Gas Bandit's Political Thread V: The Vampire Likes Bats
- Thread starter GasBandit
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I propose that Texas change their state motto to "at least we're not Alaska."
Unless you were in Alaska, you've only met the ones that were sane enough to leave.
That's a fair point.
http://shine.yahoo.com/healthy-living/is-human-isolation-causing-alaskas-rape-epidemic-359692.html
Alaska is even the rape capital of the United States. It is not in this article but a friend Law Enforcement Officer said that not only is a woman in Alaska highly likely to be raped during her lifetime. But raped a couple of times if she lives her entire life in Alaska...
Alaska is even the rape capital of the United States. It is not in this article but a friend Law Enforcement Officer said that not only is a woman in Alaska highly likely to be raped during her lifetime. But raped a couple of times if she lives her entire life in Alaska...
GasBandit
Staff member
Jumpin' Jeezus on a pogo stick, here we go again.
Yeah, I gotta agree. Cost of living is double in NYC than it is here. They need to be making more then 8/hour.
I find their logic to be faulty. The main argument is that they can't support a family on their current wages; entry-level positions in the fast food world were never meant to support families. If that's a concern, find a better job.
Agreed. Assuming a 40-hour work week and no vacation, $7.25 is $15K/year. You can barely live in the shitty parts of the outer boroughs on that.[DOUBLEPOST=1365116328][/DOUBLEPOST]
Easier said than done. New York is not exactly short of job-seekers, and when your margin of living is that small, it's hard to take time off to spend more time job-hunting.
This. I had a TA here who bragged about how he had a job offer in NYC for $100,000 a year after college. He said how he was gonna be able to earn that for 20 years and then have a nice retirement. When I tried explaining how 100,000 isn't a ton of money when you live there, he just said that I was jealous and didn't know what I was talking about. Ok guy...
So what job exactly is a High School dropout with a child on the way supposed to take or is he just screwed? (I was once that person).
GasBandit
Staff member
You do realize that now he can't reply honestly, right? Because you've personalized the argument.
Even without making it personal, it's still a shitty topic. Anyone can say what SHOULD be done when they're looking at it from the outside.
GasBandit
Staff member
Actions have consequences. There's my short version. I hate to say it but the self you describe in the past was a colossal fuckup.
And one fuck up should mean the innocent suffer? Actions should have consequences, not death/starvation.
Pull themselves up by their bootstraps and all that right?
Of course not, he's a Libertarian.
GasBandit
Staff member
I've never dropped out of high school with no marketable skills and gotten a girl pregnant all at the same time, no. That's not "one" fuck up, that's a cascading cavalcade of terrible, irresponsible life decisions that can be well expected to ruin the lives of all involved. And no, nobody owes you a living wage because of your horrible life decisions.
Wrong. It's one fuck up that leads to the rest. Of course noones owes anyone a living wage because of horrible life decisions. To say that the lowest end job isn't enough to support a family and therefore that person with a family (and as you said, no marketable skills) should just get a better job however is not exactly an option is it?
GasBandit
Staff member
I was unaware that there are high schools where fathering a child is grounds for expulsion.
No but there are plenty of parents who run a child out of their home for fathering/mothering a child. Therefore that child must now work full time to support said family and no longer has the opportunity to attend full time school.
Simply put, you being to put your priorities in order: The Child > Your Spouse/Partner > Yourself. Of course getting an education in the end helps the family/child but you're not able to do that at that time any longer. It's considered a luxury you/your family cannot afford.
Ever feel like you are on a merry go round?
Here's what I'm hearing: 2 surprisingly relevant and important points being made in the midst of this discussion.
1) People make mistakes. Those mistakes can lead to some very hard life choices that mean they won't have as much opportunity as others. They will probably need some help in order succeed. While it's important that we help people make better choices it's just as important to help those who have are past that point and are struggling.
2) Lets work to make folks aware of the consequences of potential actions. Unprotected sex/sex at a young age, etc can lead to some difficult situations in life. As a society we need to do a better job of helping educate folks.
Of course we can ask of both points things like: Well, how much help do we give those folks and How do we properly educate someone?
Here's what I'm hearing: 2 surprisingly relevant and important points being made in the midst of this discussion.
1) People make mistakes. Those mistakes can lead to some very hard life choices that mean they won't have as much opportunity as others. They will probably need some help in order succeed. While it's important that we help people make better choices it's just as important to help those who have are past that point and are struggling.
2) Lets work to make folks aware of the consequences of potential actions. Unprotected sex/sex at a young age, etc can lead to some difficult situations in life. As a society we need to do a better job of helping educate folks.
Of course we can ask of both points things like: Well, how much help do we give those folks and How do we properly educate someone?
GasBandit
Staff member
Were you 18 at the time? If you were younger, what those parents did was a criminal act, even moral concerns aside.
All this is rather irrelevant anyway. We can NOT, as a society, remove the teeth from the consequences of bad decisions as a matter of policy otherwise people will not have reasons to make good decisions. It's the critical failing of every socialist/communist endeavor - why contribute when coasting doesn't affect your lot? Knocking up your girlfriend in high school needs to remain an action with horrible consequences for the good of society, if not the species. You aren't meant to raise a family on minimum wage, and you aren't meant to be having kids in high school. You managed to claw your way out, probably assisted by government assistance or private charity or some combination of those and more, so good on you, especially with unsupportive parents. But there is no possible way we can legislate away suffering - it's impossible from a fiscal standpoint, and abhorrent from an evolutionary one.
Bad decisions can have consequences, no problem, as long as those consequences aren't being unable to provide for yourself and, maybe, your family (I'm still not sold that minimum income should mean being able to support a family... I don't perceive having a family as a right, but perhaps society does). Of course people will have reasons to make good decisions. They'll want a TV, or a car, or a house, or if they already have them, those same things but bigger and nicer.[DOUBLEPOST=1365181493][/DOUBLEPOST]Ow, I thought we were on the spin-off thread.
Yeah you're purposely missing the point with the rest of your post.
It's supposed to be a stupid decision with consequences. Not one where the family starves. If the lowest income job available isn't enough for the family to survive on, even at it's lowest ends meets type of lifestyle, then there's something wrong with the system. Since most Republicans feel that the poor shouldn't have food stamps/medical needs help either, shouldn't they just hang themselves the moment they find out their wife/parter is pregnant after killing the mother and child? I mean that'd be less cruel than your options no?
GasBandit
Staff member
No, the rest of my post was addressing the actual meat of the argument that wasn't being hijacked by subjective appeals to emotion. If it becomes feasible for a teen "family" to drop out of high school and support themselves, it will encourage more teens to act in exactly that irresponsible manner.
I can't speak to what republicans want because I'm not one, but in my personal opinion you should have had an abortion, and your parents should have been held to account as you were presumably a minor at the time. I realize your parents were probably catholic, but I'm not particularly sympathetic to them - by their own standards what they did was already not very christian.
It's very clear you're outside looking in.
-You should have had an abortion- speaks volumes about your detachment to anything in the real world and how it's all about how it looks on paper.
The world doesn't work that way. Most Libertarians don't understand this and is the reason they will continue to be the minority in the political world. Thankfully.
-You should have had an abortion- speaks volumes about your detachment to anything in the real world and how it's all about how it looks on paper.
The world doesn't work that way. Most Libertarians don't understand this and is the reason they will continue to be the minority in the political world. Thankfully.
GasBandit
Staff member
You asked me what I thought you should do, so I told you what I thought you should have done, demonstrating that you had more options than drop out of school.
The world IS cruel. There were no happy ending choices you could have made in that situation. But you made the choice.
You are illustrating perfectly the fallacious arguing of subjective appeals to emotion. You say I can't have this argument because I haven't experienced your situation, I say you can't because you did.
Bad things happen. Not only can we not afford (financially or metaphorically) to completely shield people from the consequences of their actions, we can't even afford (merely financially this time) to protect them from misfortune over which they had no control, as often as not. Setting the minimum wage to a "living" wage capable of supporting a family is an economic suicide pill, one that will kill the poorest first because they won't get hired at all.
You're still talking paper vs real world. You just can't get away from that, I understand, but it's not going to change reality.
As long as there is a secondary set of help available, such as Food Stamps and Medical Aid, they won't need to be given a living wage. However as most Libs/GoPs want to be rid of all government assistance it becomes a death sentence doesn't it?