Man or Woman?

[Chazwozel]

If she identifies as, and lives her life as, then she is a woman.

As to whether she has XX or XY chromosomes, that's another matter altogether.

Are you saying that if she is actually a male but lives as a female she should be allowed to compete with women in these races? I think her fellow runners may disagree with that...

I think I would disagree with that since technically she would be a man if she's got XY chromosomes. They don't exactly let Tranny's run their opposite gender's sporting events.

-- Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:11 pm --

I always see gender as coming down to chromosomes, not what parts you have, or how you identify.

That's "sex" you're talking about. "Gender" has a whole other meaning in studies of culture and sociology, and very much has to do with identity.

Call it sex or whatever. An X and a Y = male, which equals disqualified from female events.

 

[klew]

Male-to-female transsexuals who have undergone gender reassignment have been allowed to participate in some women's athletics, as the testosterone blockers and female hormone treatments may make them "weaker" than genetic women who are in great shape or predisposed to higher-than-average muscle development for a female.

 

[Shakey]

If there's been no gender reassignment surgery and she has a vagina then give her the gold.

Exactly. It seems no different than allowing people with abnormally large hearts or lungs to compete.

No, it IS different, there are no categories for people with large hearts or lungs, there is, however, a category for those with the genetics of a human male.

If you are born female, live your life as a female, and are only different due to a genetic abnormality, I don't see a difference. If she had a sex change, or was hiding her true gender to gain an edge, it would be different.

 

[Shegokigo]

I find attraction more in talent than looks. Though if I were going by looks, Sera Realm is tied with Shego for hottest women ever. (I've had the pleasure of seeing Shego's real unblocked face. She's sexxxy)

You still know how to make me squirm around in my chair. :redface: Though I know what follows this response though.... rly:

 

[@Li3n]

If she identifies as, and lives her life as, then she is a woman.

As to whether she has XX or XY chromosomes, that's another matter altogether.

Actually i read that they don't use chromosomes exclusively anymore, coz you can have both XX and XY...

also: gender != sex.

It did for far longer then it didn't... and it does from a biological standpoint.

 

It did for far longer then it didn't... and it does from a biological standpoint.

Before this gets stupider than it has to, are you nitpicking just for the sake of arguing, or are you honestly ignorant on the subject?

 

[@Li3n]

also: gender != sex.

It did for far longer then it didn't... and it does from a biological standpoint.

I happen to know a whole list of specialists who would disagree vehemently with this statement.

Exactly... the definition you're using is specific to a certain field or fields... most likely that deal with the social aspect of gender.

You should also note that some languages have no word like gender (the closest we have is a word that would be better translated as "type" or "kind") and just use sex with some descriptor before it to denote what they're referring to...

@ZM

It's just how i roll...

 

It's just how i roll...

Thank you for confirming my suspicions.

 

[@Li3n]

Wait, i didn't do that already when you got pissed at me when i said being a spiritual atheist was stupid?! Damn, i got to try harder.

EDIT: Oh, and i just came up with a reason why that was stupid: "Because if you're an atheist you don't believe in spirits (like Buddhists do), so you're just corrupting the word to mean something that for you should just be a chemical reaction in your brain/a natural phenomenon (i don't exactly remember what you argued was spiritual)"... how's that?!

 

I give people the benefit of the doubt sometimes.

 

[@Li3n]

I give people the benefit of the doubt sometimes.

How does it feel to get disappointed so much?!

 

[Ravenpoe]

*snip everything he's ever said*

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/willful_ignorance

 

[@Li3n]

One of the definitions of gender in the dictionary is as a synonym of sex... so sex!=gender = WRONG. Simple logic really...

Also, this could have all been avoided if someone just said: "right, but that's just one definition, and we're using the other one here". Not that anyone ever does... though it's always nice to know i can depend on people to do what i expect them to...

 

[Ravenpoe]

One of the definitions of gender in the dictionary is as a synonym of sex... so sex!=gender = WRONG. Simple logic really...

Also, this could have all been avoided if someone just said: \"right, but that's just one definition, and we're using the other one here\". Not that anyone ever does... though it's always nice to know i can depend on people to do what i expect them to...

*snip everything he's ever said*

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/willful_ignorance

 

I'm not disappointed, @Li3n. I just prefer not to write someone off as a troll until I know for sure. You've helped me with that tonight.

Also, this could have all been avoided if someone just said: "right, but that's just one definition, and we're using the other one here". Not that anyone ever does...

I always see gender as coming down to chromosomes, not what parts you have, or how you identify.

That's "sex" you're talking about. "Gender" has a whole other meaning in studies of culture and sociology, and very much has to do with identity.

 

[@Li3n]

?Oh, you where expecting me to read something you told someone else... that would be too untrollish, wouldn't it...

Also:

It did for far longer then it didn't... and it does from a biological standpoint.

Exactly... the definition you're using is specific to a certain field or fields... most likely that deal with the social aspect of gender.

 

[Bubble181]

Zen...Why are you bothering? Isn't the point of identifying someone as a troll (and not A Troll, who was nice and seems MIA under that username), to ignore them and not feed them? You don't seem to enjoy playing with trolls, the way some do; you just seem to get annoyed by it (not here [yet], just going on past experience), so....why even reply further than "bad troll. Bad!"?



That aside, @li3n: bad troll! Bad! :-P

 

[@Li3n]

She is powerless to resist my awesome trolling power, that's why... MUHAHAHAHAHAHA....


But this discussion went of the rail long before i posted, as obviously the test aren't about the gender the athlete has from a social standpoint... (though if she is intersex then it will depend on social bias i guess).

 

Zen...Why are you bothering?

Because.

 

[Chazwozel]

Sports suck.

And I highly doubt I could win or be any good at ANY of these type of events, in any gender category.
Genetic or not, there's no flippin' way I could ever outrun any of these people, no matter how much I trained.

What about those 'Special' Olympics these days where people have artificial limbs that are far superior to genetic ones?

Eh, I'll stick to my original standpoint.

Sports suck.


also: gender != sex.

The artificial limb folks compete against each other. There's no advantage of one over the other. Besides, the Special Olympics is more about getting these people with terrible handicaps and having them overcome their disability. In other words, it's not about getting a gold metal more so than a limbless person actually being able to run on a competitive level. The person in the OP article is competing in a different way, that is she's going up against the best of the best, and would have have a clear advantage if she had XY chromosomes. Her testosterone levels can be much higher to the point of resembling steroid use in women. Then again...it's not like it's her own choice, but genetically she would be a man. I just wouldn't be able to condone letting her metal against women who are at a disadvantage in terms of that kind of hormone output. If it turns out she's got the pair of X's though, more power to her in the women's events! I mean look at the Flyod Landis doping case. His claim was that his natural testosterone to estrogen level was 11:1. All the same, he was charged for doping and lost his metals.

And sports don't suck. There's a lot of value learned in team sports and being physically peaked is just as important for your life balance as other aspects. Sports let human beings do what they do best on a primal level; that is, being competitive mammals.

 

[Dubyamn]

The person in the OP article is competing in a different way, that is she's going up against the best of the best, and would have have a clear advantage if she had XY chromosomes. Her testosterone levels can be much higher to the point of resembling steroid use in women. Then again...it's not like it's her own choice, but genetically she would be a man. I just wouldn't be able to condone letting her metal against women who are at a disadvantage in terms of that kind of hormone output.

But the reason why she would be born female with XY chromosomes is that she has a reduced reaction to Testosterone which is why when she was in the womb she formed as a female. I mean this is the first I've ever heard of somebody claiming that XY is the genetic code for some kind of superwoman.

Of course that's assuming that she's XY. From what I hear the women who actually have the condition turn out much more... buxom than she did. But of course there are exceptions and odd presentations to every disease known so it's still possible.

If it turns out she's got the pair of X's though, more power to her in the women's events! I mean look at the Flyod Landis doping case. His claim was that his natural testosterone to estrogen level was 11:1. All the same, he was charged for doping and lost his metals.

The Flyod Landis case always struck me as really screwy. I mean it was so ridiculously high that he really would have taken a simply huge amount assuming that he wouldn't get caught which makes no sense to me.

 

[Chibibar]

I wonder about those "super genes" (what I barely remember from Biology in college) XXX and XXy There are some women who has these (not sure how) how does that work?

 

[Dubyamn]

I wonder about those \"super genes\" (what I barely remember from Biology in college) XXX and XXy There are some women who has these (not sure how) how does that work?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Meiosis_Overview.svg

The homologous chromosomes stay together in the second step so 2 of the cells at the end will have 3 chromosomes in them while 2 of the cells will have only 1 chromosome. Now normally the X and Y chromosomes split up so that the Daughter Nuclei have only X or Y chromosomes. However if they don't split up one daughter Nuclei will have X and Y chromosomes and the 2 sperm or eggs produced from them will have both. The children from these will be have the XXy and XXX genotype.

The other side will have neither an X or a Y so the 2 sperm or eggs produced from that cell will also have neither. Children from these will have only 1 X chromosome since only a Y chromosome will not allow life.

 

[Chibibar]

I wonder about those \"super genes\" (what I barely remember from Biology in college) XXX and XXy There are some women who has these (not sure how) how does that work?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Meiosis_Overview.svg

The homologous chromosomes stay together in the second step so 2 of the cells at the end will have 3 chromosomes in them while 2 of the cells will have only 1 chromosome. Now normally the X and Y chromosomes split up so that the Daughter Nuclei have only X or Y chromosomes. However if they don't split up one daughter Nuclei will have X and Y chromosomes and the 2 sperm or eggs produced from them will have both. The children from these will be have the XXy and XXX genotype.

The other side will have neither an X or a Y so the 2 sperm or eggs produced from that cell will also have neither. Children from these will have only 1 X chromosome since only a Y chromosome will not allow life.

so would XXy consider to be female or male (since there is a y) what if the physical person is all female (parts, hormones and all) but the genetic code has a y. That is where I'm going with this question

 

[Dubyamn]

so would XXy consider to be female or male (since there is a y) what if the physical person is all female (parts, hormones and all) but the genetic code has a y. That is where I'm going with this question

They're male.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter%27s_syndrome

 

[Chibibar]

so would XXy consider to be female or male (since there is a y) what if the physical person is all female (parts, hormones and all) but the genetic code has a y. That is where I'm going with this question

They're male.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter%27s_syndrome

so in Olympic issue, they would need to compete in the male division instead of female right?

if that is the case, then if this person is proven XY (or XXY) then they would be male and disqualify on the medal?

 

[SeraRelm]

They let kids compete, why not man-women?

 

[GasBandit]

kids

 

[sixpackshaker]

They let kids compete, why not man-women?

But South Africa is not hosting the games. Nor do they have 313,000,000 soldiers ready for service.

 

[Dubyamn]

so in Olympic issue, they would need to compete in the male division instead of female right?

It would probably never enter their minds to enter the female division seeing as how they were born with a Penis. Same reason why this woman entered the competition as a female because every time she looked down she saw vag.

if that is the case, then if this person is proven XY (or XXY) then they would be male and disqualify on the medal?

Why? She was born female grew up female her entire life thought that she was female and is only now being genetically tested and humiliated because of sore losers. She didn't cheat, lie or in anyway shape or form. There is no proof that she gained anything from her genetic makeup so why should she be humiliated and her career ruined because of random chance giving her a resistance to Testosterone?

She won her medal fair and square. If the governing bodies have a problem with it they need to shell out for genetic tests for every competitor before the race begins and not change up the rules after the race is run.

 

[sixpackshaker]

There was no change in the rules. If you cheat, you cheat. It does not matter whether or not you know. Just like how baseball players cry because they did not know that the 'clear' was steroids/whatever. They took a banned substance and got caught.

Her career is not over, she can just start running against the men. But then the men would complain because she has less "between the legs resistance."

 

[Dubyamn]

There was no change in the rules. If you cheat, you cheat. It does not matter whether or not you know. Just like how baseball players cry because they did not know that the 'clear' was steroids/whatever. They took a banned substance and got caught.

If you really believe that the baseball players thought that they were being injected with multivitamins I have a bridge I would love to sell you.

And there is a change in the rules. Before the competition a quick glace between the legs was all that was necessary afterwords a full genetic test.

Her career is not over, she can just start running against the men. But then the men would complain because she has less \"between the legs resistance.\"

Yes and I'm sure her lower testosterone, shorter legs and hundred other physical differences will allow her to be a real competitor with men who can heal faster, gain muscle mass faster and have increased stamina.

http://berlin.iaaf.org/results/racedate ... 800_hash_f

http://berlin.iaaf.org/results/racedate ... 00_hash_sf

Every male on the field beat her time by 9-10 seconds and these races are decided by fractions of seconds. She will not be able to compete.

 

[Norris]

And there is a change in the rules. Before the competition a quick glace between the legs was all that was necessary afterwords a full genetic test.

True. But there is a reason for it: there's no reason to test for cheating before someone kicks everyone else's ass. Had she come in third, there would be reason to suspect cheating....but no reason to root it out since she was gaining too much of an untoward advantage from it. If you're cheating and fall even JUST above average, fewer people care because you're not truly beating the best of the best of the best, sir! If you cheat and beat everyone else, then people start to care.

 

[strawman]

-Adam

 

[Dubyamn]

True. But there is a reason for it: there's no reason to test for cheating before someone kicks everyone else's a**. Had she come in third, there would be reason to suspect cheating....but no reason to root it out since she was gaining too much of an untoward advantage from it.

But there is no reason to suspect cheating in this case. Like I said she doesn't fit the standard phenotype for XY women nor is there any link between XY giving athletes an advantage over normal XX women so unless you are proposing that all winners automatically get genetically tested or have to prove that they are genetically women you are changing the rules after the race is run.