Sexism vs bullying: FIGHT!
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She could still have reported it privately and had the convention staff deal with it according to their procedures, and then wrote a blog post about the experience without naming names or showing photographs.
Then both of her primary purposes would have been accomplished, without the third purpose of public shaming.
Don't get me wrong, public shaming can be a very effective tool, but it needs to be applied very carefully. I'm not saying it should never happen, but one should be prepared for the consequences, if any, of choosing to publicly shame someone else, or do so anonymously, as anonymous does.
There's a lot of blowback on anonymous for outing a number of things recently, but there's no single target for the blowback, so it's not a problem for them.
Either way, she needed to have anonymized the individuals, or herself, if she didn't want to suffer the consequences of her public shaming.
Then both of her primary purposes would have been accomplished, without the third purpose of public shaming.
Don't get me wrong, public shaming can be a very effective tool, but it needs to be applied very carefully. I'm not saying it should never happen, but one should be prepared for the consequences, if any, of choosing to publicly shame someone else, or do so anonymously, as anonymous does.
There's a lot of blowback on anonymous for outing a number of things recently, but there's no single target for the blowback, so it's not a problem for them.
Either way, she needed to have anonymized the individuals, or herself, if she didn't want to suffer the consequences of her public shaming.
Here's another good read on the subject - http://www.buzzfeed.com/courtneystanton/a-woman-walks-into-a-tech-conference
GasBandit
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Written by Courtney Stanton, the chick who went thermonuclear over the penny arcade dickwolves.
yeah she has a pretty good perspective on this firsthand sexism in tech/gaming shit, good job pointing that out!
GasBandit
Staff member
Always happy to provide the proper frame of reference.
She makes pretty much all the same major points I made. The public shaming she performed was a poor choice. The public reaction was uncalled for. The company's reactions were inappropriate.
She says that if Adria had contacted Pycon privately it would have been swept under the rug, and so she thinks that the public shaming wasn't as bad as I think it was. I don't believe that to be the case, but it's supposition either way. If this is a possibility though, then I'd suggest a slower course of escalation, rather than going all the way to the top and hitting the men publicly and directly.
but you have a penis and don't hate yourself for it, so your opinion is irrelevant and invalid.
If she'd sent the Twitter pic or whatever just to PyCon security/management, the guys would've been escorted from the hall (as they were) and asked to apologize (as they were). No more would have had to come from it. And, while I think the joke was relatively innocent and, while sexual in nature, not sexist, I can understand her not appreciating it - and '"no sexual jokes" was in the con guidelines, so, eh.
Had they swept it iunder the rug, and had she made it public after that, to shame the guys and the con management, I might've been ok with it (though I'd still say she was overreacting to a bad joke).
Going to the public shaming as first course of action, meant she was being a boneheaded, entitled airhead. Did she really not think through what might happen? Then she's irresponsible. Did she think it through? Then she's a horrible person.
Anonymous' overreaction is typical and wrong and all that, but not the guys' fault. The ONLY thing those guys were guilty of was making a joke that was arguably in bad taste. She blew it all up, and it exploded in her face. No, she doesn't deserve rape threats or death threats or whatever...But she's not the holy virgin, either. She's the cause it escalated.
Also, this sort of thing is exactly where we're going with society. People's views on privacy, anonimity, freedom of speech,... are changing rapidly, and not only for the better.
Had they swept it iunder the rug, and had she made it public after that, to shame the guys and the con management, I might've been ok with it (though I'd still say she was overreacting to a bad joke).
Going to the public shaming as first course of action, meant she was being a boneheaded, entitled airhead. Did she really not think through what might happen? Then she's irresponsible. Did she think it through? Then she's a horrible person.
Anonymous' overreaction is typical and wrong and all that, but not the guys' fault. The ONLY thing those guys were guilty of was making a joke that was arguably in bad taste. She blew it all up, and it exploded in her face. No, she doesn't deserve rape threats or death threats or whatever...But she's not the holy virgin, either. She's the cause it escalated.
Also, this sort of thing is exactly where we're going with society. People's views on privacy, anonimity, freedom of speech,... are changing rapidly, and not only for the better.
oh, whew, thanks, now I can tell her to kill herself in peace!
GasBandit
Staff member
Everybody else here is discussing the merits of what she did and what the two men at the conference did. You're the only one still screaming into the typhoon about the bestial inhuman force that is anonymous - mob mentality on steroids and cybernetics. You might as well blame the tiger that eats the man who jumps in his cage.
Necronic
Staff member
The one trick thing is that, if she did it privately, she never would have known if it was swept under the rug or not. Honestly I doubt it would have been.
Ed: reading that article....Jesus chris wtf is wrong with the tech community?
Ed2: in a weird turn of events Charlie just posted an article that criticizes Juilian Assange and Michael Moore as Rape Aologists. Will the cognitive dissonance be resolved? Stay tuned for another episode of "When Militant Ideocracies Colide!"
Ed: reading that article....Jesus chris wtf is wrong with the tech community?
Ed2: in a weird turn of events Charlie just posted an article that criticizes Juilian Assange and Michael Moore as Rape Aologists. Will the cognitive dissonance be resolved? Stay tuned for another episode of "When Militant Ideocracies Colide!"
Do you know who's either genius clickbaiting or just completely not self-aware of just how shitty this makes them look in the current climate in the tech industry? Complex.
http://www.complex.com/tech/2013/03/the-40-hottest-women-in-tech/
Ha ha ha, Jesus guys.
http://www.complex.com/tech/2013/03/the-40-hottest-women-in-tech/
Ha ha ha, Jesus guys.
GasBandit
Staff member
HAH.. Number 40:
Marina Orlova
Affiliation/ Company: HotForWords (YouTube channel)
Position: Show Host
The popular Internet sensation is now host of a bi-weekly radio show on Sirius Satellite Radio for Maxim.
Marina Orlova is as much part of the "tech" sector/industry as the girls that lay on cars at auto shows are part of the auto industry.
Guy didn't post his apology to Reddit, he posted it to Hackernews, where Adria Richards had also posted about the incident. He didn't call out the hordes and when things started ramping up, he tried to tamp them down to no avail.
There are two victims:
1) Guy gets fired for making silly "big" dongle joke
2) Adria Richards is a victim of her own whiteknightedness.
Yeah, it's a shame that 'The Internet", nebulous beast that it is, is now attacking poor Adria Richards, saying terrible things about her. But her gender plays as little role in it as the Ocean Marketing fiasco. "The Internet" is going to attack perceived injustice regardless of gender. The insults will cater towards potential hot button items, but that's the purpose of an insult. What's the point in insulting someone with a softball?
There are two victims:
1) Guy gets fired for making silly "big" dongle joke
2) Adria Richards is a victim of her own whiteknightedness.
Yeah, it's a shame that 'The Internet", nebulous beast that it is, is now attacking poor Adria Richards, saying terrible things about her. But her gender plays as little role in it as the Ocean Marketing fiasco. "The Internet" is going to attack perceived injustice regardless of gender. The insults will cater towards potential hot button items, but that's the purpose of an insult. What's the point in insulting someone with a softball?
that's a bingo
Well, as I've considered the subject over the last several days, I've altered my stance it ever-so-slightly.
I no longer think Adria is wrong to have conducted the public shaming. I don't think it was the best way to handle the situation, but I believe that she has a right to call people out when they're being idiots, and that if more people did that we'd have fewer problems with idiots mouthing off inappropriately in public spaces.
I still think both firings were overreaction to the situation, and the public response both ways is staggering in it's wrongheadedness.
But she should not have been punished for posting a picture and publicly telling everyone that this guy made her feel bad in a public area.
Further, she never once named the individual, so it's not even a full-on public shaming. His company might have overreacted when they "fired" him, but note that two people were in the picture from that company, and only one was fired, and that only after a discussion with the two. He identified himself when he publicly "thanked" her for getting him fired, but obviously he did something slightly different than the other guy when he talked to his bosses and/or HR department. It is likely that it's not just the comments and the picture that got him fired, but the conversations he had with his company afterwards about it that got him fired, as obviously the other guy didn't get fired, and the only difference between the two must have occurred in the company after the conference.
Anyway. Everyone got hurt. Hope they all land on their feet.
I no longer think Adria is wrong to have conducted the public shaming. I don't think it was the best way to handle the situation, but I believe that she has a right to call people out when they're being idiots, and that if more people did that we'd have fewer problems with idiots mouthing off inappropriately in public spaces.
I still think both firings were overreaction to the situation, and the public response both ways is staggering in it's wrongheadedness.
But she should not have been punished for posting a picture and publicly telling everyone that this guy made her feel bad in a public area.
Further, she never once named the individual, so it's not even a full-on public shaming. His company might have overreacted when they "fired" him, but note that two people were in the picture from that company, and only one was fired, and that only after a discussion with the two. He identified himself when he publicly "thanked" her for getting him fired, but obviously he did something slightly different than the other guy when he talked to his bosses and/or HR department. It is likely that it's not just the comments and the picture that got him fired, but the conversations he had with his company afterwards about it that got him fired, as obviously the other guy didn't get fired, and the only difference between the two must have occurred in the company after the conference.
Anyway. Everyone got hurt. Hope they all land on their feet.
actually I'm pretty sure there have been no / minimal consequences for all the people that told her to get raped and die.
A number of people had their twitter accounts suspended or deleted for abuse directed toward adria. States are looking at anti-bullying statutes that would cover this situation for legal prosecution, though in connection to other cases.
It's not perfect, but we've made some progress in the right direction and continue to do so.
But you're right, not everyone got hurt.
Though most of those you're concerned about got butthurt.
Does that count?
It's not perfect, but we've made some progress in the right direction and continue to do so.
But you're right, not everyone got hurt.
Though most of those you're concerned about got butthurt.
Does that count?
I guess I shouldn't be surprised when you post insults that make fun of and insult gay sex.
Is there a difference between someone saying "You should be raped." and being raped?
Important question.
are you implying that verbal / written abuse doesn't count?
Actually I always associated that with getting a wedgie, or getting your knickers in a twist.
I apologize if my use of the term "butthurt" offended you or anyone else, and I'll avoid using it in the future now that I know some associate it with negative gay stereotypes.
GasBandit
Staff member
Actually, it doesn't. That's just charlie being butthurt.
oh, let me just click that "know your meme" link and give a fuck about what it says... I'm going... to do that right... right now
That's about what I expect out of you. Faced with some evidence that you're wrong (again), you just run and hide.
GasBandit
Staff member
That's cause he's butthurt about being wrong about butthurt.
know your meme isn't evidence, it's a really stupid fucking site I wouldn't trust to tell me what day it is
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