Cajungal
Staff member
That's us.
What does the Confederate flag mean?
- Thread starter Chad Sexington
- Start date
GasBandit
Staff member
Yes.
It has been banned (by Amazon, eBay, Etsy), it was just banned (shunned?) by the private sector, not by the government.
--Patrick
Censorship is not always completely evil and wrong; sometimes it's common sense. The companies are free to do this. The question of motive is certainly debatable. They've been gladly selling these items up to now.[DOUBLEPOST=1435155104,1435154915][/DOUBLEPOST]
My point was that it is not illegal to sell/make the flags. It is now not as easy to obtain.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...te-southern-heritage-fly-these-flags-instead/
Last edited:
figmentPez
Staff member
Why shouldn't it be? If Wal-Mart stops selling confederate flag merchandise, then that just means Rednecks 'R' Us can open a kiosk in the mall, or a mail-order company, and start making money from all the sales that Wal-Mart lost.
It might seem like a fine hair to split, but it isn't.
Companies can still sell the flag if they want. And I'm sure some do. Others will recognize that it probably isn't in their interest, especially after all of attention paid to the topic.
But nobody's going to go to jail for selling the flags. The government isn't investigating anyone (well, maybe? Thanks Patriot Act). People are still free to say, think, and feel what they want. Government censorship is always a ton worse for individual freedoms than whether or not a company bows to social pressure.
It's not self-censorship. Censorship would be a company wanting to sell the flag, and the government telling them they can't. Freedom of speech includes freedom of what not to say. These are companies who are finding that they don't like being associated with this imagery, and are deciding to distance themselves from it.
Besides, if you want a confederate flag, just go to -any- flea market in the south. You can even find blatantly racist stuff at the flea market closest to me, including KKK and Nazi paraphernalia, as well as mammies. Lots and lots of mammies.
A mammy, for those unfamiliar with the term.
Or go visit one of my relatives on my dad's side of the family. Sadly. You could probably score some blue-ice too.
figmentPez
Staff member
From the Oxford Dictionaries, "self-censorship: The exercising of control over what one says and does, especially to avoid castigation"
It's the literal definition of self-censorship. Every healthy person self-censors. We don't voice every thought that comes into our head. We don't perform every action we have the impulse to perform. Corporations perform similar forms of self-censorship.
With a black president to protect, I'd assume the Secret Service is watching everyone who buys this flag (especially if they're picking up some white sheets from Walmart at the same time).
I have not seen one with the flag on it in years. Even the new commercial that it is in does not have General Lee or the flag on it.
You mean copy and paste, amirite?
I need the warbrgrl dog for some of my FB "friends".
What celebrity? I ask again.[DOUBLEPOST=1435252309,1435252022][/DOUBLEPOST]
Your Honor, the plaintiff asked me to ice the cake with a secessionist flag but I refused to be a party to treason.
Regardless of what it's called, the symbol commonly referred as "The Confederate Flag" or "The Rebel Flag" was rarely flown from 1865 to the 1930's, when it was adopted by the Ku Klux Klan as a symbol for their terrorism. It was not flown at government buildings across the South until the Civil Rights Movement, at which point they became staunchly adopted by anti-civil rights state leadership.
And as for the Confederacy not being all about slavery, well, let's just ask Alexander Stephens, Vice President of the CSA, in his Cornerstone Speech from 1861:
"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science. It has been so even amongst us. Many who hear me, perhaps, can recollect well, that this truth was not generally admitted, even within their day. The errors of the past generation still clung to many as late as twenty years ago. Those at the North, who still cling to these errors, with a zeal above knowledge, we justly denominate fanatics. All fanaticism springs from an aberration of the mind from a defect in reasoning. It is a species of insanity. One of the most striking characteristics of insanity, in many instances, is forming correct conclusions from fancied or erroneous premises; so with the anti-slavery fanatics. Their conclusions are right if their premises were. They assume that the negro is equal, and hence conclude that he is entitled to equal privileges and rights with the white man. If their premises were correct, their conclusions would be logical and just but their premise being wrong, their whole argument fails. I recollect once of having heard a gentleman from one of the northern States, of great power and ability, announce in the House of Representatives, with imposing effect, that we of the South would be compelled, ultimately, to yield upon this subject of slavery, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics, as it was in physics or mechanics. That the principle would ultimately prevail. That we, in maintaining slavery as it exists with us, were warring against a principle, a principle founded in nature, the principle of the equality of men. The reply I made to him was, that upon his own grounds, we should, ultimately, succeed, and that he and his associates, in this crusade against our institutions, would ultimately fail. The truth announced, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics as it was in physics and mechanics, I admitted; but told him that it was he, and those acting with him, who were warring against a principle. They were attempting to make things equal which the Creator had made unequal.
In the conflict thus far, success has been on our side, complete throughout the length and breadth of the Confederate States. It is upon this, as I have stated, our social fabric is firmly planted; and I cannot permit myself to doubt the ultimate success of a full recognition of this principle throughout the civilized and enlightened world.
As I have stated, the truth of this principle may be slow in development, as all truths are and ever have been, in the various branches of science. It was so with the principles announced by Galileo it was so with Adam Smith and his principles of political economy. It was so with Harvey, and his theory of the circulation of the blood. It is stated that not a single one of the medical profession, living at the time of the announcement of the truths made by him, admitted them. Now, they are universally acknowledged. May we not, therefore, look with confidence to the ultimate universal acknowledgment of the truths upon which our system rests? It is the first government ever instituted upon the principles in strict conformity to nature, and the ordination of Providence, in furnishing the materials of human society. Many governments have been founded upon the principle of the subordination and serfdom of certain classes of the same race; such were and are in violation of the laws of nature. Our system commits no such violation of nature’s laws. With us, all of the white race, however high or low, rich or poor, are equal in the eye of the law. Not so with the negro. Subordination is his place. He, by nature, or by the curse against Canaan, is fitted for that condition which he occupies in our system. The architect, in the construction of buildings, lays the foundation with the proper material-the granite; then comes the brick or the marble. The substratum of our society is made of the material fitted by nature for it, and by experience we know that it is best, not only for the superior, but for the inferior race, that it should be so. It is, indeed, in conformity with the ordinance of the Creator. It is not for us to inquire into the wisdom of His ordinances, or to question them. For His own purposes, He has made one race to differ from another, as He has made “one star to differ from another star in glory.” The great objects of humanity are best attained when there is conformity to His laws and decrees, in the formation of governments as well as in all things else. Our confederacy is founded upon principles in strict conformity with these laws. This stone which was rejected by the first builders “is become the chief of the corner” the real “corner-stone” in our new edifice. I have been asked, what of the future? It has been apprehended by some that we would have arrayed against us the civilized world. I care not who or how many they may be against us, when we stand upon the eternal principles of truth, if we are true to ourselves and the principles for which we contend, we are obliged to, and must triumph."
And as for the Confederacy not being all about slavery, well, let's just ask Alexander Stephens, Vice President of the CSA, in his Cornerstone Speech from 1861:
"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science. It has been so even amongst us. Many who hear me, perhaps, can recollect well, that this truth was not generally admitted, even within their day. The errors of the past generation still clung to many as late as twenty years ago. Those at the North, who still cling to these errors, with a zeal above knowledge, we justly denominate fanatics. All fanaticism springs from an aberration of the mind from a defect in reasoning. It is a species of insanity. One of the most striking characteristics of insanity, in many instances, is forming correct conclusions from fancied or erroneous premises; so with the anti-slavery fanatics. Their conclusions are right if their premises were. They assume that the negro is equal, and hence conclude that he is entitled to equal privileges and rights with the white man. If their premises were correct, their conclusions would be logical and just but their premise being wrong, their whole argument fails. I recollect once of having heard a gentleman from one of the northern States, of great power and ability, announce in the House of Representatives, with imposing effect, that we of the South would be compelled, ultimately, to yield upon this subject of slavery, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics, as it was in physics or mechanics. That the principle would ultimately prevail. That we, in maintaining slavery as it exists with us, were warring against a principle, a principle founded in nature, the principle of the equality of men. The reply I made to him was, that upon his own grounds, we should, ultimately, succeed, and that he and his associates, in this crusade against our institutions, would ultimately fail. The truth announced, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics as it was in physics and mechanics, I admitted; but told him that it was he, and those acting with him, who were warring against a principle. They were attempting to make things equal which the Creator had made unequal.
In the conflict thus far, success has been on our side, complete throughout the length and breadth of the Confederate States. It is upon this, as I have stated, our social fabric is firmly planted; and I cannot permit myself to doubt the ultimate success of a full recognition of this principle throughout the civilized and enlightened world.
As I have stated, the truth of this principle may be slow in development, as all truths are and ever have been, in the various branches of science. It was so with the principles announced by Galileo it was so with Adam Smith and his principles of political economy. It was so with Harvey, and his theory of the circulation of the blood. It is stated that not a single one of the medical profession, living at the time of the announcement of the truths made by him, admitted them. Now, they are universally acknowledged. May we not, therefore, look with confidence to the ultimate universal acknowledgment of the truths upon which our system rests? It is the first government ever instituted upon the principles in strict conformity to nature, and the ordination of Providence, in furnishing the materials of human society. Many governments have been founded upon the principle of the subordination and serfdom of certain classes of the same race; such were and are in violation of the laws of nature. Our system commits no such violation of nature’s laws. With us, all of the white race, however high or low, rich or poor, are equal in the eye of the law. Not so with the negro. Subordination is his place. He, by nature, or by the curse against Canaan, is fitted for that condition which he occupies in our system. The architect, in the construction of buildings, lays the foundation with the proper material-the granite; then comes the brick or the marble. The substratum of our society is made of the material fitted by nature for it, and by experience we know that it is best, not only for the superior, but for the inferior race, that it should be so. It is, indeed, in conformity with the ordinance of the Creator. It is not for us to inquire into the wisdom of His ordinances, or to question them. For His own purposes, He has made one race to differ from another, as He has made “one star to differ from another star in glory.” The great objects of humanity are best attained when there is conformity to His laws and decrees, in the formation of governments as well as in all things else. Our confederacy is founded upon principles in strict conformity with these laws. This stone which was rejected by the first builders “is become the chief of the corner” the real “corner-stone” in our new edifice. I have been asked, what of the future? It has been apprehended by some that we would have arrayed against us the civilized world. I care not who or how many they may be against us, when we stand upon the eternal principles of truth, if we are true to ourselves and the principles for which we contend, we are obliged to, and must triumph."
GasBandit
Staff member
I don't think anyone here denies the confederacy believed in the institution of slavery. Its just not the case that its elimination was the only, or even biggest, reason for the civil war.
I mean, the Nazis killed a whole lot of Jews, but that's not why anybody went to war with Germany. It just made us all feel even more justified for doing so, ex post facto.
I mean, the Nazis killed a whole lot of Jews, but that's not why anybody went to war with Germany. It just made us all feel even more justified for doing so, ex post facto.
As has been established in precedent, cakemakers are not allowed to exercise discretion of any kind when decorating.
Last edited:
Gonna find me a hot cakemaker and make her ice the cake with a nudie pic of herself.As has been established in precedent, cakemakers are not allowed to exercise discretion of any kind when decorating.
GasBandit
Staff member
We've definitely crossed into "stupid" territory now.
Apple has banned all depictions of the confederate flag from its app store. No big deal, right?
Except there are no exceptions for historical accuracy, not even about apps or games explicitly about/depicting the Civil War.
http://techraptor.net/content/apple-bans-confederate-flag
Tim Cook's tweet about it being to "honor the lives and families of the SC victims" by "eradicating racism and removing the symbols that feed it" show how intellectually vapid he is - and hypocritical, given that iTunes still carries movies with the flag in it, like Gettysburg. Also, the Nazi flag is not similarly banned.
Also I'd just like to comment about about the likelihood of the kind of people that have pictures of Chairman Mao or Che Guevara on their walls being the loudest about speaking up about how unacceptable it is to display confederate symbolism.
Apple has banned all depictions of the confederate flag from its app store. No big deal, right?
Except there are no exceptions for historical accuracy, not even about apps or games explicitly about/depicting the Civil War.
http://techraptor.net/content/apple-bans-confederate-flag
Tim Cook's tweet about it being to "honor the lives and families of the SC victims" by "eradicating racism and removing the symbols that feed it" show how intellectually vapid he is - and hypocritical, given that iTunes still carries movies with the flag in it, like Gettysburg. Also, the Nazi flag is not similarly banned.
Also I'd just like to comment about about the likelihood of the kind of people that have pictures of Chairman Mao or Che Guevara on their walls being the loudest about speaking up about how unacceptable it is to display confederate symbolism.
I think that's a really stupid, thoughtless ban. Hell, I don't even support banning the flag on historical monuments that are not part of state government. Context matters. For example, at a historical site like Vicksburg National Military Park, it's well and proper for a CSA flag, as well as the flags of the units stationed there, to be displayed. Over statehouse, however, that's a functioning part of government? No, that's inappropriate.
I'll certainly give you Che, but is Mao really a thing now? Apparently, I'm not as lefty as I thought...[DOUBLEPOST=1435266987,1435266685][/DOUBLEPOST]I don't think Tim Cook's tweet is specifically about those games, the timeline for that seems a bit off.
I suspect that some mid-level creature decided that this was the easiest way to deal with a high-level directive to keep an extra eye out for racist content, and told their outsourced foreign app store curators to just remove everything with the following 20 symbols on it, no questions asked.
GasBandit
Staff member
White House Communications Director Anita Dunn loved her some Chairman Mao. She said he was one of her favorite political philosophers.
GasBandit
Staff member
Apparently one of the developers of a civil war themed wargame had direct contact with apple representatives, and they explicitly informed him that the game could be readmitted to the app store if they removed all the confederate flags. It's in the article I linked.
I saw that, but dealing with the app store rarely puts in touch with anyone senior at all. I'd be really surprised if it was someone with actual authority. Your app actually has to make money for Apple to take you seriously and let you talk to someone who can actually make decisions.
My best friend just posted this. I'm stunned to say the least. I basically wrote her an essay detailing why she is wrong and the image is ignorant. I'm beside myself.
Sweeping the existence of the flag under the rug is dumb as hell. Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it, etc. And the words "eradicating racism" makes it feel like this is going to just let people once more delude themselves that racism is over and ignore the continuing problems.
Since this feels more like the thread for the Charleston shooting, I'm gonna post this next bit here. I posted it on Tumblr as well; not sure how it'll go over there, but anyway, I was on my morning bus commute and overheard this:
For clarity that these weren’t white racists, I’ll note that both people were black.
Woman: I read they invited him in.
Man: Yeah, he sat and prayed with them for an hour before he started shooting them.
Woman: You know though, if they’d had the Holy Spirit in them, they would’ve sensed he was a danger. I mean, if they were a real church, with the Holy Spirit there, they would’ve known and could’ve stopped it.
Man: I know.
What the fuck?
