate the region i.e. settle all over Palestine, isn't it?

I won't pretend that Israel is some shining beacon of all is right in the world (they aren't), but I gotta agree with others Charlie, it's way more complicated than you are making it out to be. Should Israel react in the violent way they do? That is a very debatable subject. Do they need to react that way? That is also a very debatable subject. But it's not entirely fair to just say they are the "bad guys" here.

I'm not saying you are wrong, I think anyone with even a small amount of common sense can see that Israel has some... issues, but the overall problem of peace is so much more complicated than just one side giving in to the other at this point. Honestly, it's probably beyond resolution until someone blows the other off the map. I think thats terribly sad, but you aren't dealing with people on either side who value human life more than their states/political/national/whatever rights IMO.

stienman said:

Given your exceptional understanding of the Middle East, please propose a solution.

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Well, obviously he is unhappy because there are not enough dead Israelis.

--Patrick

PatrThom said:

Well, obviously he is unhappy because there are not enough dead Israelis.

--Patrick

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The optimal graph above would have zero dead Israelis and zero dead Palestinians.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

The optimal graph above would have zero dead Israelis and zero dead Palestinians.

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That will only occur after Palestine is re-established according to how Hamas sees that happening. Because everybody Jewish will be DEAD. Until Hamas' charter changes, that's what will happen.

Also, how come Israel wants the dead kids when they prosecute the Israelis that intentionally kill Palestinian children while Hamas supports the Palestinians who intentionally kill Israeli ones?

Eriol said:

That will only occur after Palestine is re-established according to how Hamas sees that happening. Because everybody Jewish will be DEAD. Until Hamas' charter changes, that's what will happen.

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Yeah, I mean, all terrorism problems end either with the terrorists winning or with all of them dead or in prison.

You can search every word in this thread, and I don't think you'll find one praising Hamas or saying they're good people. Your argument is that Israel can't be bad because Hamas is bad, I don't know the fancy latin, but that's bullshit?

Charlie Don't Surf said:

The optimal graph above would have zero dead Israelis and zero dead Palestinians.

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Ideally, you should have no trouble convincing anyone of this...unless they are Israeli or Palestinian, of course.

--Patrick

PatrThom said:

Ideally, you should have no trouble convincing anyone of this...unless they are Israeli or Palestinian, of course.

--Patrick

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And that seems to be the issue. Two political extremes who want to either wipe out, destroy or force submission upon the other. There's no simple answer other than either side getting exactly what it wants. And thats no solution.

Espy said:

And that seems to be the issue. Two political extremes who want to either wipe out, destroy or force submission upon the other. There's no simple answer other than either side getting exactly what it wants. And thats no solution.

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I'm pretty sure you just described Congress.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

You can search every word in this thread, and I don't think you'll find one praising Hamas or saying they're good people. Your argument is that Israel can't be bad because Hamas is bad, I don't know the fancy latin, but that's bullshit?

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Hamas has it in its charter that their struggle is between Islam and Judaism. And to kill every Jew in what they consider their territory, and that giving up even a piece of it is renouncing Islam. (That's even without searching hard)

I'm not saying Israel is "Good" with a capital "G", but only that at looking at two entities in this struggle, as long as Hamas has supporters, there will never be peace.

Israel is our only true, unswerving ally in the region, and it's in our best interest to keep them alive and armed to the teeth. The palestinians are deliberately provoking them to try and gin up monetary support from liberal sympathizers, as their income has been on the decline for the last six or eight years. Hundreds of rockets have been fired into Israel from residential areas in Gaza in the last week. That they haven't been effective isn't particularly relevant. And really, the true blame for the continued plight of the palestinians largely rests with their arab neighbors who refused to take them in because they are desirous of a permanent "victim" card to play against Israel.


And, as others have said...

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Espy said:

And that seems to be the issue. Two political extremes who want to either wipe out, destroy or force submission upon the other. There's no simple answer other than either side getting exactly what it wants. And thats no solution.

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Not to mention the last time there was a big sit down, everything that palestine demanded was granted them in the final document, and Arafat still refused to sign it because it would remove their casus belli.

Palestine doesn't want peace, palestine has demonstrated repeatedly it wants to destroy Israel.

If Isreal could even remotely pretend control their illegal settlers then I would be a lot more willing to defend them.[DOUBLEPOST=1405113093,1405112994][/DOUBLEPOST]

GasBandit said:

Israel is our only true, unswerving ally in the region, and it's in our best interest to keep them alive and armed to the teeth. .

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Iraq was a pretty important ally once as well. Not saying it's the same but we can't excuse the actions of our allies out of fear of offending them. In fact its the exact opposite, if they want us to keep supporting them as allies they need to stop the settlements.[DOUBLEPOST=1405113302][/DOUBLEPOST]It's a borderline privateer system currently.

Some opinion column reading on the subject.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2014/07/israeli_settlements_are_not_illegal.html

blotsfan said:

Also, how come Israel wants the dead kids when they prosecute the Israelis that intentionally kill Palestinian children while Hamas supports the Palestinians who intentionally kill Israeli ones?

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Yeah, not so sure about this. Israel has a pretty strong history of barely prosecuting settlers. Sure, if there's some really obvious murder then they will go after it, but they don't really do much to protect the Palestinians. I don't think people really understand how nasty the issue with settlers is.[DOUBLEPOST=1405113856,1405113678][/DOUBLEPOST]

GasBandit said:

Some opinion column reading on the subject.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2014/07/israeli_settlements_are_not_illegal.html

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Even that editorial says that half of the settlements are considered illegal by the Israeli government. Even if you are willing to excuse the "legal" settlements, there is no excuse for the wildcat settlements, and Israels tacit approval of them.[DOUBLEPOST=1405113971][/DOUBLEPOST]And don't get me wrong. I have nothing against occupation really. It's the settlements that are messed up.[DOUBLEPOST=1405114048][/DOUBLEPOST]As someone who is big on property rights I am really surprised to see you backing the settlements.

Necronic said:

As someone who is big on property rights I am really surprised to see you backing the settlements.

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As far as I know, the settlements aren't displacing anyone, it's just that they're where a non-sovereign nation says they can't be. It's not a property rights issue unless the land is actually someone's property.

Property gets pretty confusing in that area, no doubt. But there are people losing farms and grazing lands that their families have worked for generations. Short of a good property management bureaucracy like you would find in the US I would consider that a viable claim to their land.

stienman said:

So as long as they don't displace anyone, then you're ok with Mexico and Canada allowing settlements across the US border?

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Sovereign vs Non.

So since they are without a nation they effectively have no rights to property? I mean, that's the Israeli line I guess. Just sounds ridiculous to me.

stienman said:

By who's definition? Does the "non sovereign" nation agree with that assessment?

I jus think that's a rather facile and conveniently one sided argument.

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Palestine is a de facto client state of ever decreasing legitimacy. Do your kids agree with everything you decide for them?

In my mind, Palestine ceased to legitimately exist as a negotiable entity when they walked away from the aforementioned peace negotiation when their every demand was met simply because it allowed Israel to exist in any way, with not even so much as a counter proposal.

Sympathizing with Palestine is like saying cancer has a right to live, too.

Also, if people truly cared about the Palestinians, they'd be encouraging Israel to take over the land since then they'd be in a state where there is freedom of speech and freedom of religion as opposed to another repressive muslim theocracy.

My wife is starting a podcast called Internet Fight Night. I think this thread would be perfect for an episode.

stienman said:

Israel does not have freedom of religion. They allow citizens freedom to worship according to their religion, and practice their religion where it doesn't conflict with law. But there are many religious practices that are disallowed, for instance proselytizing. Further, it does have a state religion, and much of society and it's laws adhere to that religion to one degree or another, forcing the rest of society into the same paths already set forth in that religion.

As far as integration of Palestine and it's people, neither side would accept it. The Israelis would not want their government changed by people not of their faith, they strictly limit non-Jewish immigration in order to avoid this sort of situation.

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Even with those faults, is it worse than "if you're not muslim we want you dead"? There are plenty of Arabs in Israel that are part of normal society. Yes, the hardcore conservative Jews cause some shitty stuff to be allowed, but to call Israel one of the worst countries in the world like Charlie has done is absurd.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

ahahahaaahahhahahahahaaahahhahhhahhahahaaahahahaah[DOUBLEPOST=1405080808,1405080769][/DOUBLEPOST]

everybody read this post really slowly out loud to yourself.

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Nope. The Palestinians don't encourage civilians to get hit by missiles. Not at all...

Also, if Israel wants to kill women and children, giving them advance notice of where the missiles will fire seems a tad bit counter-intuitive.

Here's my core issue. The right wing of the Israel Military Industrial Complex (brought to you by your US Tax Dollars) and Hamas are probably equally bloodthirsty, but only one of those sides has access to nukes and infinite cruise missiles and fighter jets.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

Here's my core issue. The right wing of the Israel Military Industrial Complex (brought to you by your US Tax Dollars) and Hamas are probably equally bloodthirsty, but only one of those sides has access to nukes and infinite cruise missiles and fighter jets.

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Yes, and so it has been for half a century. And yet the middle east is not a smoldering radioactive crater. I think this speaks to which side can be trusted to show restraint when necessary, and which side does anything within its power to claw the other to death as bloodily and publicly as possible.

GasBandit said:

Yes, and so it has been for half a century. And yet the middle east is not a smoldering radioactive crater. I think this speaks to which side can be trusted to show restraint when necessary, and which side does anything within its power to claw the other to death as bloodily and publicly as possible.

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Eh... I trust Israel to not throw nukes around, but when I think of Israel, I don't really think of 'restraint'. I'm not anti-Israel, but if a cease-fire were ever to be worked out, I don't think Israel would be able to stop themselves from being provoked into opening fire again.

That whole region is just a mess, and I don't think it will ever not be a mess.

We need someone like China (not Russia, and definitely not the US. Someone without a dog in this fight.) to drag both sides to the table, and punch them in the face repeatedly until a deal is struck. With the proviso that any breach by either side will result in multiple kicks to the balls to both.

And I'm talking real, literal punches to the face. In front of TV cameras and everything. with repeated shouts of "the rest of us are sick and tired of your bullshit!" in English, Chinese, Arabic, and Hebrew with every blow.

Will this be on Pay-per-View?

DarkAudit said:

We need someone like China (not Russia, and definitely not the US. Someone without a dog in this fight.) to drag both sides to the table, and punch them in the face repeatedly until a deal is struck. With the proviso that any breach by either side will result in multiple kicks to the balls to both.

And I'm talking real, literal punches to the face. In front of TV cameras and everything. with repeated shouts of "the rest of us are sick and tired of your bullshit!" in English, Chinese, Arabic, and Hebrew with every blow.

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You know, I think I could get behind this "leader of the country is held physically accountable for nation's official actions" thing.

GasBandit said:

You know, I think I could get behind this "leader of the country is held physically accountable for nation's official actions" thing.

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I'm pretty sure we already did that with Saddam Hussein. Went on trial, found guilty of crimes against humanity, put to death.

AshburnerX said:

I'm pretty sure we already did that with Saddam Hussein. Went on trial, found guilty of crimes against humanity, put to death.

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Yeah, but we need it for lesser things too. Not just war crimes. Like DA suggested... a sock in the jaw on TV for breaking a treaty.

GasBandit said:

Yeah, but we need it for lesser things too. Not just war crimes. Like DA suggested... a sock in the jaw on TV for breaking a treaty.

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And 535 of them just for being a member of Congress.

Actually, no. 5350 of them. In that case grab 'em by the collar and 10 quick rights to the head.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/li...alestinian-death-toll-passes-700-live-updates

Israel cannot resist blowing up a UN School holding refugees

At least 15 were killed in the Israeli strike on a compound housing a U.N. school in the northern Gaza Strip, according to Gaza health officials, the AP reports:

Gaza health official Ashraf al-Kidra says the 15 were among hundreds of people seeking shelter in the school in Beit Hanoun from heavy fighting in the area. At least 150 people were injured.
Thursday's strike is the fourth time a U.N. facility has been hit in fighting between Israel and Palestinian militants in Gaza, which is ruled by the Islamic militant group Hamas. But it's the first time casualties have been reported.​

A CNN correspondent tweets:

Bait Hanoun update: 15 dead, and 70 injured, including critical injuries in strike on UN facility sheltering civilians. Chaos. #Gaza
— benwedeman (@bencnn) July 24, 2014​

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Ya, because they weren't caught storing rockets for Hamas more than once.

Also, remember in that article how they called Hamas to remove them. Not another UN agency to DESTROY them. No, no, they make sure the terrorists can still (try to) kill Jews with them.


So, UN personnel are providing "safe havens" for Hamas rockets. That's the real story here. Israel went after the weapons cache. Hamas is using innocents as human shields yet again.

Did you even read that article? Those rockets were found in vacant schools, NOT the one that was hit. And it wasn't the UN storing them. The UN was pissed that this was happening. They were not providing "safe havens" for the rockets. Yes, they didn't destroy them, which is strange, but there are a lot of possible reasons for that, including the fact that they probably are not equipped to do that (UNRWA is not a military organization from what I understand). Also, the UN is not trying to pick sides here, destroying the rockets could actually hurt their ability to safely operate around Hamas. The fact that the staff was immediately evacuated after the discovery only suggests this further.

Look, the UN needs to be more careful with this, and they probably should have destroyed the rockets. But come ON. It was OK to shell a shelter filled with refugees because in the past rockets have been found in other vacant shelters? THAT's your justification?

I'm no fan of Hamas's tactics, and I think they are equally culpable in most of the civilian deaths that have occurred. But it is really hard to blame anyone other than Israel for this specific incident given then current facts. And the fact that the spin is turned up to 11 on this one doesn't help either.

ed

Ban has asked the UN Department of Safety and Security and the UN Mine Action Service to develop and implement a plan for the safe and secure handling of any weapons discovered on UN premises.

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take from this what you will. Backs up my argument pretty well from what I can tell.

Good article. Probably could have done without the comparison to the holocaust.

The problem with his article is that it, and everything it talks about, in no way talks about the settlement issue or the other issues like a lack of legal personhood that the Palestinians are experiencing that put them in such a desperate frame of mind where they are willing to accept Hamas leadership.

I think it's been broadly appreciated over history that when you treat people like this they will quite likely fight back any way possible, even blatantly crossing the line as Hamas has done.

Take for instance the French Revolution. The revolutionaries were temporary heroes at best, monsters at worst. They brutally murdered the aristocracy of their country, and ended up in a totalitarian state no better and possibly far worse than the monarchy they started with, but it was because they had been pushed so far to the breaking point that they did not fight to win hearts and minds, they fought like drowning rats.

It cuts both ways though. The Israelis have, as the author mentioned, been in a stage of siege warfare against unpredictable....well...terrorists, for so long that they have also become desperate, so desperate that they shelled a fucking refugee camp and are trying to blow it off.

I understand both sides in this to a degree. I even understand the accidental shelling. It does happen, fuck the US does it all the time. But we at least pay lip service to "hearts and minds". Patreus made that a core part of our strategy, limiting civilian casualties (even if we did fail spectacularly).

What I don't understand is that I don't even see the lip service to that from Israel. I don't think they care anymore. And I also do NOT understand why the root causes are ignored by Israel. Why aren't they stopping the Wildcat settlements?

They say that Hamas is ultimately responsible for civilian casualties because they use human shields, and I agree with that. But by that same logic aren't they equally responsible for the rockets when they do nothing to stop wildcatters who steal land which then promotes Hamas? What advantage is there to allowing that? I honestly wonder if they aren't doing it at some level simply to provoke Hamas.

At the end of the day everyone loses.

Necronic, you've bought into the hype if you think this is actually about any land EXCEPT everything between the Jordan river and the Mediterranean: aka, all of Israel. Really. The settlements, wildcat or otherwise are excuses. Those in charge want every Jew in that area killed. Or anywhere really. It's that extreme. If you say the things in-between have driven that to them, that may even be true, but the situation now is as extreme as I stated. It's in the Hamas charter. The rest is window-dressing to try and get the worst headlines possible for the human shield thing.

"Those in charge"

I don't think your average Palestinian actually wants all Israelis dead. Hamas does, absolutely, but I think Hamas has been able to take control of Palestine because of how desperate the Palestinians are. I don't think the Irish wanted the IRA either.

Eriol said:

Necronic, you've bought into the hype if you think this is actually about any land EXCEPT everything between the Jordan river and the Mediterranean: aka, all of Israel. Really. The settlements, wildcat or otherwise are excuses. Those in charge want every Jew in that area killed. Or anywhere really. It's that extreme. If you say the things in-between have driven that to them, that may even be true, but the situation now is as extreme as I stated. It's in the Hamas charter. The rest is window-dressing to try and get the worst headlines possible for the human shield thing.

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Yes, the people presently in charge are extremists and terrorists. But that is still ignoring the root causes. Hamas came to power in 2006 I think, do you think whatever happened earlier is of no importance? The settlements were a problem before that, undermining Yasser Arafat's authority was important, shortage of water, medicine etc was probably important, hell, they started to build the West Bank Wall well before Hamas governed (2000)! If Hamas has gained more and more influence because all of these things, it's not unreasonable to think that they will lose some of it if Israel compromises on some of those things Hamas will lose some support.
Or maybe things have gone beyond that point. But I think it's clear that if Israel does not want to try any of these solutions, the solution they are choosing is slow extermination of the palestinians (directly but also and mostly by increasingly harsher living conditions)

I'd like to remind everyone that in the past there has already been an offer of peace on the table where Palestine could have persisted as an independent state and Israel would have helped/financed rebuilding the country. Some of the settlements would have been returned as well. Palestine was literally getting almost everything it wanted.

It was rejected because it would have allowed the state of Israel to continue to exist. That's really all you need to know about the conflict at this point.

Well fuck man I guess Jews should just go and start grabbing land in Germany. Because they were literally Nazis.

Oh wait that's not how it works. And with good reason.

Getting hung up on the past is tricky over there. Because it cuts both ways, and it cuts hard:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qibya_massacre

How would you feel if the perpetrator of a straight up war crime (Ariel Sharon) was the person offering you an olive branch? I would have a problem with it too. You think he election of Hamas is problematic? How was his election not?

ed: And ironically he might have been the best hope for the peace process over there. What a mess...

Good article from the Atlantic about the current failure of the peace talks. Yeesh.

http://www.theatlantic.com/internat...ael-palestine-peace-process-collapsed/374758/

ed: Much longer article that it was sourced from:

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118751/how-israel-palestine-peace-deal-died

Every hand that can hold out an olive branch will have blood on it.

You don't make peace treaties with your friends.

AshburnerX said:

I'd like to remind everyone that in the past there has already been an offer of peace on the table where Palestine could have persisted as an independent state and Israel would have helped/financed rebuilding the country. Some of the settlements would have been returned as well. Palestine was literally getting almost everything it wanted.

It was rejected because it would have allowed the state of Israel to continue to exist. That's really all you need to know about the conflict at this point.

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As far as I'm concerned, when Palestine walked out of that arrangement without so much as even a counteroffer, when it gave them everything they wanted, simply because it removed their cassus belli and forced them to accept that israel would exist, they abdicated all legitimacy and claims to possible nationhood. Palestine no longer exists other than by the sufferance of the conscience of Israel and its allies, and they poke at that hard and often.

There is no Palestine. Palestinians need to get busy assimilating either into Israel or whatever neighboring nation will take them. Oh, what's that? The neighboring Arab nations have intentionally exacerbated the plight of the Palestinians by refusing any and all Palestinian refugees? Well shucky darn, it's almost as if they want the proxy war to continue forever as well!

Palestinians who try assimilating into Israel are in for pretty much the same shitfest they have outside Israel, minus the bombings. If you're of Arab descent, you're assumed to be a criminal and potential terrorist. Not to mention, Hamas considers them traitors. They aren't just using Palestinians as human shields; they "encourage" their participation and support of Hamas, and not in a friendly way.

GasBandit said:

As far as I'm concerned, when Palestine walked out of that arrangement without so much as even a counteroffer, when it gave them everything they wanted, simply because it removed their cassus belli and forced them to accept that israel would exist, they abdicated all legitimacy and claims to possible nationhood. Palestine no longer exists other than by the sufferance of the conscience of Israel and its allies, and they poke at that hard and often.

There is no Palestine. Palestinians need to get busy assimilating either into Israel or whatever neighboring nation will take them. Oh, what's that? The neighboring Arab nations have intentionally exacerbated the plight of the Palestinians by refusing any and all Palestinian refugees? Well shucky darn, it's almost as if they want the proxy war to continue forever as well!

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Seriously? What other country has ever been treated like this. We didn't treat any of the Axis powers this way regardless of how bad they fucked up (ok we DID nuke japan). People make mistakes, and you don't blame the populace for the sins of its leaders.

Shit Israel has definitely made it's fair share. The very first UN ambassador set to negotiate a truce was assassinated by Jews ffs.

Read up on the Sterm Gang or whatever they were called some time. These assholes actually refused to back the British against the Nazis because they saw both as evil. Does that myopia remind you of another group that makes equally retarded and short sighted statements.

Palestine is not the first country to stop existing. But it is probably one of the more deserving of the fate. Arafat's government was more moderate than Hamas and they're still the ones that walked out of the camp david accords. Gaza (and golan heights for that matter) is a swamp that needed draining, and frankly, I think Israel has been beyond patient and forgiving with having a rogue terrorist state within its own borders.

After all, it's rather poetic that, having denied that Israel should exist for over 50 years now, that Palestine is the one that vanishes instead.

GasBandit said:

Palestine is not the first country to stop existing. But it is probably one of the more deserving of the fate. Arafat's government was more moderate than Hamas and they're still the ones that walked out of the camp david accords. Gaza (and golan heights for that matter) is a swamp that needed draining, and frankly, I think Israel has been beyond patient and forgiving with having a rogue terrorist state within its own borders.

After all, it's rather poetic that, having denied that Israel should exist for over 50 years now, that Palestine is the one that vanishes instead.

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This is basically my opinion. Palestine is a failed state at this point for it's complete unwillingness to engage in political process.

GasBandit said:

Palestine is not the first country to stop existing. But it is probably one of the more deserving of the fate. Arafat's government was more moderate than Hamas and they're still the ones that walked out of the camp david accords. Gaza (and golan heights for that matter) is a swamp that needed draining, and frankly, I think Israel has been beyond patient and forgiving with having a rogue terrorist state within its own borders.

After all, it's rather poetic that, having denied that Israel should exist for over 50 years now, that Palestine is the one that vanishes instead.

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You almost make it sound like it should have its own Tumblr page.

--Patrick

PatrThom said:

You almost make it sound like it should have its own Tumblr page.

--Patrick

Click to expand...

A quick google tells me it has several.

I think there is a very poor/superficial understanding of history at play here. And of the reality of politics really. If you think you could dissolve the state of Palestine and the Middle East would go along with it...what fantasy world are you living in?

Or have we given up on talking about reality?

What's fantasy is the concept that the rest of the middle east will ever conceptually accept Israel's existence. They have to put up with it because they've learned the hard way they can't kill it by overt force, so they've got to use terrorism and useful foreign sympathy.

Necronic said:

I think there is a very poor/superficial understanding of history at play here. And of the reality of politics really. If you think you could dissolve the state of Palestine and the Middle East would go along with it...what fantasy world are you living in?

Or have we given up on talking about reality?

Click to expand...

Israel has already proven that it can do whatever the hell it wants back during the Six Day War. If Egypt (it's neighbor and one of the strongest militaries in the region) couldn't do shit to them and was in fact curb stomped, do you really think anyone else will fare better? Not to mention that it's an open secret that Israel has nukes and is prepared to level the entire region if it looks like they might cease to exist. So no... they won't do ANYTHING to Israel.

stienman said:

Reality is an illusion. Middle-East reality doubly so.

Click to expand...

Tell that to the millions living there. Sure the borders were arbitrary and made up (as are Israels), but people live there and they have views.

GasBandit said:

What's fantasy is the concept that the rest of the middle east will ever conceptually accept Israel's existence. They have to put up with it because they've learned the hard way they can't kill it by overt force, so they've got to use terrorism and useful foreign sympathy.

Click to expand...

And yet now here you are saying that they should just except the nonexistence of Palestine? Do you not see the irony there? Neither are realistic solutions.

Sure, Palestinian leaders screwed up bad by not accepting the peace deal back in the 60s. But people in glass houses should not throw stones. As has been mentioned before there is enough blood to go around, both sides have made horrendous mistakes.[DOUBLEPOST=1406303625,1406303284][/DOUBLEPOST]

AshburnerX said:

Israel has already proven that it can do whatever the hell it wants back during the Six Day War. If Egypt (it's neighbor and one of the strongest militaries in the region) couldn't do shit to them and was in fact curb stomped, do you really think anyone else will fare better? Not to mention that it's an open secret that Israel has nukes and is prepared to level the entire region if it looks like they might cease to exist. So no... they won't do ANYTHING to Israel.

Click to expand...

Boy you're doing a real good job making the Israelis look like the good guys here.

Also, if you really think that Israel could stand against a sustained massed military uprising from multiple middle eastern players then you are...well. America could barely beat the Taliban. An organized military strike backed with religious popular approval from multiple members of the middle east would leave millions dead on both sides. You think the threat of nukes would stop them? Israel would have to deploy those nukes. I don't see anyone being a victor in that.

There is a different between winning and not losing. America would never lose to the Taliban, that's insane. And Israel probably wouldn't lose against a massed uprising in the middle east. But they sure as hell wouldn't win.

Honestly I doubt theres any real solution here other than continuous violence. I just don't see how anything else can happen. Probably not nuclear war, because no one wants that, but just non-stop, continual death and destruction.

Necronic said:

And yet now here you are saying that they should just except the nonexistence of Palestine? Do you not see the irony there? Neither are realistic solutions.

Click to expand...

The difference is Israel has the wherewithal to make it happen. Like I said, there is only a Palestine right now because Israel thinks it'd be less of a hassle for them to try a little appeasement. Obviously their patience is wearing thin. One must wonder how long before a complete change in opinion, and there no longer is any Palestinian land at all. Who would stop it? Unless Russia decided to get involved, there's practically nobody willing to repeat Egypt's mistake, especially since it'll definitely drag the US in.

Sure, Palestinian leaders screwed up bad by not accepting the peace deal back in the 60s. But people in glass houses should not throw stones. As has been mentioned before there is enough blood to go around, both sides have made horrendous mistakes.

Click to expand...

Oh, Palestinian leadership has done a lot worse a lot more recently. The treaty Ash and I were talking about that Arafat walked away from was in 2000. It's been a rising scale of terrorism and media manipulation ever since.

stienman said:

And this is because there are players involved in the argument that are actively supporting Palestine with arms because they benefit from an Israel that is always keeping its eyes on Palestine rather than elsewhere.

If Hamas didn't have rockets from outside their borders, they wouldn't have been able to provoke Israel in this way, and this current conflagration wouldn't exist.

Israel has some support, yes, but they could and would be totally self-sufficient in providing their own defense if they had to be. They are a nation that is self sustaining.

Palestine isn't. They only exist because others outside their borders continue to supply and fund them. They are not able to sustain themselves, and not only in defense but in taking care of their own people.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't call Israel self sustaining. We give more money and military aid to them than any other country in the world. They exist as a remora on the US military industrial complex. This isn't to say that they wouldn't be able to self sustain from here on, I think they would in some form, but they get like half their military budget directly from us, not to mention the favorable arms deals we have with them.

Your points abou Plaestine are completely correct as well though, they exist militarily solely through donations from outside parties as well. But instead of being backed by the US, the strongest military and economy in the entire world, they are backed by Jordan/Syria/shithole countries.

It's a real David vs Goliath situation, except in this version David is a total asshole who uses civilian casualties and human shields instead of a sling.

Huh, I had the 3 billion number but the number I had for the Israeli military budget was 6 bil.

Anywho. That's an interesting point. So do you think that the only reason Israel doesn't just go full out full spectrum warrior on Palestine is potential to lose US military aid?

That just seems so damned backward. On the other hand one of the other largest recipients of military aid from us is Egypt. If we were funding Israel to directly help protect them then we wouldn't be simultaneously funding Egypt.

However, if we were protecting Israel "from itself" by tying our aid to them (and Egypt) to an understanding that they limited exercise of military power...

Man. That's sort of fucked up, but it also makes a lot of sense. We're arming them to keep them from using their arms in ways we don't like. We DID cut off military aid after the Qibya massacre iirc.

This is why US is a world power. And also why we kind of suck. If I inderstand this correctly.

Egypt hasn't been interested in getting "into" the conflict there since the late 70s? 80s? The guy (Nasser I think) got assassinated for establishing "regular" relations with Israel. Other alliances (Saudi) are somewhat weirder with regards to this conflict. They have a border with Gaza though, which they keep closed (if possible).

Eriol said:

Egypt hasn't been interested in getting "into" the conflict there since the late 70s? 80s? The guy (Nasser I think) got assassinated for establishing "regular" relations with Israel. Other alliances (Saudi) are somewhat weirder with regards to this conflict. They have a border with Gaza though, which they keep closed (if possible).

Click to expand...

No one wants 7 million unemployed people showing up on their doorstep. If Egypt and Israel trade blows again, it's going to be if Israel dissolves Palestine and millions of Arabs are suddenly trying their luck away from the people who just blew up their home. It'll be on the Sinnai and it'll be quick, but it'll happen.

AshburnerX said:

No one wants 7 million unemployed people showing up on their doorstep. If Egypt and Israel trade blows again, it's going to be if Israel dissolves Palestine and millions of Arabs are suddenly trying their luck away from the people who just blew up their home. It'll be on the Sinnai and it'll be quick, but it'll happen.

Click to expand...

If they can get there. The Gaza/Egypt border is just as fenced off and secured as the one with Israel. Getting "through" isn't a simple thing.

I was more directing my comments on how funding both Israel and Egypt militarily isn't necessarily a conflict of interest, that's all.

Ok but there's definitely a LOT of bad blood there. And as unstable as Egypt is who knows what next years policy will be.

ed: That is a truly excellent article Steinman.

I'm curious how a peaceful protest would be treated. Not the useless U.S. kind with posters, but more Salt March.

from The Guardian's live coverage today:

Summary

We're going to wrap up our live blog coverage for the day. Here's a summary of where things stand:

• Diplomatic efforts in Cairo led by US secretary of state John Kerry failed to produce a ceasefire deal in the Gaza conflict. The diplomats were to resume work in Paris on Saturday.
• There were signs the Israeli military operation was preparing to expand. The Israeli defense minister told troops in the field, "you need to be ready for the possibility that very soon we will instruct the military to significantly broaden the ground operation in Gaza."
• 864 Palestinians have been killed in the conflict and at least 5,730 have been wounded, according to the health ministry.
• 160,487 displaced people filled 83 UNRWA shelters in Gaza,according to the agency's latest count.
• Two Israeli soldiers were killed in Gaza Friday. 35 Israeli soldiers have been killed since the start of the conflict.
• Large protests unfolded on Friday in the West Bank, with multiple violent clashes. At least five Palestinians were killed, including one shot dead by a settler from a passing car.
• The IDF said it had discovered 30 tunnels out of Gaza,detroyed "30-40% of Hamas' rocket arsenal" and "eliminated over 240 terrorists."
• Strikes on Gaza continued late on Friday. An unnamed US official said Netanyahu agreed to a US proposal for a 12-hour 'pause' in strikes Saturday.
• Hezbollah leader Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah pledged full support on Friday to "our brothers in Gaza".
• An Israeli police spokesman said a lone cell not operating under Hamas leadership was responsible for the abduction and killing of three Israeli teens last month.
• A UN team had to cut short a visit to the scene of Thursday's attackon a school in Beit Hanoun when it encountered gunfire

Click to expand...

At least now people can drop that stuff about Hamas killing the Israeli teens, if anyone cares about the truth at this point.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/li...palestinian-protesters-west-bank-live-updates

So, a hospital and refugee camp in Gaza were hit by airstrikes.

IDF response:



NBC:

This was fun.

Ah yes Russell Brand, exactly who I was waiting to weigh in on the Israel-Palestine situation.

Is he starting another revolution again?

Charlie Don't Surf said:

Ah yes Russell Brand, exactly who I was waiting to weigh in on the Israel-Palestine situation.

Click to expand...

I normally dont care for him much either. Here though he spends most of his time making fun of Hannity and his "debate" style. Even you can get behind that.

Krisken said:

I normally dont care for him much either. Here though he spends most of his time making fun of Hannity and his "debate" style. Even you can get behind that.

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Sure, Ad Hominems always prove the superiority of one's ill-informed opinion.

The worst thing about all of this is that people are dying. Doesn't matter what side of the fence they're on.

GasBandit said:

Sure, Ad Hominems always prove the superiority of one's ill-informed opinion.

Click to expand...

Of course you would say that.

--Patrick

PatrThom said:

Of course you would say that.

--Patrick

Click to expand...

Careful, that's courting a fallacious argumentum ad knuckle sandwich.

GasBandit said:

Careful, that's courting a fallacious argumentum ad knuckle sandwich.

Click to expand...

--Patrick

PatrThom said:

View attachment 15481

--Patrick

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I know,I got it. When have I ever actually threatened anyone with physical violence here, eh?

If you'd like to follow Israel's wanton destruction of UN schools and murder of sleeping children:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/li...vists-as-it-maintains-offensive-live-coverage

Summary

• The Israeli prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, has once more said that he will not agree to a ceasefire that stops Israel continuing the destruction of the Gaza border tunnels. The chief of Israeli forces in Gaza said yesterday that their destruction was “a few days away”.
• Israel has continued heavy shelling of Gaza despite international condemnation of the bombing of a UN school yesterday that killed at least 17. Rocket fire has continued from Gaza.
• The UN human rights chief Navi Pillay has accused Israel of “deliberate defiance” of international law. She said of attacks on homes, schools, hospitals and UN premises that “none of this appears to me to be accidental”. Pillay also said that by placing and firing rockets, Hamas was committing “a violation of international humanitarian law, therefore a war crime.”
• The latest death toll in Gaza, according to the health ministry, is 1,364, including 315 children, with 6,780 injured.Fifty-six Israeli soldiers have been killed and more than 400 wounded. Three civilians have been killed in Palestinian shelling in Israel.
• The International Federation of Journalists (IFJ) says that eight journalists have been killed since the start of the Gaza offensive. It said that Israel “must be held accountable for these atrocities”.

Click to expand...

UN calls Israel a disgrace to the world

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/30/world-disgrace-gaza-un-shelter-school-israel

The United States continues to give Israel ammunition to increase the number of schools destroyed at the same time they firmly ask Israel to maybe stop killing so many children:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/30/us-firm-condemnation-shelling-un-school-gaza

That's not surprising. South Park hit the nail on the head years ago when an episode suggested the United States was founded on the premise of "say one thing and do another".

Israel would really like Russia to do another stupid thing and draw attention from this.

Even taking account of Arafat walking away, and now Hamas, seems there's never been much power for the people suffering in all this. They have people with guns telling them to fight Israel, they have people with guns telling them to fight Hamas, they have countries telling them Do Not Enter. And while trapped, Israel now bombs the shit out of them because to Israel, the only way to Hamas is through their human shields. The death toll names how many Palestinians are dead and how many Israelis, but I wonder if they know how many of those Palestinians belonged to Hamas. Has all this killed the leaders of Hamas? Has it led to the death of even one ordinary member of Hamas? Has Israel accomplished anything? Far as they're concerned, they can never stop this attack. The moment the Palestinians have time to collect themselves, there would be a massive push to join Hamas.

I have to wonder if Israel will actually stop this themselves before they've flattened Gaza. I agree with the U.N. that the collateral damage seems intentional. "Hamas, you're hiding your weapons behind children? Then we will kill children. You have members in hospitals? We will blow up hospitals." Even if those weapons or Hamas members have already left the premises, gotta be sure, yeah? I mean, have they thought of where this ends? Earlier in the thread, Charlie suggested it wouldn't end until Israel backs down, but another possible end is the elimination of anyone who isn't Israeli in that area.

Legit question, I am curious, is there any consequence Israel would face if they attempted an ethnic cleansing?

Zero Esc said:

I am curious, is there any consequence Israel faces for attempting an ethnic cleansing?

Click to expand...

AFAIK no, the UN has no real power, and Israel does not accept the authority of the International Criminal Court and the UN has no real power. So the only consequences would be whatever measures specific countries or groups of countries (such as the US or EU) threaten with or just take afterwards.

If they really go too far, to the level of "ethnic cleansing", they would lose all backing from the United States and NATO and probably be attacked en mass by Jordan/Syria/Saudi/etc etc. They've lost US backing before when they've gone too far.

Necronic said:

If they really go too far, to the level of "ethnic cleansing", they would lose all backing from the United States and NATO and probably be attacked en mass by Jordan/Syria/Saudi/etc etc. They've lost US backing before when they've gone too far.

Click to expand...

Would they? I'm not so sure. Honestly I think a lot of people, especially far right evangelical christians would find some easy ways to justify it. And politicians are far to scared to lose the political capital that comes with supporting Israel. Besides, it wouldn't an "ethnic cleansing" it would "defending themselves".

Necronic said:

If they really go too far, to the level of "ethnic cleansing", they would lose all backing from the United States and NATO and probably be attacked en mass by Jordan/Syria/Saudi/etc etc. They've lost US backing before when they've gone too far.

Click to expand...

So intentionally shelling schools and UN refugee areas aren't enough? Guess not.

Senate votes to give $225 million to Israel.

US Condemns Shelling of School...but Pentagon restocks Israeli ammunition.

So I guess as long as it's little Muslim kids are being killed it's fine.

How many civilians died in bombing raids in any given major war of the last hundred years? It's a sad fact of war that innocents die in it. Israel does what it has to do to ensure its security and continued survival. How many thousands of rocket launches should they have to put up with before they act? The villains here are Hamas, for putting materiel under bassinets, and the UN is, as usual, filled with hypocrites and malefactors.

I agree that Hamas is the villain. But the places that are being shelled are NOT Hamas. If Hamas were hiding behind human shields in these cases I could understand, but they were not. These were UN sanctioned and INSPECTED places that were supposed to be neutral humanitarian sanctuaries. But fuck it. I guess Israel can do no wrong. I mean, it's perfectly reasonable that if someone throws a rock at me I should be allowed to kill them, their families, and anyone else whom I think they might know. Because, you know, defending myself. There has to be some level of proportionality.

GasBandit said:

The villains here are Hamas, .

Click to expand...

Calling either side Heroes and Villains shows a grade-school understanding of what's going on.

GasBandit said:

How many civilians died in bombing raids in any given major war of the last hundred years? It's a sad fact of war that innocents die in it. Israel does what it has to do to ensure its security and continued survival. How many thousands of rocket launches should they have to put up with before they act? The villains here are Hamas, for putting materiel under bassinets, and the UN is, as usual, filled with hypocrites and malefactors.

Click to expand...

But as I asked on the last page, how much damage have they actually done to Hamas in this latest push?

Espy said:

Would they? I'm not so sure. Honestly I think a lot of people, especially far right evangelical christians would find some easy ways to justify it. And politicians are far to scared to lose the political capital that comes with supporting Israel. Besides, it wouldn't an "ethnic cleansing" it would "defending themselves".

Click to expand...

For some, the Crusades never ended.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

Calling either side Heroes and Villains shows a grade-school understanding of what's going on.

Click to expand...

I would disagree with this. Hamas is the one that has kept things going on a war footing when several times Palestine and Israel have tried to keep the peace. Hamas is the one that continually breaks cease fires or refuses them altogether. They are also the ones who use the human shields, which then makes it problematic for Israel to defend itself when such is called for. My whole issue is the level of proportionality and how innocents are being specifically targeted by Israel, even though they know damned well Hamas is not present.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

Calling either side Heroes and Villains shows a grade-school understanding of what's going on.

Click to expand...

I didn't call Israel heroes, just said they're doing what they have to. However, Hamas is definitely villainous.

Dave said:

I agree that Hamas is the villain. But the places that are being shelled are NOT Hamas.

Click to expand...

The IDF said rockets got launched, and they shot back in the direction of the rocket launch. The thing about artillery shells is, they blow up big and aren't precision-guided.

stienman said:

Didn't you at one point suggest someone's teeth would make a good addition to your collection?

Click to expand...

Pfft, that's not a threat, that's an award.

Zero Esc said:

But as I asked on the last page, how much damage have they actually done to Hamas in this latest push?

Click to expand...

That will be difficult to quantify for some time even after the shooting stops and the rubble is cleared.

I think it's super clear Hamas is bad, bad, bad. On many levels. These are guys who WANT Israel to kill women and children for the press. The problem is Israel is killing women and children and going, "Meh". So they aren't exactly the shiny heroes here either.

GasBandit said:

The thing about artillery shells is, they blow up big and aren't precision-guided.

Click to expand...

Man. I love ya, Gas, but you have NO IDEA how accurate military grade hardware is these days. They could be using laser-guided missiles that can blow up a barrel from 100 miles away. But instead Israel decided to use large, indiscriminate ordinance? If that is true, then that's even more evil and wrong.

Dave said:

Man. I love ya, Gas, but you have NO IDEA how accurate military grade hardware is these days. They could be using laser-guided missiles that can blow up a barrel from 100 miles away. But instead Israel decided to use large, indiscriminate ordinance? If that is true, then that's even more evil and wrong.

Click to expand...

Patriot missiles cost $2 million each. Hamas' rockets cost a few thousand, tops. One of the methods Hamas uses against Israel is economic warfare in so far as trying to attack them as cheaply as possible while trying to force them to defend themselves or retaliate as expensively as possible. The hardware exists that you describe, certainly. But mandating it must be used every time for every problem is unrealistic.

I don't think Israel's motives are purely defensive. I think there is an element of vengeance here. I also think their level of frustration with the situation has gotten to the point that the "meh" attitude prevails; they're tired of this conflict to the point that they don't care anymore who goes down at the end of it, they just want it over with at any cost. I mean, I get it, they're human, they're angry.

But again, do they see that as the end goal here? Do they think their present actions will bring an end to this or exacerbate it? Will this really solve any of Israel's problems?

I feel like if this was the U.S. in Israel's position, opinions would shift differently, mainly because of the "say one thing, do another". Israel isn't expressing a regret for the loss of life while killing people, whereas the U.S. would totally be doing that to try appearing more sympathetic as the shellings continued. And it's not like the U.S. wouldn't do this if the cartels really took over Mexico and began threatening our borders with levels of violence that would make Hamas look sweet.

My wife hasn't followed any of this for years and asked me to break it down simply for her. I told her there was no way to do that. It just isn't simple.

stienman said:

Actually we changed our ground strategy in Iraq due to this early on in the most recent war.

And it cost us many, many more American lives than it would have if we simply went to town like the Israeli's are doing.

Click to expand...

And now Iraq wants us to do air strikes.
Wooooooo ...[DOUBLEPOST=1406819185,1406819125][/DOUBLEPOST]

stienman said:

It would be similar to Michigan attacking Ontario, and Ontario engaging in a ground war with Michigan, in terms of population.

Click to expand...

That totally puts everything into perfect perspective; I can absolutely visualize those two cities in that respective manner.

Zero Esc said:

I feel like if this was the U.S. in Israel's position, opinions would shift differently, mainly because of the "say one thing, do another". Israel isn't expressing a regret for the loss of life while killing people, whereas the U.S. would totally be doing that to try appearing more sympathetic as the shellings continued. And it's not like the U.S. wouldn't do this if the cartels really took over Mexico and began threatening our borders with levels of violence that would make Hamas look sweet.

Click to expand...

You beat me to the example.

Seriously ask the question: what if the Cartels took control of Northern Mexico, and the central government could do NOTHING to stop them, and even maybe brought them into their government to "control" them a bit? And then they started lobbing mortars over the border. Or missiles that could hit all of Los Angelas. And any other cities with 200-ish miles of the border. What would your government's response to this be? What would your PEOPLE demand the response to this be? And throw in the idea that Mexicans might see most of California, New Mexico, Arizona, and Texas as "theirs" and "stolen" by Americans in the Mexican-American war, and want a "right of return" even for descendants of refugees? And remember, they're firing the missiles from Churches, Schools, and Hospitals, almost-exclusively, so if you want to destroy the missiles, you MUST kill innocents too.

Way to parallel? Too much? TOO BAD! That's a disturbingly-close parallel to what is happening in Israel. Except the fighting has actually started.


TLDR: If 200+ miles of the USA-Mexico border was getting rocket attacks constantly, with tunnels & human shields being used, what would you advocate for your government to do?

Considering current cartel tactics, it'd be less missiles at our cities and more of, each morning find another ten families who were raped and then taken apart by chainsaws, or a pile of heads in a town shopping center that used to belong to the town's police force.

Eriol said:

That's a disturbingly-close parallel to what is happening in Israel.

Click to expand...

[citation needed]

Charlie Don't Surf said:

[citation needed]

Click to expand...

No it isn't. You don't need citations for a summary of generally uncontested facts.

GasBandit said:

No it isn't. You don't need citations for a summary of generally uncontested facts.

Click to expand...

it's a fact that his dumb scenario in USA/Mexico is the same thing as the Middle East?

Charlie Don't Surf said:

it's a fact that his dumb scenario in USA/Mexico is the same thing as the Middle East?

Click to expand...

It's an undisputed fact that the much of the Palestinian population considers Israel stolen territory, just like Mexico and the American southwest.
It's an undisputed fact that northern Mexico is almost completely in the grip of criminal organizations, just like Hamas controls Gaza - in fact, they were even elected.
It's an undisputed fact that Los Angeles is within rocket range of the US/Mexico border, just like Gaza and major metropolitan Israeli centers.

As undisputed facts, they don't need citations.

The rest of the post poses a hypothetical situation and asks what the response would be, which cannot be cited as it is hypothetical.

Get it? Kthx.

"NATO bombed 5,000 civilians in Kosovo just because it was insulted; 27,000 Iraqi civilians were bombed during the American invasion because they posed a danger to the US; there is not a country in the world that can talk to us about morality." -Knesset member Yisrael Hasson

http://jpupdates.com/2014/07/29/european-countries-fail-protect-jews-state-israel-will/

stienman said:

I don't understand what you all want Israel to do?

Click to expand...

Stop building settlements in occupied territory.

That's it. That's literally all they have to do to win my vote, and the votes of like half the fucking world. Why can't they do this?

Also, for the US/mexico example, we've already had that situation over here in two situations:

1) Pancho Villa

2) Pablo Escobar (ok this wasn't in Mexico but it was cartel.)

I have always been a strong fan of the second method. Assassinations have historically been an amazing way of dealing with these kinds of groups, going all the way back tot he days of the Romans. Israel could actually learn a lot from the Romans. In the beginning they would assassinate leaders of uprisings in places like Gaul etc. and make sure not to screw the population over too much. In their later years they began doing more "revenge" oriented punitive campaigns that led to deep resentment and unrest in the population that eventually made them entirely unmanageable.

I'm super pro-assassination.[DOUBLEPOST=1406829252,1406829222][/DOUBLEPOST]

stienman said:

Even if you could define "Occupied territory" to everyone's satisfaction, this wouldn't stop Hamas sending rockets into Israel.

Click to expand...

It would remove a vast amount of the support for them though.

Rule 1: In war, people die.
Rule 2: There's not a whole hell of a lot you can do about rule 1.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/li...el-palestinians-ceasefire-begins-live-updates

from a reporter in Gaza:

Fishermen in Gaza City set out to sea for the first time since the war began as inhabitants tentatively left their homes, some for the first time for days. Queues formed for taxis. Most of those immediately on the streets were hoping to return to homes they had not seen for weeks, or salvage belongings. Grocery shops rapidly opened, selling basic foodstuffs.
While most seemed optimistic and pleased that the ceasfire had been declared others remained defiant. Rocket fire from Hamas also continued until the ceasefire came into effect.
Samira Attar, 27, a housewife, sitting in a donkey cart with her husband and five children and three mattresses, said she was heading back to her house in Atattraa, in the north of the strip.
“I am going back to my house for the first time for 17 days. I hope this ceasefire will hold for the whole 72 hours and longer, God willing. We don’t need more bloodshed, or more devastation. I’d like to see Israel to be defeated and broken but the circumstances were very difficult,” Attar said.
Harth Nassr, 34, a restaurant worker from Beit Hanoun, a heavily-hit village in the north east of the Gaza Strip, said he too was optimistic. “I think it will hold this time. Everybody is tired of this war,” he said.
Nassr’s home was destroyed after he evacuated following a warning from Israeli forces to leave the area.
“I left my house ten days ago. I went there only once in the last ten days and found the whole building, all three storeys, destroyed. I’m going back today to see if I can get any of my belongings.”
However, others doubted that the war, in which 59 Israelis and more than 1,440 Palestinians, largely civilians, have died, was over.
Isham Abu Ramadan, 42, said he was not optimistic: “We have long experience of Israel. They break the ceasefire all the time. They want to hit us more. They want more massacres.
“Israel doesn’t want to end the war as well as they don’t want a peace settlement. I don’t want a ceasefire. I want the resistance to fire until the end when Israel is defeated and asks for a truce,” Ramadan, a construction worker who said his house was destroyed in an air strike earlier this month, told the Guardian.

Click to expand...

from Amnesty International:

Reckless targeting is a recurring problem, and the hand-wringing and words of regret no longer have any value. If you are making the same mistakes again and again, you would hope something is being learned,” she said, adding there was no sign of any disciplinary action for IDF mistakes that kill civilians. “There is no pattern of anyone being held to account, and impunity just leads to more reckless behaviour.

Click to expand...

About the only reliable quote in there was the one about the palestinian wanting to see Israel defeated and broken. Palestinians have zero room to talk about breaking cease fires and "not wanting peace, just massacres." That they even think that a military defeat for Israel in this engagement is a possibility ("I don't want a ceasefire, I want the resistance to fire until the end when Israel is defeated and asks for a truce") shows how ignorant they are of the actual situation.

GasBandit said:

About the only reliable quote in there was the one about the palestinian wanting to see Israel defeated and broken. Palestinians have zero room to talk about breaking cease fires and "not wanting peace, just massacres." That they even think that a military defeat for Israel in this engagement is a possibility ("I don't want a ceasefire, I want the resistance to fire until the end when Israel is defeated and asks for a truce") shows how ignorant they are of the actual situation.

Click to expand...

It's almost like people are driven to extremes when their kids are blown apart and their homes are destroyed. Israel's actions are causing far more misery and breeding far more extremists than anything Hamas has accomplished.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

It's almost like people are driven to extremes when their kids are blown apart and their homes are destroyed. Israel's actions are causing far more misery and breeding far more extremists than anything Hamas has accomplished.

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Now THAT is a [citation needed].

Well, this could get a whole lot worse...

http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/IDF-soldier-feared-kidnapped-369720

blotsfan said:

Well, this could get a whole lot worse...

http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/IDF-soldier-feared-kidnapped-369720

Click to expand...

Yeah if thats real shits gonna get super crazy.

Hamas violates yet another cease fire. You can't deal with these subcreatures. Time to plow Gaza under and push everything into the Mediterranean. If the other countries of the world are so bent out of shape about the "humanitarian crisis" then let them send ships to take in refugees within their own borders. It's time to stop pretending Palestine exists. It may be the wrong testament for Israelis, but I'm sure they can appreciate Matthew 24:2 about now.

Most Palestinians are pretty pissed at Hamas. Razing Gaza isn't the answer. It's punishing the family because your crazy uncle starts shit with a bigger guy.

Dave said:

Most Palestinians are pretty pissed at Hamas. Razing Gaza isn't the answer. It's punishing the family because your crazy uncle starts shit with a bigger guy.

Click to expand...

Sorry, can you repeat that? It got drowned out by the sound of smiling palestinians dancing in the streets when they heard about the 9-11 attacks.

It's pathetic how much everyone loves to demonize and make the Palestinians "subhuman" "monsters" "animals" so it's easier to not have to face the massive human body count Israel is racking up.[DOUBLEPOST=1406917363,1406917327][/DOUBLEPOST]

GasBandit said:

Hamas violates yet another cease fire. You can't deal with these subcreatures. Time to plow Gaza under and push everything into the Mediterranean. If the other countries of the world are so bent out of shape about the "humanitarian crisis" then let them send ships to take in refugees within their own borders. It's time to stop pretending Palestine exists. It may be the wrong testament for Israelis, but I'm sure they can appreciate Matthew 24:2 about now.

Click to expand...

alternate post: who gave Ann Coulter an account?

GasBandit said:

Sorry, can you repeat that? It got drowned out by the sound of smiling palestinians dancing in the streets when they heard about the 9-11 attacks.

Click to expand...

Dude, that was 13 years ago. You think that is the same as not liking Hamas for not letting cease-fires take effect? What the hell?

Charlie Don't Surf said:

It's pathetic how much everyone loves to demonize and make the Palestinians "subhuman" "monsters" "animals" so it's easier to not have to face the massive human body count Israel is racking up.

Click to expand...

What do you mean "have to face the body count?" We've all read the statistics, Israel's killed 1500 palestinians as of today. As has been stated time and again, people die in war. Blame those who use the innocent as shields.

alternate post: who gave Ann Coulter an account?

Click to expand...

Alternate post: STFU Charlie.

Dave said:

Dude, that was 13 years ago. You think that is the same as not liking Hamas for not letting cease-fires take effect? What the hell?

Click to expand...

It predates Hamas control. It shows that the Palestinians are not just some hapless people who just want to live in peace with their israeli neighbors - as the video (and the quotes in charlie's earlier post) shows, these are people who will never accept that Israel exists, and wish nothing but death and destruction upon Israel and America.


"Dude that was 13 years ago."

You've forgotten, Dave.

I wonder how many Palestinians would be willing to move to another Arab country that would take them. Id bet it would be a significant amount.

blotsfan said:

I wonder how many Palestinians would be willing to move to another Arab country that would take them. Id bet it would be a significant amount.

Click to expand...

I bet so too, if only they'd accept them. However, all the neighboring Arab countries have refused to take in any palestinian refugees because that would be the first step in accepting/normalizing Israel's legitimate existence.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

It's pathetic how much everyone loves to demonize and make the Palestinians "subhuman" "monsters" "animals" so it's easier to not have to face the massive human body count Israel is racking up.

Click to expand...

Yeah guys, Charlie has a point, the only group of people that we need to dehumanize in this thread are Israelis. So lets stay on topic please? Thanks.

Covar said:

Yeah guys, Charlie has a point, the only group of people that we need to dehumanize in this thread are Israelis. So lets stay on topic please? Thanks.

Click to expand...

Quite right, I apologize for getting off topic. It must have been my neverending lust for dead women and children.

Apparently the violation of the cease fire is not entirely cut and dry. Here's the story as I understand it. After cease fire begins Israel starts attacking guys in tunnels. Technically this is within the legal parameters of the cease fire. During this firefight an Israeli soldier was captured. In response Israel just shelled Rafah and killed 50+ Palestinians.

Jesus Fucking Christ, this thread.

GasBandit said:

It must have been my neverending lust for dead women and children.

Click to expand...

I've been meaning to say something to you about that. You need help, GB. We're going to have to stage an intervention.

Tress said:

I've been meaning to say something to you about that. You need help, GB. We're going to have to stage an intervention.

Click to expand...

But they're just so Sexy! And Tasty. In that order.

GasBandit said:

But they're just so Sexy! And Tasty. In that order.

Click to expand...

Yeah, the wording of the thread title threw me off since it just says "lust" and not "bloodlust".

I also love how the Israel soldier is "kidnapped" when he's invading and killing people.

Today's "Holy shit this is not from the Onion!" moment is brought to you by an Israeli Knesset member who says Palestinians should be rounded up and "concentrated" in camps.

Let's step back from that one and bask in the irony.

That is some seriously ferrous irony.

Yeah, The fanatical religious right of Israel is no better than Hamas.


However, not to come to his defense, but that part of the IDs is misleading. Having a blue ID card means your a full citizen of Israel, and Jewish citizens have them as well.
http://www.jpost.com/In-Jerusalem/Features/East-Jerusalems-identity-crisis

Hamas would agree with half of that.

Apparently Gas is the deputy speaker of the Israel ruling party.

http://www.jewishisrael.org/outline-solution-israels-gaza-problem-moshe-feiglin/

Here's a first hand account of Israel's never-ending mission to fill the Hamas ranks with loyal followers:

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/ori...war-hospitals-filled-bodies-palestinians.html

If it is Hamas that you hate, let me tell you that the people you are killing have nothing to do with Hamas. They are women, children, men and senior citizens whose only concern was for the war to end, so they can return to their lives and daily routines. But let me assure you that you have now created thousands — no, millions — of Hamas loyalists, for we all become Hamas if Hamas, to you, is women, children and innocent families. If Hamas, in your eyes, is ordinary civilians and families, then I am Hamas, they are Hamas and we are all Hamas.
...
Bodies lay everywhere, and it was if everything in life had been to prepare us for this moment. Suddenly, the dead left their personal lives behind: their cell phones, homes, clothes, perfumes and daily chores. Most importantly, they left the fear of war behind.
Distances in the small Gaza Strip have grown larger, distances and time expanding as a result of the fear and death that shrank the life expectancy of the populace. We were unable to join the family for the funerals. My uncle, Ahmad al-Ghoul, later told me over the phone, “Because of the inherent danger, our goodbyes to them lasted mere seconds

Click to expand...

When you drain the swamp, you annoy the mosquitos.

By Charlie logic, Hiroshima and Nagasaki should have "filled Hirohito's ranks" that would have dragged out WW2 even longer.

GasBandit said:

By Charlie logic, Hiroshima and Nagasaki should have "filled Hirohito's ranks" that would have dragged out WW2 even longer.

Click to expand...

If there's one thing we've all demonstrated on this forum, it's that we each have a pretty firm grasp on exactly how the world works.
We just all live in different worlds, that's all.

--Patrick

GasBandit said:

When you drain the swamp, you annoy the mosquitos.

Click to expand...

I dunno why I'm stooping to argue with someone comparing human life to mosquitos

Charlie Don't Surf said:

I dunno why I'm stooping to argue with someone comparing human life to mosquitos

Click to expand...

Because, hopefully, you understand metaphors, like the rest of us.

And for all your vaunted concern about "human life," you're pretty selective about which human lives you roll out the crocodile tears for.

Do the Palestinians get blame for building Israeli enemies by blowing civilians up for years?

blotsfan said:

Do the Palestinians get blame for building Israeli enemies by blowing civilians up for years?

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It probably leads to influencing people to join the IDF, but I don't think Israelis shoot homemade rockets at Gaza during the rare periods the IDF isn't blowing up homes already.

Also, "homemade rockets" is a misnomer. Try. With instructions from the internet. You'll probably fail, and most likely blow yourself up.

They're being shipped in via tunnels and other smuggling methods from Syria and Iran. So thinking they're "homemade" is... quite fantastic a belief. If I'm wrong, OK, but... link?

I won't even blame media for this one. Where in the hell did you get the idea that they were manufacturing the rockets there???

"homemade" might just refer to the warhead.

--Patrick

They are simple rockets, but just about the only industry in Gaza is making Kaytusha or Grad rockets. It is like buying home made cookies at Walmart.

Eriol said:

Also, "homemade rockets" is a misnomer. Try. With instructions from the internet. You'll probably fail, and most likely blow yourself up.

They're being shipped in via tunnels and other smuggling methods from Syria and Iran. So thinking they're "homemade" is... quite fantastic a belief. If I'm wrong, OK, but... link?

I won't even blame media for this one. Where in the hell did you get the idea that they were manufacturing the rockets there???

Click to expand...

It's also become apparent in the past few weeks that they are trying to buy some from North Korea.

AshburnerX said:

It's also become apparent in the past few weeks that they are trying to buy some from North Korea.

Click to expand...

I always enjoy an opportunity to pull out this gif again.

Mea culpa. Homemade was the wrong word / completely inaccurate. It still stands that Israel has FAR more firepower, and by measure of degrees, it's like a bottle rocket versus a .45

Also I am not on Hamas' side, don't get me wrong. The people shooting rockets into Israel are fucking horrible people. The only reason I "go after" Israel is that they're much better at killing people and I am anti-killing people. Also, several people (in this thread included) see Israel as "the good guys", which I think is patently false.

I keep writing shit for this thread. Then I delete it. It's therapeutic.

Krisken said:

I keep writing shit for this thread. Then I delete it. It's therapeutic.

Click to expand...

And wise, I'm sure.

--Patrick

Charlie Don't Surf said:

Mea culpa. Homemade was the wrong word / completely inaccurate. It still stands that Israel has FAR more firepower, and by measure of degrees, it's like a bottle rocket versus a .45

Also I am not on Hamas' side, don't get me wrong. The people shooting rockets into Israel are fucking horrible people. The only reason I "go after" Israel is that they're much better at killing people and I am anti-killing people. Also, several people (in this thread included) see Israel as "the good guys", which I think is patently false.

Click to expand...

I don't think anyone here thinks that Israel is perfect. Just that given the choices between the two, Israel is the generally more reasonable side.

PatrThom said:

And wise, I'm sure.

--Patrick

Click to expand...

It's accidentally wise. I just don't want to get into explaining why the whole thing is wrong. Unfortunately, I always start writing and then think "Crap, do I really want to jump into this?" The sad part is I keep doing it.

Krisken said:

It's accidentally wise. I just don't want to get into explaining why the whole thing is wrong. Unfortunately, I always start writing and then think "Crap, do I really want to jump into this?" The sad part is I keep doing it.

Click to expand...

Now you know how I feel in about 90% of the posts on this forum.

Krisken said:

It's accidentally wise. I just don't want to get into explaining why the whole thing is wrong. Unfortunately, I always start writing and then think "Crap, do I really want to jump into this?" The sad part is I keep doing it.

Click to expand...

I shoulda known better. I jumped into a Charlie trap with both feet, and now somehow I'M the bad guy, instead of the one that put the needle in a possibly innocent man's arm.

DarkAudit said:

I shoulda known better. I jumped into a Charlie trap with both feet, and now somehow I'M the bad guy, instead of the one that put the needle in a possibly innocent man's arm.

Click to expand...

Review your behavior, watch for the signs, be ready for next time.

--Patrick

This needs to happen more.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/183741

A bunch of angry Palestinians attacked a Hamas dude.

Update: this will keep happening as long as it is insanely profitable

http://www.haaretz.com/mobile/1.609919?v=8F13CF49D4475B86128120D26FF8D121

“The operation has a potential to promote defense exports, mainly systems that have proven themselves,” says Maj. Gen. (res.) Danny Yatom, who now deals in defense equipment and other business. “The industry will also benefits as the [Israeli] defense establishment rebuilds inventories. Also, in this war we saw that the army has new needs, especially in regards to tunnels. In my opinion, there will now be an accelerated process of development for that. There’s a financial incentive both for the developers and the manufacturers.”

Yatom contends that the course of Operation Protective Edge shows that future weapons systems must be designed to combat guerrilla organizations rather than conventional armies. One example of the likely change is increased demand for thermal-imaging night-vision equipment, rather than the Starlight technology, based on available light, that is currently more common in the IDF. “Thermal-imaging night-vision equipment is not affected by glow of bombs and by urban lighting, so it makes identification easier,” he explains.
...
He says that despite the criticism being heard about the size of the defense budget, Israel has no choice but to increase the army’s R&D spending. That should be done by channeling profits from the government defense industries into the IDF’s R&D units, he says, rather than handing them over to the Finance Ministry, which funnels this money into the general state budget.

Click to expand...

No choice but to increase! Of course!

Photo: Tens of thousands of Palestinians march at the funeral of 3 senior Hamas commanders killed in an Israeli air strike in the Gaza strip on Thursday; they were the highest-ranking casualties Hamas has announced since Israel started its offensive 6 weeks ago - @Reuters, @LazSim

But I thought Hamas had no popular support in Gaza?


Just a reminder there is no political solution to the Israel/Palestine problem.

If the arabs all laid down their weapons, there would be peace.
If the Israelis all laid down there weapons, there would be a second holocaust.

GasBandit said:

If the arabs all laid down their weapons, there would be peace.
If the Israelis all laid down there weapons, there would be a second holocaust.

Click to expand...

Repeating this over and over does not make it true.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

Repeating this over and over does not make it true.

Click to expand...

Putting aside the fact that I've only said it once, repeating something over and over doesn't make it false, either. The sky is blue. The sky is blue. The sky is blue. The sky is blue. Do you doubt me yet?

I'm not eager to go through 200 posts, but if not you, I'm fairly certain it's been said already the line "Palestinians will kill all Israelis if the air strikes stop"

Charlie Don't Surf said:

I'm not eager to go through 200 posts, but if not you, I'm fairly certain it's been said already the line "Palestinians will kill all Israelis if the air strikes stop"

Click to expand...

That's glossing over the point. What the phrase I said means is that the Israelis were willing to coexist, whereas the palestinians (and most of the Arab world for that matter) is very, very not.

You don't think that maybe it's possible if-- the sanctions are lifted, the air strikes stopped, and their lives not resembling a living hell every single day-- that possibly some people might not feel like blowing themselves up in a marketplace is such a good idea? Maybe membership in Hamas might just go down?

Like, you treat them like actual human beings and not animals, and they maybe won't keep responding to violence with violence.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

You don't think that maybe it's possible if-- the sanctions are lifted, the air strikes stopped, and their lives not resembling a living hell every single day-- that possibly some people might not feel like blowing themselves up in a marketplace is such a good idea? Maybe membership in Hamas might just go down?

Like, you treat them like actual human beings and not animals, and they maybe won't keep responding to violence with violence.

Click to expand...

Tell Egypt to open the border with them and have trade, etc. See how that goes.


Hint: they've tried it. Doesn't end well there either.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

You don't think that maybe it's possible if-- the sanctions are lifted, the air strikes stopped, and their lives not resembling a living hell every single day-- that possibly some people might not feel like blowing themselves up in a marketplace is such a good idea? Maybe membership in Hamas might just go down?

Like, you treat them like actual human beings and not animals, and they maybe won't keep responding to violence with violence.

Click to expand...

As HAS been stated multiple times, there have been treaties on the table ready for them to sign that would have given them everything they wanted, EXCEPT they would have to acknowledge that Israel had a legitimate right to exist and not be attacked... and they walked away from the table without so much as a counteroffer.

Palestine's treating the elimination of Israel as non-negotiable means there is no political solution that will work.

I didn't say that would be a perfect and immediate solution. It would take time (maybe longer than 9 years, and I know the 2005 thing didn't last nearly that long) to let things improve and let the public opinion swing away from Hamas. And I think that's a better situation than it is currently.

How many times does an idea have to fail before it is a bad idea?

GasBandit said:

How many times does an idea have to fail before it is a bad idea?

Click to expand...

Remind me how well killing everyone's relatives is working to stop people from becoming Hamas loyalists.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

Remind me how well killing everyone's relatives is working to stop people from becoming Hamas loyalists.

Click to expand...

Their loyalties are irrelevant if their ability to cause harm is effectively eliminated.

stienman said:

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/2...gazan-journalist-says-most-gazans-hate-hamas/

So, apparently, Gazans are becoming fed up with Hamas.

It turns out that when people support or join Hamas that it's out of fear of Hamas, not anger at Israel:

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/...n-After-Losing-Its-Current-War-Against-Israel

So no, killing relatives isn't pushing people into Hamas. Hamas has the weapons, and kills Palestinians who don't support it.

But I expect this is falling on deaf ears.

Click to expand...

Not that I don't believe you, but then how do "tens of thousands" show up to march in the funeral procession of 3 slain hamas leaders? Do they perhaps fear that if they don't show up they would be targeted?

Charlie Don't Surf said:

Remind me how well killing everyone's relatives is working to stop people from becoming Hamas loyalists.

Click to expand...

Well duh, if they're dead they can't be loyalist!

Israel moving into 1000 acres of West Bank

That's a lot, yes?

Uhh... you might want to check that link.

LOL! Oh christ, I'm laughing so hard I'm hoping not to wake my wife.[DOUBLEPOST=1409798975,1409798936][/DOUBLEPOST]

stienman said:

Israel is currently over 8,000 square miles. 1,000 acres is under 2 square miles. So it's an expansion of 0.025%

West Bank is only 2,000 sq miles, so it's a loss of 0.1% of their territory.

Regardless of the size of the grab I wish they'd stop expanding.

Click to expand...

Dude, click the link.

What the hell is a "bigender adept" and why am I oddly aroused right now?

bhamv3 said:

What the hell is a "bigender adept" and why am I oddly aroused right now?

Click to expand...

Because you're always oddly aroused.

Ravenpoe said:

Because you're always oddly aroused.

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I expect nothing less of a Halforumite.

I'm laughing so hard.

That wasn't a troll; I had posted a screenshot from Azure Striker Gunvolt on Tumblr and apparently when I thought I'd copied the link to the article ... well, I didn't.

Actual Huffington Post link, I fucking hope.

That's why I was laughing, sir. It was wonderful.

Zero Esc said:

Israel moving into 1000 acres of West Bank

That's a lot, yes?

Click to expand...

Not quite 2 square miles.

What's really telling isn't just the timing of this decision (right in the middle of a cease-fire), but who its targeting. This is the West Bank, not the Gaza Strip. The west bank is generally more stable and more legitimate, and has far less association with Hamas. This is an extremely provocative move. Its either punishing Abass for not standing against Hamas, or its provoking Abass to do something stupid. I guess really its both.

Why are they doing this? I mean, from what I can tell this settlement has been in a sort of existential limbo for a while now. There are already houses there, and they've been fighting (and losing) in courts for their legitimacy for years. Approving it now is a pretty bold, and arrogant move. It may only be 1k acres (which may not seem like a lot but is worth probably 10 mil undeveloped at least and can easily hold 5k houses), but its basically a slap in the face to the US and others. No more a crime than what Hamas does, not even near as bad. But worse because it comes from a real government.

Israel seems to make two points regularly, but fail to synthesize them to the obvious conclusion. The first is that Hamas is not a legitimate government, that its basically a terrorist organization. The second is that Hamas's crimes against the Israelis are worse than the Israeli retaliatory/defensive actions. These are both, I think, pretty fair statements. The problem is that Israel uses the second point to justify its actions, feeling that as long as their crimes are not as severe as Hamas's then they are in the right. But that's the problem. This line of thinking only works if they assume Hamas, like Israel, is a legitimate government and should be held to the same standards. Hamas is a terrorist organization. There have no standards, and they act like it. Israel HAS to hold itself to higher standards.[DOUBLEPOST=1409844306,1409843838][/DOUBLEPOST]http://www.theonion.com/articles/palestinians-starting-to-have-mixed-feelings-about,36497/