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What does the Confederate flag mean?

Jun 19, 2015#1

Chad Sexington

I'm just here to ask a simple, non-controversial question: what does the Confederate flag mean? Should it still fly in former Confederate states? The argument I hear most often is that the Confederacy and the Civil War were about states' rights, and there's more to it than the easy narrative of slavery: but can it honestly be argued that any right was fought for more than the right to own slaves?

Is the Confederate flag a piece of history to celebrate, or a piece of history to remember with sobriety and sombreness?

Jun 19, 2015#2

DarkAudit

Consider when the southern states started adding it to their state flags. It was in the middle of the Civil Rights Movement. So one could say it means "Segregation now, segregation FOREVAH!"

Jun 19, 2015#3

GasBandit

"Fuck you I won't do what you tell me."

With a double side order of racism, smothered in not-so-plausible deniability.

Jun 19, 2015#4

Dave

Racist as fuck. The end.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Jun 19, 2015#5

Bubble181

Eh. I know I'm an outsider in this discussion, but...Well, it's a flag. It's a symbol. It can mean a lot of things, for a lot of people. Of course, it doesn't matter if *you* want to see it as a symbol of Hope and a Rebellious Spirit if other people consider it a symbol of racism and stupidity - just look at Hindus trying to reclaim the swastika.

that said, I (personally) don't consider it as bad a symbol as, for example, the Nazi flag. It still has a lot of negative connotations, though. Most of all, I equate it with a certain type of unwillingness to accept modernity and the changes time brings. Rednecks and old people talking about the Good Old Days, sure, but also simple minds in a complex world who can't accept that and try to hang on to a certain form of pride or sense of worth from "before it all got complicated". And, of course, badly tinted with some racism and some backwards stupidity.

Jun 19, 2015#6

Tinwhistler

Being from Texas, just about everyone I knew who had adoration for the confederate flag were also fairly redneck and racist.

Jun 19, 2015#7

Celt Z

A good friend of Mr. Z's, who's a great guy, but a little flighty and also ABC (American born Chinese) once said he really wanted to get a orange Charger with the flag on it and everything, like The Dukes of Hazzard. I had to explain to him why that would be a problem for a number of reasons.

Most of the time, I find Gas' answer to be true. I have also run into some people in life that just think the flag is something for southerners and have no idea what it's referring to.

Jun 19, 2015#8

jwhouk

Individuals who don't see an issue with the Confederate Battle Flag also tend to believe that the ~~Civil War~~ War Between The States was fought over States' Rights.

Jun 19, 2015#9

GasBandit

Celt Z said:
A good friend of Mr. Z's, who's a great guy, but a little flighty and also ABC (American born Chinese) once said he really wanted to get a orange Charger with the flag on it and everything, like The Dukes of Hazzard. I had to explain to him why that would be a problem for a number of reasons.

Most of the time, I find Gas' answer to be true. I have also run into some people in life that just think the flag is something for southerners and have no idea what it's referring to.

jwhouk said:
Individuals who don't see an issue with the Confederate Battle Flag also tend to believe that the ~~Civil War~~ War Between The States was fought over States' Rights.

That's the not-so-plausible deniability I was talking about. If they live south of the Mason-Dixon, they know the stars and bars have racist connotations. But they might just not care because a) they're probably at least a little bit racist themselves (and I mean even above the Avenue Q baseline), and also "Fuck you I won't do what you tell me."

Jun 19, 2015#10

sixpackshaker

Why do people get so angry over protestors desecrating the American Flag? Generally it will come down to somebody in their family died protecting that flag.

The same holds true for southerners.

Then during the Civil Rights Era the fucking Klan used it as their symbol of intimidation.

Jun 19, 2015#11

jwhouk

No one noticed that I made an important distinction there?

Jun 19, 2015#12

PatrThom

jwhouk said:
No one noticed that I made an important distinction there?

Yes, Mr. Churchill. Some of us did.

--Patrick

Jun 19, 2015#13

Hailey Knight

It's mind-boggling to me that people are still angry that 150 years ago their ancestors were no longer allowed to enslave people.

Jun 19, 2015#14

PatrThom

Zero Esc said:
It's mind-boggling to me that people are still angry that 150 years ago their ancestors were no longer allowed to enslave people.

They're just jealous that their ancestors got away with this stuff and lived it up easy but now they can't.

--Patrick

Jun 19, 2015#15

Gruebeard

Man, now I want to get an orange Charger with a Union Jack painted on the roof and drive it through Georgia. See if anybody notices.

Jun 19, 2015#16

GasBandit

Zero Esc said:
It's mind-boggling to me that people are still angry that 150 years ago their ancestors were no longer allowed to enslave people.

Jun 19, 2015#17

WasabiPoptart

Grew up with a grandfather from Alabama. In my grandparents' house there was always a confederate flag. I grew up believing this was a symbol of being from the south. It was part of my heritage and I was told to be proud of it.

Then I started learning what that all really stood for.

The "n-word" was used often by my family from the south and the north, including a great-aunt and great-uncle who gave their dog that name. My grandfather was acquainted with an African-American man he worked with who was nicknamed Sarge. My grandmother wouldn't let Sarge in the house. He was never invited to stay for dinner or even to have a glass of water. I was told Sarge was nice for a n___er man because he knew his place.

I came home from school in 4th grade complaining about a friend who slighted me some how. She had an ethnic, African-American name. My grandmother in no uncertain terms told me that colored people were not my friends. She forbade me to talk to my friend again. I argued with her, but I was a 9 year old who was afraid of being punished for back talk even if I was right.

I was not allowed to date anyone who wasn't white. When I got engaged to Aussie, I was honestly nervous that my dad would freak out on me because he's half Mexican. I was prepared to tell my dad to take a long walk off of a short bridge if that did actually happen. However, when we lived in CA my parents would not go with us to my in-laws' house. They always had some excuse for why, but I am pretty sure it's because my dad's a racist and my mom would rather stay behind than have to listen to him bitching later on.

My dad, who is from a white trash northern family, would jump right on the bandwagon about porch monkeys and spear chuckers eating watermelons and fried chicken while collecting welfare, doing drugs, and having babies by the hundreds just to scam the system for food stamps. A few years ago, he emailed me a picture of Michelle Obama as a chimpanzee. He doesn't see anything wrong with pictures like that, but me telling him that it is racist and insulting means I've lost my sense of humor.

That battle flag was never approved by the Confederate Congress as the official flag. It was not used by confederate vets groups as a symbol of their service. From what I've read, it was basically lost to history until the late 1940's during a presidential campaign. Then the KKK started using it, too. Suddenly it became a symbol of the south.

For me the "stars and bars" is a symbol of hate, stagnation, excuses, and ignorance. My family wanted me to be proud of my southern roots. Instead I am/was disgusted by how they tried to make me believe that racism, bigotry, discrimination, and prejudice should be acceptable.

Jun 19, 2015#18

Emrys

WasabiPoptart said:
Grew up with a grandfather from Alabama. In my grandparents' house there was always a confederate flag. I grew up believing this was a symbol of being from the south. It was part of my heritage and I was told to be proud of it.

Then I started learning what that all really stood for.

The "n-word" was used often by my family from the south and the north, including a great-aunt and great-uncle who gave their dog that name. My grandfather was acquainted with an African-American man he worked with who was nicknamed Sarge. My grandmother wouldn't let Sarge in the house. He was never invited to stay for dinner or even to have a glass of water. I was told Sarge was nice for a n___er man because he knew his place.

I came home from school in 4th grade complaining about a friend who slighted me some how. She had an ethnic, African-American name. My grandmother in no uncertain terms told me that colored people were not my friends. She forbade me to talk to my friend again. I argued with her, but I was a 9 year old who was afraid of being punished for back talk even if I was right.

I was not allowed to date anyone who wasn't white. When I got engaged to Aussie, I was honestly nervous that my dad would freak out on me because he's half Mexican. I was prepared to tell my dad to take a long walk off of a short bridge if that did actually happen. However, when we lived in CA my parents would not go with us to my in-laws' house. They always had some excuse for why, but I am pretty sure it's because my dad's a racist and my mom would rather stay behind than have to listen to him bitching later on.

My dad, who is from a white trash northern family, would jump right on the bandwagon about porch monkeys and spear chuckers eating watermelons and fried chicken while collecting welfare, doing drugs, and having babies by the hundreds just to scam the system for food stamps. A few years ago, he emailed me a picture of Michelle Obama as a chimpanzee. He doesn't see anything wrong with pictures like that, but me telling him that it is racist and insulting means I've lost my sense of humor.

That battle flag was never approved by the Confederate Congress as the official flag. It was not used by confederate vets groups as a symbol of their service. From what I've read, it was basically lost to history until the late 1940's during a presidential campaign. Then the KKK started using it, too. Suddenly it became a symbol of the south.

For me the "stars and bars" is a symbol of hate, stagnation, excuses, and ignorance. My family wanted me to be proud of my southern roots. Instead I am/was disgusted by how they tried to make me believe that racism, bigotry, discrimination, and prejudice should be something acceptable.

Are you my long-lost cousin?

Jun 19, 2015#19

WasabiPoptart

If we're not related, then I'm willing to adopt you and your army of doomweasels. I could use someone else in my family life that I could look at and say "Do you believe this shit?!?" other than Aussie.

Jun 19, 2015#20

Emrys

WasabiPoptart said:
If we're not related, then I'm willing to adopt you and your army of doomweasels. I could use someone else in my family life that I could look at and say "Do you believe this shit?!?" other than Aussie.

Ma cousine!

And yeah, my family does pretty much the same crap. The overwhelming heat and humidity wasn't the only thing I was getting away from when I left for Canada.

Jun 20, 2015#21

WasabiPoptart

Emrys said:
Ma cousine!

And yeah, my family does pretty much the same crap. The overwhelming heat and humidity wasn't the only thing I was getting away from when I left for Canada.

Ma cousine! Trois bises!

I hear ya. We're not just staying in Hawaii for the beaches and weather.

Jun 20, 2015#22

drifter

It's for the spam musubi, isn't it?

Jun 20, 2015#23

WasabiPoptart

drifter said:
It's for the spam musubi, isn't it?

No. Well, yes. *hangs head* It's so ono.

Jun 20, 2015#24

Ravenpoe

I live in a place called Dixie County. The confederate flag is a useful tool telling me who to avoid.

Turns out, it's most of the people around here.

Jun 20, 2015#25

Eriol

Very off topic:

WasabiPoptart said:
No. Well, yes. *hangs head* It's so ono.

The MC at the luau we went to was narrating at a certain point and was teaching us how "ono" meant "good/great" in Hawaiian and then said:
Rice pudding is ono! Poi is 'Oh No!'

He was a pretty good MC.

Jun 20, 2015#26

Tiger Tsang

"So that flag you're flying is not you being a racist?"

"HELL NO, MAN. *insert warrgarble here*"

"So I guess you're a big supporter of TREASON and FAILURE?" *Spock eyebrow and walk away*

Jun 20, 2015#27

Dave

What's really weird about it is the disconnect in some people. My former neighbor, Charlie, had the flag tattooed on his arm, yet he was the nicest guy and would talk/hang around with anyone. He didn't understand how the flag was racist and justified it by his pride in it and he not being racist. And he really wasn't.

Jun 20, 2015#28

GasBandit

Dave said:
What's really weird about it is the disconnect in some people. My former neighbor, Charlie, had the flag tattooed on his arm, yet he was the nicest guy and would talk/hang around with anyone. He didn't understand how the flag was racist and justified it by his pride in it and he not being racist. And he really wasn't.

"Porch monkey. We're taking it back!"

Jun 20, 2015#29

PatrThom

WasabiPoptart said:
it became a symbol of the south.

For me the "stars and bars" is a symbol of hate, stagnation, excuses, and ignorance.

To be fair, that is a pretty good description of much of the South.

--Patrick

Jun 20, 2015#30

Terrik

No, it isn't.

Jun 20, 2015#31

GasBandit

Depends on your definitions of "much" and "south." if you mean a non trivial portion (but not necessarily a majority) of Louisiana through Georgia, then ok... But if you mean the majority of Arizona through Florida and then up to Virginia, no.

Jun 20, 2015#32

PatrThom

Terrik said:
No, it isn't.

It may not be as true any more, but it's as much a part of "The South" as Detroit's blight, L.A.'s gang violence, Chicago's gangsters, Florida's old people, or Las Vegas' showgirls.

Also: State Rep. will introduce bill to remove Confederate flag [from SC Courthouse]

--Patrick

Jun 20, 2015#33

Anonymous

Dave said:
What's really weird about it is the disconnect in some people. My former neighbor, Charlie, had the flag tattooed on his arm, yet he was the nicest guy and would talk/hang around with anyone. He didn't understand how the flag was racist and justified it by his pride in it and he not being racist. And he really wasn't.

I've met really kind, considerate, well-meaning neo-nazis. I'm overly familiar with a really kind, nice, considerate, thoughtful, intelligent child molester.
I'm not saying Charlie is a racist after all. I'm just pointing out it isn't rare for good, decent, honest folk in many ways, to be (beyond) horrible in another.

Jun 20, 2015#34

WasabiPoptart

Eriol said:
Very off topic:

The MC at the luau we went to was narrating at a certain point and was teaching us how "ono" meant "good/great" in Hawaiian and then said:
Rice pudding is ono! Poi is 'Oh No!'

He was a pretty good MC.

The MC at a luau a friend went to told them that poi is short for poison. It's meant to be eaten with very salty foods, so it's bland and gross on its own.

Jun 20, 2015#35

Mathias

Chad Sexington said:
I'm just here to ask a simple, non-controversial question: what does the Confederate flag mean? Should it still fly in former Confederate states? The argument I hear most often is that the Confederacy and the Civil War were about states' rights, and there's more to it than the easy narrative of slavery: but can it honestly be argued that any right was fought for more than the right to own slaves?

Is the Confederate flag a piece of history to celebrate, or a piece of history to remember with sobriety and sombreness?

And I would say that argument is complete and total spun bullshit. Yeah, it was fought over State's rights.... Rights for southern states to chose not to abolish slavery. Let's all get one thing straight. Slavery was the life blood of the Southern economy. The Civil War was fought to keep that gravy train rolling. Period. That's the main reason.

The Confederate flag is a traitor's flag. Southern pride my ass. You could say the same thing about running a Nazi flag up a flagpole and spouting bullshit about German ubermensch pride. I find it hilarious to see Redneck bozos boast so much love for the Stars and Stripes when it's convenient (like bashing protesters), but spit on that flag when they bust out ol' Rebel. The fucking Civil War is over. The only Southern flag that matters is the shit stained white flag, those Grey bitches raised on April 9th 1865.

Jun 21, 2015#36

Tress

I remember years ago on this very forum when I argued that the Civil War was really about slavery and not state's rights... and people shouted me down and told me I didn't know anything about history. Where are all those people now?

Jun 21, 2015#37

Gruebeard

Drinking beer with Steve Kurtz, probably.

Jun 21, 2015#38

Eriol

Tress said:
I remember years ago on this very forum when I argued that the Civil War was really about slavery and not state's rights... and people shouted me down and told me I didn't know anything about history. Where are all those people now?

/sigh. I guess a Canadian has to take this one up: TL;DR; your civil war was about screwing over the southern states economically and politically, not slavery particularly.

The north had the population and the manufacturing capacity. They couldn't push some policies friendly to their more urban and manufacturing based economies on the southern more agricultural states because of states rights. So their approach was two-pronged, 1. Control the federal government, and 2. Abolish slavery, as that would have no effect on the north, but cripple the south economically.

Basically, they were acting how they could in a TRADE war to cut the legs out from underneath their competition.

Abolition was just a convenient cover for (some) public support. Few anywhere in the U.S.A. at the time believed in anything resembling equality. Hence why FEDERAL laws were passed in the years leading up to that war supporting that slavery was OK specifically. There north didn't give a damn as long as the south stayed OK with staying in the union.

Basically it's more plausible as a power grab from the north than a fight for freedom for slaves given all the other subsequent legal discrimination in the USA after that. The power grab just fits the historical record better IMO.

So yes, some people do argue that. It's not popular, but it is argued.

Jun 21, 2015#39

Tress

Eriol said:
/sigh. I guess a Canadian has to take this one up: TL;DR; your civil war was about screwing over the southern states economically and politically, not slavery particularly.

The north had the population and the manufacturing capacity. They couldn't push some policies friendly to their more urban and manufacturing based economies on the southern more agricultural states because of states rights. So their approach was two-pronged, 1. Control the federal government, and 2. Abolish slavery, as that would have no effect on the north, but cripple the south economically.

Basically, they were acting how they could in a TRADE war to cut the legs out from underneath their competition.

Abolition was just a convenient cover for (some) public support. Few anywhere in the U.S.A. at the time believed in anything resembling equality. Hence why FEDERAL laws were passed in the years leading up to that war supporting that slavery was OK specifically. There north didn't give a damn as long as the south stayed OK with staying in the union.

Basically it's more plausible as a power grab from the north than a fight for freedom for slaves given all the other subsequent legal discrimination in the USA after that. The power grab just fits the historical record better IMO.

So yes, some people do argue that. It's not popular, but it is argued.

I'm well aware of the argument. I'm a history teacher. But what you posted is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about rabid, foaming-at-the-mouth bullshit like "You don't know what the fuck you're talking about" and "I get tired of Northerns like you twisting facts blah blah blah". That's what is oddly missing here.

Jun 21, 2015#40

Bubble181

Lucky for us someone explains properly, huh?

Jun 21, 2015#41

sixpackshaker

Tress said:
I remember years ago on this very forum when I argued that the Civil War was really about slavery and not state's rights... and people shouted me down and told me I didn't know anything about history. Where are all those people now?

That discussion was about the war, this discussion is about the flag. I was just leaving the northern bigots to their little games. There is no use twisting a knife in people that are hurt.

Jun 21, 2015#42

Hailey Knight

Mathias said:
The fucking Civil War is over. The only Southern flag that matters is the shit stained white flag, those Grey bitches raised on April 9th 1865.

I'll probably be using some form of this in the future, thank you.

Jun 21, 2015#43

GasBandit

Tress said:
I'm well aware of the argument. I'm a history teacher. But what you posted is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about rabid, foaming-at-the-mouth bullshit like "You don't know what the fuck you're talking about" and "I get tired of Northerns like you twisting facts blah blah blah". That's what is oddly missing here.

I tried to subtly hint it earlier with my simpsons video clip, but I wasn't looking to shout anybody down.

Jun 21, 2015#44

figmentPez

Chad Sexington said:
I'm just here to ask a simple, non-controversial question: what does the Confederate flag mean? Should it still fly in former Confederate states? The argument I hear most often is that the Confederacy and the Civil War were about states' rights, and there's more to it than the easy narrative of slavery: but can it honestly be argued that any right was fought for more than the right to own slaves?

Is the Confederate flag a piece of history to celebrate, or a piece of history to remember with sobriety and sombreness?

Which flag are we talking about?

Because this is the battle flag of the Army of Tennessee:

And this is, I think, the final flag of the Confederate States of America:

The latter is most decidedly racist, because the creator of that flag said so himself:
"As a people, we are fighting to maintain the heaven ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored rate ; a white flag would thus be emblematic of our cause..."
Which is why it has a large white field on it. He wanted the world to hail it as the "White Man's Flag". That this flag was adopted should make it pretty damn clear that the Confederacy was founded on the idea of racism, and wanted to wave their racism around as their banner.

However, I can't find anything definitive about the Army of Tennessee's flag being born of such blatant racism. It's still possible, just not as cut and dried.

Jun 21, 2015#45

DarkAudit

figmentPez said:
just not as cut and dried.

Sorry. I call bullshit. Call it the "battle flag of the army of Tennessee," call it the "Confederate naval jack." It's all a bunch of semantics and avoiding the issue. Whatever you want to call it, that particular design became a symbol of official racism in the 50s and 60s when the Deep South states added it to their own flags. And gradually, as such institutionalized racism became less and less acceptable, those same states began to remove the design from their flags.

They're the same states that voted for Thurmond for president in '48, and Wallace in '68.

tl;dr: stop hair-splitting. It's racist.

Jun 21, 2015#46

blotsfan

figmentPez said:
Because this is the battle flag of the Army of Tennessee:

I would bet anything that if someone showed you that flag, your first thought would not be "oh, the battle flag of the army of tennessee."

Jun 21, 2015#47

jwhouk

That's actually the flag of the Army of Northern Virginia - aka Lee's Army.

Jun 21, 2015#48

figmentPez

DarkAudit said:
Sorry. I call bullshit.

tl;dr: stop hair-splitting. It's racist.

All I'm saying is that I don't know the mind of the guy who created the flag of the Army of Tennessee. It's easy to see what the flag has become, and that part is cut and dried. However, I'm not going to say that the flag was created with that purpose, the way the later flags of the Confederacy were. I don't even know how old the flag for the Army of Tennessee is.[DOUBLEPOST=1434942513,1434942397][/DOUBLEPOST]

jwhouk said:
That's actually the flag of the Army of Northern Virginia - aka Lee's Army.

Wikipedia says that this is the flag of the Army of Northern Virginia

Jun 21, 2015#49

PatrThom

TIL: Sooooo many flags.

--Patrick

Jun 21, 2015#50

figmentPez

blotsfan said:
I would bet anything that if someone showed you that flag, your first thought would not be "oh, the battle flag of the army of tennessee."

I only made the distinction because there was blatant racism from the creator of the actual flag of the Confederacy, and I wanted to be clear about which flag I was talking about when I said the creator made it to be a symbol of white supremacy.

Jun 22, 2015#51

drawn_inward

Mathias said:
Let's all get one thing straight. Slavery was the life blood of the Southern economy. The Civil War was fought to keep that gravy train rolling. Period. That's the main reason.

This is sort of semantics, but slavery at the point of the civil war had already existed for nearly 200 years. So, slavery was the life-blood for the entire U.S. The North had just as much blood on their hands as the South. If all the slave money stayed in the South, then they would have won the war or it would have dragged on longer. So, what I am saying is the Northerners aren't the "good" guys, and the Southerners aren't the "villains".

As for the flag, U.S. slavery is such an ugly despicable period of history, and to defend anything that is close to it is insanity. It is just as bad as the general Wehrmacht and citizens of WWII Germany claiming ignorance. The confederate flag represents so much more than just where one is from. To wave it with pride is being ignorant of 200+ years of some of the most vile actions in history.

I don't think the South is a bad place. I also don't think people from NYC are jerks. It's easy to trash talk a region when you haven't been there long enough to experience it properly. There are bad spots/people where ever you go.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one’s lifetime.” —Mark Twain

Jun 22, 2015#52

GasBandit

drawn_inward said:
This is sort of semantics, but slavery at the point of the civil war had already existed for nearly 200 years. So, slavery was the life-blood for the entire U.S. The North had just as much blood on their hands as the South. If all the slave money stayed in the South, then they would have won the war or it would have dragged on longer. So, what I am saying is the Northerners aren't the "good" guys, and the Southerners aren't the "villains".

It's also a little telling that the Emancipation Proclamation came halfway through the war (instead of at the start), and only applied to slaves in states in open revolt. It wasn't a magnanimous gesture, or a moral stand - it was first and foremost a war measure. It didn't outlaw slavery, and it didn't make former slaves citizens.

Jun 22, 2015#53

Necronic

Zero Esc said:
It's mind-boggling to me that people are still angry that 150 years ago their ancestors were no longer allowed to enslave people.

What's really mind bogling is that those same people can't understand why african americans are still having problems today. I mean slavery ended 150 years ago people! More than enough time to completely recover. But still enough time to hold a meaningless grudge.

I'm from the south. I hate that flag and what it actually stands for, which is redneck pride and racism.[DOUBLEPOST=1435003659,1435003206][/DOUBLEPOST]

Eriol said:
/sigh. I guess a Canadian has to take this one up: TL;DR; your civil war was about screwing over the southern states economically and politically, not slavery particularly.

The north had the population and the manufacturing capacity. They couldn't push some policies friendly to their more urban and manufacturing based economies on the southern more agricultural states because of states rights. So their approach was two-pronged, 1. Control the federal government, and 2. Abolish slavery, as that would have no effect on the north, but cripple the south economically.

Basically, they were acting how they could in a TRADE war to cut the legs out from underneath their competition.

Abolition was just a convenient cover for (some) public support. Few anywhere in the U.S.A. at the time believed in anything resembling equality. Hence why FEDERAL laws were passed in the years leading up to that war supporting that slavery was OK specifically. There north didn't give a damn as long as the south stayed OK with staying in the union.

Basically it's more plausible as a power grab from the north than a fight for freedom for slaves given all the other subsequent legal discrimination in the USA after that. The power grab just fits the historical record better IMO.

So yes, some people do argue that. It's not popular, but it is argued.

Do you actually believe that or are you just presenting it as an example of the kind of bad argument about the civil war that Tress was bemoaning.[DOUBLEPOST=1435003967][/DOUBLEPOST]

drawn_inward said:
I don't think the South is a bad place. I also don't think people from NYC are jerks. It's easy to trash talk a region when you haven't been there long enough to experience it properly. There are bad spots/people where ever you go.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one’s lifetime.” —Mark Twain

I mean ok but Dallas is still terrible.

Jun 22, 2015#54

Hailey Knight

drawn_inward said:
I don't think the South is a bad place.

For the periods of time I've lived in the south, people have been nice to me. But I'm white, so I'm only able to experience one side of it.

Jun 23, 2015#55

figmentPez

Wal-Mart pulls all confederate battle flag merchandise from its stores

It will be interesting to see who follows suit.

Jun 23, 2015#56

PatrThom

Or who brings suit.

--Patrick

Jun 23, 2015#57

DarkAudit

PatrThom said:
Or who brings suit.

--Patrick

Private business. Can run as they wish within the confines of the law. Fuck you, next case! *BANGS GAVEL*[DOUBLEPOST=1435081889,1435081800][/DOUBLEPOST]And it just fucking figures.

Jun 23, 2015#58

Cajungal

DarkAudit said:
Private business. Can run as they wish within the confines of the law. Fuck you, next case! *BANGS GAVEL*[DOUBLEPOST=1435081889,1435081800][/DOUBLEPOST]And it just fucking figures.

That's what happens. Gun stores around here couldn't keep bullets on the shelves after Sandy Hook. People were so angry and freaked out about gun control discussions that they started hoarding. My mother in law even said, "We can't even buy bullets, because, you know, Obama."

Jun 23, 2015#59

GasBandit

Cajungal said:
That's what happens. Gun stores around here couldn't keep bullets on the shelves after Sandy Hook. People were so angry and freaked out about gun control discussions that they started hoarding. My mother in law even said, "We can't even buy bullets, because, you know, Obama."

Well, Sandy hook didn't happen until 2012, but the ammo shortage started in 08. But yes, it was because everybody thought Obama was going to institute draconian gun control/taxation laws, everybody started buying everything in sight and stockpiling.

Jun 23, 2015#60

PatrThom

You know it's bad when the people who make the DIY home reloading supplies can't even keep up with demand to make the machines that let you reload at home.
On the other hand, does this mean you will no longer be able to buy Lynyrd Skynyrd albums at Wal-Mart?

--Patrick

Jun 23, 2015#61

DarkAudit

PatrThom said:
On the other hand, does this mean you will no longer be able to buy Lynyrd Skynyrd albums at Wal-Mart?

--Patrick

One can only hope.

Jun 23, 2015#62

Bowielee

I better start stocking up on those Dukes of Hazzard Hot Wheels before they become a collector's item.

Jun 23, 2015#63

Mathias

Jun 23, 2015#64

WasabiPoptart

God ‏@TheTweetOfGod
People say the Confederate flag is a symbol of slavery, racism and oppression, but it’s also a symbol of getting your ass kicked.

Jun 23, 2015#65

PatrThom

And now Amazon, eBay, and Etsy are all banning the sale of items featuring the Confederate flag, now making it officially harder to obtain than the Nazi banner.
We're starting to cross over into Don Cheadle levels of overreaction.

--Patrick

Jun 24, 2015#66

Tress

"Don Cheadle levels of overreaction"...?

Jun 24, 2015#67

Hailey Knight

Taking it down from government buildings is a correct move that should've been the case all along as its a symbol of secession, but I feel like outright banning its sale in places is going to backfire, the way banning anything in America backfires.

Jun 24, 2015#68

blotsfan

Zero Esc said:
Taking it down from government buildings is a correct move that should've been the case all along as its a symbol of secession, but I feel like outright banning its sale in places is going to backfire, the way banning anything in America backfires.

Its not like its being made illegal. Just these companies aren't selling it.

Jun 24, 2015#69

drawn_inward

Exactly, these companies are exercising their freedom to not sell the flags. It hasn't been banned, nor is it against the law. Good for them.

Jun 24, 2015#70

Bubble181

So self-censorship due to public shaming/pressure from interest groups is ok, it's just not ok when it's the government telling you you can't?

Jun 24, 2015#71

Cajungal

Bubble181 said:
So self-censorship due to public shaming/pressure from interest groups is ok, it's just not ok when it's the government telling you you can't?

That's us.

Jun 24, 2015#72

GasBandit

Bubble181 said:
So self-censorship due to public shaming/pressure from interest groups is ok, it's just not ok when it's the government telling you you can't?

Yes.

Jun 24, 2015#73

PatrThom

Tress said:
"Don Cheadle levels of overreaction"...?

drawn_inward said:
Exactly, these companies are exercising their freedom to not sell the flags. It hasn't been banned, nor is it against the law. Good for them.

It has been banned (by Amazon, eBay, Etsy), it was just banned (shunned?) by the private sector, not by the government.

--Patrick

Jun 24, 2015#74

drawn_inward

Bubble181 said:
So self-censorship due to public shaming/pressure from interest groups is ok, it's just not ok when it's the government telling you you can't?

Censorship is not always completely evil and wrong; sometimes it's common sense. The companies are free to do this. The question of motive is certainly debatable. They've been gladly selling these items up to now.[DOUBLEPOST=1435155104,1435154915][/DOUBLEPOST]

PatrThom said:
It has been banned (by Amazon, eBay, Etsy), it was just banned (shunned?) by the private sector, not by the government.

--Patrick

My point was that it is not illegal to sell/make the flags. It is now not as easy to obtain.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...te-southern-heritage-fly-these-flags-instead/

Jun 24, 2015#75

figmentPez

Bubble181 said:
So self-censorship due to public shaming/pressure from interest groups is ok, it's just not ok when it's the government telling you you can't?

Why shouldn't it be? If Wal-Mart stops selling confederate flag merchandise, then that just means Rednecks 'R' Us can open a kiosk in the mall, or a mail-order company, and start making money from all the sales that Wal-Mart lost.

Jun 24, 2015#76

Tinwhistler

Bubble181 said:
So self-censorship due to public shaming/pressure from interest groups is ok, it's just not ok when it's the government telling you you can't?

It might seem like a fine hair to split, but it isn't.

Companies can still sell the flag if they want. And I'm sure some do. Others will recognize that it probably isn't in their interest, especially after all of attention paid to the topic.

But nobody's going to go to jail for selling the flags. The government isn't investigating anyone (well, maybe? Thanks Patriot Act). People are still free to say, think, and feel what they want. Government censorship is always a ton worse for individual freedoms than whether or not a company bows to social pressure.

Jun 24, 2015#77

Ravenpoe

Bubble181 said:
So self-censorship due to public shaming/pressure from interest groups is ok, it's just not ok when it's the government telling you you can't?

It's not self-censorship. Censorship would be a company wanting to sell the flag, and the government telling them they can't. Freedom of speech includes freedom of what not to say. These are companies who are finding that they don't like being associated with this imagery, and are deciding to distance themselves from it.

Besides, if you want a confederate flag, just go to -any- flea market in the south. You can even find blatantly racist stuff at the flea market closest to me, including KKK and Nazi paraphernalia, as well as mammies. Lots and lots of mammies.

A mammy, for those unfamiliar with the term.

Jun 24, 2015#78

drawn_inward

Ravenpoe said:
Besides, if you want a confederate flag, just go to -any- flea market in the south.

Or go visit one of my relatives on my dad's side of the family. Sadly. You could probably score some blue-ice too.

Jun 24, 2015#79

figmentPez

Ravenpoe said:
It's not self-censorship.

From the Oxford Dictionaries, "self-censorship: The exercising of control over what one says and does, especially to avoid castigation"

It's the literal definition of self-censorship. Every healthy person self-censors. We don't voice every thought that comes into our head. We don't perform every action we have the impulse to perform. Corporations perform similar forms of self-censorship.

Jun 24, 2015#80

Gruebeard

Tinwhistler said:
The government isn't investigating anyone (well, maybe? Thanks Patriot Act).

With a black president to protect, I'd assume the Secret Service is watching everyone who buys this flag (especially if they're picking up some white sheets from Walmart at the same time).

Jun 24, 2015#81

figmentPez

Warner Bros. to cease licensing 'Dukes of Hazzard' toy cars with Confederate flags

Jun 24, 2015#82

sixpackshaker

figmentPez said:
Warner Bros. to cease licensing 'Dukes of Hazzard' toy cars with Confederate flags

I have not seen one with the flag on it in years. Even the new commercial that it is in does not have General Lee or the flag on it.

Jun 24, 2015#83

PatrThom

figmentPez said:
Warner Bros. to cease licensing 'Dukes of Hazzard' toy cars with Confederate flags

How will this affect the Brent and Cole jump sequences?

--Patrick

Jun 24, 2015#84

jwhouk

Wouldn't it be funny if Kurtz draws it - and doesn't even notice?

Jun 25, 2015#85

drawn_inward

jwhouk said:
Wouldn't it be funny if Kurtz draws it - and doesn't even notice?

You mean copy and paste, amirite? :problemo:

Jun 25, 2015#86

GasBandit

I heard someone this morning saying somebody should go around to cake shops asking them to make a cake with the confederate flag on it, and if they refuse, sue them.

Jun 25, 2015#87

drawn_inward

I need the warbrgrl dog for some of my FB "friends".

Jun 25, 2015#88

Fun Size

This morning I saw a Facebook acquaintance post a celebrity defending the flag in question. What celebrity you ask?

Cooter, from The Dukes of Hazzard.

Which is good because I only trust celebrity opinions when they come from someone whose name is synonymous with female lady parts.

Jun 25, 2015#89

Gruebeard

What celebrity? I ask again.[DOUBLEPOST=1435252309,1435252022][/DOUBLEPOST]

GasBandit said:
I heard someone this morning saying somebody should go around to cake shops asking them to make a cake with the confederate flag on it, and if they refuse, sue them.

Your Honor, the plaintiff asked me to ice the cake with a secessionist flag but I refused to be a party to treason.

Jun 25, 2015#90

Null

Regardless of what it's called, the symbol commonly referred as "The Confederate Flag" or "The Rebel Flag" was rarely flown from 1865 to the 1930's, when it was adopted by the Ku Klux Klan as a symbol for their terrorism. It was not flown at government buildings across the South until the Civil Rights Movement, at which point they became staunchly adopted by anti-civil rights state leadership.

And as for the Confederacy not being all about slavery, well, let's just ask Alexander Stephens, Vice President of the CSA, in his Cornerstone Speech from 1861:

"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science. It has been so even amongst us. Many who hear me, perhaps, can recollect well, that this truth was not generally admitted, even within their day. The errors of the past generation still clung to many as late as twenty years ago. Those at the North, who still cling to these errors, with a zeal above knowledge, we justly denominate fanatics. All fanaticism springs from an aberration of the mind from a defect in reasoning. It is a species of insanity. One of the most striking characteristics of insanity, in many instances, is forming correct conclusions from fancied or erroneous premises; so with the anti-slavery fanatics. Their conclusions are right if their premises were. They assume that the negro is equal, and hence conclude that he is entitled to equal privileges and rights with the white man. If their premises were correct, their conclusions would be logical and just but their premise being wrong, their whole argument fails. I recollect once of having heard a gentleman from one of the northern States, of great power and ability, announce in the House of Representatives, with imposing effect, that we of the South would be compelled, ultimately, to yield upon this subject of slavery, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics, as it was in physics or mechanics. That the principle would ultimately prevail. That we, in maintaining slavery as it exists with us, were warring against a principle, a principle founded in nature, the principle of the equality of men. The reply I made to him was, that upon his own grounds, we should, ultimately, succeed, and that he and his associates, in this crusade against our institutions, would ultimately fail. The truth announced, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics as it was in physics and mechanics, I admitted; but told him that it was he, and those acting with him, who were warring against a principle. They were attempting to make things equal which the Creator had made unequal.

In the conflict thus far, success has been on our side, complete throughout the length and breadth of the Confederate States. It is upon this, as I have stated, our social fabric is firmly planted; and I cannot permit myself to doubt the ultimate success of a full recognition of this principle throughout the civilized and enlightened world.

As I have stated, the truth of this principle may be slow in development, as all truths are and ever have been, in the various branches of science. It was so with the principles announced by Galileo it was so with Adam Smith and his principles of political economy. It was so with Harvey, and his theory of the circulation of the blood. It is stated that not a single one of the medical profession, living at the time of the announcement of the truths made by him, admitted them. Now, they are universally acknowledged. May we not, therefore, look with confidence to the ultimate universal acknowledgment of the truths upon which our system rests? It is the first government ever instituted upon the principles in strict conformity to nature, and the ordination of Providence, in furnishing the materials of human society. Many governments have been founded upon the principle of the subordination and serfdom of certain classes of the same race; such were and are in violation of the laws of nature. Our system commits no such violation of nature’s laws. With us, all of the white race, however high or low, rich or poor, are equal in the eye of the law. Not so with the negro. Subordination is his place. He, by nature, or by the curse against Canaan, is fitted for that condition which he occupies in our system. The architect, in the construction of buildings, lays the foundation with the proper material-the granite; then comes the brick or the marble. The substratum of our society is made of the material fitted by nature for it, and by experience we know that it is best, not only for the superior, but for the inferior race, that it should be so. It is, indeed, in conformity with the ordinance of the Creator. It is not for us to inquire into the wisdom of His ordinances, or to question them. For His own purposes, He has made one race to differ from another, as He has made “one star to differ from another star in glory.” The great objects of humanity are best attained when there is conformity to His laws and decrees, in the formation of governments as well as in all things else. Our confederacy is founded upon principles in strict conformity with these laws. This stone which was rejected by the first builders “is become the chief of the corner” the real “corner-stone” in our new edifice. I have been asked, what of the future? It has been apprehended by some that we would have arrayed against us the civilized world. I care not who or how many they may be against us, when we stand upon the eternal principles of truth, if we are true to ourselves and the principles for which we contend, we are obliged to, and must triumph."

Jun 25, 2015#91

GasBandit

I don't think anyone here denies the confederacy believed in the institution of slavery. Its just not the case that its elimination was the only, or even biggest, reason for the civil war.

I mean, the Nazis killed a whole lot of Jews, but that's not why anybody went to war with Germany. It just made us all feel even more justified for doing so, ex post facto.

Gruebeard said:
What celebrity? I ask again.[DOUBLEPOST=1435252309,1435252022][/DOUBLEPOST]
Your Honor, the plaintiff asked me to ice the cake with a secessionist flag but I refused to be a party to treason.

As has been established in precedent, cakemakers are not allowed to exercise discretion of any kind when decorating.

Jun 25, 2015#92

Gruebeard

GasBandit said:
As has been established in precedent, cakemakers are not allowed to exercise discretion of any kind when decorating.

Gonna find me a hot cakemaker and make her ice the cake with a nudie pic of herself.

Jun 25, 2015#93

Fun Size

"I'd like a cake with a picture of my junk on it please."
"Sir, I'm not familiar with your 'junk'."
*Drops it on the counter*
...
"So that would be a cupcake then?"

Jun 25, 2015#94

PatrThom

Fun Size said:
"I'd like a cake with a picture of my junk on it please."
"Sir, I'm not familiar with your 'junk'."
*Drops it on the counter*
...
"So that would be a cupcake then?"

--Patrick

Jun 25, 2015#95

GasBandit

We've definitely crossed into "stupid" territory now.

Apple has banned all depictions of the confederate flag from its app store. No big deal, right?

Except there are no exceptions for historical accuracy, not even about apps or games explicitly about/depicting the Civil War.

http://techraptor.net/content/apple-bans-confederate-flag

Tim Cook's tweet about it being to "honor the lives and families of the SC victims" by "eradicating racism and removing the symbols that feed it" show how intellectually vapid he is - and hypocritical, given that iTunes still carries movies with the flag in it, like Gettysburg. Also, the Nazi flag is not similarly banned.

Also I'd just like to comment about about the likelihood of the kind of people that have pictures of Chairman Mao or Che Guevara on their walls being the loudest about speaking up about how unacceptable it is to display confederate symbolism.

Jun 25, 2015#96

Null

I think that's a really stupid, thoughtless ban. Hell, I don't even support banning the flag on historical monuments that are not part of state government. Context matters. For example, at a historical site like Vicksburg National Military Park, it's well and proper for a CSA flag, as well as the flags of the units stationed there, to be displayed. Over statehouse, however, that's a functioning part of government? No, that's inappropriate.

Jun 25, 2015#97

SpecialKO

GasBandit said:
Also I'd just like to comment about about the likelihood of the kind of people that have pictures of Chairman Mao or Che Guevara on their walls being the loudest about speaking up about how unacceptable it is to display confederate symbolism.

I'll certainly give you Che, but is Mao really a thing now? Apparently, I'm not as lefty as I thought...[DOUBLEPOST=1435266987,1435266685][/DOUBLEPOST]I don't think Tim Cook's tweet is specifically about those games, the timeline for that seems a bit off.

I suspect that some mid-level creature decided that this was the easiest way to deal with a high-level directive to keep an extra eye out for racist content, and told their outsourced foreign app store curators to just remove everything with the following 20 symbols on it, no questions asked.

Jun 25, 2015#98

GasBandit

SpecialKO said:
I'll certainly give you Che, but is Mao really a thing now? Apparently, I'm not as lefty as I thought...

White House Communications Director Anita Dunn loved her some Chairman Mao. She said he was one of her favorite political philosophers.

Jun 25, 2015#99

SpecialKO

Yeesh.

Jun 25, 2015#100

GasBandit

SpecialKO said:
I suspect that some mid-level creature decided that this was the easiest way to deal with a high-level directive to keep an extra eye out for racist content, and told their outsourced foreign app store curators to just remove everything with the following 20 symbols on it, no questions asked.

Apparently one of the developers of a civil war themed wargame had direct contact with apple representatives, and they explicitly informed him that the game could be readmitted to the app store if they removed all the confederate flags. It's in the article I linked.

Jun 25, 2015#101

SpecialKO

GasBandit said:
Apparently one of the developers of a civil war themed wargame had direct contact with apple representatives, and they explicitly informed him that the game could be readmitted to the app store if they removed all the confederate flags. It's in the article I linked.

I saw that, but dealing with the app store rarely puts in touch with anyone senior at all. I'd be really surprised if it was someone with actual authority. Your app actually has to make money for Apple to take you seriously and let you talk to someone who can actually make decisions.

Jun 25, 2015#102

WasabiPoptart

My best friend just posted this. I'm stunned to say the least. I basically wrote her an essay detailing why she is wrong and the image is ignorant. I'm beside myself.

Jun 25, 2015#103

Hailey Knight

GasBandit said:
We've definitely crossed into "stupid" territory now.

Apple has banned all depictions of the confederate flag from its app store. No big deal, right?

Except there are no exceptions for historical accuracy, not even about apps or games explicitly about/depicting the Civil War.

http://techraptor.net/content/apple-bans-confederate-flag

Tim Cook's tweet about it being to "honor the lives and families of the SC victims" by "eradicating racism and removing the symbols that feed it" show how intellectually vapid he is - and hypocritical, given that iTunes still carries movies with the flag in it, like Gettysburg. Also, the Nazi flag is not similarly banned.

Also I'd just like to comment about about the likelihood of the kind of people that have pictures of Chairman Mao or Che Guevara on their walls being the loudest about speaking up about how unacceptable it is to display confederate symbolism.

Sweeping the existence of the flag under the rug is dumb as hell. Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it, etc. And the words "eradicating racism" makes it feel like this is going to just let people once more delude themselves that racism is over and ignore the continuing problems.

Since this feels more like the thread for the Charleston shooting, I'm gonna post this next bit here. I posted it on Tumblr as well; not sure how it'll go over there, but anyway, I was on my morning bus commute and overheard this:

For clarity that these weren’t white racists, I’ll note that both people were black.
Woman: I read they invited him in.
Man: Yeah, he sat and prayed with them for an hour before he started shooting them.
Woman: You know though, if they’d had the Holy Spirit in them, they would’ve sensed he was a danger. I mean, if they were a real church, with the Holy Spirit there, they would’ve known and could’ve stopped it.
Man: I know.

What the fuck?

Jun 25, 2015#104

Null

That's *advanced* victim blaming right there.

Jun 25, 2015#105

Emrys

We need a "what the fuck?!" rating for crap like that.

Jun 25, 2015#106

jwhouk

SpecialKO said:
I'll certainly give you Che, but is Mao really a thing now? Apparently, I'm not as lefty as I thought...

Well, you know, if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao, you ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow...

Jun 25, 2015#107

PatrThom

GasBandit said:
Also, the Nazi flag is not similarly banned.

This has been my complaint about the whole situation. It seems hypocritical to ban one flag that offends people due to racist connotation but not other flags. That right there is racism, just applied to flags.

--Patrick

Jun 25, 2015#108

Bubble181

Meh. We've tried to legislate problems away by banning or removing the words for them for years. Doesn't work. Making the "existence minimum" (the bare minimum our government will give you no matter what) a "living payment" didn't change anything about the situation of our poor. Saying we couldn't use "immigrants" but had to use "allochtones"...."no wait, scrap "allochtones" and say "person of recent foreign descent" didn't change anything about racism towards people with another color. Don't say "handicapped", say "disabled". Don't say "disabled", say "differently able". Don't say....It's ridiculous.

There are times when a word has only negative meaning - nigger, kike, etc. There's a difference, though. One's an insult, the other's a descriptor that slowly got more and more baggage added to it.

Should you proudly display the confederate flag? Or the nazi flag? Or the German Reich flag, or half a dozen others like them? No. Should you be allowed to display them? To use them, appropriately, in context? Obviously. Stupid bans are stupid. Or did anyone think Wolfenstein wasn't about fighting nazis?

Jun 25, 2015#109

GasBandit

PatrThom said:
This has been my complaint about the whole situation. It seems hypocritical to ban one flag that offends people due to racist connotation but not other flags. That right there is racism, just applied to flags.

--Patrick

And even if they did open that pandora's box, there'll always be another flag, and then another, and then another that offends somebody. Hell, seems like half the stupid, butthurt, smelly, above-ground-sewer world finds the American flag offensive.

But I guess when the torches and pitchforks come out, it's not smart to be the voice of reason unless you fancy getting trampled to death. Just gotta go with the flow.

Jun 25, 2015#110

Bubble181

GasBandit said:
Hell, seems like half the stupid, butthurt, smelly, above-ground-sewer world finds the American flag offensive.

I was actually going to mention this too - plenty of people feel offended by the US flag, and the Belgian one, and half a dozen others? Whose feelings are we allowed to hurt and whose won't we?

Jun 25, 2015#111

GasBandit

Here we go, let's just offend everybody.

Jun 25, 2015#112

Bubble181

Can be made more offensive by adding a black band underneath, implying black is the inferior color.
But good job!

Jun 26, 2015#113

SpecialKO

Is anyone outside private corporations actually banning it?

Jun 26, 2015#114

Terrik

GasBandit said:
We've definitely crossed into "stupid" territory now.

Apple has banned all depictions of the confederate flag from its app store. No big deal, right?

Except there are no exceptions for historical accuracy, not even about apps or games explicitly about/depicting the Civil War.

http://techraptor.net/content/apple-bans-confederate-flag

Tim Cook's tweet about it being to "honor the lives and families of the SC victims" by "eradicating racism and removing the symbols that feed it" show how intellectually vapid he is - and hypocritical, given that iTunes still carries movies with the flag in it, like Gettysburg. Also, the Nazi flag is not similarly banned.

Also I'd just like to comment about about the likelihood of the kind of people that have pictures of Chairman Mao or Che Guevara on their walls being the loudest about speaking up about how unacceptable it is to display confederate symbolism.

Yep, and so it begins.

Jun 26, 2015#115

MindDetective

SpecialKO said:
Is anyone outside private corporations actually banning it?

I was wondering the same thing.

Jun 26, 2015#116

PatrThom

No. It's more "economic sanction" than outright ban.

--Patrick

Jun 26, 2015#117

MindDetective

PatrThom said:
No. It's more "economic sanction" than outright ban.

--Patrick

I was thinking it was more like "discontinuation" than outright ban. They are ceasing to stock on item, like they do with many, many items.

Jun 26, 2015#118

PatrThom

Yes, but they're not ceasing to stock it due to lack of demand, they're ceasing to stock it because they don't want to deal with the accompanying hullaballoo. Confederate flags aren't being treated like Meth, they're just being treated like Pauly Shore movies.

--Patrick

Jun 26, 2015#119

MindDetective

PatrThom said:
Yes, but they're not ceasing to stock it due to lack of demand, they're ceasing to stock it because they don't want to deal with the accompanying hullaballoo. Confederate flags aren't being treated like Meth, they're just being treated like Pauly Shore movies.

--Patrick

A sanction implies punishment, though (and of whom?) They are just choosing to not carry an unpopular item.

Jun 26, 2015#120

sixpackshaker

MindDetective said:
A sanction implies punishment, though (and of whom?) They are just choosing to not carry an unpopular item.

If you look at sales, it is not unpopular.

-
The one I don't understand is all the battlefields banning the sale.

Jun 26, 2015#121

Amy

GasBandit said:
Here we go, let's just offend everybody.

For a moment I was like "What's this flag about gay temples?"[DOUBLEPOST=1435349783,1435349480][/DOUBLEPOST]Also, do not google Gay Pride Swastikas.

Jun 26, 2015#122

GasBandit

Amy said:
For a moment I was like "What's this flag about gay temples?"[DOUBLEPOST=1435349783,1435349480][/DOUBLEPOST]Also, do not google Gay Pride Swastikas.

A classic:

Jun 26, 2015#123

PatrThom

Oh trust us, we could tell.

--Patrick

Jun 26, 2015#124

MindDetective

sixpackshaker said:
If you look at sales, it is not unpopular.

-
The one I don't understand is all the battlefields banning the sale.

I'm sure there was a recent spike in sales, sure...

Jun 26, 2015#125

jwhouk

GasBandit said:
Here we go, let's just offend everybody.

You forgot the Arabic script at the bottom, too.

Jun 26, 2015#126

Mathias

PatrThom said:
This has been my complaint about the whole situation. It seems hypocritical to ban one flag that offends people due to racist connotation but not other flags. That right there is racism, just applied to flags.

--Patrick

Nazi flag is illegal in Germany and France though...

Jun 26, 2015#127

figmentPez

Anyone know how the Rising Sun flag is treated in Japan? I've seen buzz lately about trying to get westerners to stop using it.

Jun 26, 2015#128

Ravenpoe

figmentPez said:
Anyone know how the Rising Sun flag is treated in Japan? I've seen buzz lately about trying to get westerners to stop using it.

Best I can find is that it's still used some in Japan (even though it's no longer the national flag) and that it also has begun to get co-opted by some extreme right-wing groups. So that's probably where the scuttlebutt is coming from.

Jun 27, 2015#129

Just Me

Mathias said:
Nazi flag is illegal in Germany and France though...

Speaking for Germany, the biggest problem we still have is with the Swastika flags. 'Softer' versions of Nazi flags are still not banned per se, which I personally think is stupid.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskriegsflagge
So you can still fly the Nazi war flag, but not the state flag. In my opinion all flags with the black, white and red imaginery should be made illegal. But then the Neonazis would just create their own version of a flag to rally in their stupidism and hate, and more legal battles would have to be fought.

Jun 27, 2015#130

PatrThom

Mathias said:
Nazi flag is illegal in Germany and France though...

My complaint is the inconsistency with which the various bans/sanctions are applied, especially when the reasoning behind it SEEMS to be less one of "we regret propagating a symbol of hatred and oppression" and more one of "we were worried we would lose sales if we did not do this."

--Patrick

Jun 30, 2015#131

PatrThom

Tom the Dancing Bug uncovers the true meaning of the Confederate Flag.

--Patrick

Jun 30, 2015#132

Mathias

PatrThom said:
My complaint is the inconsistency with which the various bans/sanctions are applied, especially when the reasoning behind it SEEMS to be less one of "we regret propagating a symbol of hatred and oppression" and more one of "we were worried we would lose sales if we did not do this."

--Patrick

Well just to be clear, the only "ban" was to remove the flag from government places. It doesn't belong there. Government place gets an American flag. What other country flies a full mast flag at a government building without the main flag anywhere in proximity. State flags are always flown lower right next to or below the American flag. The South Carolina Confederate one was by itself in a courtyard.

All other "bans" apply to vendors that don't want to associate with it. That's what everyone's bitching over. It's not illegal to fly the Confederate flag; doing so is just a proclamation of being a stupid, inbred hick.

Jun 30, 2015#133

Bowielee

Bubble181 said:
Meh. We've tried to legislate problems away by banning or removing the words for them for years. Doesn't work. Making the "existence minimum" (the bare minimum our government will give you no matter what) a "living payment" didn't change anything about the situation of our poor. Saying we couldn't use "immigrants" but had to use "allochtones"...."no wait, scrap "allochtones" and say "person of recent foreign descent" didn't change anything about racism towards people with another color. Don't say "handicapped", say "disabled". Don't say "disabled", say "differently able". Don't say....It's ridiculous.

There are times when a word has only negative meaning - African American, kike, etc. There's a difference, though. One's an insult, the other's a descriptor that slowly got more and more baggage added to it.

Should you proudly display the confederate flag? Or the nazi flag? Or the German Reich flag, or half a dozen others like them? No. Should you be allowed to display them? To use them, appropriately, in context? Obviously. Stupid bans are stupid. Or did anyone think Wolfenstein wasn't about fighting nazis?

I hope that the auto filter changed that, or do you really think that African American is a racial slur?

Jun 30, 2015#134

GasBandit

Bowielee said:
I hope that the auto filter changed that, or do you really think that African American is a racial slur?

The filter does that.

Jun 30, 2015#135

sixpackshaker

Bowielee said:
I hope that the auto filter changed that, or do you really think that African American is a racial slur?

I remember being preached to here about African American being a racist term. My eyes were rolling so fast, I got dizzy.

Jul 1, 2015#136

WasabiPoptart

A teacher at my kids' school got told off by a parent for using "y'all" since the parent believed it was a racial slur.

Jul 1, 2015#137

Bubble181

Bowielee said:
I hope that the auto filter changed that, or do you really think that African American is a racial slur?

The filter. Which I find a bit problematic - African American is a small subset of all people with a melanin handicap :troll:

(sorry, sorry....Whatever you deem the correct way of referencing someone with a skin color darker than a certain tint). Most are, after all, just plain African, or African European, or Indian, or a host of other possibilities. Admittedly, I wouldn't normally use the filtered word and I can't really see the point of it, but having it be replaced by something that's unequivocally not the smae has always irked me.

Jul 1, 2015#138

drifter

I mean, if anyone has a melanin handicap, it's white people. Have you seen the skin cancer rates?

Jul 1, 2015#139

Celt Z

WasabiPoptart said:
A teacher at my kids' school got told off by a parent for using "y'all" since the parent believed it was a racial slur.

Jul 1, 2015#140

DarkAudit

Everyone knows the proper phrase is "yinz."

Jul 1, 2015#141

figmentPez

WasabiPoptart said:
A teacher at my kids' school got told off by a parent for using "y'all" since the parent believed it was a racial slur.

I've seen a rant about how "ma'am" is a slur, because that person assumed it was short for "mammy". This person thought that children in the south had no respect for female teachers, because they said "yes, ma'am".

Jul 1, 2015#142

Tinwhistler

figmentPez said:
I've seen a rant about how "ma'am" is a slur, because that person assumed it was short for "mammy". This person thought that children in the south had no respect for female teachers, because they said "yes, ma'am".

It's short for "madam"...from brothel ownership,of course

:troll:

Jul 1, 2015#143

WasabiPoptart

DarkAudit said:
Everyone knows the proper phrase is "yinz."

All y'all talk funny.

Jul 1, 2015#144

Gruebeard

Tinwhistler said:
It's short for "madam"...from brother ownership,of course

This made no scents to me until I puzzled out your typo.

Jul 1, 2015#145

Celt Z

Gruebeard said:
This made no scents to me until I puzzled out your typo.

But how does it smell?

Jul 1, 2015#146

Gruebeard

It's such an overwhelming assault of perfume, that's all I can tell.

Jul 1, 2015#147

Tinwhistler

Gruebeard said:
This made no scents to me until I puzzled out your typo.

lol, fixed

Jul 1, 2015#148

blotsfan

WasabiPoptart said:
All y'all talk funny.

Thats just how people from Pittsburgh talk. :troll:

Jul 2, 2015#149

DarkAudit

blotsfan said:
Thats just how people from Pittsburgh talk.

Yep.

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