Man or Woman?

[Jay]

This has been discussed everywhere today...


http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/52489,new ... -athletics

Teenager, who has lived her whole life as a woman, must undergo weeks of tests to establish if she has male chromosomes.

South African middle-distance runner Caster Semenya is at the centre of a controversy over her gender after winning gold in the women's 800m at the athletics World Championships. Such is the furore off the track that instead of celebrating her victory the 18-year-old, who won the race in a new personal best of 1:55.45, was forced to duck out of the limelight. The teenager only managed half-a-lap of honour before being whisked away from the stadium, avoiding the media and the winner's press conference.

She will be back in the stadium today to collect her gold medal, and her appearance alone could overshadow many of the other events taking place.

Although Semenya has lived her whole life as a female her strength and appearance have raised fears that she may have been born with a rare abnormality, where she has grown up with the genitalia of a woman but has the chromosomes of a male.

 

If there's been no gender reassignment surgery and she has a vagina then give her the gold.

 

[Jay]

To be honest, I look more of a woman than Caster.

 

[Shakey]

If there's been no gender reassignment surgery and she has a vagina then give her the gold.

Exactly. It seems no different than allowing people with abnormally large hearts or lungs to compete.

 

[Ravenpoe]

If she identifies as, and lives her life as, then she is a woman.

As to whether she has XX or XY chromosomes, that's another matter altogether.

 

[Espy]

If she identifies as, and lives her life as, then she is a woman.

As to whether she has XX or XY chromosomes, that's another matter altogether.

Are you saying that if she is actually a male but lives as a female she should be allowed to compete with women in these races? I think her fellow runners may disagree with that...

 

[Shegokigo]

Well Phelps is half fish, but I don't hear anyone bitch about that.... not on the American side that is....

 

[Ravenpoe]

If she identifies as, and lives her life as, then she is a woman.

As to whether she has XX or XY chromosomes, that's another matter altogether.

Are you saying that if she is actually a male but lives as a female she should be allowed to compete with women in these races? I think her fellow runners may disagree with that...

I didn't say that at all. I was replying to the question of whether one believes her to be a man or a woman.

 

[Eriol]

The whole reason for men's and woman's sports being divided is that there is a physical difference between the two genders (at the top end, and on average). Thus if you're dividing it such, then yes, the genetics contributing DO affect, and have an effect on who should be allowed to compete in each category.

That being said, there are sports where such a division makes no sense. Curling for example.

 

[Espy]

If she identifies as, and lives her life as, then she is a woman.

As to whether she has XX or XY chromosomes, that's another matter altogether.

Are you saying that if she is actually a male but lives as a female she should be allowed to compete with women in these races? I think her fellow runners may disagree with that...

I didn't say that at all. I was replying to the question of whether one believes her to be a man or a woman.

I know you didn't say that, hence my asking you what you thought based upon your comments. If you don't want to say thats fine, I was just asking what you thought since those definitions get so confusing when real world scenarios have to be dealt with. It wasn't meant to put you on the defensive, I was just really interested in what you thought.

 

[ElJuski]

I am trying really damn hard to see whether I even remotely care about what apparently is a whole lot of hubbub.


...
Hrrrmrmmmrmrmmmmmmnnnnnmmnnnnnnnnnnghh

 

[Ravenpoe]

If she identifies as, and lives her life as, then she is a woman.

As to whether she has XX or XY chromosomes, that's another matter altogether.

Are you saying that if she is actually a male but lives as a female she should be allowed to compete with women in these races? I think her fellow runners may disagree with that...

I didn't say that at all. I was replying to the question of whether one believes her to be a man or a woman.

I know you didn't say that, hence my asking you what you thought based upon your comments. If you don't want to say thats fine, I was just asking what you thought since those definitions get so confusing when real world scenarios have to be dealt with. It wasn't meant to put you on the defensive, I was just really interested in what you thought.

Don't worry, I'm not defensive. You'll know when that happens, because I'll go into 'fuck you' mode

I didn't comment on whether she should be allowed to compete because I honestly don't have much of an opinion there. That's for the olympic committy to decide. If they have a rule that defines that only people with XX chromosomes can compete in the women's games, then that's the rule, and if the woman in question gets disqualified because of that, then that's unfortunate for her.

 

[Jay]

To me, it's all a question of genetics... how fair is it to the other female runners if someone has the obviously superior genetics of a man and wins the race without any effort?

:smug:

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

this thread is such a lame troll

 

[Shegokigo]

To me, it's all a question of genetics... how fair is it to the other female runners if someone has the obviously superior genetics of a man and wins the race without any effort?

:smug:

I knew it'd be a matter of seconds before Charlie would chime in. Well done Jay.

 

[Jay]

Mission Accomplished.

 

[doomdragon6]

Thing is, genetics plays a part in... you know.. EVERYTHING. A woman who is slightly stronger than this one might have slightly manlier chromosomes. So if you're born a woman with a man's chromosomes-- fuck it! You're the best for that reason!

I saw a Guniess World Records thing recently about a man with the stretchiest skin. It's because he has a disorder that fails to attach his skin properly or something, so he can pull it out a good number of inches.

Genetics OBVIOUSLY makes a fucking difference here. What about a "Stetchiest Skin Without This Disorder" award? That kind of thing.

 

[Chibibar]

so......... physically she is a woman and genetically she has male genetics?

How is that possible? wouldn't male genetics = male parts? I have heard about rare instance where someone is born with both, but usually that is fix to be one gender or another (not sure if it is true just hear/read stories) could someone educate us in genetics.

 

[GeneralOrder24]

It's a dude. Look, he's even got a declaration to "semen ya" on his shirt.

 

[sixpackshaker]

This has happened at least twice before. But those times the cheaters where doing the "tuck rule".

It would be cool for an aging male athlete to get gender reassignment, then go compete in women's events.

 

[GasBandit]

I remember reading in newsweek 10 or 15 years ago about the plight of those who had been born with BOTH a penis and a vagina at birth, and the very first thing the doctor did when they were born was take a quick swipe with the scalpel and cheerfully call out "It's a girl!" Often the parents were not even notified, much less asked what action they wanted taken. My thought was this person could be one such a person, who may have Y chromosomes yet be "physically female" because they were given an involuntary "sex correction" procedure at birth.

 

[sixpackshaker]

I remember reading in newsweek 10 or 15 years ago about the plight of those who had been born with BOTH a penis and a vagina at birth, and the very first thing the doctor did when they were born was take a quick swipe with the scalpel and cheerfully call out "It's a girl!" Often the parents were not even notified, much less asked what action they wanted taken. My thought was this person could be one such a person, who may have Y chromosomes yet be "physically female" because they were given an involuntary "sex correction" procedure at birth.

There was even an episode of House that dealt with that....

 

this thread is such a lame troll

Sorry, Charlie, but this is international sports news.


-heh- Sorry, Charlie.

 

[Rob King]

I always see gender as coming down to chromosomes, not what parts you have, or how you identify.

 

I always see gender as coming down to chromosomes, not what parts you have, or how you identify.

That's "sex" you're talking about. "Gender" has a whole other meaning in studies of culture and sociology, and very much has to do with identity.

 

[klew]

so......... physically she is a woman and genetically she has male genetics?

How is that possible? wouldn't male genetics = male parts? I have heard about rare instance where someone is born with both, but usually that is fix to be one gender or another (not sure if it is true just hear/read stories) could someone educate us in genetics.

Read up on Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (possibly NSFW images)

More here with the very bottom paragraphs discussing athletics

their androgen resistance, whether complete or partial, means that unlike other women they are naturally resistant to the strength-promoting qualities of testosterone

 

[Calleja]

If there's been no gender reassignment surgery and she has a vagina then give her the gold.

Exactly. It seems no different than allowing people with abnormally large hearts or lungs to compete.

No, it IS different, there are no categories for people with large hearts or lungs, there is, however, a category for those with the genetics of a human male.

 

[ElJuski]

Let's talk about sex baby let's talk about you and me

 

[Rob King]

I always see gender as coming down to chromosomes, not what parts you have, or how you identify.

That's "sex" you're talking about. "Gender" has a whole other meaning in studies of culture and sociology, and very much has to do with identity.

Oh. Right.

But now ... thinking about that, then sex is binary, and gender is ... far more complicated. If gender is tied to sociology and identity, I feel uncomfortable thinking about it in terms of male or female. We're really looking at an entire spectrum of possibilities. Or more than a spectrum, really, because a spectrum sounds far too one-dimensional.

With regards to the OP, though, I feel that whatever the results come back as with regards to the sex of the athlete is how they should be categorized. I don't particularly care to see this sort of thing birth a Trans-gender/Gender-confused category at the next Olympics.

 

[Steve]

Measure her manhood. If it's less than 7 inches long it's a woman. I'm all man.

 

[crono1224]

Thing is, genetics plays a part in... you know.. EVERYTHING. A woman who is slightly stronger than this one might have slightly manlier chromosomes. So if you're born a woman with a man's chromosomes-- fuck it! You're the best for that reason!

I saw a Guniess World Records thing recently about a man with the stretchiest skin. It's because he has a disorder that fails to attach his skin properly or something, so he can pull it out a good number of inches.

Genetics OBVIOUSLY makes a fucking difference here. What about a "Stetchiest Skin Without This Disorder" award? That kind of thing.

Worlds tallest man without that one growing thing. The problems probably are more or less not everything is so easily cut and dry.

I just think of the simpsons quote about barts evil twin "Too crazy for boys town, too much of a boy for crazy town", except it works for being part boy/girl or what ever.

 

[Andromache]

If she's intersex, that may make things a bit muddled policies-wise.

personally I don't care what gender/sex she is. I'd tap that ass.

 

[crono1224]

Guh, I'm not exactly hugely attractive, but It certainly does not appeal to me.

 

[Andromache]

Guh, I'm not exactly hugely attractive, but It certainly does not appeal to me.

I find attraction more in talent than looks. Though if I were going by looks, Sera Realm is tied with Shego for hottest women ever. (I've had the pleasure of seeing Shego's real unblocked face. She's sexxxy)

 

[Bubble181]

When'd you get back? Huzzah!

That said, I'll wait for the doctors to decide the sex; genderwise, she seems clearly female.