Path of Exile (Diablo 2's real sequel)

[Bubble181]

Which, by the way, I liked. I don't really like respecs, especially unlimited ones. It was perfectly possible to play through the first difficulty (and the second if you were somewhat decent) with any build; making a correct build only really mattered over level 60, going into Hell.
A game's difficulty in speccing should be such that a casual gamer who doesn't want to use spreadsheets or look up forums, should be able to play through the normal difficulty. I think it's reasonable to expect people who want to finish a game on the hardest difficulty need to plan beforehand. If you're playing an MMO or other such gale where both are - by nature - intertwined, yes, you probably do need some respec capabilities.

 

[Bowielee]

First off there is no way you played D2 into Hell Cows without rerolling or researching your build, unless someone twinked you to 99. That game had a more unforgiving spec system than this one, and Blizz had a tendency to patch the game in such a way as to completely wreck the builds.

For Oblivion/Morrowind (which one was it that you min/maxed your levels in that weird way???) the problem was mostly with difficulty scaling. Those games did not scale well difficulty wise. Same could be said of Borderlands 1. There really wasn't an "end game" in those, it was just "Oh wow I am so overpowered this isn't really even fun anymore". To me that hurts the game, it's not a good attribute.

I get why people don't like not being able to respec easily, but I also get why they don't allow respec. It causes a couple of problems:

1) It will allow people to palytest min/max builds instantly which will remove the 'discovery' aspect of build design from the game, and would probably reduce the game down to 1-2 builds, including respeccing at different difficulty levels, or even at different boss fights. It would really make it harder to balance.

2) It allows people to match their gear to their skills easier. If you find some amazing sword you can just respec to use it. This also accelerates player motion through the difficulty levels too fast.

I mean, I realize that what I am saying is that "It's good because it's difficult" and you guys are saying "It's bad because it's too difficult". We just have a different approach to games. I like a game that is a never ending chasm of research and progress. I don't want to hit end game quickly in a game, I want it to take a while, and I want it to punish me for making mistakes.

When I say finish, I mean that I was able to play through the main campaign of the game. Anything beyond that is getting into Min/Max territory. Something that I care nothing about. I just want to be able to enjoy the game through at least the main campaign. You obviously enjoy never ending treadmills, which is the opposite of fun for me.

 

[Necronic]

Well shit, you can do that in this game too. I didn't even consider that being a possibility of the discussion. You can beat normal with pretty much any build you want.



Ok, so 2H sword maurader build is here (25 pts)

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-...OR354DXloe4yE2YdqkGykGalzqZSrxb6KvqfBBMbY3D0=

64 dex which will let you use any sword up to level 36. This took me like 2 minutes to build



And here's the Sword and Board build. (26 pts)

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-...Y23gNeWh7jITZkHSbg6QZq8W-ir6nwQTcPeRR5673Kw==

100 some odd dex, you can now use 1h swords up to level 50 or so. Guess how long this one took.

 

[GasBandit]

Only 26 levels to be able to use swords for the next 24 levels, eh?

....

....
What a deal.

The problem is one or two of those dex nodes needs to be in among the sword nodes for marauder, rather than having to go 13 (or 26) nodes out of your way.

 

[tegid]

The problem is one or two of those dex nodes needs to be in among the sword nodes for marauder, rather than having to go 13 (or 26) nodes out of your way.

I think this kind of argument makes a lot more logic inside the logic of the game. Would another way of putting it is that those sword nodes are almost useless for a while?

 

[Necronic]

If you look at the nodes one of the first ones you get is Versatility (for some reason I forgot to take it on the sword and board build.) It gives you +20 dex at level 6, which lets you use swords up to level 15

 

[Rovewin]

I think the big thing is it forces you to go after those dex nodes so early in the game that is a big pain. Almost any build will eventually work its way around to them but instead of being able to grab the things near your starting point, the game forces you to travel a ways, ignoring health and damage to get it. Yeah you can grab those things later but it is not very satisfying to have your last 8 lvl ups be only the stat point that your character is situated in. I started playing a few characters and I always have to rush to get those +30nodes.

 

[Dave]

And here's the Sword and Board build. (26 pts)

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-...Y23gNeWh7jITZkHSbg6QZq8W-ir6nwQTcPeRR5673Kw==

100 some odd dex, you can now use 1h swords up to level 50 or so. Guess how long this one took.

You wasted almost right away (9th & 10th level) 2 points in 2-Handed weapon skills. Wasted points. At 15th level you waste a point on Int. Also, with that level of STR you'll be limited in your damage. So you can use swords, but can't hit worth a crap. Yay. So this build wastes talent and limits your character simply because the system thinks a fighter shouldn't use swords.

Sorry, man, but these builds are asinine. And that's not your fault, but the fault of the trees themselves.

 

[Vrii]

So this build wastes talent and limits your character simply because the system thinks a fighter shouldn't use swords.

This has already been pointed out, but the class isn't Fighter. It's Marauder. Pretty different connotations, and if you're dead set on using swords, there is a class designed around that.

 

[Dave]

This has already been pointed out, but the class isn't Fighter. It's Marauder. Pretty different connotations, and if you're dead set on using swords, there is a class designed around that.

It was already pointed out...3 minutes before I did. So it's probably because I was in the tree poking around and Rovewin is a faster typist.

But the Marauder is the game's pure strength character. Duelist is the hybrid STR/DEX. So I would argue that Marauder is the pure fighter and Duelist is more like a swashbuckler/fencer. And most swords are NOT fencing weapons, but fighting weapons. I disagree with your assessment that a Marauder is not a fighter.

 

[Necronic]

You don't have to grab those 2h nodes, it's just a shorter path. Here's the normal path

level 5
http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgEBIQIq9jH7e4znrg==

you can use swords till like lvl 15 or so

Level 12, dex = 54 you can use swords up to lvl 25
http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgEBC2EhAir2MBkx-1W1cD55aHuMoLTBBOeu6hg=

lvl 25 dex = 84 you can use swords up to lvl 50 or so, and you're now in a good position to start taking 1h nodes in the deulist tree (like water dancing)
http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-...wGTH7R35VtXA-eA15aHuMhNmgtKQZq8W-ir6nwQTnruoY

edit: These builds are NOT asinine. Take it from someone who has clocked quite some time in the game.

What's asinine is locking yourself into a weapon early on. Most players will tell you that its a bad idea to take weapon nodes early in the game.

 

[Dave]

The path I gave you on the page before this one shows a path to become a Sword Master...and you can't use a sword unless you take nodes out of your way. This is craziness. You should not have to take nodes you don't want to be able to use a basic tool of the craft.

 

[Necronic]

I think the big thing is it forces you to go after those dex nodes so early in the game that is a big pain. Almost any build will eventually work its way around to them but instead of being able to grab the things near your starting point, the game forces you to travel a ways, ignoring health and damage to get it. Yeah you can grab those things later but it is not very satisfying to have your last 8 lvl ups be only the stat point that your character is situated in. I started playing a few characters and I always have to rush to get those +30nodes.

Versatility is the thing you grab right next to you. People go all over the place in their builds. Most people don't stay in their area for very long at all.

this is a very good bow ranger build, stays in its area more than most do

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-...jaudS7Djtg-4O7m_vDu9O8B_yL_T49kj3Mve--Ov60vzF


Here's a dw ranger build, almost immediately leaves its own area

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-...dDd7G37_nCudS6mLtg-8O707vevAf8i_z3fZI9776sfzF

Here;s a dual claw shadow build I am trying to sort out

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-...mf6p_qrisurGztMW1SM_40hnW0d-_53TtQe9O_MX_kw==[DOUBLEPOST=1361981361][/DOUBLEPOST]

The path I gave you on the page before this one shows a path to become a Sword Master...and you can't use a sword unless you take nodes out of your way. This is craziness. You should not have to take nodes you don't want to be able to use a basic tool of the craft.

I don't know which node you're talking about, didn't see one called sword master. There is one called Legendary swordsman near Blood Drinker, which is one I would definitely take with either of the sword builds I listed since I would likely go to Blood Magic later on

 

[Dave]

Yeah, that's the one. I wasn't in the screen at the time.

 

[Necronic]

Ah well that's a great one to get. You probably wouldn't take it too early, but you would grab it alongside the Blood drinker node (since you would probably want blood magic later in game.). I jus wouldn't suggest grabbing it too early in game. There are plenty of 1h melee dmg nodes that don't specify swords. The reason is that you may come across an axe or a macs that you really want to use. People don't usually specialize that much too early (some exceptions of course)

 

[Vrii]

It was already pointed out...3 minutes before I did. So it's probably because I was in the tree poking around and Rovewin is a faster typist.

But the Marauder is the game's pure strength character. Duelist is the hybrid STR/DEX. So I would argue that Marauder is the pure fighter and Duelist is more like a swashbuckler/fencer. And most swords are NOT fencing weapons, but fighting weapons. I disagree with your assessment that a Marauder is not a fighter.

Actually it was pointed out yesterday? The day before? You have a preset expectation for the class which doesn't match its design, and you're mad that you can't force it into what you're looking to do without some effort. "fighter" isn't a term with any meaning in this game, and using it to justify a need for swords to be usable by everyone makes no sense.

Basically, if you want to a) use swords and b) make optimal use of the passive tree, you want to roll Duelist. That's the game's design. If you want to be a Marauder because they're more of a "fighter," and you absolutely have to use swords for whatever reason, that's not going to be optimal. You can do it, you can maybe even do it well, but it's not the core design of the class so you're going to have to sacrifice something for it. You can dislike it all you want, but that doesn't make it a flaw in the game.

 

[Necronic]

I mean, you can still roll a sword character from the maurader tree, and there may be a good reason to do it (like earlier access to life and leech and resist nodes.). You just have to have a plan.

 

[GasBandit]

Actually it was pointed out yesterday? The day before? You have a preset expectation for the class which doesn't match its design, and you're mad that you can't force it into what you're looking to do without some effort. "fighter" isn't a term with any meaning in this game, and using it to justify a need for swords to be usable by everyone makes no sense.

Basically, if you want to a) use swords and b) make optimal use of the passive tree, you want to roll Duelist. That's the game's design. If you want to be a Marauder because they're more of a "fighter," and you absolutely have to use swords for whatever reason, that's not going to be optimal. You can do it, you can maybe even do it well, but it's not the core design of the class so you're going to have to sacrifice something for it. You can dislike it all you want, but that doesn't make it a flaw in the game.

This feels like trying to have an argument with a brony.

 

[PatrThom]

Gotta say I agree with Vrii here. Dave has a lot of preconceived notions about how things "should" work based on how they work in other systems/games/philosophies. I might get mad that my herb-using "Druid" character can't make potions (like my Druid from M&M VI could) and complain that I shouldn't have to choose a science-based class named "Chemist" because Druids should be able to make potions. Short truth is that if I want to make potions my mainstay in NewGame, and the designers of NewGame put all the potion perks in the Chemist tree, then I probably want to roll a Chemist instead of a Druid, no matter what my inclination might be.

--Patrick

 

[GasBandit]

I don't agree with the "if you want to use swords roll a duelist" argument because there are two distinct types of swords - those clearly meant for duelists (epee/foil types with high DEX requirements) and conventional types (broadsword/claymore types with high strength requirements and just enough DEX to make them inconvenient for marauders). The STR requirement on the latter is MUCH higher than the DEX, so clearly somebody also thinks they're marauder inclined, given that he's the "pure" STR class.

But the point Dave and I are making is that the sword-n-board pure tank is a trope so common it's supposed to be a given. A fantasy game not providing such an archetype is the equivalent of... oh I don't know, a restaurant not taking credit cards. I mean, sure it's their restaurant, they can do what they want, but in this day and age doing so is bewildering given the number of people who will probably assume that such a standard option is naturally available.

 

[Necronic]

Please show me how the two builds I linked would not allow you to use swords with a maurader?

 

[Vrii]

I'll also point out that my current highest-level character is a mid-40s marauder using a 2h sword.

 

[CynicismKills]

I don't agree with the "if you want to use swords roll a duelist" argument because there are two distinct types of swords - those clearly meant for duelists (epee/foil types with high DEX requirements) and conventional types (broadsword/claymore types with high strength requirements and just enough DEX to make them inconvenient for marauders). The STR requirement on the latter is MUCH higher than the DEX, so clearly somebody also thinks they're marauder inclined, given that he's the "pure" STR class.

But the point Dave and I are making is that the sword-n-board pure tank is a trope so common it's supposed to be a given. A fantasy game not providing such an archetype is the equivalent of... oh I don't know, a restaurant not taking credit cards. I mean, sure it's their restaurant, they can do what they want, but in this day and age doing so is bewildering given the number of people who will probably assume that such a standard option is naturally available.

God forbid a game try and take a different approach to conventional fantasy archetypes.[DOUBLEPOST=1361986081][/DOUBLEPOST]

I'll also point out that my current highest-level character is a mid-40s marauder using a 2h sword.

My Templar (str/magic for those keeping score) used a 2h sword from 25 to about 32, when I finally decided to make him focus on staves.

 

[Necronic]

So anyways I am really liking the Templar for starting areas. Tons of resists, tons of life, great elemental damage. I'm just not sure if I want to take it south through the Maurader tree or up into the witch tree. Any thoughts?

Ed: oh yeah you know there are attribute amulets right? Need a touch of dex just grab a jade amulet

 

[Gared]

Thinking about this long running conversation, I actually rolled a new Marauder last night in HC to see if I could make a viable HC 2-h sword Marauder - and I gotta say, it's been working great so far. Of course, the character is only level 13 so far, but I only have slightly less Dex than I do Str (60 Str and 54 Dex). Here's the build. And yes, I've bypassed several nodes that could be very useful, but I'm not so far away from them that I can't go back and pick them up from where I am now - it's not like you can only go forward in one linear path, so as soon as I pick up those armor nodes at the end, I can go back and pick up more of the sword specific nodes or some health nodes, or jog up from the last major curve and pick up some of those reduced mana cost nodes. All in all, it's probably one of the more fun Marauder builds I've had.

 

[GasBandit]

Please show me how the two builds I linked would not allow you to use swords with a maurader?

I'm going to try some of them out and see how they work before I kibitz. I haven't had an opportunity yet though.

God forbid a game try and take a different approach to conventional fantasy archetypes.

Eliminating expected options does not originality make. "We're going to have a wild west game... where cowboys can't use pistols. Just rifles. If you want to shoot pistols you have to be a gambler. Because gamblers use derringers, thus all pistols are for gamblers. BRILLIANT"

 

[Necronic]

Wait a damned second Gared. Are you saying you actually PLAYED THE GAME to see if there was actually an issue? Madness I say.

 

[Vrii]

I'm going to try some of them out and see how they work before I kibitz. I haven't had an opportunity yet though.

Eliminating expected options does not originality make. "We're going to have a wild west game... where cowboys can't use pistols. Just rifles. If you want to shoot pistols you have to be a gambler. Because gamblers use derringers, thus all pistols are for gamblers. BRILLIANT"

Which doesn't relate to this game at all, because absolutely every class is capable of using swords.

 

[GasBandit]

Which doesn't relate to this game at all, because absolutely every class is capable of using swords.

So long as they don't care about the endgame.

 

[Vrii]

So long as they don't care about the endgame.

So the optimal builds should all conform to genre standards? Or what's the argument here?

 

[Gared]

Wait a damned second Gared. Are you saying you actually PLAYED THE GAME to see if there was actually an issue? Madness I say.

Well, to be fair I've tried the two handed sword marauder before and failed, but that was one of the first few characters I played and I didn't really know the system or the tree as well as I do now. So, we'll see.

 

[GasBandit]

So the optimal builds should all conform to genre standards? Or what's the argument here?

Well, mind you I obviously haven't gotten there myself yet, I'm going entirely off hearsay, but the impression I'm left with is that to be effective in the endgame (that is, upper levels hardcore) you are pretty much railroaded into one path because the points you have to divert to getting nodes that allow your marauder to use swords are thus not spent in other "core" areas, and for example, hammers don't have this issue because their only requirement is STR, which the marauder can't help but spend points as he moves around his side of the table. Thus, it's really not an issue of the game conforming to standards, but the players having to conform to the minmaxed build with only the illusion of choice - particularly when it comes to gear and especially weapon type. Would you say that is an inaccurate statement?

 

[Necronic]

Is this the impression you've gottten by the people in this thread who have almost zero experience with the game? Because there seems to be some serious tribal misinformation snowballing in here. I'll repeat this ONE MORE TIME.

THERE ARE OVER 40 POSSIBLE IN GAME BUILDS THAT I CAN RATTLE OFF QUICKLY. There are probably a lot more than that.

 

[Vrii]

Yeah, there are a bunch of builds available for each class, weapon type, spell selection, etc. It's definitely not a one-build-per-class thing like most MMOs or whatever.

 

[GasBandit]

Is this the impression you've gottten by the people in this thread who have almost zero experience with the game?

Actually, one of your posts was one of those that most firmly drove this home to me -

I was wrong before, Axe is Str/Dex. So unless you plan on taking some dex nodes (not really a good idea for most maurader builds), I would go hammer (straight str, and bonus phys dmg intrinsic property)

[DOUBLEPOST=1361993307][/DOUBLEPOST]PS. This IS Hello Kitty Island Adventure! It's just the cats seem to burst into flames whenever I pet them.