Export thread

TSA forces cancer survivor to show prosthesis - Travel - News - msnbc.com

Now this is just messed up. And she's a flight attendant on top of everything else. I didn't have to put up with this shit in South Africa, Korea, or Japan. Only in America...

Jesus Christ. When will it be enough? The issue is we can never be fully safe from terrorist attacks. How does punishing everyone make us safer? Answer: It doesn't. They will simply figure out how to circumvent THESE regulations.

I know we don't have a "right" to fly, but we do have a right to privacy. These tactics go too far and I will be willing to bet that they are rescinded in the very near future.

Don't bet on it. Now Obama has come out in defense of the new measures in the name of "keeping us safe."

Mr. President, I mean every bit of disrespect when I tell you to go fuck yourself. You continue to defend measures and agencies that consider pilots and infants to be terrorists until proven otherwise. For a man who got into Harvard Law on his merits, you're pretty damned stupid.

We don't really have a right to privacy.

makare said:

We don't really have a right to privacy.

Click to expand...

That seems like an ambiguous statement, care to elaborate on this?

Life. Liberty. Pursuit of Happiness. I think those are our rights. Even in health care you don't have a right to privacy. Confidentiality, yes, privacy, not so much.

Nowhere in the constitution is the right to privacy listed. The courts kind of ebb and flow on the topic. In this facebook world you can pretty much kiss any reasonable expectation of privacy good bye.

Fourth Amendment would seem to apply to this case. Although it is questionable if the third and fourth amendments extend to the notion of privacy in general, I think there is a pretty direct application in this case. It's not only a search of someone's property, but of their very person. Weather or not "privacy" is guaranteed us by law seems irrelevant, when we are protected from unreasonable searches by the Bill of Rights.

That seems like nothing compared to the guy who had his pee-bag broken by a TSA pat down. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40291856/ns/travel-news/

I have my doubts anything will change though.

The fourth amendment doesn't really apply there because people really can choose not to fly to avoid the search.

Also police aren't doing the searches it is people who work for the air port. Right? The fourth amendment is generally accepted to apply only to government actors in situations where the person has no choice.

makare said:

The fourth amendment doesn't really apply there because people really can choose not to fly to avoid the search.

Also police aren't doing the searches it is people who work for the air port. Right? The fourth amendment is generally accepted to apply only to government actors in situations where the person has no choice.

Click to expand...

I don't see why the fourth amendment should be limited to government actions. No one should be able to search my person without reason, and I certainly shouldn't be compelled to undergo an invasive search without cause. Furthermore, the TSA is a government institution. The security officers at airports work for the government. Even if the 4th Amendment only applies to the government, it should apply here.

As to choosing not to fly, what about those who didn't know about the scans and wish to reject them? Once you're at the airport, you can't choose to opt out. Even if you decide not to fly, you've still got to be searched by security before you can leave the airport. The invasive nature of the scans is not something that was made clear to many passengers before their flight. Just buying a ticket and showing up at the airport are not consent to be searched, nor is refusing a scan a reasonable cause to subject someone to groping and other invasive searches. However, the TSA has taken that stance none-the-less. It's one thing to say "you can't get on the plane without being searched", it's something else all-together to say "you can't opt-out once you've made it this far, even though we did not warn you this was coming"

Oh, and in case anyone thinks that those worried about the radiation from the scans are being paranoid, from MIT's Technologoy Review:
How Terahertz Waves Tear Apart DNA
"although the forces generated are tiny, resonant effects allow THz waves to unzip double-stranded DNA, creating bubbles in the double strand that could significantly interfere with processes such as gene expression and DNA replication."

The Bill of Rights was designed too limit the actions of the Federal Government. That was about it.

I'm not saying you can't make those arguments but given the judicial history of issues related... I don't see it working.

Personally I would make an equal protection argument, Im not sure what but that's the way I'd go.

I'd bet money that most of these checks will be stopped after Thanksgiving. The day before the holiday will be an absolute fiasco, with people missing their flights because they (or the people ahead of them in line) have to submit themselves to these outrageous searches. The net effect of these searches will not only cause missed flights, but overloaded flights as passengers who missed their intended flight will need to cram into the next one. I don't think the airlines will want to go through this for the entire holiday season. As more passengers get fed up and some even stop flying, the airline companies will probably provide the momentum to restore a small amount of sanity.

Yeah, I'm aware that privacy is a right that's not specifically guaranteed by the constitution. We do have a right against unreasonable search and seizure. Since Terry v. Ohio (1968) law enforcement personnel have been allowed to stop and frisk a subject without probable cause, so long as they have reasonable suspicion that the subject has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime. I had understood that the TSA was a law enforcement organization. Perhaps the fact that you're boarding a plane is enough to make TSA screeners reasonably suspicious?

personally Id say that the invasiveness of the searches at airports is way beyond the simple stop and frisk of Terry Search.

But you have to get the court to buy it. Terry has also been modified quite a bit. But the fact that you don't have to fly is still an issue. Terry searches are without any chance to avoid it. Who the hell doesn't know you get searched at the airport? That is common knowledge. Anyone tries to pull the, I didn't know card... good luck.


oh i know what i'd do. I'd get a bunch of business people with business that rely on air travel to sue on the grounds that the time consuming nature of the searches infringes on their ability to do business.

figmentPez said:

"although the forces generated are tiny, resonant effects allow THz waves to unzip double-stranded DNA

Click to expand...

Got a question for Chaz, Necronic, or whoever else is knowledgeable about such things: Is that really a big deal? Unless the THz waves alter the base pairs in DNA, a denatured strand would generally return to it's regular conformation once you remove the outside force, would it not?

IronBrig4 said:

I'd bet money that most of these checks will be stopped after Thanksgiving.

Click to expand...

That's a bet I'd take. Same thing happened with taking shoes off, with liquids, and with increased random searches. People bitched and moaned for a few weeks, but in the end learned to deal with it.

Like Makare said, you always have the choice to not fly. If not disclosing the fact that you have to go through these searches becomes an issue, I'm sure they won't have a problem requiring one to be signed before purchase.

This is all show, no effect. It's about putting on a presentation, not actually catching anyone.

makare said:

personally Id say that the invasiveness of the searches at airports is way beyond the simple stop and frisk of Terry Search.

But you have to get the court to buy it. Terry has also been modified quite a bit. But the fact that you don't have to fly is still an issue. Terry searches are without any chance to avoid it. Who the hell doesn't know you get searched at the airport? That is common knowledge. Anyone tries to pull the, I didn't know card... good luck.


oh i know what i'd do. I'd get a bunch of business people with business that rely on air travel to sue on the grounds that the time consuming nature of the searches infringes on their ability to do business.

Click to expand...

I do know that if I attempted to do a search to the extent that TSA is performing, I would have 3 large IA sergeants calling me before I even got into my car.

Is TSA a private company with a government contract, or an actual government entity. This distinction is important if you're going to invoke the 4th.

These are not Terry vs. Ohio incidents. These are going to be incidents that makare's going to have to update her edumacation learning the nuances about.

Officer_Charon;453873][QUOTE=makare said:

personally Id say that the invasiveness of the searches at airports is way beyond the simple stop and frisk of Terry Search.

But you have to get the court to buy it. Terry has also been modified quite a bit. But the fact that you don't have to fly is still an issue. Terry searches are without any chance to avoid it. Who the hell doesn't know you get searched at the airport? That is common knowledge. Anyone tries to pull the, I didn't know card... good luck.


oh i know what i'd do. I'd get a bunch of business people with business that rely on air travel to sue on the grounds that the time consuming nature of the searches infringes on their ability to do business.

Click to expand...

I do know that if I attempted to do a search to the extent that TSA is performing, I would have 3 large IA sergeants calling me before I even got into my car.

Is TSA a private company with a government contract, or an actual government entity. This distinction is important if you're going to invoke the 4th.

These are not Terry vs. Ohio incidents. These are going to be incidents that makare's going to have to update her edumacation learning the nuances about.[/QUOTE]

What the hell I didn't say they were Terry searches I said they are way beyond them,

I didn't mean that against you... I meant it as these are going to be ground-breaking potential caselaw suits in their larval stages, that's all.

Yeah there really isn't much to compare them to at this point. That's the real problem. It is NOT the same as street searches that's for sure. I'm trying to compare it to drug related searches like United States v. Montoya De Hernandez but I'm really not sure they can compare. Also that wouldn't be favorable for my opinion anyway.

The TSA is an actual government agency in the Department of Homeland Security. I wonder how many lawsuits will be filed the day before Thanksgiving.

That we're even having this discussion is further proof the terrorists have already won. They've done more damage with a pair of dirty skivvies than ten bombs could accomplish.

DarkAudit said:

That we're even having this discussion is further proof the terrorists have already won. They've done more damage with a pair of dirty skivvies than ten bombs could accomplish.

Click to expand...

I have never agreed more with you than I do right now.

The glaring problem to me here is, how many terrorist plots to blow up a plane with bombs hidden on a person have succeeded?

I can't think of one. The shoe bomber failed, the underwear bomber failed, and they failed because of the other passengers. THAT is going to be the best deterrence, vigilance by everyone. Constantly increasing security only angers and turns away innocent people. The airlines are already struggling to make money, I'm sure they don't want the TSA turning people away from flying.

I don't understand why going through the scanner is such a big deal. I go through it every time I travel. It's fast, easy and I doubt my images will end up online for all to see. Good luck identifying me if they ever did (hint: I'm the one with the 8 inch schlong and that's when it's limp). As far as fear of radiation, I put that right up there with chemicals used in our foods, cell phones causing brain tumors and all the other red herrings the media throw at us. I would much rather go through the scanner than have some dude grab my junk. Now if you could opt for it I'd much rather be searched by a female because I'd feel more comfortable being patted down by a woman than a man. Same reason I have a female doctor. I've got no problem standing in front of a female nude but I feel uncomfortable with a guy doing it. Full body scanners are not that bad. I do agree if we live in fear of being attacked the terrorists have won. Best way to combat it is to go back to pre 911. The odds of something like that happening again are rare.

Of course this video pissed me off:
There's no reason I can think of that you need to make a young child strip down in the middle of the airport and pat him down.

Steve said:

There's no reason I can think of that you need to make a young child strip down in the middle of the airport and pat him down.

Click to expand...

he is being used as a "bomb mule" thats all i can think of...

General Specific said:

The glaring problem to me here is, how many terrorist plots to blow up a plane with bombs hidden on a person have succeeded?

I can't think of one. The shoe bomber failed, the underwear bomber failed, and they failed because of the other passengers. THAT is going to be the best deterrence, vigilance by everyone. Constantly increasing security only angers and turns away innocent people. The airlines are already struggling to make money, I'm sure they don't want the TSA turning people away from flying.

Click to expand...

The problem is that the detterence of the general increase of security is hard to define, and measure. In fact the problem that those people got through, puts forth the arguement that there isn't enough security if people were able to sneak stuff on. I think that in general we have passed the threshold where the amount of extra security actually significantly decreases the threat of it.

A good quote which is hazily remember is that you can make your house burglar proof if you remove all the doors and windows (basically any way in), but then what do you have exactly?

Yeah judging a country by their airport security makes perfect sense.

Agreed none of the countries he mentioned have any other problems with invasion of privacy or 'big brother' type things.

Apparently the TSA really hates cancer survivors: TSA pat-down leaves traveler covered in urine

Bladder cancer survivor has to wear a urostomy bag to collect his urine, and the TSA officials doing the scan refused to listen to him about his medical condition. Their pat down breaks the seal on the bag, leaking urine all over this poor guy. And this was after he willingly went through the scanner.

"And every time I tried to tell them about my medical condition, they said they didn’t need to know about that.”"

That goes beyond incompetence, to the point of reckless endangerment. One of my highschool friends had a feeding tube installed in his stomach, if that had been messed with it could have endangered his life. Maybe a urostomy bag isn't that sensitive, but the TSA agents had no way of knowing that since they didn't bother to listen to anything.

My government is not my country. It is merely the government.

Democracy brings out the majority on any major issue. But there are a lot of minorities too. I'd say every American holds some kind of minority view. I don't hold other countries governments against the people of those countries because people are individuals. I would appreciate it if other peoples did the same for me and my country.

Hell my state government doesn't even represent me. There's 700,000 people in this state, I am one hell of a minority. But I still count.

My point is you bitch about the US A LOT. The government does a lot of stupid shit and it sucks but that doesn't mean the US is bad. If people are not smart enough to get past first impressions and actually get to know people and what actually makes the US the US, whose shortcoming is that?

When I first went to Italy I hated it. It was dirty, noisy and annoying. I probably would have preferred just getting back on the plane and going home. But I didn't and I learned that although Italy IS dirty, noisy and annoying it is also awesome and it was a fun experience. First impressions are just first impressions.

mr_thehun;454026][QUOTE=makare said:

Democracy brings out the majority on any major issue. But there are a lot of minorities too. I'd say every American holds some kind of minority view. I don't hold other countries governments against the people of those countries because people are individuals. I would appreciate it if other peoples did the same for me and my country.

Hell my state government doesn't even represent me. There's 700,000 people in this state, I am one hell of a minority. But I still count.

Click to expand...

What is your point Makare?

What I said was that I have never felt that my decency was violated in any other country I have traveled to. That the airport for many people is the first place that they see when they enter a country and the last place they see when they leave. It is the first impression for many people who are coming to your country.

And that first impression is vary bad.[/QUOTE]

Can we put this into perspective?

We can dwell on all the terrible stories about flying that are out there, but honestly:

Between 1.5 and 2 MILLION people fly inside, into, and out of the united states PER DAY.

Two million people on 7,000+ flights each day.

If this was even an occasional experience, we'd be seeing millions of people a year having such horrible problems.

As it is there are "many" really horrible experiences, such as those described in this thread, there are countless bad experiences, there are a lot of poor experiences, and for most people it is, at worst, an inconvenience.

Now I don't want to lessen the terrible, humiliating experience these individuals had, and they should pursue their cases against the TSA, the airlines, and whoever else they deem necessary to come to terms with their experience and to resolve the problems so that they do not occur to others.

But the reality is that most people have the same experience I have: you get into line, you take you shoes, belt, empty your pockets onto the buckets, put your laptop in the buckets, walk through the metal detectors, and then you put everything back on and away and get on your flight.

There are 2 million people doing this every day. The vast majority have little to no problems, and the worst part is waiting in that long line. Heaven forbid you have bored children, or an emo teen that thinks it's funny to joke about bombs, but really.

It may be more inconvenient that other countries. Sorry. We had some guys with box cutters throw us a punch that we still haven't recovered from. You are a victim of our paranoia.

But to pretend that every single passenger, foreign or not, has this 10 minute grope session ordeal is ludicrous at best.

No, the system isn't perfect. Yes, we've recently had some bad scares (the printer cartridge bombs recently found through intelligence efforts that were not caught by our scanners and personnel, and the recent German intelligence information) so we're being a bit more cautious.

Unfortunately the worst part about all this is that these organizations are made up of people, and people make mistakes. These need to be corrected, and where needed people need to be reprimanded, moved into positions where they don't come into contact with passengers, or fired.

It's silly to extrapolate the worst experiences and assume they happen to everyone.

I think my overall point is, tone it down because it makes you sound like a jerk.


That's about it.

makare said:

My point is you bitch about the US A LOT.

Click to expand...

It's just peninsula envy.

:behindsofa:

The TSA isn't there to keep us safe. It was invented solely as a jobs program that no one can get rid of.

Here's why: is there anyone with not only the political courage to seriously propose dismantling it, but the pull to make it stick? Just the notion would never make it through even one news cycle. Fox and Rush and so on would tear the idea and the person to shreds. It's political suicide to mess with the TSA in today's climate.

DarkAudit said:

The TSA isn't there to keep us safe. It was invented solely as a jobs program that no one can get rid of.

Click to expand...

With that astounding logic, there is nothing in the gov't that is anything more than a "jobs program". Bring more meat to the table.

.

First Lady Puffinstuff;454041][QUOTE=DarkAudit said:

The TSA isn't there to keep us safe. It was invented solely as a jobs program that no one can get rid of.

Click to expand...

With that astounding logic, there is nothing in the gov't that is anything more than a "jobs program". Bring more meat to the table.[/QUOTE]

You've missed the point by light years.

I'll ask again. What politician is going to risk their hide against the avalanche of "soft on terror" screeching from all sides to call out the TSA for the bad joke that it is? I'm willing to bet not a one. Not one who isn't already on their way out, anyway

Geez, the situation gets worse and worse.

I'll be honest and state that I've never enjoyed traveling to the U.S after 9-11. The last time I went to Florida to catch my cruise in spring, the process took from start to finish, close to 3 hours. At one point I had my shoes, belt, shirt off and two men were doing buzzing around me with cricket bats. I wasn't amused that I didn't even have time to get a bite after the whole pointless ordeal before my flight. For the record, this whole process took AS LONG as the flight itself. The same thing applied on my way back. I can only imagine the additionnal delays if TSA agents were probing me with their fingers. (did any of you catch the SNL skit about this? it was hilarious)

Yet when I went to Europe the last few times or fly within Canada, the experience was far more acceptable and reasonable. I'm for checkups but really, this crosses the line. And being told "you have the choice not to fly". Yes, that's true but I also don't think taking a boat across the Atlantic like Christopher F'in Columbus is an acceptable option B.

Wow....... Ok people, lets play nice.

Makare: you be surprise how first impression effects people. Sure an educated person would do the research and learn about things before passing judgment, but look at the U.S. right now. People are passing judgment left and right (myself included) with little research. It happens. We also have to be concern for traveler's impression.

Here is why:
For me, traveling abroad is an expensive thing to do (looking around at least 2k a person for 5 day travel). Everything I do is double because I take my wife with me. So sometimes, first impression are put into consideration on returning to X country. I personally had a horrible time in France cause the people (mainly Paris) made fun of me every day, but I don't let that bother me cause my wife never been and see all the beautiful sights. Would I go back to Paris alone? probably not, I may visit other cities first before going to Paris alone.

I have been to other countries in the last 5 years and the U.S. has the most inconvenience airport. I have been to Germany and my carry-on was searched 3 times (cause I have two laptops. One was mine and the other is my wife), but it wasn't as bad when I was traveling to Chicago. I have been to China and Japan and their airport is not bad compare to the U.S.

I don't think these searches really deter the real terrorist. It may deter "would be" but if a real terrorist wanted to do something, they can. I am not sure about all the news report, but from what I have read (not sure if it is true or not) we (the U.S.) have train some of them in the past or know about it but didn't act on it.

That is just my view.

Steve said:

There's no reason I can think of that you need to make a young child strip down in the middle of the airport and pat him down.

Click to expand...

They did this to my 1 year old when we went to Hawaii last January. Had to strip him down to his diaper... and then they had to insepct the diaper. In the security officer's defense... he seemed highly uncomfortable doing it and apologized when everything was done (apparently a rarity among these people).

makare said:

The fourth amendment doesn't really apply there because people really can choose not to fly to avoid the search.

Also police aren't doing the searches it is people who work for the air port. Right? The fourth amendment is generally accepted to apply only to government actors in situations where the person has no choice.

Click to expand...

TSA is a federal administration. They are government actors.

Dubyamn;454127][QUOTE=makare said:

The fourth amendment doesn't really apply there because people really can choose not to fly to avoid the search.

Also police aren't doing the searches it is people who work for the air port. Right? The fourth amendment is generally accepted to apply only to government actors in situations where the person has no choice.

Click to expand...

TSA is a federal administration. They are government actors.[/QUOTE]

Yeah we cleared that up already.

drifter;453858][QUOTE=figmentPez said:

"although the forces generated are tiny, resonant effects allow THz waves to unzip double-stranded DNA

Click to expand...

Got a question for Chaz, Necronic, or whoever else is knowledgeable about such things: Is that really a big deal? Unless the THz waves alter the base pairs in DNA, a denatured strand would generally return to it's regular conformation once you remove the outside force, would it not?[/QUOTE]

Chaz is probably better equipped to answer this than I am, so take what I am saying with a grain of salt, but I'll take a shot.

First off, the research sounds plausible, but I would have to read the paper to know for sure, and even then this is beyond my level of knowledge. You're dealing with EM effects on macromolecules, which is effectively impossible to predict (e-cloud modelling on macromolecules is borderline impossible, hence the protein folding cloud computing.) So the research is going to be empirically based, not predictive.

Beyond that I don't know how you can monitor DNA structure in a natural form while being bombarded with radiation. X-ray cystallography and other systems generall don't give you a true picture of the structure. Yet again, that's why we run the protein folding cloud computer. You can't know for sure what a protein looks like without doing the modelling.

That said, if the DNA is being unzipped it will go back to normal (I think) depending on how unzipped it got (i.e. not fully denatured). The problem is that during that time that it is unzipped it is more open to attack by all sorts of enzymes/proteins/whatever.

Long story short, its an interesting/disturbing find. On the other hand, there have been similar findings on Cell-phones/wifi and we use those a million times more (although there are many studies that disagree with cellphones)

------------------

To the security thing, I think the TSA has had multiple black marks of unproffesionalism. I don't think that the problem are the security measures, but how they are handled. This woman's screen should have been done in private. The man with the urine bag should have been listened to. If the TSA wants to stay in existence, it needs to be managed with an extremely high level of courtesy. Which ultimately means increasing wages/national investment.

In general though I support advanced security measures. People often take machine's for granted, and don't think about what a plane (or a car) really is. The destructive potential of a plane is phenomenal, are our memories so short that we have forgotten that?

Planes are also unique in that passengers have a massive level of control on the safety of the plane. If someone wants to compromise that safety and has the means to do it there is almost nothing you can do to protect yourself. That's why security at airports has to be so much more intense than it is anywhere else.

Its not like we haven't had close calls. The underwear and shoe bomber were only partially unsuccesful. They got the weapons on the plain, they just screwed up in using them. Next time we may not be so lucky.

Someone earlier made a comment about the visibility of security reducing its effectiveness, I don't think that's true. Yes, there should be security systems that are not known or visible, but the 'boots on the ground' make a huge difference as well, like making a potential bomber nervous enough to be caught or deterred.

Honestly I have never had that much difficulty flying. When I get up to the security gate I have a system of removing everything from my person and putting it in my briefcase, then I just walk right through.

I also don't think that people have an innate right to fly. If you are willing to jump through the hoops you are allowed to fly, however those hoops need to be consistent. I have known multiple people who have missed flights because their first name is Omar, and that is not acceptable. With a more effective IT system with a detailed database about the people on the no fly list (as opposed to just a bunch of names with "brown person" written next to it) these issues could be avoided.

Ultimately its a new system, and it will take a while to get the wrinkles out, but I refuse to accept that anything that puts people out, regardless of the security implications, should be abandoned. People that dislike airport security on a philosophical level are more than welcome to fly that philosophy wherever they are going.

DarkAudit;454055][QUOTE=First Lady Puffinstuff;454041][QUOTE=DarkAudit said:

The TSA isn't there to keep us safe. It was invented solely as a jobs program that no one can get rid of.

Click to expand...

With that astounding logic, there is nothing in the gov't that is anything more than a "jobs program". Bring more meat to the table.[/QUOTE]

You've missed the point by light years.

I'll ask again. What politician is going to risk their hide against the avalanche of "soft on terror" screeching from all sides to call out the TSA for the bad joke that it is? I'm willing to bet not a one. Not one who isn't already on their way out, anyway[/QUOTE]

I understand your point. You believe it serves no purpose, and the only reason it's around is because politicians are too spineless to present the "truth" about it.

It appears you have missed my point.

I'm asking you to provide evidence that if the TSA went away we would not have a repeat of 9/11.

In other words, if so many people "know" it's useless and pointless, then you should have some real material to back up your claims.

Its not like we haven't had close calls. The underwear and shoe bomber were only partially unsuccesful. They got the weapons on the plain, they just screwed up in using them. Next time we may not be so lucky.

Click to expand...

Both being on the no fly list, and should have been stopped without the need for a strip search.

It's like if Toyota were to install additional airbags to their vehicles upon learning that their breaks stood a chance of failing.

drifter;453858][QUOTE=figmentPez said:

"although the forces generated are tiny, resonant effects allow THz waves to unzip double-stranded DNA

Click to expand...

Got a question for Chaz, Necronic, or whoever else is knowledgeable about such things: Is that really a big deal? Unless the THz waves alter the base pairs in DNA, a denatured strand would generally return to it's regular conformation once you remove the outside force, would it not?[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I don't think it's a major problem. DNA annealing and denaturing is dependent on a number of factors. I'm not 100% on the effects because I never really read about any THz wave studies on DNA, but a major factor in DNA annealing is temperature itself. There are proteins like histones that aid in the regulation of what double strands open up and where as well as other things to consider like GC content of the strand.

The point is that the DNA in your cells is not nakedly floating around in there. It's tightly coiled (like a rubber band twisted around and around itself), surrounded by regulatory enzymes and proteins that aide in keeping it stable. The DNA in your cells gets beat up on a lot by the environment itself. It's not really a cut and dry deal, saying that something is found to denature DNA. I can do that by dunking a centrifuge tube in 90 degree water.

makare said:

My point is you bitch about the US A LOT. The government does a lot of stupid shit and it sucks but that doesn't mean the US is bad. If people are not smart enough to get past first impressions and actually get to know people and what actually makes the US the US, whose shortcoming is that?

When I first went to Italy I hated it. It was dirty, noisy and annoying. I probably would have preferred just getting back on the plane and going home. But I didn't and I learned that although Italy IS dirty, noisy and annoying it is also awesome and it was a fun experience. First impressions are just first impressions.

Click to expand...

That statement, wow, just wow.

Although South Dakota is a barren wasteland full of fat, dumb rednecks, seeing Mount Rushmore was an awesome and fun experience.

Chazwozel;454185][QUOTE=drifter;453858][QUOTE=figmentPez said:

"although the forces generated are tiny, resonant effects allow THz waves to unzip double-stranded DNA

Click to expand...

Got a question for Chaz, Necronic, or whoever else is knowledgeable about such things: Is that really a big deal? Unless the THz waves alter the base pairs in DNA, a denatured strand would generally return to it's regular conformation once you remove the outside force, would it not?[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I don't think it's a major problem. DNA annealing and denaturing is dependent on a number of factors. I'm not 100% on the effects because I never really read about any THz wave studies on DNA, but a major factor in DNA annealing is temperature itself. There are proteins like histones that aid in the regulation of what double strands open up and where as well as other things to consider like GC content of the strand.

The point is that the DNA in your cells is not nakedly floating around in there. It's tightly coiled (like a rubber band twisted around and around itself), surrounded by regulatory enzymes and proteins that aide in keeping it stable. The DNA in your cells gets beat up on a lot by the environment itself. It's not really a cut and dry deal, saying that something is found to denature DNA. I can do that by dunking a centrifuge tube in 90 degree water.[/QUOTE]

So as long the we are not being microwave (so our blood boils) and x-ray at the same time we'll be ok?

Chibibar;454195][QUOTE=Chazwozel;454185][QUOTE=drifter;453858][QUOTE=figmentPez said:

"although the forces generated are tiny, resonant effects allow THz waves to unzip double-stranded DNA

Click to expand...

Got a question for Chaz, Necronic, or whoever else is knowledgeable about such things: Is that really a big deal? Unless the THz waves alter the base pairs in DNA, a denatured strand would generally return to it's regular conformation once you remove the outside force, would it not?[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I don't think it's a major problem. DNA annealing and denaturing is dependent on a number of factors. I'm not 100% on the effects because I never really read about any THz wave studies on DNA, but a major factor in DNA annealing is temperature itself. There are proteins like histones that aid in the regulation of what double strands open up and where as well as other things to consider like GC content of the strand.

The point is that the DNA in your cells is not nakedly floating around in there. It's tightly coiled (like a rubber band twisted around and around itself), surrounded by regulatory enzymes and proteins that aide in keeping it stable. The DNA in your cells gets beat up on a lot by the environment itself. It's not really a cut and dry deal, saying that something is found to denature DNA. I can do that by dunking a centrifuge tube in 90 degree water.[/QUOTE]

So as long the we are not being microwave (so our blood boils) and x-ray at the same time we'll be ok? [/QUOTE]

Or set on fire. Yeah extreme temperatures and EM exposure are bad, mmmkay.

Scientists say they have solution to TSA scanner objections

Ok... so now they are gonna "warp" the body. I guess it will be a while before we get "Total Recall" scanner where it is all "bones" with weapon display on the black screen.

Chazwozel;454192][QUOTE=makare said:

My point is you bitch about the US A LOT. The government does a lot of stupid shit and it sucks but that doesn't mean the US is bad. If people are not smart enough to get past first impressions and actually get to know people and what actually makes the US the US, whose shortcoming is that?

When I first went to Italy I hated it. It was dirty, noisy and annoying. I probably would have preferred just getting back on the plane and going home. But I didn't and I learned that although Italy IS dirty, noisy and annoying it is also awesome and it was a fun experience. First impressions are just first impressions.

Click to expand...

That statement, wow, just wow.

Although South Dakota is a barren wasteland full of fat, dumb rednecks, seeing Mount Rushmore was an awesome and fun experience.[/QUOTE]

Italy IS dirty, or at least parts of it are. Rome and Naples are pretty trashy. The graphitti in Rome made me want to cry a bit. As someone who lives in an area where the oldest buildings are maybe 150 years old, and are shacks by any other name, it blows me away how people could vandalize buildings that are thousands of years old.

Both being on the no fly list, and should have been stopped without the need for a strip search

Click to expand...

I did not know that. That is inexcusable. I don't have a problem with the TSA's enhanced security if and only if they can already manage basic security systems. If not then this is just icing on a poop cake.

Necronic;454205][QUOTE=Chazwozel;454192][QUOTE=makare said:

My point is you bitch about the US A LOT. The government does a lot of stupid shit and it sucks but that doesn't mean the US is bad. If people are not smart enough to get past first impressions and actually get to know people and what actually makes the US the US, whose shortcoming is that?

When I first went to Italy I hated it. It was dirty, noisy and annoying. I probably would have preferred just getting back on the plane and going home. But I didn't and I learned that although Italy IS dirty, noisy and annoying it is also awesome and it was a fun experience. First impressions are just first impressions.

Click to expand...

That statement, wow, just wow.

Although South Dakota is a barren wasteland full of fat, dumb rednecks, seeing Mount Rushmore was an awesome and fun experience.[/QUOTE]

Italy IS dirty, or at least parts of it are. Rome and Naples are pretty trashy. The graphitti in Rome made me want to cry a bit. As someone who lives in an area where the oldest buildings are maybe 150 years old, and are shacks by any other name, it blows me away how people could vandalize buildings that are thousands of years old.[/QUOTE]

And South Dakota is a barren wasteland full of fat, dumb rednecks...

She's making that claim about an entire country, which is not true.

Must be start-a-fight time.

Chazwozel;454207][QUOTE=Necronic;454205][QUOTE=Chazwozel;454192][QUOTE=makare said:

My point is you bitch about the US A LOT. The government does a lot of stupid shit and it sucks but that doesn't mean the US is bad. If people are not smart enough to get past first impressions and actually get to know people and what actually makes the US the US, whose shortcoming is that?

When I first went to Italy I hated it. It was dirty, noisy and annoying. I probably would have preferred just getting back on the plane and going home. But I didn't and I learned that although Italy IS dirty, noisy and annoying it is also awesome and it was a fun experience. First impressions are just first impressions.

Click to expand...

That statement, wow, just wow.

Although South Dakota is a barren wasteland full of fat, dumb rednecks, seeing Mount Rushmore was an awesome and fun experience.[/QUOTE]

Italy IS dirty, or at least parts of it are. Rome and Naples are pretty trashy. The graphitti in Rome made me want to cry a bit. As someone who lives in an area where the oldest buildings are maybe 150 years old, and are shacks by any other name, it blows me away how people could vandalize buildings that are thousands of years old.[/QUOTE]

And South Dakota is a barren wasteland full of fat, dumb rednecks...

She's making that claim about an entire country, which is not true.[/QUOTE]

It's true. I saw an awful lot of that country. If you were in Sodak I doubt you strayed from the interstate like the rest of the slack jawed tourists who come through here.

You bring so much to a conversation as usual.

makare;454211][QUOTE=Chazwozel;454207][QUOTE=Necronic;454205][QUOTE=Chazwozel;454192][QUOTE=makare said:

My point is you bitch about the US A LOT. The government does a lot of stupid shit and it sucks but that doesn't mean the US is bad. If people are not smart enough to get past first impressions and actually get to know people and what actually makes the US the US, whose shortcoming is that?

When I first went to Italy I hated it. It was dirty, noisy and annoying. I probably would have preferred just getting back on the plane and going home. But I didn't and I learned that although Italy IS dirty, noisy and annoying it is also awesome and it was a fun experience. First impressions are just first impressions.

Click to expand...

That statement, wow, just wow.

Although South Dakota is a barren wasteland full of fat, dumb rednecks, seeing Mount Rushmore was an awesome and fun experience.[/QUOTE]

Italy IS dirty, or at least parts of it are. Rome and Naples are pretty trashy. The graphitti in Rome made me want to cry a bit. As someone who lives in an area where the oldest buildings are maybe 150 years old, and are shacks by any other name, it blows me away how people could vandalize buildings that are thousands of years old.[/QUOTE]

And South Dakota is a barren wasteland full of fat, dumb rednecks...

She's making that claim about an entire country, which is not true.[/QUOTE]

It's true. I saw an awful lot of that country. If you were in Sodak I doubt you strayed from the interstate like the rest of the slack jawed tourists who come through here.

You bring so much to a conversation as usual.[/QUOTE]

I'm not the sheltered idiot making generalizations about entire countries based on some People to People excursion I had to a few cities. What you're doing is akin to someone visiting the U.S. and saying that the entire country is noisy and dirty because they visited New York City, Philadelphia, and Washington D.C.

or Texas and say.. all we eat are steaks and keep saying "Y'all and Fix'in"

Chazwozel;454213][QUOTE=makare;454211][QUOTE=Chazwozel;454207][QUOTE=Necronic;454205][QUOTE=Chazwozel;454192][QUOTE=makare said:

My point is you bitch about the US A LOT. The government does a lot of stupid shit and it sucks but that doesn't mean the US is bad. If people are not smart enough to get past first impressions and actually get to know people and what actually makes the US the US, whose shortcoming is that?

When I first went to Italy I hated it. It was dirty, noisy and annoying. I probably would have preferred just getting back on the plane and going home. But I didn't and I learned that although Italy IS dirty, noisy and annoying it is also awesome and it was a fun experience. First impressions are just first impressions.

Click to expand...

That statement, wow, just wow.

Although South Dakota is a barren wasteland full of fat, dumb rednecks, seeing Mount Rushmore was an awesome and fun experience.[/QUOTE]

Italy IS dirty, or at least parts of it are. Rome and Naples are pretty trashy. The graphitti in Rome made me want to cry a bit. As someone who lives in an area where the oldest buildings are maybe 150 years old, and are shacks by any other name, it blows me away how people could vandalize buildings that are thousands of years old.[/QUOTE]

And South Dakota is a barren wasteland full of fat, dumb rednecks...

She's making that claim about an entire country, which is not true.[/QUOTE]

It's true. I saw an awful lot of that country. If you were in Sodak I doubt you strayed from the interstate like the rest of the slack jawed tourists who come through here.

You bring so much to a conversation as usual.[/QUOTE]

I'm not the sheltered idiot making generalizations about entire countries based on some People to People excursion I had to a few cities. What you're doing is akin to someone visiting the U.S. and saying that the entire country is noisy and dirty because they visited New York City, Philadelphia, and Washington D.C.[/QUOTE]

You have absolutely no idea what I did or where I went on my trip. But as usual you aren't interested in finding anything out you just want to start a fight because that's how you are. I mean what you said about Sodak may have been your first impression but that's why you fit into the group of people not smart enough to learn what is actually going on and just sticking with their first impressions.

You often say I'm sheltered or I don't know what life is like for other people (other people of course meaning you) but you don't know what it's like to live in Sodak either. So shut your pie hole.

Also, way to miss AND play into my point about first impressions at the same time. Well done.

makare;454219][QUOTE=Chazwozel;454213][QUOTE=makare;454211][QUOTE=Chazwozel;454207][QUOTE=Necronic;454205][QUOTE=Chazwozel;454192][QUOTE=makare said:

My point is you bitch about the US A LOT. The government does a lot of stupid shit and it sucks but that doesn't mean the US is bad. If people are not smart enough to get past first impressions and actually get to know people and what actually makes the US the US, whose shortcoming is that?

When I first went to Italy I hated it. It was dirty, noisy and annoying. I probably would have preferred just getting back on the plane and going home. But I didn't and I learned that although Italy IS dirty, noisy and annoying it is also awesome and it was a fun experience. First impressions are just first impressions.

Click to expand...

That statement, wow, just wow.

Although South Dakota is a barren wasteland full of fat, dumb rednecks, seeing Mount Rushmore was an awesome and fun experience.[/QUOTE]

Italy IS dirty, or at least parts of it are. Rome and Naples are pretty trashy. The graphitti in Rome made me want to cry a bit. As someone who lives in an area where the oldest buildings are maybe 150 years old, and are shacks by any other name, it blows me away how people could vandalize buildings that are thousands of years old.[/QUOTE]

And South Dakota is a barren wasteland full of fat, dumb rednecks...

She's making that claim about an entire country, which is not true.[/QUOTE]

It's true. I saw an awful lot of that country. If you were in Sodak I doubt you strayed from the interstate like the rest of the slack jawed tourists who come through here.

You bring so much to a conversation as usual.[/QUOTE]

I'm not the sheltered idiot making generalizations about entire countries based on some People to People excursion I had to a few cities. What you're doing is akin to someone visiting the U.S. and saying that the entire country is noisy and dirty because they visited New York City, Philadelphia, and Washington D.C.[/QUOTE]

You have absolutely no idea what I did or where I went on my trip. But as usual you aren't interested in finding anything out you just want to start a fight because that's how you are. I mean what you said about Sodak may have been your first impression but that's why you fit into the group of people not smart enough to learn what is actually going on and just sticking with their first impressions.

You often say I'm sheltered or I don't know what life is like for other people (other people of course meaning you) but you don't know what it's like to live in Sodak either. So shut your pie hole.

Also, way to miss AND play into my point about first impressions at the same time. Well done.[/QUOTE]

Life in South Dakota...

lol

Yeah sometime you'll have to explain why the only people who get to be people are the ones who live like you do.

makare said:

Yeah sometime you'll have to explain why the only people who get to be people are the ones who live like you do.

Click to expand...

Ask all those damn noisy, dirty Italians.

It was my understanding that the Dakota's weren't full of anything. Except maybe buffalo.

Covar said:

It was my understanding that the Dakota's weren't full of anything. Except maybe buffalo.

Click to expand...

I hear they're not as noisy or dirty as Italy though.

Chazwozel;454227][QUOTE=makare said:

Yeah sometime you'll have to explain why the only people who get to be people are the ones who live like you do.

Click to expand...

Ask all those damn noisy, dirty Italians.[/QUOTE]

I never said the Italians weren't people. I said the country was dirty and noise which it is. Just like Sodak is flat and if you refuse to leave the interstate, barren looking.

I see we are playing "Chaz knows he is wrong but has to dick it up to save face" again.

Well have fun with that. I retire from that game.

So... back to TSA.

makare;454230][QUOTE=Chazwozel;454227][QUOTE=makare said:

Yeah sometime you'll have to explain why the only people who get to be people are the ones who live like you do.

Click to expand...

Ask all those damn noisy, dirty Italians.[/QUOTE]

I never said the Italians weren't people. I said the country was dirty and noise which it is. Just like Sodak is flat and if you refuse to leave the interstate, barren looking.

I see we are playing "Chaz knows he is wrong but has to dick it up to save face" again.

Well have fun with that. I retire from that game.[/QUOTE]

I like the part where you make an horribly ignorant comment and then turn it around to make me look like the bad guy. I'm just shoveling your bullshit right back at you.

---------- Post added at 05:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:24 PM ----------

Chibibar said:

So... back to TSA.

Click to expand...

I hear TSA doesn't really frisk Itallians, on the count that they're noisy and dirty (probably kinda smelly too).

When one senator pointed out that there were 50,000 Cattle Guards in South Dakota, another immediately drafted a bill to cut the number in half. Upon hearing of this President Obama insisted the laid off Cattle Guards would be retrained.

First Lady Puffinstuff said:

When one senator pointed out that there were 50,000 Cattle Guards in South Dakota, another immediately drafted a bill to cut the number in half. Upon hearing of this President Obama insisted the laid off Cattle Guards would be retrained.

Click to expand...

South Dakota has 50,000 anything?

snopes.com: Firing of Cattle Guards

Obama is funny and the voodoo behind cattle guards is also funny.

Chazwozel;454241][QUOTE=First Lady Puffinstuff said:

When one senator pointed out that there were 50,000 Cattle Guards in South Dakota, another immediately drafted a bill to cut the number in half. Upon hearing of this President Obama insisted the laid off Cattle Guards would be retrained.

Click to expand...

South Dakota has 50,000 anything?

snopes.com: Firing of Cattle Guards[/QUOTE]

Way to ruin a good joke.

:humph:

I would say a lot of Italy is very pretty (Amalfi Coast/Cinque Terra) but its also pretty dirty in a lot of places. I was surprised to find out that the Tuscan region has really bad smog.

Now, to be fair to both sides, I also was under the impression that South Dakota was one of those states whose only use is as a location for missile silos.

I would say Sodak is more a recreational state for people who like the outdoors. Besides farming/ranching tourism is our big industry. People visit from all over the world to hunt, fish and camp. If you are the kind of person who is unable to entertain yourself and you need constant outside stimulus then I would never say Sodak is a place to go. But if you like quiet and the outdoors it's awesome.

It's kind of like Alaska.. we even have our own Palin now. Sigh

I've heard that a lot of the reason for these new TSA procedures was because under strict testing, TSA officials were able to smuggle items past the inspectors. So given that they are continuously checking to see how effective the inspections really are, I wonder if they have determined an average figure for bribing a TSA inspector. As previous examples have shown the procedures and technology work, the mistakes are being made by people, so why would any serious terrorist not seek to exploit that weak link and just bride their weapons on board?

No people just assume I don't have experience in the world because I live in South Dakota, which makes no sense. But if that's what they want to think it sure doesn't help their arguments so it doesn't matter to me.

Well, 90% percent of what you write makes you sound like a condescending jackass. I don't know if you actually are one but it is definitely the vibe you are giving off.

Well I figured I'd give you at least ten of every 100 posts NOT sounding that way. That may be high low. It's just an estimate.

how about you pm me some of these posts I make and explain why they make me sound sheltered and we'll discuss it like rational people.

mr_thehun said:

...and America, Listen to the Israelis, they know about terrorism The 'Israelification' of airports: High security, little bother - thestar.com

Click to expand...

GasBandit posted that in the political forum. It's got some great points. And I think Necronic is correct when he says (paraphrasing) that it's not so much what the TSA does as it is how they do it; some better customer service skills could go a long way here.

I think DA is right about the whole thing though. No one wants to stand up and say it is unnecessary because if something did happen that is the person who would be blamed. That's why I think the business angle is the way to go. Don't make it about personal invasion or security. Make it about infringing on businesses rights to conduct business. I really think that is the way to go.

If any of you are U.S. citizens with a few hours to spare after the return flight, this sounds like good ol' fashioned fun. You Don't Need to See His Identification – NO BLASTERS!

mr_thehun said:

It's a broken system that needs to be fixed, because it doesn't increase security effectively

Click to expand...

But you admit that it does increase security?

---------- Post added at 08:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:36 AM ----------

Denbrought said:

If any of you are U.S. citizens with a few hours to spare after the return flight, this sounds like good ol' fashioned fun. You Don't Need to See His Identification – NO BLASTERS!

Click to expand...

That is awesome. It took real balls to make sure no one touched his.

First Lady Puffinstuff;454493][QUOTE=mr_thehun said:

It's a broken system that needs to be fixed, because it doesn't increase security effectively

Click to expand...

But you admit that it does increase security?

---------- Post added at 08:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:36 AM ----------

Denbrought said:

If any of you are U.S. citizens with a few hours to spare after the return flight, this sounds like good ol' fashioned fun. You Don't Need to See His Identification – NO BLASTERS!

Click to expand...

That is awesome. It took real balls to make sure no one touched his.[/QUOTE]

hehe.. good read.

Tress;454364][QUOTE=mr_thehun said:

...and America, Listen to the Israelis, they know about terrorism The 'Israelification' of airports: High security, little bother - thestar.com

Click to expand...

GasBandit posted that in the political forum. It's got some great points. And I think Necronic is correct when he says (paraphrasing) that it's not so much what the TSA does as it is how they do it; some better customer service skills could go a long way here.[/QUOTE]

TSA would go a long way if they'd stop hiring every dumbass who shouldn't even be a mall cop.

Tress;454364][QUOTE=mr_thehun said:

...and America, Listen to the Israelis, they know about terrorism The 'Israelification' of airports: High security, little bother - thestar.com

Click to expand...

GasBandit posted that in the political forum. It's got some great points. And I think Necronic is correct when he says (paraphrasing) that it's not so much what the TSA does as it is how they do it; some better customer service skills could go a long way here.[/QUOTE]

Israel has one (1) international airport. In that one (1) airport, they have three (3) levels of security, a couple dozen (12x) profilers, highly-armed and highly-trained guards (a lot) and thirty (30) years of experience dealing in a war-zone. Israel is also the size of Vancouver island or New Jersey with a population of 7,000,000, about the same size as Virginia.

The US has over four hundred (400) international airports, is the third largest country by size in the world, has over 300 million people living within her borders. The "Israelification" of US airports isn't just unfeasible, it's silly to even dream of.

If they want to stop 'terrorists', pull every Middle Eastern male between the ages of 15-60 out of the lineup and search them. But that's just as unfeasible as the Israeli solution.

But the article does raise a very valid concept; instead of looking for the tools of the enemy, look for the enemy instead.

HCGLNS said:

But the article does raise a very valid concept; instead of looking for the tools of the enemy, look for the enemy instead.

Click to expand...

Yeah, that's what I took away from it. I think the TSA would benefit from this approach.

Tress;454564][QUOTE=HCGLNS said:

But the article does raise a very valid concept; instead of looking for the tools of the enemy, look for the enemy instead.

Click to expand...

Yeah, that's what I took away from it. I think the TSA would benefit from this approach.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but that requires competent and well-trained employees; two adjectives not commonly associated with the TSA

Adammon;454544][QUOTE=Tress;454364][QUOTE=mr_thehun said:

...and America, Listen to the Israelis, they know about terrorism The 'Israelification' of airports: High security, little bother - thestar.com

Click to expand...

GasBandit posted that in the political forum. It's got some great points. And I think Necronic is correct when he says (paraphrasing) that it's not so much what the TSA does as it is how they do it; some better customer service skills could go a long way here.[/QUOTE]

Israel has one (1) international airport. In that one (1) airport, they have three (3) levels of security, a couple dozen (12x) profilers, highly-armed and highly-trained guards (a lot) and thirty (30) years of experience dealing in a war-zone. Israel is also the size of Vancouver island or New Jersey with a population of 7,000,000, about the same size as Virginia.

The US has over four hundred (400) international airports, is the third largest country by size in the world, has over 300 million people living within her borders. The "Israelification" of US airports isn't just unfeasible, it's silly to even dream of.

If they want to stop 'terrorists', pull every Middle Eastern male between the ages of 15-60 out of the lineup and search them. But that's just as unfeasible as the Israeli solution.[/QUOTE]

Yea, but each and every single person will need to check in at the airport to get a ticket pass (whatever you call it) most will deal with an agent. Even at those kiosk, there is an agent there. All they need to do is train the ticket agent to ask proper questions and eye contact (same method as Israelification)

Now, there are Airport Police around to give tickets to illegal parking at the terminal. They can also keep an eye out and watch the people coming in and out of the airport (mainly in)

Baggage check personal (speed check in service) can also be train to look at people and notify suspicious person or package.

If we can afford over 100k scanning units, I'm sure we can afford those blast proof containers for bomb disposal.

It is not "that hard" per se, but the companies really need to setup in training.

"last line of defense" would also be the person taking your ticket and scan/tearing them. And you can have one other person at the airplane door looking at each person too.

Of course this will help if the "no fly list" is available to ALL airline so when people reserve/purchase tickets, they won't be able to get a ticket to pass security.

Chibibar;454512][QUOTE=First Lady Puffinstuff;454493][QUOTE=mr_thehun said:

It's a broken system that needs to be fixed, because it doesn't increase security effectively

Click to expand...

But you admit that it does increase security?

---------- Post added at 08:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:36 AM ----------

Denbrought said:

If any of you are U.S. citizens with a few hours to spare after the return flight, this sounds like good ol' fashioned fun. You Don't Need to See His Identification – NO BLASTERS!

Click to expand...

That is awesome. It took real balls to make sure no one touched his.[/QUOTE]

hehe.. good read.[/QUOTE]


And now the TSA is making an example out of him...

» TSA to Investigate American Citizen Who Refused Body Scan - Big Government

Chazwozel said:

And now the TSA is making an example out of him...

» TSA to Investigate American Citizen Who Refused Body Scan - Big Government

Click to expand...

Fine him for disruption? can a fine be challenge?

Most likely his efforts will not result in a fine, but him being placed on the no-fly list. The protest I don't understand is the guy who stripped before the pat down and refused to put his clothes back on so they could proceed with patting him down. Why not just check his clothes and let him move on?

I do like the suggestion at the end of that article to pay the fine in pennies though.

Baerdog said:

I do like the suggestion at the end of that article to pay the fine in pennies though.

Click to expand...

No, no, no. We are not having that thread again. Nope. :humph:

11 Reasons the TSA is NOT Making Us Safer, and Why It Needs to be Reformed NOW

9 10 and 11 is a bit far-fetched (as Chaz has stated about the radiation and such) but I do agree from 1 to 8 to an extent.

And once again, European countries are doing it better than us.

Travel | U.S. body-scan technology used by Dutch is better than ours | Seattle Times Newspaper

IronBrig4 said:

And once again, European countries are doing it better than us.

Travel | U.S. body-scan technology used by Dutch is better than ours | Seattle Times Newspaper

Click to expand...

or become an official (federal level) and you can skip altogether!!!
TSA: Some gov't officials to skip airport security - Yahoo! News
(this is in tongue and cheek. I know that most of these officials have high security clearance so don't need to submit to regular screen that we peasant have to deal with)

Don't touch my junk: TSA workers face a tough job - Yahoo! News

now the TSA side

---------- Post added at 05:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:18 PM ----------

IronBrig4 said:

And once again, European countries are doing it better than us.

Travel | U.S. body-scan technology used by Dutch is better than ours | Seattle Times Newspaper

Click to expand...

Heh. I figure something better have come along. They even use the generic people icon.

On Countdown this evening was an airline pilot who said we have to stop treating every infant, elderly, and on-duty flight crew as a terror suspect.

He was followed by a member of an anti-terror think tank who said she agreed with everything the pilot just said, which was why we had to continue to treat every infant, elderly, and on-duty flight crew as a terror suspect.

Chibibar said:

11 Reasons the TSA is NOT Making Us Safer, and Why It Needs to be Reformed NOW

9 10 and 11 is a bit far-fetched (as Chaz has stated about the radiation and such) but I do agree from 1 to 8 to an extent.

Click to expand...

Whoa whoa whoa, don't put words in my mouth. I have no idea what the long term effects of those scanners for daily travelers could be.

Chazwozel;454729][QUOTE=Chibibar said:

11 Reasons the TSA is NOT Making Us Safer, and Why It Needs to be Reformed NOW

9 10 and 11 is a bit far-fetched (as Chaz has stated about the radiation and such) but I do agree from 1 to 8 to an extent.

Click to expand...

Whoa whoa whoa, don't put words in my mouth. I have no idea what the long term effects of those scanners for daily travelers could be.[/QUOTE]

Sorry That is the reason I put down a bit far-fetched. I don't think anyone knows the long term effect, if they did (i.e. cause cancer) I'm sure someone would have put a stop on putting these machines out. It would be an interesting headline "Giving American Cancer while protection its country"

You see, this is what I was worried about with this whole "new, invasive screening" thing. I don't really care if someone sees an image of me nude on a screen because when I travel I wear as little clothing as possible (read: socks, slip on shoes, pajama bottoms, boxers, t-shirt, jacket) so that a) all I have to do is slip off my shoes and jacket before going through the scanners and b) Once I remove my shoes the only metal I'm wearing is the nickel-titanium retainer that's glued to my bottom teeth. And, while I would certainly be uncomfortable getting a pat down - I don't want some strange guy touching my junk - it wouldn't be the end of the world to me.

No, what I was worried about was what was going to be done to honest, upstanding American (or any nationality really) citizens who decided they didn't want to go through the scanners. If what this blog post says is true - and I haven't seen any other sources so for the time being I'm taking it with a grain of salt, then I certainly take offense to the fact that regardless of the fact that I am a decent, law-abiding American citizen; an Eagle Scout; someone who has never committed, been accused of, or been convicted of a crime more heinous than driving too fast; a tax-payer; a registered voter; etc, etc., I can be labeled as a "domestic extremist."

Does this mean that I'm going to be put on a no-fly list? Will I be selected for additional screening every time I fly? Will my name be put on a government watch-list, making it even harder for me to find a job, buy a house, get a loan, open a business, etc.? Because if so, then by all means, count me as an extremist - just let me know what options I have for taking full advantage of my new extremist label.

You want to search me in lieu of a scan, go right ahead. Get a big ol' heaping helping of my junk, too. Just don't be shocked when I start making off-color comments about your technique and offering friendly suggestions about locations you might have missed.

Having worked security as well as police, I can sympathise with the TSA guys who are being handed a shit sandwich and being expected to serve it up to the public - I've never had a bad experience with an individual employee, as all have been courteous and professional in their dealings with me.

That being said, the organization is going to be in for a shit-storm of epic proportions, and soon.

Gared said:

You see, this is what I was worried about with this whole "new, invasive screening" thing. I don't really care if someone sees an image of me nude on a screen because when I travel I wear as little clothing as possible (read: socks, slip on shoes, pajama bottoms, boxers, t-shirt, jacket) so that a) all I have to do is slip off my shoes and jacket before going through the scanners and b) Once I remove my shoes the only metal I'm wearing is the nickel-titanium retainer that's glued to my bottom teeth. And, while I would certainly be uncomfortable getting a pat down - I don't want some strange guy touching my junk - it wouldn't be the end of the world to me.

No, what I was worried about was what was going to be done to honest, upstanding American (or any nationality really) citizens who decided they didn't want to go through the scanners. If what this blog post says is true - and I haven't seen any other sources so for the time being I'm taking it with a grain of salt, then I certainly take offense to the fact that regardless of the fact that I am a decent, law-abiding American citizen; an Eagle Scout; someone who has never committed, been accused of, or been convicted of a crime more heinous than driving too fast; a tax-payer; a registered voter; etc, etc., I can be labeled as a "domestic extremist."

Does this mean that I'm going to be put on a no-fly list? Will I be selected for additional screening every time I fly? Will my name be put on a government watch-list, making it even harder for me to find a job, buy a house, get a loan, open a business, etc.? Because if so, then by all means, count me as an extremist - just let me know what options I have for taking full advantage of my new extremist label.

Click to expand...

The site you linked to (and I know you noted that it's the only source you've read and were reserving total judgment) is sort of a crazy conspiracy anti-government wingnut site. We're talking people who stockpile food for the coming collapse of the world, believe in the new world order, 9/11 was a government plot kind of weirdos. Basically I'm just saying maybe instead of grain, take it with a box of salt.

mr_thehun said:

“any person, group or alternative media source” that actively objects to, causes others to object to, supports and/or elicits support for anyone who engages in such travel disruptions at U.S. airports in response to the enhanced security procedures.

Click to expand...

So, complaining about it on a forum can also get you labeled as a domestic extremist? Yay, freedom of speech!

Click to expand...

So be it. I guess I'm a domestic extremist.

DA's too old to be EXTREME.

He could be extremely old.

I don't even get the domestic part, so I guess I'm just an extremist :<

Den is a foreign extremist and a major threat to the American way of life.

Let's deprive him of kitties and lock him in a small room with a tv that shows nothing but the real housewives of wherever the fuck

makare said:

Let's deprive him of kitties and lock him in a small room with a tv that shows nothing but the real housewives of wherever the fuck

Click to expand...

Eh, it's still better than having to watch Teletubbies. Marginally so, but still.

Now if you will excuse me, I have a pea soup bomb to finish...

makare said:

Let's deprive him of kitties and lock him in a small room with a tv that shows nothing but the real housewives of wherever the fuck

Click to expand...

Maybe alternate between that and shows about dogs.

Y'all're horrible people ;__;

Baerdog;455409][QUOTE=makare said:

Let's deprive him of kitties and lock him in a small room with a tv that shows nothing but the real housewives of wherever the fuck

Click to expand...

Maybe alternate between that and shows about dogs.[/QUOTE]

I dunno, Dog Whisperer can be mighty entertaining.... for serious....

Jiarn;455539][QUOTE=Baerdog;455409][QUOTE=makare said:

Let's deprive him of kitties and lock him in a small room with a tv that shows nothing but the real housewives of wherever the fuck

Click to expand...

Maybe alternate between that and shows about dogs.[/QUOTE]

I dunno, Dog Whisperer can be mighty entertaining.... for serious....[/QUOTE]

Baer loves dogs. I don't know how he feels about shows about dogs but the point of his statement was that Den is a dog hater. So for Den it would be horrible.

Exactly. For Den it would be more terrible than if someone had stolen his 40 cakes.

My Uncle forwarded me an idea about how to solve the whole bombs on planes issue:

All we need to do is develop a booth that you can step into that will not X-ray you, but will detonate any explosive device you may have hidden on or in your body. The explosion will be contained within the sealed booth. This would be a win-win for everyone. There would be none of this crap about racial profiling and the device would eliminate long and expensive trials.

This is so simple that it's brilliant. I can see it now: you're in the airport terminal and you hear a muffled explosion. Shortly thereafter an announcement comes over the PA system, "Attention standby passengers, we now have a seat available"

Click to expand...

Hilarious

General Specific said:

My Uncle forwarded me an idea about how to solve the whole bombs on planes issue:

All we need to do is develop a booth that you can step into that will not X-ray you, but will detonate any explosive device you may have hidden on or in your body. The explosion will be contained within the sealed booth. This would be a win-win for everyone. There would be none of this crap about racial profiling and the device would eliminate long and expensive trials.

This is so simple that it's brilliant. I can see it now: you're in the airport terminal and you hear a muffled explosion. Shortly thereafter an announcement comes over the PA system, "Attention standby passengers, we now have a seat available"

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

It is funny and make sense at the same time. I can't think of a reason why it won't work

Sure people will claim human rights issue, but then these guys CARRY explosives.

I actually don't see anything wrong with that idea. We just need to make a device that can do something like that. TO THE LAB!!!

Instant justice. Even as a future lawyer who thrives on drawn out justice..... I likey.

Sounds awesome to me. Might be hard to pull off and get the public behind...

Espy said:

Sounds awesome to me. Might be hard to pull off and get the public behind...

Click to expand...

Not to mention testing to make sure it has no other effects or doesn't ignite other materials.

escushion;457402][QUOTE=Espy said:

Sounds awesome to me. Might be hard to pull off and get the public behind...

Click to expand...

Not to mention testing to make sure it has no other effects or doesn't ignite other materials.[/QUOTE]

Well hey, I mean, you gotta crack a few eggs, omelet, yadda, yadda, yadda...

For the greater good! Only a terrorist, or terrorist supporter, would be against it.