Random Comic Book Crap

[Celt Z]

Okay, I'm a bit more awake now. I thought I had discussed this before on here, but I think I'm mixing memories with hating the movie on here and hating the movie on Twitter. Gonna tag @Tinwhistler in case he misses my diatribe.

So, one of Watchmen's major themes is xenophobia, the fear of the other. Rorschach at several points seems to have a distaste for minorities or gay people, for example. There's also an underseeded homophobia around the relationship between Hooded Justice and Captain Metropolis, but it's subtle, so a lot of readers miss it. There's the fear of how inhuman Dr Manhattan has become, not just for his god-like power, but in how he's slowly becoming more detached from humanity (including his own).

Most notably, there's xenophobia around foreigners. Non-white characters is often dehumanized, like how The Comedian treats people during his time in Vietnam. The cars in the comic are all American made, by Veidt Industries (and Dr Manhattan was planning on introducing electric cars).

And then there's the pending Russian invasion.

Throughout the whole book, Russia is like a pendulum slowly swinging its way towards an invasion of the U.S. The book came out in the 80s, at the height of the cold war, when Russia invading or attacking the U.S. was a constant and viable threat. Propaganda against Russia was constant, much like it is in the comic. What better way to show xenophobia than with literal outsides at the gate. The only thing that stops their is world peace, by way of the giant squid.

Here's the thing with the squid. Yes, it's ludicrous. But here's the thing: it's supposed to be. It's supposed to be most ludicrous, unbelievably thing imaginable...because that's what makes it so alien. There is absolutely nothing about it that the average human being can relate to. It's impossible. It's literally a giant, alien, psychic squid. It's literally inhuman.

Which is exactly why it's the ultimate sign of xenophobia. It's so foreign, so alien, that no one on the planet can relate to it. It's beyond borders. It's beyond skin tone. There is literally nothing to relate to it. So, when you have a world filled to the brim with xenophobia, of course we're going to unite against this thing that looks absolutely nothing like ANY of us in any conceivable way.

Which is exactly why Dr. Manhattan as the fall guy instead, thematically or logically, does not work.

He's an American, with an American upbringing, and an American education. He worked for an American company. His accident is the result of an American science experiment. Everything about him traces back to the same problem: America. Sure, he's blue and has god-like powers, but he was still originally human. He still appears human, for all intents and purposes. He's still relatable to the average human in multiple ways. Is he the only blue human on the planet? Sure, but that blue human still has an identifiable penis. Outside of the blue skin, he still shares most traits commonly associated with a human (cis) male.

But the world peace would be even more unstable when it's learned that he's a product of an American upbringing and American science. Russia would likely be quick to scrutinize this and point blame directly at Dr. Manhattan. With the squid, there is nothing to directly tie with American science. Plus, many people forget that upon the squid's arrival, it also let out a psychic whiplash that embedded images in survivor's minds to further back up the believability that it came from somewhere else.

Also, completely unrelated, but it always bugged me that the movie decided to make the explosion "bigger" by having multiple cities attacked all at once, instead just New York. But that's just Snyder feeling like things has to be "bigger" for cinema.

So while I agree with everything you've written here, and your analysis of the book in spot-on, I do think the ending Snyder chose within the context of the movie was the better choice. (I can't believe I'm defending him in any context, but here we go.) Like Poe mentioned, Snyder didn't focus on every part of the source material, and he downplayed the rampant xenophobia. Also, by 2009, we're in an Obama-America, and if anything recent politics have shown us, the average person has a short memory. And unlike in the book/comics, we didn't have time to ruminate on the Black Sails comic-within-the comic, or the lives and commentary given by the scientists working for Veidt. We were given the message that in order to unite people, we had to create a common enemy, but an unexplained space squid would have probably been a step too far for the average movie goer, whose wallets Snyder and Co. were trying to reach. The audience lacked the context for it, by either not having read the book, being over 20 years out from Reagan/Cold War America, and not enough contextual clues from the movie itself. And if you don't do these things, no matter how closely you adhere to the original story, you're going to lose the average viewer.

The best example I can think of recently is the movie adaptation of Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban. A lot of people hailed it as one of the best HP book adaptations. But when the movie was cut together, it never explained that the Marauders had all adopted animagus forms, and Harry's dad had taken the form of a stag. While those who read the books were moved by the emotional climax, people like Mr. Z, who hadn't read the books yet, were like, "What's up with the deer?" and very confused about why it ended as it did.

 

[Tinwhistler]

I'm probably opening up a can of worms, but I HATE the movie ending of Watchmen. The giant squid ending is vastly superior because it fits with the themes of the book. Making Dr Manhattan the target instead not only doesn't make sense upon any scrutiny, it completely misses the point of the one of the book's core themes: xenophobia.

I'd go into greater default but I'm still waking up. I'm not saying you're not allowed to like the movie ending more. I just politely and vehemently disagree.

Totally fine with me I understand that a lot of people like the book ending better, and I even understand the arguments for that. I just don't feel the same way. People can have different opinions without either being 'wrong'

To expand on my earlier post, I feel the movie ending makes the case that people are quick to turn on others as soon as they get a whiff of controversy. I'm thinking of the cases of like when the Reddit hivemind misidentified the Boston Bomber. But also points to cancel culture, at large. Nobody falls so fast as someone who's been put up on a pedestal and deified as soon as there's a little blood in the water. And I see that in the movie version, where Dr. Manhattan is given the blame for the holocaust. I also see political parallels where people won't look too deeply one direction, if there's enough negative finger-pointing at a perceived "other". In both book and movie versions, the water is chummed a bit with the whole cancer hoax thing, and I thought turning the world against Manhattan further fit in well as an added push for his decision to leave the planet at the end.

(Don't get me wrong--I'm totally for naming and shaming bad actors. I'm not against 'cancelling' someone who deserves it--that's a different discussion entirely. I just see the same human nature trends in the movie ending).

And, well, the squid thing just seems dumb as hell to me. But that could be because I saw the movie first, and so was more invested in how the story played out in that medium.

 

[@Li3n]

People can have different opinions without either being 'wrong'

Sure, but that's not the case here.

The movie ending make no sense, Dr. M. turning on humanity and then just leaving would be like a bully coming to your house, beating you and you family up, leaving you with missing limbs, shrugging off a shotgun shell and then no one can find him, or even has any idea how to hurt him.

It wouldn't unite humanity, it would just give them the mother of all PTSD, and probably start a huge doomsdays cult. And make every faction in the world work on it's own escape plan they they likely not share with anyone else in case they tell a returning Manhattan about it to get spared.


The squid itself was silly because it was a reference to silly comic book monsters, but tehy could have changed that easily, it's not like alien invaders was not a know movie trope. Cloverfield came out a year earlier even.


The point of it was that IT DIES!!! So it shows people that, while it's a powerful alien foe, it can be defeated. Meanwhile the US ws dominating the Cold War because nukes wouldn't do shit against him, and only held him back because they didn't know if he could stop all the soviet nukes.

someone who's been put up on a pedestal and deified as soon as there's a little blood in the water.

And that's another thing. In the comic everyone was low key terrified of him. That's why they easily believed the cancer thing. And why he believed it himself so easily.

added push for his decision to leave the planet at the end.

But that works with the squid too, since the threat is trivial for a country that has him, and thus the US has little reason to ally with the USSR.

While those who read the books were moved by the emotional climax, people like Mr. Z, who hadn't read the books yet, were like, "What's up with the deer?" and very confused about why it ended as it did.

I think you might be misremembering the climax, they don't show the stag then, just in the original lake scene:



And if they didn't make any mention of Harry's dad having one as his Patronus and/or his animagus form, then that's just bad film-making, since it doesn't explain why Harry expected it to be from his father, as he mentions in the scene.

 

[Celt Z]

And if they didn't make any mention of Harry's dad having one as his Patronus and/or his animagus form, then that's just bad film-making, since it doesn't explain why Harry expected it to be from his father, as he mentions in the scene.

Yes, I'm slightly off, so I needed to go back and check.

Warner Bros also chose to skip any mention of the fact that, as well as the former jail inmate [Sirius Black], James Potter and Peter Pettigrew became Animagus' as well.
The [book] explains how Sirius, James and Peter all chose to illegally become Animagus' to keep Remus Lupin company during his time as a werewolf. This leads to them giving each other the nicknames of Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs, who then create the Marauders Map. But while Lupin reveals he was behind the creation of the map, the rest of the story is left out.

The movie cut a large amount of the Marauders' backstory, including the nicknames on the map. Having read the book, I didn't notice immediately because I knew the source material, but when Mr. Z asked why certain things were happening, I realized Alfonso Cuaron left out some crucial details.

 

[@Li3n]

And then there's the pending Russian invasion.

Wait, weren't the russians going for nuclear war because the US having Dr. M and winning Vietnam made the americans bolder, and they feared that the longer they didn't fight, the more advantages the US would have.

 

[@Li3n]

Yes, I'm slightly off, so I needed to go back and check.

The movie cut a large amount of the Marauders' backstory, including the nicknames on the map. Having read the book, I didn't notice immediately because I knew the source material, but when Mr. Z asked why certain things were happening, I realized Alfonso Cuaron left out some crucial details.

Well, they didn't mention it while he was training with Lupin even though his father came up, which would have been teh perfect time, considering the dialogue:

 

[ThatNickGuy]

Wait, weren't the russians going for nuclear war because the US having Dr. M and winning Vietnam made the americans bolder, and they feared that the longer they didn't fight, the more advantages the US would have.

Oh shoot, maybe. Were they not also cutting a path across Europe, though? Now I'm not sure. It's been a long time since I last read it. That's why I put invasion OR attack.

Euther way, it was the impending war with Russia.

 

[MindDetective]

Also, @ThatNickGuy , you mentioned as part of the xenophobia theme, Dr. Manhattan losing his humanity and becoming "other". In that context, it still fits, even if not as strongly as some platonic ideal of otherness like interdimensional monsters.

 

[ThatNickGuy]

Also, @ThatNickGuy , you mentioned as part of the xenophobia theme, Dr. Manhattan losing his humanity and becoming "other". In that context, it still fits, even if not as strongly as some platonic ideal of otherness like interdimensional monsters.

It does, you're right, and I realized that as I wrote it. My point, which I might not have made clear, is that for as "other" as he is, he doesn't hold a candle to a giant psychic squid.

 

[@Li3n]

Oh shoot, maybe. Were they not also cutting a path across Europe, though? Now I'm not sure. It's been a long time since I last read it. That's why I put invasion OR attack.

Euther way, it was the impending war with Russia.

Ok, so looking it up fast, the russians invade Afghanistan after Dr. M leaves for Mars.

 

[Tinwhistler]

Sure, but that's not the case here.

Well, if you want to start your post with "well, your opinion is just wrong" I'm not gonna bother reading the rest of it because there's no constructive discussion to be had. But thanks

 

[@Li3n]

Well, if you want to start your post with "well, your opinion is just wrong" I'm not gonna bother reading the rest of it because there's no constructive discussion to be had. But thanks

Well if you're going to assume all opinions are subjective and none can't be wrong, what's the point of any discussion about them ?

It's not like if you find the taste of something i find delicious to be horrible we're going to change how our taste buds work by discussing it.

And y'all need to get over this shit where being wrong is amongst the worst things that can you can do... it's like half the reason why Trump is still popular no matter what he does, because people would rather reject reality then admit to being wrong in any way.

.........


The movie ending make as much sense as Lot deciding to unite the rest of humanity to protect themselves against God burning their cities.

..........

Also, ppl don't get convinced by arguments on the internet, they only do by actually having their world view shattered beyond their ability to delude themselves about it. Just ask Gas.

You should only argue on the internet if you want to practice your argumentation skills.

....

Sure, some ppl might end up using their own logic argument skill to come to the conclusion they are indeed wrong, but it's usually not because of the other person's argument, but their own logic process making them realise they missed something the 1st time (not that it not likely that the counter arguments did help, but no one likes admitting they lost what they see as a competition, so it's not like most ppl would be interested to see how much it helped).

 

[Tinwhistler]

Well if you're going to assume all opinions are subjective and none can't be wrong, what's the point of any discussion about them ?

It's not like if you find the taste of something i find delicious to be horrible we're going to change how our taste buds work by discussing it.

And y'all need to get over this shit where being wrong is amongst the worst things that can you can do... it's like half the reason why Trump is still popular no matter what he does, because people would rather reject reality then admit to being wrong in any way.

Oh...I guess this is the part where you double down.

For the record, I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. I'm having a discussion..you know, for fun and mutual understanding. I'm not debating. I'm trying to prove nothing. Not everything has to be about 'winning'. Some have posted why they support the original comic book ending, and I've conceded I can see that point. I've posted why I find the movie ending more satisfactory. That really *can* be the end of the entire discussion, you know.

But, yeah, I guess my clearly wrong opinions on Watchmen and...uh...opinions...is how Trump got elected. My bad guys.

I've snipped the quote at the point where I stopped reading, so you wouldn't think I was responding to any of that.

 

[ThatNickGuy]

I'm probably opening up a can of worms,

Shit, can someone help me clean up these worms?

 

[@Li3n]

For the record, I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. I'm having a discussion..you know, for fun and mutual understanding. I'm not debating. I'm trying to prove nothing. Not everything has to be about 'winning'.

What do you think a discussion is ? Both side agrees with each other over everything ?

And if it doesn't need to be about 'winning', why does me calling your opinion wrong matter ? Since, i assume you don't care to be proven right because that would be 'winning', right ?

....

And also, who says i'm not going to have fun talking to you about which ending is objectively better ? Or is my opinion about how these sort of discussion are fun and might lead to us understanding each other (prob. not, but hope dies last and all that) better not valid ?

....

Sure, you can not want to discuss the subject in more depth, but don't do it because you didn't like the word i used when challenging you opinion, even though everyone else that challenged it also implied the same, because that's how that works.

I've snipped the quote at the point where I stopped reading, so you wouldn't think I was responding to any of that.

Well, as i've tried saying before, it doesn't really matter to me, since, you know, it's more about practising my thinking about the subject.

But, yeah, I guess my clearly wrong opinions on Watchmen and...uh...opinions...is how Trump got elected. My bad guys.

Again, another annoying thing about society. It's not about you, it's about how it's a trend for everyone, and it's clearly not one that helps.

Hell, i'd argue that dismissing someone's argument unless they're pretending they're not arguing against your point literally has no upside.

But that was more of a rant on my part, because seriously, being wrong and slowly realising it is an important part of how we humans got to being able to have discussions on a bunch of silicone and metals.


....

But of course you can have a subjective opinion about something that is objectively some other way, but i'd call that more of a preference. Like i said, i get why the squid would not have worked for a film, but i also think there where alternatives.

 

[@Li3n]

Shit, can someone help me clean up these worms?

I mean, he called the comic ending dumber, so if i applied his logic, he called your opinion dumber, so it's on him.... /s

...

But also, i would have still responded to him, because the ending making no sense is a pet peeve of mine.

Manhattan doing an Old Testament Wrath of God making everyone unite against him is rather ridiculous, as easily proven by the number of atheists vs. believers in our current world even if you just take into account the people that read the Old Testament.

Maybe i could have made it clear that that doesn't mean the reason he likes it is invalid, it just means it's clearly a subjective one (Manhattan getting othered) that isn't going to stand against the one that objectively makes more sense.

But did get carried away by the whole "opinion" thing, which does tend to annoy me, because most opinions are not actually subjective, and should be argued by default in order to be able label them as such, and not just dismissed as unable to be wrong.

And i do tend to ramble, because of the aforementioned "practising my thinking about the subject".

 

[Tinwhistler]

Shit, can someone help me clean up these worms?

I'm gonna let him oldmanscreamsatcloud.jpg (or is that waaahhhrrrrgarble.jpg?) and have the last word. I've said my piece, and I think I was clear with the things I said. There's no point in reading a ranty wall of text about it. Clearly I touched a fanboy nerve with my opinion, which, you know, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised by. But, fans be crazy, yo.

 

[@Li3n]

I'm gonna let him oldmanscreamsatcloud.jpg (or is that waaahhhrrrrgarble.jpg?) and have the last word.
But, fans be crazy, yo.

You know, i'm starting to doubt your assertion that you're not interested in 'winning'.

 

[@Li3n]

Ok, just 1 more cloud.


Look, someone calling your opinion wrong is not an attack on you or your feelings about a topic, at least not any more then you calling the other ending dumb was an attack on the intellect of anyone that liked it.

And it's perfectly valid that you don't want to discuss a topic further, but don't do it because you felt attacked by a simple disagreement.

Can you really say that if i had started by saying that you calling it dumb means you must be unable to have a constructive discussion about it i would have been right ?

 

[Far]

Not gonna weigh in on all that but just wanted to jump in and say the Watchmen HBO mini series was great and

Spoiler

it retained the squid, showed it can work visually and thematically, and the scene where it pulls back from Wade screaming after just having experienced the psychic whiplash, all the way out to New York and it's aftermath, was the best opening in the series.

 

[Ravenpoe]

Look, someone calling your opinion wrong is not an attack on you or your feelings about a topic, at least not any more then you calling the other ending dumb was an attack on the intellect of anyone that liked it.

So I don't care about this argument, but I do want to point out that you, @Li3n, specifically, often have a hard time disagreeing with someone without wording it like you are attacking them. Maybe this isn't your intention, but you typically come across as very hostile and confrontational, which can lead to others not wanting to engage with you.

Use that information how you will.