[MMO] WoW: Mists of Pandaria Beta

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Warlock tank? Really? I just don't understand why. The lack of tanks doesn't come from the lack of classes that can tank, but from people just not enjoying it. Its too damn easy to level to say you can only have one character. If they want to homogenize it that much, how will mages tank? Through their elemental? Or will they heal... maybe we need dk healers who pull life from the mob and transfer it to the party member. How about rogue tanks? Some classes just don't make sense for certain roles.
Probably not a good idea to discuss this with me, I have in the past developed "viable" tanking specs for mages and rogues, plus healing specs for warlocks. If I could, I would remove the entire aspect of "pure" classes, because I hate the idea of the hybrid tax that right now afflicts a few of the hybrid classes. Anyone that thinks certain classes don't make sense for certain roles is just not being imaginative enough.

Warlock tanks may not make more tanks, or maybe it will. The reason people don't enjoy tanks is because it's a) a very stressful job if you are not good at it, or b) too mind numbing since you don't worry about using skills outside of spamming one or two for aggro. Both those issues are being addressed by making tank mitigation more reactive, meaning more skill usage to give yourself your mitigation and avoidance, but overall reducing dungeon difficulty for heroics, making tanking less stressful for newer tanks.
 
ScytheRexx said:
Probably not a good idea to discuss this with me, I have in the past developed "viable" tanking specs for mages and rogues, plus healing specs for warlocks. If I could, I would remove the entire aspect of "pure" classes, because I hate the idea of the hybrid tax that right now afflicts a few of the hybrid classes. Anyone that thinks certain classes don't make sense for certain roles is just not being imaginative enough.

Warlock tanks may not make more tanks, or maybe it will. The reason people don't enjoy tanks is because it's a) a very stressful job if you are not good at it, or b) too mind numbing since you don't worry about using skills outside of spamming one or two for aggro. Both those issues are being addressed by making tank mitigation more reactive, meaning more skill usage to give yourself your mitigation and avoidance, but overall reducing dungeon difficulty for heroics, making tanking less stressful for newer tanks.
Viable in what way? Sure a smart enough lock or mage could tank if need be, but it was never ideal or enjoyable. I've tanked a few instances with my lock when horrible tanks showed up, but it was never fun. I rolled a dps character for a reason. The problem isn't pure classes, its the idea that every class should do everything. Why should every class do everything? I ask again because they have made leveling so easy. Why should we expect people to level one class and do everything?
 
Oh, and I'll say the issue of the lack of tanks come from the issue of stress. You are expected to lead, which most don't want to do. They want to sit back and spam buttons. Same goes with healing. Too much responsibility.
 
Why does Shego tank? Cause she can't stand the incompetancy of other tanks.

Leave my dungeon/raid experience in the hands of this current gen of WoW fuckwits? I think not.
 
If wanting a dungeon to go smoothly, pull quickly but not stupidly, kill bosses in the right orders, not skip quests etc = Control Freak? Consider me labeled.

FYI, "rarity" in MMOs? I dunno about that, if anyone could be labeled as a Control Freak Tank would have been the tanks in Everquest.
 
Shegokigo said:
If wanting a dungeon to go smoothly, pull quickly but not stupidly, kill bosses in the right orders, not skip quests etc = Control Freak? Consider me labeled.

FYI, "rarity" in MMOs? I dunno about that, if anyone could be labeled as a Control Freak Tank would have been the tanks in Everquest.
You are labeled. Most want to just sit back and blame things that go wrong on the tank and or healer.
 
Viable in what way? Sure a smart enough lock or mage could tank if need be, but it was never ideal or enjoyable. I've tanked a few instances with my lock when horrible tanks showed up, but it was never fun. I rolled a dps character for a reason. The problem isn't pure classes, its the idea that every class should do everything. Why should every class do everything? I ask again because they have made leveling so easy. Why should we expect people to level one class and do everything?
They don't have to do "everything" but they should at the least fulfill two of the three roles required for play. While it is easy to level, you still have a lot of players that only stick to one character. I know a few, and one of them (at least he used to), a friend of mine that plays a undead mage, actually grew tired of the class simply because he felt like he had to do the same thing over and over and over, just always DPS.

He ended up making a druid and never went back to mage, because druid fulfilled all the "roles" while also being just fine for DPS when he wanted it. This was not a good thing for him, as he grew attached to his mage and really just wished more was open to them.

Mage has to be balanced to be more powerful then Druids, otherwise no one would play them, thus the "hybrid tax".

And this is not about a warlock or mage tanking as they are now, it's about them gaining a tanking or healing specs. A mage would, for instance, gain a new shield that would make him critical immune. His spells would do less damage and be shorter range, but would have more wide attacks to better gain group aggro, and his health would also be amplified by the shield. Warlocks, right now, get tanking through the usage of demonform, which turns them into a hulking powerhouse of magic with melee attacks and close range aoe abilities.

The thing is, this is extremely easy now for them to add. The barrier to creating a new spec was always talents. They didn't want to have to make a whole new tree of talents for a new spec going down 7 tiers. Now that spec and talents are separate, they can add specs and skills to accommodate that spec without altering the talent system. This is why Druids now have four specs, Balance (Ranged DPS), Restoration (Healer), Guardian (Tank) and Feral (Melee DPS).

P.S. While you picked a DPS class to DPS, that does not mean you have to stop DPSing if they gain another role. It's not like turning warlocks into a tank will suddenly make the other specs vanish.
 
That's more a problem that hasn't been fixed with druids and paladins than anything else. No class should be able to do everything that well.
 
Yup, Monks also can fulfill all three roles.

Sorry man, but people like hybrids. I have never seen warlocks as excited as I have since the revelation of tank viability came to the surface.

Exactly. Lets just play either a druid a paladin or a monk and you'll be good. :-/
I would give more credit to your argument if this was actually a problem, however, I don't see everyone playing paladin or druid at the expense of all other classes. Are they well represented? Yes, but so are priests, and they only fit two roles. Hell, looking at leveling data paladins were lower then Mage, Priest, Hunter, Shaman, and Warrior when it comes to representation leveling from 80-85.

"Pure" classes are not hurting that much, but it would be better to make them hybrids by adding new specs, rather then try to remove viable specs from other classes. That is not going to happen. By adding more roles to pure classes we remove the hybrid tax, give them more options to try new roles, and ultimately make those classes more popular for their versatility.
 
Warlock is now the most visited forum on MMO Champ, which is up from the least visited prior to the announcement.

As for being an awesome hybrid? Well I do play PLD for a reason.... however I disagree that we should do everything nearly as equally well as a "pure" class. Rogues/Hunters/Mages/Warlocks should have definitely decimated the hybrids in DPS and the hybrid classes should have definitely had a "tax" on them to help balance it out.
 
I just think making every class do everything is the wrong approach. Making each class do 2 of the roles is fine. You'll always compete with the 3 role classes though, and I bet they'll cave and have rogue healers at the end. Maybe they can bleed the mobs to heal party members...
 
Shegokigo said:
As for being an awesome hybrid? Well I do play PLD for a reason.... however I disagree that we should do everything nearly as equally well as a "pure" class. Rogues/Hunters/Mages/Warlocks should have definitely decimated the hybrids in DPS and the hybrid classes should have definitely had a "tax" on them to help balance it out.
Or just admit they can do too much and cut all classes back to 2 roles. Would it really be that bad? Druids healers and dps. Pallies tanks and dps. Monks dps an healers.
 
As for being an awesome hybrid? Well I do play PLD for a reason.... however I disagree that we should do everything nearly as equally well as a "pure" class. Rogues/Hunters/Mages/Warlocks should have definitely decimated the hybrids in DPS and the hybrid classes should have definitely had a "tax" on them to help balance it out.
The problem is that by adding a tax you often tell the hybrids they shouldn't be DPS, which hybrids want to have as a valid role. Thankfully the tax is not heavy, it is still, and always will be, a hot topic of discussion until it is abolished, and the only way to abolish it will be to either remove hybrids or remove pures, and removing hybrids would require removing specs, while removing pures would require adding specs. One is much more viable.

Again, this is not about giving every class all the roles. We don't need rogues to heal, tank, and dps, but there is no reason they can't dps and tank.

Or just admit they can do too much and cut all classes back to 2 roles. Would it really be that bad? Druids healers and dps. Pallies tanks and dps. Monks dps an healers.
Yes, it would be that bad. You have to understand that some people have been playing the various roles on druids and paladins for ages. You are basically going to have to remove one of them, pissing off the very large fanbase of that spec and role, just to carry out the action. It would be the first step on the eventual death of the game. The only reason you are likely fine with it is because you never played those classes, or in the end, played a spec that you don't think would be cut. Think of all the players here, not just what you want.

Letting a class do everything is not a problem, just as long as he can only do one of those roles at once. A paladin healer is not going to put out high DPS or tank, a paladin tank is not going to do high damage and heal, etc... Blizzard is even taking this further by making it so most of the healing skills on the paladin are no longer even open outside of Holy spec.
 
Why does Shego tank? Cause she can't stand the incompetancy of other tanks.

Leave my dungeon/raid experience in the hands of this current gen of WoW fuckwits? I think not.
That's me a T as well. I only began tanking because I couldn't fucking stand other tanks.

I would love to play a weird pet tank class if the warlock gets it. That sounds pretty rad to me and really different compared to the other tank classes.
 
That's more a problem that hasn't been fixed with druids and paladins than anything else. No class should be able to do everything that well.
I don't know about lately, as I'm like 3 major content patches out of date, but Paladins were never that good at DPS (in fact, the worst usually labelled them correctly). Hell, I remember when paladins were garbage for everything but healing (waaaaaaaaaaaaay back). I remember a guy who I used to guild with many moons ago who was always a retadin. One of the most skilled players ever. When he tanked, he was the best tank. When he healed, he was the best healer. When he was ret, he was middling at best behind the medicorely competent players. I know it wasn't skill. The guy was fucking amazingly good at everything. The only thing he lacked was common sense not to be ret.
 
I wasn't really serious about cutting specs from druids and paladins. I've played both, so i get that people like it. I just think pushing specs to classes where it doesn't make sense isn't the answer. The problem isn't that certain classes can't fill enough roles, its that people feel left out because they can't do what that other class can. Thing is, people will always feel that. Adding roles that don't make sense is just going to kill the feel of classes, and cause confusion. A druid can melee dps, range dps, tank, and heal. How long before people start whining again that their class can't do all that? Should every class really be able to fill all those roles? It seems like multi classing would be a better solution. Let people level a character multiple times as different classes.
 
Being 4th-5th on the meter while Pures have 1-3 isn't exactly a tax that would keep them from being that spec.
Like I said, it is not heavy, so this is not a huge problem right now, but it does come up in discussion when you get to the world first crowd and raids, and often if they have the class to fulfill a certain buff, they "gravitate" towards pure dps over hybrid dps, which I don't personally think should be part of the consideration. DPS is DPS.

Making it so "pures" don't exist will fix the issue by giving the people that play pure classes more utility, while also stopping the hybrid tax and putting classes on a more even level for DPS roles.

Adding roles that don't make sense is just going to kill the feel of classes, and cause confusion. A druid can melee dps, range dps, tank, and heal. How long before people start whining again that their class can't do all that? Should every class really be able to fill all those roles? It seems like multi classing would be a better solution. Let people level a character multiple times as different classes.
You are creating phantom problems. No one complains right now that Druid and Paladin can utilize all the different roles, they just wish a few of the others had more options. I have one of every class above 80, I have played all of them in various forms of heroics either in WOTLK or Cataclysm, and I am perfectly fine playing a warrior that can tank or dps, but can't heal, or a priest that can heal or dps, but can't tank.

I am sorry, Shakey, but you are sounding like one of those sky is falling individuals that worried when new race-class combos were open that the entire community was going to fall apart and want undead druids and orc paladins. No one did. We are not asking for everything for everyone, no one wants that, but we do want classes, all of them, to have more utility. A limit of allowing every class to fulfill at least two roles is not going to hurt the game, more so when the other specs, the classic ones, are not hurt in the process.

Playing multiple classes is an option, but it shouldn't be the only one. I play all the classes because I enjoy all the classes, not because I feel beholden to make one just to have utility.

I also wish to reiterate, that certain roles on certain classes only "don't make sense" because you are to beholden to the system as it is now, you are not thinking outside of the box. WarCraft, as a series, has had Mages utilize arcane magic for healing purposes (Aegwyn, the mother of Medivh, brought her son back from the dead using it), Rogues can tank through the usage of agility, just like the Monk, and warlocks can tank through usage of well... becoming a massive demon ripped to the teeth with muscles. Hunters would be the most tricky, but I have been a huge proponent years ago of altering Beastmastery to instead be a melee tank spec that utilizes two weapons, to play off the image of Rexxar who was the meat shield of the WC3:TFT Orc Campagin.
 
I don't always play healer, but when I do, it's because I'm sick of depending on other fuckwits to keep me alive.
 
Of course, the problem there is playing with any PUG that has no clue that healers actually need time and mana to keep them alive.
 
This is why every one of my characters that has a healer or tank option, I usually play one of those roles as the main spec and DPS as the alternate spec. I also hate having crappy tanks or healers. My wife and I for a long time actually filled both roles (I was tank, she was heals) but now that she mainly plays a hunter and I play a restoration druid, we don't have that dynamic anymore.

Of course, the problem there is playing with any PUG that has no clue that healers actually need time and mana to keep them alive.
This is why when I drink I don't heal. If the tank runs in by himself and starts attacking, he wipes, I cast shadowmeld, wait for the mobs to reset, then resurrect the team. If the tank complains I tell him he has to wait for my mana, or he will have to find another healer, no skin off my back. Most of the time the DPS side with me, unless they are friends with the tank.

On the flip side, I watch the healer mana on every pull as a tank. If it's below 50% I ask him if he needs mana before I pull the next.
 
I guess I don't see how this is going to fix anything. Even if you get all the classes at 2 viable roles, you're still going to have 2, and now 3 classes that can do more. You think people won't still demand a hybrid tax on that?
 
I don't know... SWTOR is handling it's classes pretty well. All of them have competent DPS ability, as well as another role they can fulfill (except for Snipers and Gunslingers, who ONLY DPS). Mostly, people seem to be thankful that it's much easier to find Tanks and healers now.
 
I guess I don't see how this is going to fix anything. Even if you get all the classes at 2 viable roles, you're still going to have 2, and now 3 classes that can do more. You think people won't still demand a hybrid tax on that?
No, I don't think they would. Can I say that with 100% certainty? Nope, but it's what I feel based on how we are moving forward with MoP. The hybrid tax is already rumored to be on the decline just by the nature of "spec" changes being more focused, but even if the hybrid tax is removed due to more focus, that means we still have the problem of pures losing utility.

The fact remains, it at the least works towards a solution. By keeping the system as it is now, you are not working towards anything. You don't see it "fixing" anything, but one does not fix something by staring at it and hoping to goes away. Even if it fixes only 50% of the problem, that is better then nothing at all.

I can already tell you adding it wouldn't create a problem, because options never hurt any class in the long run. Remember when warriors were the only tanks? They made paladin and druid viable, then added DKs, it didn't destroy the game because more options were given for the roles over what we had.
 
I remember days when Warriors were the only tanks, and only viable as tanks in PvE (Arms/Fury were mostly PvP specs unless you were screwing around).

Priests, Druids, and Shamans/Paladins were only viable as healers in PvE.

Rogues, Warlocks, Hunters and Mages were the only classes that were viable as DPS.

And that time was really boring. Sure, you had a role as soon as you chose a class from the beginning, but fewer options was never a good design.
 
I think you overestimate the community... Paladins and druids could always tank, just not well. They didn't change the class to make it fit another role. I know you'll be able to find lore examples to fit any class combo you want, and I'm sure they'll make it up if there isn't. It just changes the feel of the game. I think that's why I lost interest in the game. There's not a whole lot of "Wow!" left in the game. The world doesn't feel big anymore, and the classes and factions don't really feel unique any more. It's like anything else. If you make it bland, obviously more people will like it. It loses what makes it great though.

I'm not saying we should go back to the way it was in Vanilla, that just wasn't fun for many people. There is the danger of taking it too far though. That's what it feels like they're doing.

Will it cause problems? Other than a temporary spike in horrible lock tanks, probably not. It's good that they're willing to trow out conventions and try new things. If I can get my lazy bum of a friend to send me a scroll I'll probably give it another try.
 
In Vanilla WoW, Paladins and Druids could tank about as well as Shamans. That is, fine enough when severely over-geared for the content, but not viable when learning content.
 
I think you overestimate the community...
And I think you underestimate them. The community can be jackface retarded, but changes like opening roles are one of the few things I literally see the community lose their shit over in a good way. When druids and paladins were given the ability to be viable tanks, there was nothing but praise. People like getting new stuff, they only complain when they lose what they have. Taking away the talent system as we know it? BOO! Giving warlocks the ability to tank? YEAAAHHHH! They never asked for warlock tanks, but having them is exciting to players.

Paladins and druids could always tank, just not well. They didn't change the class to make it fit another role. I know you'll be able to find lore examples to fit any class combo you want, and I'm sure they'll make it up if there isn't. It just changes the feel of the game. I think that's why I lost interest in the game. There's not a whole lot of "Wow!" left in the game. The world doesn't feel big anymore, and the classes and factions don't really feel unique any more. It's like anything else. If you make it bland, obviously more people will like it. It loses what makes it great though.
I don't agree with paladins and druids always being able to tank. Yes, they had a spec that said it was a tank, but the whole game back in vanilla and going into BC was balanced around the idea of making warriors the only "real" tank. You couldn't tank at all on paladins or druids outside of world group quests. That only started to change in BC, when they started the process to make them more viable, and even then it was never finished until WOTLK. I remember attempting often to tank on my own blood elf paladin after the process started, and no one wanted me because the viability was so low. The best I could get was the rare Normal dungeon runs, never a heroic.

As for the second part of the paragraph, we need to change the feel of the game on some level, at least every expansion. This game came out in 2004, it is over 7 years old and will not have that "WoW!" factor, it's just not possible to expect that. If the game does not change in some form, to mix up the processes and alter the status-quo, it will crash and burn. As much as people like to wear rose-tinted goggles about vanilla or BC, everyone I talk with agrees that if either of those releases/expansions attempted to exist in the modern day, they would crash. Hell, Cata was an attempt to "recapture" some of what people had in BC, and it lost them nearly 2 million players.

I think in the end, your biggest issue is not changing the classes or giving them more options, the issue you have is the game itself does not interest you anymore and the alterations would be such a drastic step away from your memories. You want to feel like it's the same game you loved, but the more changes that happen the more distant you feel from it. I know with some people it can be hard to adapt.

I'm not saying we should go back to the way it was in Vanilla, that just wasn't fun for many people. There is the danger of taking it too far though. That's what it feels like they're doing.
I disagree. There is such a thing as "too far" but that, to me, would to to remove all variance entirely. If they made it so every race could be every class, and ever class could be every spec, that would be going over the line, but no one is asking for that. All the people that are crapping their pants in excitement over warlock tanking are not sitting there going "well why can't we heal too?", which seems to be what you think the next natural question is going to be on the process. It's not, not for us that play anyways.

Will it cause problems? Other than a temporary spike in horrible lock tanks, probably not. It's good that they're willing to trow out conventions and try new things. If I can get my lazy bum of a friend to send me a scroll I'll probably give it another try.
I can always send you a scroll if you feel like it, but I recommend at least waiting till MoP considering how you feel about the game right now. Cata was a bit of a failure to most players due to over-tuned difficult and a few shoddy systems that are being corrected, and while it's better then it was at the beginning, you would be coming into a game that sometime later this year is going to drastically change. Talents will be completely redesigned, end game mechanics expanded, class specs better condensed, leveling altered (no more trainers), etc.. Just hit me up though if you want to give it a go anyways, a free 80 can't hurt.
 
And it all reached its apex in the original Four Horsemen encounter of the original Naxxramas, where the encounter was impossible without a full eight warriors with set bonuses to prevent resisted taunts.
 
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