Path of Exile (Diablo 2's real sequel)

[GasBandit]

Name a game that has a complex leveling system that doesn't require effor on the part of the user to develop an optimized character for end game.

WoW: insanely min-maxed. Respec is easier but gear grinding is incredibly important

Respec is ubiquitous, and oh look, THE WARRIORS CAN USE SWORDS.

D2: same as this game, worse really since there is no way to respec and only 1-2 viable end game builds per class

D3: No leveling system really but an insane gearing min maxing required

That's as may be, I haven't played a diablo since 1.

EvE: Gearing is incredibly min/maxed, leveling doesn't really exist in the traditional sense but you have to focus/plan

That's getting pretty close into apples to oranges territory.

Morrowind and/or Oblivion: insanely min/max leveling, to the point that you would take skills you couldn't accidentally level so that you would get the max stat gain on level. No respec.

Didn't play them but that sounds like a bad design decision too. Funny how they apparently got rid of that for Skyrim.

Borderlands 1/2: never played end game much but I assume you min/max your tree. And have fun being good with every gun.

AHA! Finally one I know! You're wrong here. You can be good with any gun you choose so long as you are willing to put the time in to using it, because your skill with a weapon solely depends on how much you use it, and doesn't figure into leveling. My Roland was a whiz with SMGs and Sniper Rifles - and his class is supposed to be about Assault Rifles and Shotguns, but I never found any of those that could compare with The Maliwan Inferno and Hellfire. So I took the Siren's SMGs and the Hunter's sniper rifles... and was frickin AWESOME with them, with no added level of inconvenience/leveling/extra gear required specifically for those weapons. Borderlands is a good example of how to do it right.

Remember; you do get a lot of respec points. With these and orbs of regret you can repair a build.

There's no "repair" though for having to put points down a path to never-never land. When min-maxing is so important, the marauder apparently can't spare the distraction to spend 13 levels worth of points to be able to know how to hold a sword in his hand. Max level is, what, 100? That's 13% of your spec points!

 

[Necronic]

In Borderlands 1 you got skill points in a certain weapon the more you used it, effectively locking you in. It was a bad system and they removed it.

In Borderlands 2 you have a lot of skill nodes that are to a specific weapon, like Roland who has a ton of Assault Rifle nodes. Or Zero who has a ton of Sniper nodes. Of course you CAN run Zero with assault rifles, or Roland with Sniper rifles, but its tricky because you lose out on a lot of build options. No different from this game except that you can respec easier. Also its different because there isn't another levelling game around that is more fun at early levels than Borderlands 2. Ahhhhh Claptrap.

And while a Warrior can use swords in WoW, can he effectively spec to both 1h and 2h? Not really (unless they've dumbed the game down even farther from the last time I played, wouldn't be surprised.)

 

[tegid]

I read somewhere that this was a game by hardcore gamers for hardcore gamers. I read that as 'the necessity to plan is purposeful'.

Besides this, on the whole swords discussion, meh. In Diablo, for instance, you had many weapons that were class specific, didn't you? Here that wouldn't make much sense because the classes are not closed, so the different weapons rely on different stats. Seems natural. Maybe the sword shouldn't be a Dex weapon? Maybe the types of weapons shouldn't be sword/axe/hammer/etc but heavy/light/Dexranged/Strranged/wands or something like that? Maybe such a choice would make the game more inmersive, but it's not a good solution either if it's not very easy to distinguish the different kinds of weapons (plus, it doesn't allow for the granularization there is in this game)

 

[Dave]

But the point is that ALL swords are str/DEX and ALL hammers are STR and ALL axes are STR/dex. You can get to a sword build - as I did - where you can get bonuses to sword weapon speed, damage, and accuracy...and then not be able to USE any because there is no dex along that path. That's just stupid. Essentially, you can train to be an expert in a weapon you can't fucking use!!

 

[Bowielee]

Name a game that has a complex leveling system that doesn't require effor on the part of the user to develop an optimized character for end game.

WoW: insanely min-maxed. Respec is easier but gear grinding is incredibly important

D2: same as this game, worse really since there is no way to respec and only 1-2 viable end game builds per class

D3: No leveling system really but an insane gearing min maxing required

EvE: Gearing is incredibly min/maxed, leveling doesn't really exist in the traditional sense but you have to focus/plan

Morrowind and/or Oblivion: insanely min/max leveling, to the point that you would take skills you couldn't accidentally level so that you would get the max stat gain on level. No respec.

Borderlands 1/2: never played end game much but I assume you min/max your tree. And have fun being good with every gun.

Only games I can think of where you didn't min max for end game that much are Skyrim, which had a terrible difficulty scaling.

Remember; you do get a lot of respec points. With these and orbs of regret you can repair a build.

Every single game you mentioned, I played start to finish with the same character without having to go through and start over from scratch to complete the game. With the exception of EvE online because I've never really played it beyond a few hours.

Having to completely scrap your character because you took a wrong turn somewhere in your skill tree is retarded.

 

[GasBandit]

I read somewhere that this was a game by hardcore gamers for hardcore gamers. I read that as 'the necessity to plan is purposeful'.

Besides this, on the whole swords discussion, meh. In Diablo, for instance, you had many weapons that were class specific, didn't you? Here that wouldn't make much sense because the classes are not closed, so the different weapons rely on different stats. Seems natural. Maybe the sword shouldn't be a Dex weapon? Maybe the types of weapons shouldn't be sword/axe/hammer/etc but heavy/light/Dexranged/Strranged/wands or something like that? Maybe such a choice would make the game more inmersive, but it's not a good solution either if it's not very easy to distinguish the different kinds of weapons (plus, it doesn't allow for the granularization there is in this game)

The crazy thing is there are swords that are dex weapons, mostly fencing type stuff for the duelist, which makes sense to me. A claymore, however, is not a dex weapon, and it is foolish to instate rules that say a musclebound menace can't even figure out how a 50 pound sword works because his dexterity is too low, and then, as Dave points out, make it onorous/buildkilling to get the dex necessary to make it so he can.

In Borderlands 1 you got skill points in a certain weapon the more you used it, effectively locking you in. It was a bad system and they removed it.

Oh, I disagree that it was a bad system... and even if you weren't "as skilled" with a given weapon, you at least still had the capability to hold and fire it. Here, it's DING LEVEL 13, ONO I FORGOT HOW TO SWROD.

(slight correction to Dave, not all swords require dex... the ones from copper down to rusty don't)

 

[Dave]

Okay, this build goes right to Legendary Swordsman in 12 levels. So my character is really, really good with a sword. But then when I get to the next couple of levels I either stay with the minor weapon I have or I'm screwed. Or I could go to a dex node - which is very, very close - but it goes nowhere! Unless I want to loop back and get more sword stuff. Other than that, I've wasted points going that way. And what do I give up to do that? Life, 1-handed skill, armor or shield abilities.

 

[Necronic]

Every single game you mentioned, I played start to finish with the same character without having to go through and start over from scratch to complete the game. With the exception of EvE online because I've never really played it beyond a few hours.

Having to completely scrap your character because you took a wrong turn somewhere in your skill tree is retarded.

First off there is no way you played D2 into Hell Cows without rerolling or researching your build, unless someone twinked you to 99. That game had a more unforgiving spec system than this one, and Blizz had a tendency to patch the game in such a way as to completely wreck the builds.

For Oblivion/Morrowind (which one was it that you min/maxed your levels in that weird way???) the problem was mostly with difficulty scaling. Those games did not scale well difficulty wise. Same could be said of Borderlands 1. There really wasn't an "end game" in those, it was just "Oh wow I am so overpowered this isn't really even fun anymore". To me that hurts the game, it's not a good attribute.

I get why people don't like not being able to respec easily, but I also get why they don't allow respec. It causes a couple of problems:

1) It will allow people to palytest min/max builds instantly which will remove the 'discovery' aspect of build design from the game, and would probably reduce the game down to 1-2 builds, including respeccing at different difficulty levels, or even at different boss fights. It would really make it harder to balance.

2) It allows people to match their gear to their skills easier. If you find some amazing sword you can just respec to use it. This also accelerates player motion through the difficulty levels too fast.

I mean, I realize that what I am saying is that "It's good because it's difficult" and you guys are saying "It's bad because it's too difficult". We just have a different approach to games. I like a game that is a never ending chasm of research and progress. I don't want to hit end game quickly in a game, I want it to take a while, and I want it to punish me for making mistakes.

 

[Frank]

I've been looking on the forums at builds. All the "good" ones seem to beeline around that massive mess of a skill grid bypassing 99% of the stuff along the way for key skills and powerups. That looks to me like that bloated mess is either poorly designed or designed to intentionally fuck you up by taking lesser nodes.

 

[Dave]

I've been looking on the forums at builds. All the "good" ones seem to beeline around that massive mess of a skill grid bypassing 99% of the stuff along the way for key skills and powerups. That looks to me like that bloated mess is either poorly designed or designed to intentionally fuck you up by taking lesser nodes.

So....there are only a couple of viable builds for endgame content? Now where have I heard that before...?

Now, if they allowed for some stat updates or even had automatic stat updates per level based on class (Marauder could have +4 STR, +2 DEX, +1 INT per level, for example) then this would be a great game and balanced. You could min/max to those specific nodes and be uber powerful or you could take some of these more specialized nodes and remain a viable build.

 

[SpecialKO]

I have yet to play this game, but this sounds a little like they they wanted to make a thinking man's version of the Kingdom's of Amalur build trees but it got away from them.

 

[Necronic]

So....there are only a couple of viable builds for endgame content? Now where have I heard that before...?

Now, if they allowed for some stat updates or even had automatic stat updates per level based on class (Marauder could have +4 STR, +2 DEX, +1 INT per level, for example) then this would be a great game and balanced. You could min/max to those specific nodes and be uber powerful or you could take some of these more specialized nodes and remain a viable build.

If you did that then you would prevent Marauders from being viable casters.

 

[PatrThom]

I'm really enjoying my Duelist so far. Bow for ranged, dual-sword for up close, and picking skills to match. Granted, I'm not even level 20 yet, but the build feels solid so far.[DOUBLEPOST=1361904201][/DOUBLEPOST]

If you find out you are 30 levels in and you fucked up then you are just totally screwed and should start again. They need to have respecs at the very least. (Besides the 1 or two points here and there that don't matter.)

Aren't you getting orbs of regret? I keep getting the things and stockpiling them. I just haven't seen the need to use any yet.

--Patrick

 

[Dave]

If you did that then you would prevent Marauders from being viable casters.

Now you're just being deliberately obtuse.[DOUBLEPOST=1361904847][/DOUBLEPOST]

Aren't you getting orbs of regret? I keep getting the things and stockpiling them. I just haven't seen the need to use any yet.

--Patrick

I've only seen 1 orb of regret and 4 respec points at this point.

 

[Necronic]

Now you're just being deliberately obtuse.[DOUBLEPOST=1361904847][/DOUBLEPOST]

I've only seen 1 orb of regret and 4 respec points at this point.

I'm not being obtuse. You just have to think of this game differently from others. Every instinct you have from previous games like this tell you that when you roll a maurader you end up with a melee character. When you use a ranger it's a bow character. But that's not right in this game. The character is whatever you choose to build on the tree. The starting points/characters only matter in that they are starting points.

Honestly this may be the mos confusing/difficult aspect of the game, it took me a while to figure out. Mauraders can be casters. Witches can be dual daggers. Rangers don't have to use bows. You choose the playstyle you want then figure out the build, it may or may not be in line with the characters.

That's why I keep saying there are so many builds. There are at least 4 highly viable classes for a variety of bow characters (Maurader, ranger, duelist, and shadow), and you could probably do it with all six (some strange CI bow witch or something.)

I don't think I've clearly explained this yet, so when I get home I'll post a bunch of different builds to show you what I mean.

 

[Dave]

You were being obtuse and snarky because I'm not saying they should change the passive tree, just give some bonuses to stats each level. You can still build towards spellcasting as a Marauder, using the same methods you used. In fact, it'll be easier because you won't necessarily have to go out of your way to hit stat nodes.

 

[Necronic]

No, it wouldn't. If the Witch got 4 times the base Int from levels that the Maurader got then you would never want to run a caster with a Maurader because it would be completely gimped compared to the witch. Not trying to be snarky. Just looking at the full reppurcussions of that.

 

[Dave]

No, it wouldn't. If the Witch got 4 times the base Int from levels that the Maurader got then you would never want to run a caster with a Maurader because it would be completely gimped compared to the witch. Not trying to be snarky. Just looking at the full reppurcussions of that.

You wouldn't want to run a Marauder caster NOW as opposed to a witch. That would be foolish. You'd have to put too many skills into getting to a viable build and you'd be a crappy caster and a crappy fighter. Just like you would be the other way.

 

[Gared]

The tree is, and can be, a little poorly thought out, and I agree with Dave a lot about how ridiculous it is to have a bunch of sword based weapon proficiencies right next to the Marauder starting node and then leave you stranded for the amount of Dex you need to even wield a medium-low level sword. I'm sure the tree will be tweaked before too much longer - I suspect part of the reason for the open beta race season is to see what classes are most successful, which ones are lacking, and what builds people take most often so that GGG can rebalance the classes. I also like the fact that when they discovered that Shadows were really underpowered, they boosted that one class instead of nerfing the other 5 or just ignoring it like a certain other big game dev would have done.

As for that massive skill grid, I assume we're talking about the one in the middle of the tree, which, as I understand it, is either there only because GGG felt the tree seemed too empty aesthetically without something in the middle, so they tried to put a bunch of easily balance-able passives in there OR because in Alpha, everyone started there instead of having the individual starting nodes per class. Regardless, no matter how noble the intentions of the devs of any game are regarding balance, players will always manage to find some way that's easier to level than another way, and then the majority of people will start playing that path in order to not be left behind by the leaders of the pack. It doesn't necessarily mean that some of the other builds aren't just as viable as the one everyone is playing, it just may take more work, or more strategy, or more time; and some people will play those builds and be very good at it, but most people won't. Though there are some completely inappropriate builds that just won't work at high levels no matter what you try, and there are a lot of things that need to be retooled. Marauders being unable to use claymores because they're not dextrous enough, or Rangers having to spec into Iron Reflexes because they can't take more than 1 hit in Cruel or Merciless, for example. Let's face it though, in this age of readily available theory-crafting data, gameplay video streaming, and internet celebrity - any builds Kripparian or Nugiyen play are going to be immediately copied by a sizable number of people, and before long it's going to feel like there are only a select few playable builds in end-game content.

Oh, and yes, the drop rates for various orbs are wildly random. I've had characters that made it to level 30 and had 7 or 8 orbs of alchemy and I've got a level 42 Ranger that hasn't seen more than one drop in all of that play time. I think I only have 3 orbs of regret total in the Default league (where I've been spending most of my time recently, since it doesn't seem like they've fixed the permastun issue that melee characters seem to be frequently running into since 0.10.1d was released, and I'm tired of losing hardcore characters because they're suddenly unable to do anything except drink potions), and I've run probably 8 or 9 characters up to level 30 and two of them up to 40+ so far.

 

[Necronic]

You wouldn't want to run a Marauder caster NOW as opposed to a witch. That would be foolish. You'd have to put too many skills into getting to a viable build and you'd be a crappy caster and a crappy fighter. Just like you would be the other way.

No you can totally do it now, and it's pretty viable late game (it's the dual wand Maurader I was talking about). It's a goofy(ish) build. You grab a lot of life/armor/resists from the Maurader tree and just blitz straight up to the witch tree, grabbing some of the more interesting passives along the way (like the elemental damage stuff in the Templar tree). Going that way, or in reverse from the witch tree to the maurader tree, is one of the few ways you can run a witch without having to grab CI.

ed: Think of it like a Barbarian Shaman.

 

[Dave]

So do you think, Gared, that adding minor stat updates on level based on class would help with the viability of builds? I say do it this way:

Marauder (STR): +5 STR, +2 DEX, +1 INT (per level)

Duelist (STR/DEX): +3 STR, +3 DEX, +1 INT

Ranger (DEX): +5 DEX, +2 INT, +1 STR

Shadow (DEX/INT): +3 DEX, +3 INT, +1 STR

Witch (INT): +5 INT, +2 DEX, +1 STR

Templar (INT/STR): +3 INT, +3 STR, +1 DEX

 

[Gared]

So do you think, Gared, that adding minor stat updates on level based on class would help with the viability of builds? I say do it this way:

Marauder (STR): +5 STR, +2 DEX, +1 INT (per level)

Duelist (STR/DEX): +3 STR, +3 DEX, +1 INT

Ranger (DEX): +5 DEX, +2 INT, +1 STR

Shadow (DEX/INT): +3 DEX, +3 INT, +1 STR

Witch (INT): +5 INT, +2 DEX, +1 STR

Templar (INT/STR): +3 INT, +3 STR, +1 DEX

I don't know. Honestly, I'd rather that they just rework the stat requirements of weapons (strip Dex requirements off of larger, heavier swords and axes, look into the Int requirement on most daggers, etc.) than try adding in a possibly further complicating mechanic. For instance, they'd likely need to take the pure stat nodes out of the tree (or at least most of them) if they went that route, because my ranger has about 240 Dex, 80+ Str, and 40+ Int as it is; and adding +5 Dex per level, +2 Int per level, and +1 Str per level would give her 450 Dex, 120+ Int and 120+ Str with her current build at her current level, and that could be just ridiculous since bow damage is based off of Dex (unless I take the passive that grants the Str bonus that usually only applies to melee weapon damage to bows as well, and then it would be even more insane). As it is, I'm completely fine with keeping some swords restricted to high-dex characters, like the rapiers and knives for the duelist, and maybe even some of the 1 handed axes. Just not two-handed swords and axes.

 

[GasBandit]

I don't know. Honestly, I'd rather that they just rework the stat requirements of weapons (strip Dex requirements off of larger, heavier swords and axes, look into the Int requirement on most daggers, etc.) than try adding in a possibly further complicating mechanic. For instance, they'd likely need to take the pure stat nodes out of the tree (or at least most of them) if they went that route, because my ranger has about 240 Dex, 80+ Str, and 40+ Int as it is; and adding +5 Dex per level, +2 Int per level, and +1 Str per level would give her 450 Dex, 120+ Int and 120+ Str with her current build at her current level, and that could be just ridiculous since bow damage is based off of Dex (unless I take the passive that grants the Str bonus that usually only applies to melee weapon damage to bows as well, and then it would be even more insane). As it is, I'm completely fine with keeping some swords restricted to high-dex characters, like the rapiers and knives for the duelist, and maybe even some of the 1 handed axes. Just not two-handed swords and axes.

Or, maybe if they just scaled the dex requirement more appropriately, and maybe threw a few dex nodes into the 1-handed area of the Marauder tree. That could work too.

 

[Dave]

Point taken on the stats adding up. It would be impossible for them to take the stat nodes out of the tree. I agree they need to figure out the weapons balance better.

 

[Necronic]

Why not just use a deulist then move to the Maurader tree? I'm still having a very hard time understanding the problem you are trying to solve.

ed: Unless you just want to be able to use any melee weapon with a Maurader regardless of stats. That seems simply untennable.

 

[Gared]

Or, maybe if they just scaled the dex requirement more appropriately, and maybe threw a few dex nodes into the 1-handed area of the Marauder tree. That could work too.

Yeah, they could scale it back some and add some dex nodes into the tree. I wouldn't necessarily want them just in the 1-handed area though, since I tend to play mainly 2-h Marauders and I'd still love to be able to use some of the massive two-handed swords that my ranger keeps selling off because she doesn't have the strength for them. Either put a fair amount of dex into the Marauder tree and split it between 1-h and 2-h weapon areas, or throw them into/near the sword specific areas of the tree.

 

[Dave]

Unless you just want to be able to use any melee weapon with a Maurader regardless of stats. That seems simply untennable.

Why?

 

[CynicismKills]

Just to chime in here, most builds you see on the forums are likely set up for Hardcore progression, so they'll skip a lot of things for +health and the like. I'm building my Templar how I want, not according to any builds, and I'm about done with the first difficulty. It's going pretty well so far, though I do need to get him some more survivability.

 

[PatrThom]

It would seem like they could remedy some of what Dave is talking about by making the nodes that border the two regions (i.e., the ones that go "straight" out from the hybrid classes) into nodes which grant 1/2&1/2 skill (e.g., some str/some dex) rather than all nodes being "pure" stats, but I can see that instead angering those people who just want to go pure.

--Patrick

 

[CynicismKills]

It would seem like they could remedy some of what Dave is talking about by making the nodes that border the two regions (i.e., the ones that go "straight" out from the hybrid classes) into nodes which grant 1/2&1/2 skill (e.g., some str/some dex) rather than all nodes being "pure" stats, but I can see that instead angering those people who just want to go pure.

--Patrick

There's a couple nodes like that, but they're few and far between. Adding more wouldn't be a bad thing but odds are they'd be closer to the hybrid areas (duelist/shadow/templar) than the pure areas (everyone else).

 

[GasBandit]

Why not just use a deulist then move to the Maurader tree? I'm still having a very hard time understanding the problem you are trying to solve.

ed: Unless you just want to be able to use any melee weapon with a Maurader regardless of stats. That seems simply untennable.

Because I want to be a sword and shield tank. Not a dual wielding epee-fop. Call it aesthetic if you want, the way it is currently is asinine. I don't want "any" weapon, just the weapons that a burly Conan expy would reasonably be expected to be able to wield in-world, before any figuring about what's going on under the hood preventing it. Hammers, axes, broadswords, . Those sort of things. Not necessarily the lighter fencing/stabbing swords, as those make more lore sense for the duelist exile.

As I said, the whole thing could probably be fixed by putting in a few dex nodes around appropriate areas of the marauder tree, and/or reworking the scaling of the dex requirements on the heavier swords and axes.

 

[Dave]

Or making some of the nodes be +10 to any stat. So like every 3rd stat node or so could be any stat.

 

[PatrThom]

More like all stats. So the intersection would be a +10 to all, and then you can choose to take a side loop that is nothing but the stat you want most.

--Patrick

 

[Bubble181]

Okay, Dave? I've played Diablo II to death and back again, and IF there's a respec after the Den of Evil, it was added after the latest patch gearing up for D3 release. Den just gave you 1 extra skill point up to that point.

 

[Gared]

Okay, Dave? I've played Diablo II to death and back again, and IF there's a respec after the Den of Evil, it was added after the latest patch gearing up for D3 release. Den just gave you 1 extra skill point up to that point.

Yeah, it was patched in fairly late in the game's lifecycle.