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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-21411304


The Pope will resign at the end of the month for yet undisclosed reasons.
Is it because of his age or is there a scandal in the background?

Is this a first, in terms of popes? Stepping down? I'm sure it isn't, but I'd be curious to know. I'm sure we have some history buffs here that could answer that.

Huh. Surprising. I don't think it's age (unless dementia or something is rearing its head...And even so, look at the last one ), really. And scandals...While possible, doubt it.

I'd look more towards either the right wing wanting to replace him with a "younger model" (say, in his 60s) so there's a conservative Pope on the throne for a good long while, or a coup coming from African and/or Latin-American cardinals who want a new Pope - there's been a LOT of unease and unhappiness over this Pope's focus on Europe, Asia and northern America. We'll see, I guess?[DOUBLEPOST=1360581891][/DOUBLEPOST]

ThatNickGuy said:

Is this a first, in terms of popes? Stepping down? I'm sure it isn't, but I'd be curious to know. I'm sure we have some history buffs here that could answer that.

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No, it isn't - the last Pope to resign was in the 1920s somewhere. It's been a long time, the last two Popes stayed on even when faced with things like Parkinsons and such.

Per CNN, the last Pope to resign was Gregory XII in 1415.

Err, yes. Colour me misinformed. 1294, 1924, who keeps count, right?

The local TV station said 1926, so no worries.

Celestine V was the first and til the end of this month only pope to resign, in 1294.

A few more popes are listed for resigning their duties but not out of free will. Gregory XII as mentioned above did resign in 1415 but was already ousted from office in 1409.

Stuff I learn and read on a day at work with absolutely no motivation.

It's not a scandal. The papacy has endured things like you wouldn't imagine over the years and has the power and money to cover most anything up.If it's a scandal, it's a huge, world changing one.

Part of me wants to think this is to usher in a huge policy change that the current Pope wouldn't abide, like allowing marriage for priests or a softened stance on birth control. At least that would make sense.

AshburnerX said:

Part of me wants to think this is to usher in a huge policy change that the current Pope wouldn't abide, like allowing marriage for priests or a softened stance on birth control. At least that would make sense.

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I'm betting the exact opposite. In the Western world, the Pope's power is next to nothing and the Catholic Church is falling apart. In Sub-Sahara Africa, Eastern Asia and Southern America, the Catholic Church is still growing - but there's a lot of call for stricter stances on a lot of moral issues. We'll see....

Damn. There goes all the Nazi jokes. Although the fact that the pope was a Nazi is still amusing in the context of he was elected leader of the Catholic cult church.

Progressing dementia perhaps? It's ok to be pope if you're too old to stand but you need to have enough brain function to know that you are the pope.

Siska said:

Progressing dementia perhaps? It's ok to be pope if you're too old to stand but you need to have enough brain function to know that you are the pope.

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My uncle thought he was Pope.

Of course, he also thought he was Saint Jerome.

Siska said:

Progressing dementia perhaps? It's ok to be pope if you're too old to stand but you need to have enough brain function to know that you are the pope.

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John Paul II couldn't stand or even move pretty much at the end but still remained pope til they couldn't resurrect him anymore...
Not sure if he still knew who he was or what to do.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2013/02/popel-benedict-xvi-resigning/61985/

This is the first time a Pope has voluntarily resigned in nearly 6 centuries, since 1415. Say what you will about the man, but this is certainly big news.

Covar said:

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2013/02/popel-benedict-xvi-resigning/61985/

This is the first time a Pope has voluntarily resigned in nearly 6 centuries, since 1415. Say what you will about the man, but this is certainly big news.

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https://www.halforums.com/threads/the-pope-resigns.29026/

I'm gonna merge them and move them all into this sub.

I didn't check General for a political and religious post. Sue me!

In related news its due to his health. You can find his quote on it in other articles.

No worries.

Dave said:

Damn. There goes all the Nazi jokes. Although the fact that the pope was a Nazi is still amusing in the context of he was elected leader of the Catholic cult church.

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All German middle class teenagers were forced/coerced into the Hitler Youth.

sixpackshaker said:

All German middle class teenagers were forced/coerced into the Hitler Youth.

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Oh, well that makes it okay then...

sixpackshaker said:

All German middle class teenagers were forced/coerced into the Hitler Youth.

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Strange. There were people who resisted joining the Hitler Youth. There were enough that there were camps for them. I'd like to think that the person who leads a religious organization would have the strength of spirit and conviction that they wouldn't have capitulated to save themselves from trouble. Very Christ-like.

I don't know a ton about it to be honest, but I can't honestly even begin to understand what it would be like to be a kid in Hitler's Germany so I don't think thats the biggest thing I would hold against this guy.

Dave said:

Strange. There were people who resisted joining the Hitler Youth. There were enough that there were camps for them. I'd like to think that the person who leads a religious organization would have the strength of spirit and conviction that they wouldn't have capitulated to save themselves from trouble. Very Christ-like.

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So you're judging a 14 year old for having his name put on the role of an organization that forced membership, and then proceeded to not attend the meetings, as if he was a willing member and participant? And that having his name on a list is such a critical moral failing that it should bar him from any promient religious position even 50+ years later?

Espy said:

I don't know a ton about it to be honest, but I can't honestly even begin to understand what it would be like to be a kid in Hitler's Germany so I don't think thats the biggest thing I would hold against this guy.

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I agree. I was more talking about losing the jokes when it got all serious-like. I probably would have gone along as well, but then again I am not the one who claims to be speaking for God.

Reverent-one said:

So you're judging a 14 year old for having his name put on the role of an organization that forced membership, and then proceeded to not attend the meetings, as if he was a willing member and participant? And that having his name on a list is such a critical moral failing that it should bar him from any promient religious position even 50+ years later?

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Depending on how much you believe he didn't do it -willinginly-

Dave said:

I agree. I was more talking about losing the jokes when it got all serious-like. I probably would have gone along as well, but then again I am not the one who claims to be speaking for God.

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Which is what I think is the far bigger problem.

I think we agree

Well you know how it is for Christians, once you commit anything sinful you are damned for all eternity with no way to atone.

Dave said:

I agree. I was more talking about losing the jokes when it got all serious-like. I probably would have gone along as well, but then again I am not the one who claims to be speaking for God.

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Well, he wasn't born pope.

Gilgamesh said:

Depending on how much you believe he didn't do it -willinginly-

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They say he deserted, but this was in May of 1945. And he wasn't the only one. By that time, people were leaving in droves. So yet another action based on self-preservation. Seems pretty selfish.[DOUBLEPOST=1360598511][/DOUBLEPOST]

Covar said:

Well you know how it is for Christians, once you commit anything sinful you are damned for all eternity with no way to atone.

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Or if your dad fucked up. Sins of the father and all that.[DOUBLEPOST=1360598619][/DOUBLEPOST]By the way, I could hardly care less. I think the whole Catholic church is messed up beyond belief. So I'm more yanking chains than anything. Take what I say with a grain of salt. Take it from Lot's wife's arm.

Gilgamesh said:

Depending on how much you believe he didn't do it -willinginly-

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Given the lack of any hard evidence I've seen that he did it willingly, and reports from people who knew their family that they were very anti-nazi, I see no reason for anyone who's not irrationally anti-religion/catholic to not believe that.

Reverent-one said:

Given the lack of any hard evidence I've seen that he did it willingly, and reports from people who knew their family that they were very anti-nazi, I see no reason for anyone who's not irrationally anti-religion/catholic to not believe that.

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You're right, the Catholic Church would never cover anything up.

The asshole in me wants to point and laugh.

The bigger man in me wants to shrug and move on.

The forumite in me just wants to sit back and roast marshmallows in the flame war.

Gilgamesh said:

You're right, the Catholic Church would never cover anything up.

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So in lieu of any actual evidence to support your stance, you're basing your opinion on the fact that it's pontentially possible for Catholic Chruch to cover it up? That's tinfoil hat territory, since you can literally support just about any claim about him with that argument.

Just saying that back in Nazi Germany the Hitler youth was like being a boy scout. I don't really blame anyone for joining that.

Tress said:

Oh, well that makes it okay then...

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Which part? the state forcing the 13yo to join or watch his family go to a prison camp?

Reverent-one said:

So in lieu of any actual evidence to support your stance, you're basing your opinion on the fact that it's pontentially possible for Catholic Chruch to cover it up? That's tinfoil hat territory, since you can literally support just about any claim about him with that argument.

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Yep, it's a personal hatred for Religion in general, moreso the Catholic Church that fuels any bias against believing any kind of front that is put up on a suspicious situation.

I'm just glad there's a modern precedent for resigning for health reasons now for the Pope. Hopefully from now on this is the norm (resigning when still competent) rather than staying on past your ability to do the job.

Also, watch for nothing to come out of Benedict's mouth, be published, etc, ever again (possibly just until his death). Similar to how former Prime Ministers (or other heads of state) that really retire, how they're rarely if ever heard from again. There are exceptions of course (many in fact) but that is much more normal for them to be quiet than to have one who actively campaigns. Better for the successors and the countries/organizations for them to keep their mouths shut.

I'm just hoping his successor is a little more progressive.

Tress said:

I'm just hoping his successor is a little more progressive.

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To be more progressive than Ratzinger isn't that hard to be honest. The man was a hardliner's hardliner.

This thread took a weird turn.

I'm an atheist that didn't like the catholic church as an organization, but I don't see anything unusual about a priest, reverend, pope, etc having a less than perfect past. They weren't born priests, they chose that later in life.

There's plenty of legitimate reasons not to like the pope without making up new ones. But that said, nazi jokes are pretty low hanging fruit.

Ravenpoe said:

But that said, nazi jokes are pretty low hanging fruit.

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I know, but sometimes low-hanging fruit is the best fruit.

blotsfan said:

Just saying that back in Nazi Germany the Hitler youth was like being a boy scout. I don't really blame anyone for joining that.

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As a former scout, I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you did not just compare scouting to an ideologically driven scouting-like activity with the intended goal of creating large numbers of candidates for party positions and the Wehrmacht.

I will miss The Emperor and look forward to Darth Vader taking over.

North_Ranger said:

The forumite in me just wants to sit back and roast marshmallows in the flame war.

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Got some smores all ready to go, bro! Let's roast these bastards!

Fuck the pope. He was a shitty, backwards pale imitation of the man he replaced. I'm glad he's stepping down and I hope it's over some the very heinous shit he himself had helped cover up that got him elected to the papacy in the first place. His reinstitution of some of the bullshit anti-semetic nonsense the Catholic church was so good at for a thousand years that they had managed to begin to shed over the last hundred years (barring complacency with the fascists in WW2).

I was not a fan of new pope.

If the next Pope is an Italian with a name based off of Peter... I'm headed for the hills.

Yeah no kidding.

On a less inflammatory note

http://www.businessinsider.com/meet-the-man-who-will-be-the-next-pope-2012-4?op=1

I'm rooting for the hometown boy, mostly because I think an African pope would be fucking terrifying considering just how completely fucked up the Catholic church is in Africa.

Don't get your hopes up. The only thing worse (in the eyes of the cardinals) than an European Pope would be an American one.

No one wants an American pope. A Canadian pope though?

Yeah that would be fucking weird.

Just started watching "The Pope must die".

Dear Hollywood,

Pope dies, Cardinals gather, voice of God declares "John Smith, Big City uSA". Now agnostic, corporate business man type played by that Comic actor finds himself the Pope and leader of the entire church. Hilarity ensues as he learns what it means to be a good and kind person.

You're welcome

Ravenpoe said:

I'm an atheist that didn't like the catholic church as an organization, but I don't see anything unusual about a priest, reverend, pope, etc having a less than perfect past. They weren't born priests, they chose that later in life.

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Thats because you haven't opened your eyes man! Git your Moulder on!

Frank said:

No one wants an American pope. A Canadian pope though?

Yeah that would be fucking weird.

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If he turned communion into tiny pancakes and maple syrup I'd be down.

Reverent-one said:

So you're judging a 14 year old for having his name put on the role of an organization that forced membership, and then proceeded to not attend the meetings, as if he was a willing member and participant? And that having his name on a list is such a critical moral failing that it should bar him from any promient religious position even 50+ years later?

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^this guy.

There's plenty of other reasons to not like the pope, I'm sure.

Lets at least hope the new guy brings back limbo back into continuity, taking it out just added too many plot-holes to the story. Plus I don't like how it killed off Earth-2 John the Fisherman.

But in all seriousness, lets hope the new guy doesn't say condoms cause Aids.

phil said:

^this guy.

There's plenty of other reasons to not like the pope, I'm sure.

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Like the personal reason that I quit attending church after he was elected. He was basically the person in the Vatican that ran the cover up of the sex abuse scandals.

Time for an Australian Pope. What we need is Pope Jacko.

Necronic said:

Time for an Australian Pope. What we need is Pope Jacko.

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I thought he would be "Bruce I"

Chances are the new pope will be black or hispanic. Then you can watch the consternation of our southern catholics with glee.

Dave said:

Chances are the new pope will be black or hispanic. Then you can watch the consternation of our southern catholics with glee.

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Southern Catholics are Hispanic.

I'm hoping for the surprise of Pope Yung or Pope Ling or some such No Asian popes so far!

sixpackshaker said:

Southern Catholics are Hispanic.

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This. Most White Christians in the South come in other flavors.

sixpackshaker said:

Southern Catholics are Hispanic.

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Which south? Are we talking south-east, or southern?

Both.

I guess I just don't understand the demographics of Southern religions in the US. Learn something new every day, I guess.

There is not many Catholics in the South to start with, and most of the growth of the Catholic Church in the South comes from immigration. So yes there are still areas where the Irish, Czech, and Polish Southerners (which are a minority in their own right) will still out number Hispanics, but it will not be for much longer.

Bubble181 said:

I'm hoping for the surprise of Pope Yung or Pope Ling or some such No Asian popes so far!

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That'd be kinda awesome if it came out of one of the "secret" cardinals that either Benedict or JP2 made in mainland China where it's illegal to be Catholic. They have a "state-approved" Catholicism there, but that's not the same thing.

Dave said:

I guess I just don't understand the demographics of Southern religions in the US. Learn something new every day, I guess.

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Yeah, the people you were trying to cast aspersions on are various flavors of protestant. You know.. WASP? Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans and Presbyterians mostly. In the southern US, Catholicism is vastly, overwhelmingly Hispanic.

Covar said:

Well you know how it is for Christians, once you commit anything sinful you are damned for all eternity with no way to atone.

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...

Seriously?

jwhouk said:

...

Seriously?

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He meant unless you can pay your way into heaven.

I...

There are not enough facepalm smileys in the world to describe this.

jwhouk said:

...

Seriously?

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Uh, no, I think he was being blatantly sarcastic.

I was all like:
JW was all like:
MD was all like:

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you THE NEXT POPE

!

jwhouk said:

...

Seriously?

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In case it's not obvious enough yet: He's joking.

Hey!
Hey jwhouk!
Hey!
I dunno if.. like, somebody told you yet, or something...
But Covar?
You know, that Covar guy.
Anyway, Covar?
He was joking.
Sarcasm they call it.
So, just wanted to make sure that'd been communicated to you.
Alright, I gotta go, I got a thing.

GasBandit said:

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you THE NEXT POPE

!

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Haha holy shit. "Jesus Christ is my nigga"

Chippy said:

Haha holy shit. "Jesus Christ is my nigga"

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I think I heard your avatar say that just now.

So I guess this makes him ex-Benedict?

In a weird way what Benedict did may end up being one of the most progressive moves made by a Pope in a LONG time. Popes usually come into power in their 70s, and will probably continue working into their late 80s or 90s. But the second half of that time they are going through decreased physical and mental capacities, so their overall power and ability to operate is diminished, arguably ceding a lot of control to the College of Cardinals in the process.

By setting a precedent for resignation instead of dying in office he may have significantly strengthened the Papacy. This could be a really good thing. If popes resign when they get too old to do their job we may end up with far more activist Popes.

The papacy won't be strengthened until the pope:

• Not only acknowledges priest child abuse and does something about it instead of simply giving empty platitudes and then covering shit up.
• Recognizes and admits that condoms are a major way to cut back on the spread of HIV and other STDs in third-world countries.
• Takes on the church's anti-homosexual stance and acknowledges that homosexuals are just as human as the rest of us.
• Starts allowing women to serve in the church's hierarchy instead of just shoving them off as nuns.

Until the church becomes more progressive, they will continue to be old and irrelevant.

Dave said:

The papacy won't be strengthened until the pope:

• Not only acknowledges priest child abuse and does something about it instead of simply giving empty platitudes and then covering shit up.
• Recognizes and admits that condoms are a major way to cut back on the spread of HIV and other STDs in third-world countries.
• Takes on the church's anti-homosexual stance and acknowledges that homosexuals are just as human as the rest of us.
• Starts allowing women to serve in the church's hierarchy instead of just shoving them off as nuns.

Until the church becomes more progressive, they will continue to be old and irrelevant.

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According to you. There are just as many, of not more, voices cryin that the Church lost its power and place with the Vatican Concily and, if anything, should be more conservative in regards to sex.
Remember: the Pope (the last one, in fact, but this one hasn't reversed it) has stated that condoms can be useful against HIV and other STDs...In the case of rape - since any other sex can only be with your partner in marriage. If we all were actually monogamous, STDs would die out (as an STD. You could, of course, still get herpes from a kiss or HIV from a needle, but you can get the flu in the same way). The African church was up in arms about it and tries to keep it quiet; there're plenty of cardinals who'd gladly take that back and say a condom's a Devilish item in and of itself.

Anyway, this Pope was smart, but not a camera's man. Let's hope the next one isn't a great media figure with shit for brains, or things will get ugly fast.

Bubble181 said:

According to you.

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According to the world and those who are past the year 1352.

The world continues to evolve and if the catholic church doesn't also, they'll go the way of the dinosaur. Frankly, I hope that's what happens, but there are countless millions of people who would be harmed in the process. The catholic church has been a particularly destructive force in Africa. They can be held accountable for millions of HIV infected people due to their homophobic and anti-science stances. The catholic church has been a force of evil in the world.

Fry and Hitchens? Their opponents were in for an absolute beating. I'd never seen that.

Frank said:

Fry and Hitchens? Their opponents were in for an absolute beating. I'd never seen that.

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In the history of the Intelligence Squared debate, there has never been a greater swing of opinion in the audience.

Before the debate (Is the Catholic Church a force for Good in the World?):

For: 678
Against: 1102
Don't Know: 346

After the debate:

For: 268
Against: 1876
Don't Know: 34

The Bishop, particularly, was absolutely terrible.

My personal view on religion, for the most part, having grown up Catholic in a very heavy Catholic area is that you shouldn't expect a religion to conform to what you want, you should choose your religion based on what you believe instead. My main problem with Catholicism is that most American Catholics, even ones who claim to be very devout, are "bad Catholics", because they don't follow the religion they are "supposed to follow". I long ago gave up on religion, but honestly, I wish people would do more research on the things they supposedly follow instead of accepting it blindly. Honestly I think it's only a matter of time before the American Catholic Church schisms away from the Vatican, because as a whole, our Church system is more focused on compassion than condemnation (as can be seen by the issues American Nuns are having with said Vatican as an example).

Dave said:

In the history of the Intelligence Squared debate, there has never been a greater swing of opinion in the audience.

Before the debate (Is the Catholic Church a force for Good in the World?):

For: 678
Against: 1102
Don't Know: 346

After the debate:

For: 268
Against: 1876
Don't Know: 34

The Bishop, particularly, was absolutely terrible.

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Ugh, I'm getting to question part where the audience asks questions to the panel. I'm sick of the politician woman's essays. Doesn't matter what the question is, she has an unrelated essay to read.

Dave said:

According to the world and those who are past the year 1352.

The world continues to evolve and if the catholic church doesn't also, they'll go the way of the dinosaur. Frankly, I hope that's what happens, but there are countless millions of people who would be harmed in the process. The catholic church has been a particularly destructive force in Africa. They can be held accountable for millions of HIV infected people due to their homophobic and anti-science stances. The catholic church has been a force of evil in the world.

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And I'll reiterate what I said. For the record, I'm a deist agnostic and as far as I'm concerned, the world would probably be a better place without the Holy Roman Church.
However, you're still looking at it from a far too culturocentric point of view. For the HRC to survive and be of any impact in the Western world, she'd have to become far more modern and open.

No matter what the Church suddenly starts saying under Lesbian Pope Anya the First (or whomever ), Western Europe isn't suddenly going to desecularize. The USA and Canada aren't going to suddenly see a shift from Protestantism to Catholicism. If the HRC wants to grow, there're only so many markets left.
For Southern America, the focus needs to be, even more than now, on liberation, freedom through suffering, hard work and pain will be rewarded in the afterlife.
For Asia and Africa, the way forward is to be a counterweight to Islamic fundamentalism. And while being a counter for extermism by being modern and moderate might sound appealing to us, it's not what works. Unlettered, uneducated peasants deliberately kept poor; a populace exploited by corporations and living in practical slavery; hunger, widespread disease still astoundingly high infant death; corrupt officials in countries without identity other than "oppressor", behold the perfect birthing place for religious zealots and fundamentalists.
The way forward as supported by the vast majority of cardinals and bishops in Africa is by radicalising; not by being wishy-washy sort-of-modern but not quite. Convincing people who are still, very often, living in tribal settings and ruled by chieftains; with even modern villages often having medicine men and a vast majority of the people believing these to be more effective than modern medicine, is not going to happen by a Catholic-Church-turned-Western-values-spreader. It can't. You can't fight every superstition and prejudice all at once, and think you'll get a lot of converts at the same time. Islamic fundamentalist missionaries have a more rousing message, and are far more successful as a result.

I do want to reiterate what I've said before in other places: I do not think religion in general, or christianity (or Catholicism) in specific, is bad, wrong, or anything. People have a right and a freedom to religion. Religious fundamentalism I abhor.

/tinfoil hat

Well, the last pope to show outward signs of progression and opening up lasted a full 33 days...

evilmike said:

Spoiler: Now in gif form

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/moar tinfoilhat

Just Me said:

/moar tinfoilhat

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you may want to take that foil off your head during a thunderstorm, just sayin'

sixpackshaker said:

you may want to take that foil off your head during a thunderstorm, just sayin'

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Do not take me for some conjuror of cheap tricks!

Just Me said:

Do not take me for some conjuror of cheap tricks!

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Well played, Mr. DJ, well played!

Man, give that drummer a goatee, and he would look like me at that age.

The next pope:

You know, I bet Cat-tholicism could really catch on.

MindDetective said:

You know, I bet Cat-tholicism could really catch on.

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I can haz indulgences? I baked you a host... but I eated it.

I'm holding out hope Father Guido Sarducci gets the nod.

Very interesting. The Pope said today that he is resigning because of "declining spiritual and physical strength". Now, I understand the physical part, but does anyone else think the "spiritual" strength is an interesting admission? Is the current Pope possibly losing his faith in the church?

Dave said:

Very interesting. The Pope said today that he is resigning because of "declining spiritual and physical strength". Now, I understand the physical part, but does anyone else think the "spiritual" strength is an interesting admission? Is the current Pope possibly losing his faith in the church?

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If he was then he instantly became more relevant to the younger generations.

In his final homily he chastised the church and how the priests themselves conducting politics are damaging the church. I think that pretty much answers that question.

Dave said:

In his final homily he chastised the church and how the priests themselves conducting politics are damaging the church. I think that pretty much answers that question.

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Now that's a load of bull.

Dave said:

Very interesting. The Pope said today that he is resigning because of "declining spiritual and physical strength". Now, I understand the physical part, but does anyone else think the "spiritual" strength is an interesting admission? Is the current Pope possibly losing his faith in the church?

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No one hates jews enough for his taste.

Dave said:

In his final homily he chastised the church and how the priests themselves conducting politics are damaging the church. I think that pretty much answers that question.

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Really???

Espy said:

Really???

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21451090

In his homily, he implicitly criticised recent infighting among clerics inside the Vatican.

He said the face of the Church had been marred by divisions and rivalry among the clergy, reports the BBC's David Willey, who was at the service.

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Hmm. Well thats good. I can think of SEVERAL things he should probably call out that are far more important but... it's something? I guess?

Espy said:

Hmm. Well thats good. I can think of SEVERAL things he should probably call out that are far more important but... it's something? I guess?

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Considering that many of those other things are probably the things they're infighting about....

This made me laugh far harder than it should have:

Bubble181 said:

Considering that many of those other things are probably the things they're infighting about....

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I dunno... they seemed to think last year that the most important thing they could do, as a church (at least for the US arm of the church) was to go back to performing more of the service in the original Latin.

Gared said:

I dunno... they seemed to think last year that the most important thing they could do, as a church (at least for the US arm of the church) was to go back to performing more of the service in the original Latin.

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No, they used a better interpretation of the Latin. So all the call and response stuff sounds funny after my lifetime's worth of hearing it one way.

sixpackshaker said:

No, they used a better interpretation of the Latin. So all the call and response stuff sounds funny after my lifetime's worth of hearing it one way.

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This! so much this.

sixpackshaker said:

No, they used a better interpretation of the Latin. So all the call and response stuff sounds funny after my lifetime's worth of hearing it one way.

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Ahh... that's what it was. All I knew was what I heard on the radio, I haven't actually attended mass in... too many years to remember.

Gared said:

Ahh... that's what it was. All I knew was what I heard on the radio, I haven't actually attended mass in... too many years to remember.

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I still go when I visit my parents.

The only time my parents set foot in a church is for a wedding or a funeral. They've been unhappy with the church ever since one of their parish priests refused to provide a character witness for their being named godparents for one of their friend's babies. The priest refused because he "could not, in good conscience, testify that two people were good Catholics when they didn't attend church every Sunday" no matter the fact that, while it was true that they didn't go every Sunday, they did attend Christmas mass, Easter mass, Palm Sunday, Ash Wednesday, Good Friday, and a host of other church holidays; and they'd had me enrolled in Sunday school for years, I'd gone through First Communion, Confirmation (at that specific church, no less), Baccalaureate Mass, and whatever other rites we had; and that they'd been involved in church fundraising, communal meals, etc. for years and years, all at that specific church. And, while it's kind of petty to turn your back on an entire church because of one priest, the rest of the chain of command backed that priest, regardless of the recommendations of other priests in the diocese (we had a rotating priest situation because we were a really small town, and we'd moved from a larger town where we'd had a different priest who was willing to testify to their good standing in the church). That and, you know, the whole sex abuse scandal.

Dave said:

Interesting article about the dysfunction within the church.

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Quite fascinating. If anything, it reinforces the cardinal rule of bureaucracy: It tries to continue to exist. Even if the guy at the top is trying to reform, the bureaucracy itself will continually push back. It's really hard to do.

Dave said:

In his final homily he chastised the church and how the priests themselves conducting politics are damaging the church. I think that pretty much answers that question.

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"Screw you guys, I'm going home."

bhamv3 said:

"Screw you guys, I'm going home."

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He pretty much IS home. He won't leave the Vatican. Why? He doesn't know if he's able to be prosecuted for his part in the child abuse scandals. He even wrote to the Italian president saying that as a former pope he's got diplomatic immunity. You can't make this stuff up.

He doesn't get diplomatic immunity unless the countries he visits agree to it. He has to present his credentials to the host government and hope they accept it. If not, he's declared persona non gratis and forced to leave the country.

So yeah... he's not leaving Vatican City unless he becomes an official ambassador or something.

Does anyone wonder how many hundreds of years it will be before a pope allows priests/cardinals/wizards to marry? I'm guessing 3.

Yoshimickster said:

Does anyone wonder how many hundreds of years it will be before a pope allows priests/cardinals/wizards to marry? I'm guessing 3.

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The issue is brought up more often than you might think. There was a Brother* from my hometown who argued before the Senate that priests should be allowed to marry and women should be allowed to be priests just a few years ago. There are significant groups within the clergy that support these reforms.

*I think. Possibly he was a Father.

There aren't Catholic priestesses? That shit ain't right. Not as bad as the Catholic church covering up years of pedophilia, but its up there.

Speaking of pedophilia, would the allowing of priests to marriage theoretically stop molestation in the church?

Yoshimickster said:

Speaking of pedophilia, would the allowing of priests to marriage theoretically stop molestation in the church?

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Some people make this argument but I mean... It's not like there aren't married paedophiles. :\ It's such a sad issue. I mean, it's easy to crack jokes and lob cynical criticism but obviously these people are succumbing to an awful lust, not getting the help they need to cope with that and destroying lives of children and their families, hell, communities, in the process. The whole thing makes me feel awful.

More specifically about marriage solving molestation, I think that the pragmatic argument is: obviously not. I think if they wanted to have sexual relationships with women/men they could easily find consenting partners: it's not like there isn't a history of cardinals and popes and priests of every stripe having mistresses and illegitimate children. So, I think, no, the molestation is probably not simply a sexual urge that is otherwise suppressed and could be resolved by marriage. But, maybe I am wrong. I am not speaking from any sort of research.

"Sunlight is the best disinfectant" might be a cliché, but I believe it. That's the best I hope for right now, I guess. Transparency and accountability. They should be brought before a court, not hidden, not transferred.

Yoshimickster said:

There aren't Catholic priestesses? That shit ain't right. Not as bad as the Catholic church covering up years of pedophilia, but its up there.

Speaking of pedophilia, would the allowing of priests to marriage theoretically stop molestation in the church?

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That was a stand up routine I heard 10 years ago or so. But yeah.. No female catholic priests. And they're not the only ones. There are actually a number of faiths which don't allow females to become ordained. Orthodox Jews have this stick in their craw as well, though all the other denominations of Judaism allow female rabbis.

Chad Sexington said:

*I think. Possibly he was a Father.

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I've always wondered... how do you make that destinction? When does a frater become a pater?

North_Ranger said:

I've always wondered... how do you make that destinction? When does a frater become a pater?

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They don't. You're one or the other, the distinction is their role in the clergy. A Brother usually has a 'teaching' role within the Church: maybe as a professor in a theological college, maybe educating communities. They often take vows of poverty, and live in a rectory with other Brothers of same order (I'm most familiar with Franciscans). They also try to be active with people, going over for dinners, sharing time, listening, enjoying the company of people (usually Catholics, obviously, but any I've met have happily come over and debated atheism with me over wine )

Fathers are priests, basically. They have a leadership role, passing on the teachings of Christ and delivering mass, performing the Eucharist, etc. Of course they too are active in the community, but in a different way. And I've never had any over for dinner.

Huh. Now I know. Plus, I think I've met one of those Brothers myself. Older guy, taught an introductory course on Celtic mythology in the college where I studied during my foreign exchange year. Bit of a loonie (such as suggesting that dragons come from a racial memory of dinosaurs), but still an interesting fellow.

North_Ranger said:

Bit of a loonie (such as suggesting that dragons come from a racial memory of dinosaurs), but still an interesting fellow.

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Hah! Excellent. ..."bit" of a loon might be a generous interpretation

I know a Brother, 86, who starts off every first-year course with new students hoping to become priests by referring to God as "Her", just so, in his words "They think I'm a crazy radical. Keeps them on their toes."

HA! That's just awesome!

And I'll keep using the "bit". He was still a nice guy, and knew his stuff. Heck, he even took us on a field trip to see Celtic ruins near the city, and didn't mind silly questions from a bunch of foreign students (who formed the majority of his class).

Yoshimickster said:

Speaking of pedophilia, would the allowing of priests to marriage theoretically stop molestation in the church?

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I don't think being a member of the clergy (and the accompanying vows of celibacy) makes one into a pedophile. Rather, I think pedophiles are attracted to the clergy in large numbers because it provides easier access to victims while simultaneously providing some cover/protection.

North_Ranger said:

Huh. Now I know. Plus, I think I've met one of those Brothers myself. Older guy, taught an introductory course on Celtic mythology in the college where I studied during my foreign exchange year. Bit of a loonie (such as suggesting that dragons come from a racial memory of dinosaurs), but still an interesting fellow.

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Dragon Slayers were the first Paleontologists...[DOUBLEPOST=1361285340][/DOUBLEPOST]

Tress said:

I don't think being a member of the clergy (and the accompanying vows of celibacy) makes one into a pedophile. Rather, I think pedophiles are attracted to the clergy in large numbers because it provides easier access to victims while simultaneously providing some cover/protection.

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There are still a lower ratio of pedophiles in the church than there is in the general population. The problem was the hush money and then shuffling the pedos off to another parish, to find more victims.

Chad Sexington said:

"Sunlight is the best disinfectant" might be a cliché, but I believe it. That's the best I hope for right now, I guess. Transparency and accountability. They should be brought before a court, not hidden, not transferred.

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I agree with this. There's no fixing the problem without bringing it all out in the light. The only way allowing married priests helps this issue is if it brings in a greater number of new priests who wouldn't otherwise be willing to serve as clergy. Even that might not make much of a difference, depending on why there was such cover-ups in the first place. If the system is just too corrupt, then it's just going to self perpetuate until it collapses. If, however, the cover-ups were out of fear more than corruption (i.e. we're too short on priests as it is, we can't have this thinning our ranks), then increased numbers might help, but even then I doubt it. Personally I don't think there's much hope for the Roman Catholic Church to turn things around.

Tress said:

I don't think being a member of the clergy (and the accompanying vows of celibacy) makes one into a pedophile. Rather, I think pedophiles are attracted to the clergy in large numbers because it provides easier access to victims while simultaneously providing some cover/protection.

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I'm sure there've been pedophiles who became membvers of clergy for this reason, but I doubt it.

I think that, fort a large part, people are thinking too much in absolutes about sexuality still. Among soldiers, holed up in a fortress/the lines/Vietnam camps, sailors on long voyages from home, etc, homosexual behavior was (and is) far more prevalent than amongst the general population. Your reasoning would be: gay people join the army because that gives them more access to well-trained guys.
I think it's the other way around: after months/years of frustration, you lower your sights. If you're at sea for 6 months with no women around, the guy next to you might start to look a bit more appealing. After years in a church withn o possibility of release, that 12 year old choirboy may start to look a bit better.

Mind you that I'm not equating homosexuality and pedophilia, I'm just drawing a comparison. Also, it's not because you fucked the guy next to you in the trenches that you've suddenly been gay your whole life and hiding it, though I personally believe nobody's 100% straight or gay... In the same vein, I don't think these people would have been pedophiles no matter what - in normal life, or if sex/marriage was allowed to priests, they may have been perfectly happy with a woman (or man, as the case may be). Circumstances can have a serious impact.

I do not, in any way, think this makes what they did any less bad or anything - I'd expect anyone to be able to control their baser urges, priests most of all. You can't be handing out moral guidance, expect people not to stray, if you can't even control your own basest desires. Circumstances may have played a role, they still should have been able to restrain themselves.

I'm firmly convinced that allowing marriage would reduce the number of pedophile priests. You'd probably still get one occasionally, just like there are pedophiles in the general population, but hopefully, less.

Bubble181 said:

\I'm firmly convinced that allowing marriage would reduce the number of pedophile priests. You'd probably still get one occasionally, just like there are pedophiles in the general population, but hopefully, less.

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Yeah, no. That's not how pedophiles work at all.

Tress said:

Yeah, no. That's not how pedophiles work at all.

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Yeah, I'm pretty sure I could go my whole life without sex and not want to molest any kids.

Tress said:

Yeah, no. That's not how pedophiles work at all.

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It isn't how homosexuality works, either. Or bestiality. But there are more homosexual contacts in situations where heterosexual contact is not available, and there are more interspecies sexual contacts when no human sexual contact is possible.
I'm not saying pedophilia only happens because the guy can't get a girl. Or even that most pedophiles are like that. Or anything. I'm saying that some of these pedophile priests might, either, have been able to suppress that specific urge, or might not have felt the urge strong enought o even register in the first place.

Let's make the statement stronger and get even more people to disagree with me, because hey, shitstorms are fun. I'm firmly of the belief that pedosexuality, just like homosexuality, just like furriness, just like bestiality, or asexuality, or heterosexuality, or half-a-dozen other sexual preferences, is not a binary thing, but a sliding scale. I'm also of the belief that the preference is not necessarily something you can do about. People have been tryingto "convert" homosexuals since long before either of us was born. Some gay people marry and have children and so on to push back their own urges and to deny themselves. Doesn't make them any more or less homosexual.
The reason why pedosexuality or bestiality are not acceptable, whereas, say, "interracial" coupling (by which I mean "people of seemingly different ethnicity) or homosexuality are acceptable, to me, is a matter of informed consent. A child, or animal, or some of the more heavily mentally handicapped, are not capable of consenting, and hence, cannot enter into a balanced sexual relationship. Any sexual relationship is, therefore, abuse at the very least.
This is very important. A lot of people are afraid of the slippery slope: first we allowed people to marry outside their social status, then skin colour, then... now it's outside of the "proper" gender roles, next up children and after that animals and so on and so on. I'm of the opinion that there is no such slippery slope because, to me, the line is clear and well-drawn (with the possible exception of mentally handicapped: I have some issues but I'm capable of consent, whereas some others have a comparative mental age of 1 or 2 - they're clearly incapable...But where do you draw that line?): honest, open, freely given and informed consent by all partners? That's a "fair" relationship that can work (there are obviously still a lot of other factors at work; you know full well I'm not asserting there's no abuse in such a relationship or that such relationships are always good or balanced. Very far from it). One partner who can't give consent? Stay the fuck away from him/her/it/... .
In this sense, I'm convinced a pedosexual can't be "blamed" for being sexually attracted to children. He can be blamed for not seeking help and controlling his urges. "I couldn't restrain myself" isn't an excuse for rape amongst heterosexuals, it isn't an excuse amongst anything else. You're aware that what you're doing is wrong, don't do it.

All of this is aimed at people who are sexually attracted to children. It is not targeted at people who prey on children because they are weak/incapable of resisting/psychological damage from their youth/whatever, who can often engage in sexual acts with children, while actually being hardly or not sexually attracted to children - similar to men raping men in war scenarios, while maintaining their heterosexuality. Whole 'nother kettle of fish. There we're talking about sociopaths, psychopaths or otherwise deranged individuals.

Mind experiment if you're going to disagree about consent being the issue: if we put the mind of an adult in a child's body, could that person have sex with someone without it being wrong? If not, where does it start or stop? Plenty of 40-year-old women have no hips, small-to-no breasts, shave away their pubes, etc etc. Where else but in consent can you draw a line, that's not based out of religion or personal preference?

After reading that, I can't help myself some times...

Ravenpoe said:

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I could go my whole life without sex and not want to molest any kids.

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It's not because you have willpower that someone else has to, as well. I could go my whole life not having sex if the only option was kids, too. Like I said, I don't mean to "justify" or "lessen" pedophilia. Absolutely not. It's amongst the most heinous crimes I know, and I regularly go on long rants (no, really?) on political fora in Belgium about the ridiculously low punishments some people get away with - anyone who hurts a child deserves to be...well, I'm drawing a blank for the moment, but you get the point.
If you have these urges and can't control them, get help or kill yourself. Don't go molesting kids. Yes, if I had this sort of urgings and I honestly, seriously, couldn't control myself and, for some reason, couldn't get anyone to help me (psychologist, psychiatrist, a priest , doctor, whatever), and I knew I couldn't control myself anymore? I would kill myself before humping a kid.


As for that picture...I have no idea who or what it is, so the joke's lost on me (though it's about me, so maybe I'm not supposed to get it?)

It's fun to stay at the why em see aih. It's fun to stay at the why em see aih-yay.

Bubble181

Now we're popeless.

I hope the next pope doesn't look normal, how will I go on if I can't make fun of him for looking like a Star Wars villain?!

sixpackshaker said:

Spoiler: Venture Bros.

It is from the show The Venture Brothers. The big guy is a mercenary that is/was a pedo, then he felt liberated when he met the stunted, hydrocephalic 40 year old boy genius. Then he preceded to rape him. Comedy Gold. i.e. It's LEGAL?

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They'll replace this evil person with another.

Habemus Papam.

White smoke mean there's now a new pedophile-in-chief ... I mean...Pope.

Dave said:

White smoke mean there's now a new pedophile-in-chief ... I mean...Pope.

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You know, I get the feeling that Dave doesn't like the pope.

Ravenpoe said:

You know, I get the feeling that Dave doesn't like the pope.

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I rather think that organized religion as a whole is corrupt and evil, and the catholics are some of the worst. The damage they've done in the name of their deity is staggering.

I'm disappointed with the choice. I was hoping for some real change, but it seems they've just chosen yet another old arch-conservative. I don't see much New and Improved Church coming from this one. Ah well.

Who? I can't find a name anywhere.

Of course not; they haven't announced it yet. I'm pretty sure my comment will be valid though

blotsfan said:

Who? I can't find a name anywhere.

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There isn't one, yet. But it's surmised that the quicker it was the more conservative the choice would be.

In any event, I'll shut up now and let the catholics have their moment.

It's the argentinian guy. I read earlier today that he was the more progressive alternative to Ratzinger in the last election so that's good.

EDIT: It was not one of the most expected.

He's also a jesuit. That's good too in my opinion.

Eh...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...nitina-videla-bergoglio-repentance?CMP=twt_gu

Bubble181 said:

I'm disappointed with the choice. I was hoping for some real change,

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I LOL'ed!

blotsfan said:

Eh...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...nitina-videla-bergoglio-repentance?CMP=twt_gu

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Ow

I know a girl called Frances. I'll be calling her Your Holiness for a while.

So... can anyone give us the low-down on what kind of a character Pope Frank I is? I'm kinda worried about him being a Jesuit, but then again today's paper also said he refused to live in the lavish bishop's palace and lived in a condo instead.

Crud.

Azurephoenix said:

Supposedly more liberal than his predecessor... but really is that saying much?

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More liberal than Torquemada reborn? So at least there'll be no more public burnings of heathen...

Azurephoenix said:

He's a hardliner on all the issues the Catholic church needs to reform on. Supposedly more liberal than his predecessor... but really is that saying much?

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Ratzinger spent most of his time trying to reform the Vatican, mostly unsuccessfully because none of the other bishops would cooperate, including the ones he handpicked for jobs. Even if Francis DOES want to reform, unless he can get the other bishops on board he'll never get anything done, just like Ratzinger.

That's the real problem with the Church's organization: there really aren't many options to enforce policy in the church, aside from excommunication and moving guys around. Considering how the priesthood has been in decline for decades now, neither is really an option anymore.

AshburnerX said:

That's the real problem with the Church's organization: there really aren't many options to enforce policy in the church

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Hired goons?

North_Ranger said:

he refused to live in the lavish bishop's palace and lived in a condo instead.

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I think this is relevant...
Yes, he is very anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage etc. and that's awful, but what the hell, who expected anything else?