Ignoring Supreme Court: Obama's warrant-less tracking

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Chad Sexington

Chad Sexington

Charlie Don't Surf said:
also mildly getting back on topic despite not wanting to bother anymore

People only care about shit happening when it happens to them or someone they know. old white dudes have all the power and them and their friends have probably never been pulled over for driving while black or had their shit searched or had a gun pointed at them.

It's like that shithead senator who now gives a huge big fuck about gay rights since his son came out of the closet (see also: Cheney, Dick)
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I don't understand this dismissive attitude. I'm really glad that Sen Portman now backs gay rights. Shouldn't this kind of change of heart be something we rejoice over? Yes, he 'only' cares because it happened to someone he knows, but that's still a positive change. He didn't dismiss his son, or criticise him. He not only welcomed his son's sexual orientation, he embraced the whole gay community by announcing he supported them.

I'd love everyone to put themselves in the shoes of others without having to literally know someone or personally suffer the indignities that others have gone through. That'd be awesome, it would make the world a better place. But I am still happy when other reasons for a positive change come about and give us hope.

I guess I am just confused. You want people to stop being patriarchal and an old boys club, but when one of them has a change of heart, you call him a shithead. What can he do to redeem himself? Go back in time and change his original stance on gay rights? Sadly not an option. But he can work now and in the future to make things better, so let's welcome that change.
 
Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

I'm happy for his vote, sure, but the logic is still spurious at best

I'd feel the same way if someone became a hawk after their son died in a terrorist attack (see: everyone voting for the Patriot Act in 2001)
 
Cajungal

Cajungal

Staff member
I can sympathize with people who start to understand the importance of an issue after giving it a "face." I've been there. It's not ideal, but it's one way to arrive at a good decision. This is purely anecdotal, but I feel that I became more open to considering different points of view after realizing that an issue I'd ignored affected someone I loved. Hopefully it can be that way for others too.
 
Chad Sexington

Chad Sexington

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I'm happy for his vote, sure, but the logic is still spurious at best

I'd feel the same way if someone became a hawk after their son died in a terrorist attack (see: everyone voting for the Patriot Act in 2001)
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While I agree the logic is spurious, I suppose I am more hopeful it will result in future deeper considerations by Portman on other issues as well as gay rights. Maybe he'll ask himself, "But if it were me, or my family...". Which, itself, isn't always the right question but might lead to better ones. Maybe I am too optimistic.

I feel like calling him a shithead does no one favours though. I feel like you're ever willing to point all that's wrong -and believe me, there's a lot wrong and people need to point it out- but you rarely acknowledge or celebrate the right things, the just things, the happy good things. Obviously I only see you through the filter of Halforums and maybe you're a lot less cynical one-on-one, but, I mean, celebrate this shithead's change of heart! Even if just in a small way it shows people can change :D The dreams of a better future are well and alive as long as we know people can come to new conclusions.
 
Bowielee

Bowielee

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I'm happy for his vote, sure, but the logic is still spurious at best

I'd feel the same way if someone became a hawk after their son died in a terrorist attack (see: everyone voting for the Patriot Act in 2001)
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It's times like this that I realize exactly how armchair your views on everything are. The absolute BEST way to help people understand that those of different classes/races/sexualities, etc... is to get to know one. It humanizes them, which goes a loooooong way to changing their point of view and starting to view these people as part of the same in group.

And that's not just me saying that, it's decades of social psychology research and experimentation.
 
strawman

strawman

Bowielee said:
I'm not even rising to your bait anymore. You truly are the thickest person if you're not trolling. You also are talking completely out of your ass.

http://www.amazon.com/Social-Psychology-Plus-MyPsychLab-eText/dp/020591201X

do yourself a favor.
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Keep in mind that Charlie has said that he doesn't believe people can change except, perhaps, on the surface. I recall a very long and frustrating argument with him on it, and as far as I can tell he believes that any deep change someone experiences is actually their own subconscious belief coming to the surface. Similarly, if someone has believed one thing stoutly for a very long time, it's much more likely that they are only paying lip service to a change of heart rather than actually having had a real change of heart.

I suspect it's also the reason he keeps going on and on about the ills of our society, culture, and educational system. If one believes that people can't really change past childhood, then the only solution to any and every problem is not reform or punishment of the perpetrator, it's changing society so the person never holds the bad belief in the first place.

But chances are I've got it all wrong, and even if I have some of it right in broad strokes I'm sure there's a lot more nuance to his actual beliefs, compared to my assumptions.

Still, it does explain why he wouldn't care for someone who only recently appears to be supporting gay rights.
 
Bubble181

Bubble181

A) If you're not OK with a change of heart because of personal experience, are you also willing to throw out Saint Paul and, with him, half of the New Testament? Saul was a prosecutor becfore he became a Christian.

B) If you're not OK with a change of heart because of personal experience, what else is there? ALL of our opinions are formed by what we've experienced, or what we've been told, or because of our own, original thought process. Let's be serious and admit that about 90% of the people don't, don't want, and never will, think seriously about ethical issues themselves. Even smart, intelligent people tend to spend most of their time trying to sort out other people's ideas and making their own mind up about those other opinions or points, not actually forming new original thoughts. It's hard, and most good ones have been had already. So....if people hold a specific belief because they've been told it's the right thing in childhood, it's OK, but if they are taught A and later realize B is right, that's not valid? that's the opposite of logical. There's a reason poachers make the best groundskeepers and converts are the most zealous.

C) "Laissez-faire" means "to let them do what they want"; this wasn't a wrong usage. If I allow the government to search and whatever anyone they want, and I just look on and do nothing, that's the very definition of laissez-faire. Laissez-faire, laissez-passer is another, similar attitude, for which this would be wrong.

D) Bhamv, I think during Bush we, non-americans, saw a lot of younger/more modern USA complain and moan about such measures on the internet, while we didn't see much of the ones not complaining. It's modern, young and left America that's now being much less vocal in their opposition because Obama is "their" candidate, or at least "the lesser of two evils".
 
Chad Sexington

Chad Sexington

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I agree that it's effective. I just have a hard time standing and applauding someone for realizing that homosexuals are human beings
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I definitely see this differently than applauding someone for acknowledging the humanity of others. I don't know what conversation stienman is referring to but I am of the belief people can have meaningful philosophical changes and it is that aspect that bolsters my spirit here.

DarkAudit said:
EVERYTHING he posts is a troll. He's said as much. He never came here with anything but ill intent. Crone saw to that.

Hell, even his pics scream "please punch me in the face. Repeatedly." :facepalm:
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I remember his saying that he communicates with snark a lot, but that's not the same as saying everything he says is a troll. I don't get why people feel personally riled by his posts; he sure does get results though. But, my family and friends are sarcastic, sharp, smug people and maybe I'm just used to it.

Also I don't know I've ever seen a photo of Charlie Don't Surf.
 
blotsfan

blotsfan

Considering IIRC Charlie said he used to be a libertarian racist*, I think its pretty hypocritical of him to say no one can change.

*Sorry if this isn't true at all.
 
Chad Sexington

Chad Sexington

Bubble181 said:
A) If you're not OK with a change of heart because of personal experience, are you also willing to throw out Saint Paul and, with him, half of the New Testament? Saul was a prosecutor becfore he became a Christian.
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Persecutor.

Also see: The Varieties of Religious Experience by William James, which everyone should read. Oddly enforced my atheism despite its subjects and conclusions. Fascinating studies of more contemporary people who underwent massive changes to their core.
 
Bubble181

Bubble181

Sorry, I know I get prosecutor and persecutor mixed up, and when I think about it I know which is which, but....Eh, 5 am posting :p Point stands though ;)

And it's not at all strange to find atheism or agnosticism reinforced by religious books; on the contrary. It can help you find a better understanding of why people believe and you don't; it can help make you realize that what you feel isn't "real" faith and you're just going along for appearances as well. It's never a bad idea to inform yourself from different sides of a conversation/discussion/topic, as long as all sides make sense.
 
Chad Sexington

Chad Sexington

Bubble181 said:
Sorry, I know I get prosecutor and persecutor mixed up, and when I think about it I know which is which, but....Eh, 5 am posting :p Point stands though ;)

And it's not at all strange to find atheism or agnosticism reinforced by religious books; on the contrary. It can help you find a better understanding of why people believe and you don't; it can help make you realize that what you feel isn't "real" faith and you're just going along for appearances as well. It's never a bad idea to inform yourself from different sides of a conversation/discussion/topic, as long as all sides make sense.
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Oh, certainly. I meant more from it's resoundingly optimistic tone and glowing joy in describing the various ways in which people experience 'religion' (although not in the strict sense of hierarchical organisations). The fact that it reinforced my atheism isn't odd, actually, I meant more (though I phrased it ambiguously) that it reinforced my atheism in an odd manner.

I guess this isn't really on topic at all.

Anyway I was just teasing about the persecutor/prosecutor thing. I am pretty sure everyone knew what you meant :p
 
T

The_Khan

Chad Sexington said:
I definitely see this differently than applauding someone for acknowledging the humanity of others. I don't know what conversation stienman is referring to but I am of the belief people can have meaningful philosophical changes and it is that aspect that bolsters my spirit here.


I remember his saying that he communicates with snark a lot, but that's not the same as saying everything he says is a troll. I don't get why people feel personally riled by his posts; he sure does get results though. But, my family and friends are sarcastic, sharp, smug people and maybe I'm just used to it.

Also I don't know I've ever seen a photo of Charlie Don't Surf.
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He posted one a while back when he was trying to bring the Hitler stash back into fashion.
 
Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

DarkAudit said:
Read his posts. Fair to say some of them are pretty damn racist.
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citation needed

I don't post many pictures since I have a thin skin about my appearance and am slightly worried someone would say something mean or just joking and I'd take it badly and feel bad. I was at a wedding this past weekend with like 3 really good photographer type friends that probably took flattering pictures + I was dressed up in person clothes
 
DarkAudit

DarkAudit

Charlie Don't Surf said:
citation needed
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I'm away from the PC so I don't have a direct link, but your reply in the jury duty thread to knowing a suspect was guilty was "because he was black?" when it never came up in the post.

TBH, it's mostly you accusing the rest of us of racism, sexism, bigotry, misogyny, and what have you.

Which is just as bad.
 
Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

DarkAudit said:
I'm away from the PC so I don't have a direct link, but your reply in the jury duty thread to knowing a suspect was guilty was "because he was black?" when it never came up in the post.

TBH, it's mostly you accusing the rest of us of racism, sexism, bigotry, misogyny, and what have you.

Which is just as bad.
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that was a flippant joke, but you got me there, I'm the true racist.
 
strawman

strawman

Charlie Don't Surf said:
citation needed

I don't post many pictures since I have a thin skin about my appearance and am slightly worried someone would say something mean or just joking and I'd take it badly and feel bad. I was at a wedding this past weekend with like 3 really good photographer type friends that probably took flattering pictures + I was dressed up in person clothes
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Hopefully the pictures came out good enough for you to post one, but there are lots here who don't post pictures so don't feel bad about not doing it. I've found that as much as some disagree with me on some very personal things, no one has every posted something unkind about any personal images I've posted, not even the "Vagina: not a clown car" meme, which says a lot about the community. But you do engender significant ire in some people that is different than the irritation that I given them, so perhaps you would be treated differently. I hope not, but humans are funny and unpredictable creatures.

Also, if you are rocking a toothbrush mustache as The_Khan asserts, that would be hilarious. Add a bowler hat and be Charlie Don't Chaplin for a month.
 
Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

I believe that pic was a goofy one off I took while I was in the middle of shaving a full-ish beard and I never left the house with it, but I don't remember for sure.
 
strawman

strawman

Krisken said:
My wind up pocket watch will still run long after your battery drips in a landfill.
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As long as you keep winding it and maintain it. My Casio W71 requires a new battery once every decade or so.

If you aren't getting your windup serviced every decade it's going to bind up on you.
 
Krisken

Krisken

stienman said:
As long as you keep winding it and maintain it. My Casio W71 requires a new battery once every decade or so.

If you aren't getting your windup serviced every decade it's going to bind up on you.
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Do you know how to make a battery for your watch? I know how to maintain my watch.
 
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