'Sexy' stuff that just comes off as...
- Thread starter LittleSin
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But but but, crotch cleavage shots!? It's only fair!
This whole thing is basically becoming a looming elephant in the room with geek culture which in the past has been predominantly straight white men. As our culture becomes more diverse, the audience for this stuff is extending beyond just straight white males to gays, people of color, and women. Because of this, the inherent misogyny, homophobia and racism of geek culture is really being called into question.
Misogyny I can understand, but racism and homophobia? I can't say I run into that anywhere but online, which isn't exactly a shining beacon of morality to start with.
Also, guys in that "Power Girl-esque" costume do exist, Namor's been darting around in his Speedo for years and the current Thor villain is a buff Voldemort in a thong.
In the long run it's still a male-dominant industry, I think one of the guys on Comic Book Men put it best in saying (paraphrased) that even though Disney and Marvel have created these iconic characters, nobody wants to run around pretending to be Goofy or Pluto, they want to be Spider-Man or Wolverine.
As for more modest costumes on women, weren't a bunch of folks here fairly unimpressed with Wonder Woman's brief stint in a jacket and pants instead of a corset and hot pants?
Also, guys in that "Power Girl-esque" costume do exist, Namor's been darting around in his Speedo for years and the current Thor villain is a buff Voldemort in a thong.
In the long run it's still a male-dominant industry, I think one of the guys on Comic Book Men put it best in saying (paraphrased) that even though Disney and Marvel have created these iconic characters, nobody wants to run around pretending to be Goofy or Pluto, they want to be Spider-Man or Wolverine.
As for more modest costumes on women, weren't a bunch of folks here fairly unimpressed with Wonder Woman's brief stint in a jacket and pants instead of a corset and hot pants?
I was referring to geek culture. In comics it's mostly the misogyny, but in other aspects such as gaming, etc... homophobia and racism used to be very prominent. Things are changing, but very slowly. The reason these things are coming to light now is because when it was just straight white males consuming this culture, these issues were largely just part of "business as usual" thus why so many critical eyes have been cast on geek culture and the way it interacts with people outside of the usual paradigm.[DOUBLEPOST=1354533350][/DOUBLEPOST]Also, read the article listed on the previous page. It specifically addresses the Namor issue. Long story short. Namor has character motivation to dress like that, as does Emma Frost because it's part of their characters. Namor is vain, lives under water, and is nigh indestructible. He wouldn't see any reason to cover himself up and as he is also a notorious womanizer, he would also be likely to flaunt his body. As would Emma as she unapologetically uses her sexuality to get what she wants. It makes sense for her character. What's the character motivation for Wonder Woman to be wearing a thong bikini to fight crime?
The image is funny, but the catsuit AND the work books together makes it ridiculous. Well done.
That's a scene where someone basically trigger's Bruce Banner's Hulk transformation by (intentionally) pointing out how kinda "gay" the Hulk/Bruce Banner is. Mind you that this was in an Ultimate Universe comic, but it really does show you that at least one artist (because he drew it) and one writer (because he wrote it) were perfectly willing to believe that Bruce Banner, an adult scientist at the top of his field, wouldn't be able to deal with the fact that someone called him gay.
fade
Staff member
I'm not going to argue that there isn't a split in how women and men are portrayed in comics. That pretty much speaks for itself. My devil's advocate question is simply, "Why should they not pander to the fantasies of their primary audience?" It's good business, no matter how uncomfortable it makes you. No matter how unbalanced its portrayal of women and men.
You know what I would also find interesting? A survey of male comic readers who grew up with these books. Let's find out how many of them associated any of these characters with real humans. I know I didn't. This was a comic book drawing. I'm pretty sure even as a child I never expected women (or men) to look or act like that, any more than I expected to actually win the Dark Lord's ring from a fish-eating degraded hobbit by asking it a question that wasn't technically a riddle. Never saw either in real life, and knew the difference. I bring this up not to defend the lack of strong female physical portrayals in the comics, but to argue against the use of the word "misogyny". That's a very strong word, on a whole different level. It implies hatred. I don't think there's some hidden hatred here--just comic writers and artists who think of themselves as the primary consumers, and also like big boobs.
You know what I would also find interesting? A survey of male comic readers who grew up with these books. Let's find out how many of them associated any of these characters with real humans. I know I didn't. This was a comic book drawing. I'm pretty sure even as a child I never expected women (or men) to look or act like that, any more than I expected to actually win the Dark Lord's ring from a fish-eating degraded hobbit by asking it a question that wasn't technically a riddle. Never saw either in real life, and knew the difference. I bring this up not to defend the lack of strong female physical portrayals in the comics, but to argue against the use of the word "misogyny". That's a very strong word, on a whole different level. It implies hatred. I don't think there's some hidden hatred here--just comic writers and artists who think of themselves as the primary consumers, and also like big boobs.
If Banner was as well adjusted as you assume him to be there'd be no Hulk, just a radioactive scientist corpse.
EDIT:
Not to say that comics don't have a problem with how they portray women...
Also, Rictor...
The objectification of women is pretty much the textbook definition of misogyny.
The issue is that in the changing cultural view, it's actually BAD business to cling to the traditional portrayal of women in comics. Especially with comic book movies making more people interested in the medium. This alienates an entire group of potential customers.
Also http://www.unheardtaunts.com/wir/
So, you're saying that the broad comic book audience are such knuckle dragging neanderthals that they'd rather have boobs in their face than quality storytelling that can appeal to everyone?[DOUBLEPOST=1354553060][/DOUBLEPOST]Also, women make up a much larger portion of the population than you seem to think.
figmentPez
Staff member
They aren't keeping their audience. Comic book sales are continuing to shrink. They need to appeal to a broader audience, or they're going to go under.
I'm simply stating that I personally thing that the people who prefer their comic heroines they are now is larger than the audience that is suddenly turned on to comics because of the new media but decides against it because some chick has some massive cleavage in the contents.
fade
Staff member
I understand that this is a commonly used usage of the word misogyny, but it's that common usage that I'm objecting to--as DA again, to be clear. I haven't seen a strong case for the hatred implied by the dictionary definition of the word. Where's the hatred in objectification? I feel like I can take issue with objectification without resorting to calling the objectifiers "haters', because to me, that's extremely strong.
figmentPez
Staff member
And I'd argue that it's more than a black and white issue. This isn't just about if someone makes an immediate decision based on "boobs", but the level of commitment they have, and the ease of which they can spread their fandom to those around them. If new readers have hesitations about fully committing to comics because of the objectification of women, and feel like they have to hide their reading of comics (i.e. "I can't read this on the bus with that on the cover") then comics will have a harder time growing an audience and enticing new readers, as well as retaining existing readers. Even if it's not the only deciding factor, it is still an issue.
To objectify is to dehumanize, to dehumanize is to stop seeing someone as a person but a thing. Dehumanizing someone is one of the most hateful things that can be done and by encouraging it, it DOES harm women as a whole by portraying them as objects, rather than people.
Misogyny encompasses a larger concept than the base definition. Just as homophobia may literally mean the fear of gay people, but also encompasses the hatred of them as well.
Misogyny encompasses a larger concept than the base definition. Just as homophobia may literally mean the fear of gay people, but also encompasses the hatred of them as well.
fade
Staff member
sorry, I was rewording it, because I anticipated the wrong reaction would happen.[DOUBLEPOST=1354555519][/DOUBLEPOST]Again, this is for the fun of the argument, but do we hate Einstein? He's been reduced to nothing but his smarts. He's become an objectified symbol of intelligence, and nothing more. What do any of us know about him aside from his big brain?
Einstein hated wearing socks.
No, pretty sure objectification of women is a result of misogyny. I mean i could easily just objectify everyone, men and women, and not be a misogynist, but a misanthrope .[DOUBLEPOST=1354555704][/DOUBLEPOST]
But loved having his ex-lover and cousin wash them...
GasBandit
Staff member
You say that, but it's not as easy as it looks.
figmentPez
Staff member
Yes, we do hate Einstein if we reduce him to his intellectual achievements and nothing more. Generally that's not the case, though. We have a movie about him playing matchmaker. We get to see his goofy side in the famous photo of him sticking out his tongue. His struggles in early life and work as an under-appreciated file clerk are often mentioned alongside his mathematical success. You can argue that what we know of Einstein is more myth than man, but he's not dehumanized in media depictions. His depiction in pop culture is more than just math smarts. Unfortunately many women in comics are simply sex symbols, or solely exist to give men motivation.
Exactly.
figmentPez
Staff member
I'd say that all too often comic books reduce women to their sexuality, though not simply to physical features. Many characters dress, actions, speech, etc. are all aimed towards being "sexy". While I think many female characters have times when they have been written with depth and humanity, there are also far more cases when they're not used as anything more than "look how sexy she is fighting crime."
Compare that to nerds in general in pop culture, not Einstein in particular. Though there has been a recent trend of "nerd is the new cool", that wasn't always the case. It used to be that, more often than not, science types were mostly bit characters, useful but often two-dimensional. When they were more fleshed out, they were socially awkward and often their dialog was spouting a lot of facts and figures to show how intelligent they are. Reducing them to have intelligence as their defining trait is dehumanizing scientsts/nerds, and it is a form of hatred. There have always been exceptions where men can be scholars and more, but that doesn't change that when a cardboard cutout scientist is propped-up on-screen, that's a small sliver of nerd-hate. Do that often enough for a pattern to emerge, and those slivers add up. It's the same with the depiction of women as nothing but sex-objects, or mostly off-screen motivation for the male heroes.
I hear the word "hatred" thrown around here a lot. It must mean something different than what I currently think it does.
figmentPez
Staff member
Hate:
to dislike intensely or passionately; feel extreme aversion for or extreme hostility toward; detest: to hate the enemy; to hate bigotry.
To me portraying a whole class of people in such a fashion that they are consistently dehumanized is an act of extreme aversion and hostility.
Do you honestly think that the artists drawing these comic book women feel an extreme aversion or extreme hostility towards women?
figmentPez
Staff member
Some certainly do, at least an extreme aversion to the idea of women as actual people. Liking the fictional concept of what you think "women" should be is completely different from actually liking women. Have you read some of Frank Miller's notes on how he wants the women drawn in what he writes?
source
That's instructions on how to draw Vicki Vale in All Star Batman & Robin #1, reviewed here by Atop the Fourth Wall, where Linkara points out just why that scene is so sexist. Ms Vale has been reduced to someone to swoon over the male heroes, and for readers to lust after. I honestly think that shows an aversion to actual women.
Frank Miller is batshit insane, he's not a great example.
I'm really just arguing semantics here as I agree with your main points... I just feel that "hatred" and "hate" get thrown around far too much in things where they really aren't applicable.
When I think of hate I think of hating things like child murderers, rapists and genocide.
When I think of hate I think of hating things like child murderers, rapists and genocide.
fade
Staff member
Azurephoenix hit the point I was getting at. I had written something similar but deleted it. To be perfectly clear, I do not like the treatment of women by comic writers and artists, but I don't think it represents hatred. I think that requires a conscious intense dislike on the part of the artist, as in the case of sexism. I might accuse them of being socially irresponsible or childish or even stupid, or tell them that what they're doing may make women fell small or degraded, but I don't think we can assume dislike on the part of the artist enters into it.
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