He probably could, but I think his plan is to destroy all of reality, and needs to be in the maze of many to do so. Really, Kin and Forgath might be obligated to stop him possibly at the cost of minmax.
Official Goblins (comic) Thread
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He probably could, but I think his plan is to destroy all of reality, and needs to be in the maze of many to do so. Really, Kin and Forgath might be obligated to stop him possibly at the cost of minmax.
North_Ranger
Staff member
NNNNOOOOOOOOOO!!!
figmentPez
Staff member
I am seething with rage at the moment. God damn that bastard psion needs to die a horribly painful death.
I could still see MinMax showing up and saving the day. All he'd have to do is use the sword to cut through the walls (no reason he couldn't with the sword's power), jump up and kick some ass.
That being said, I think something really bad is bound to happen.
That being said, I think something really bad is bound to happen.
North_Ranger
Staff member
I really hope Thunt's not going to kill off Kin. I heard there was some trouble involving him using names and races from the official D&D books. Y'know, like Maglubiyet, the goblin god... and the yuan-ti 
Again, they don't need them to begin with. If Minmax can create a portal to stick his sword through, why the hell couldn't he do it where the lock is? Or fuck, just slash it with the sword... then the lock wouldn't have existed and the door would be open.
Really, the whole keys thing seems like it was done to split the party.
Really, the whole keys thing seems like it was done to split the party.
Haters gonna hate.
Today, the psion is an adversary with goals incompatible with those of the party. Tommorrow, he may be a prospective ally, working together with whom can yield benefits.
The party may need to bring about the psion's death to further their own agenda, but it doesn't pay to hate him.
Today, the psion is an adversary with goals incompatible with those of the party. Tommorrow, he may be a prospective ally, working together with whom can yield benefits.
The party may need to bring about the psion's death to further their own agenda, but it doesn't pay to hate him.
And his efforts will need to be thwarted, as the fulfillment of his goals directly preclude the objectives of the party from being met. That is understood, as is the likelyhood that Psimax may need to be killed. If such is necessary or advantageous, then by all means they should proceed to do so. If it is neither, then the party would essentially be killing him for excrements and merryments, which is neither Good, Heroic, nor particularly smart.
Hatred, though, is not very likely to be conducive to success in either case. While it may give determination and drive to minions, strong emotions can interfere with the cool head and cold calculations necessary for decision making on the higher levels. And we saw what happened with Forgath's frontal assault against Psimax; barring a deus ex machina, the party will need to act smart with this one, rather than blindly charge and get creamed.
People in love do stupid things. People who hate can do so as well, as the single-mindedness clouding their judgment makes it more likely that they'll miss something, and slip up. In the heat of passion, it is easy for people to do things they'll later regret.
You should not desire the death of Psimax as anything more then a means to an end. But if you do, then I think the best thing to do would be to take a deep breath, clear your mind of strong emotions, and then start plotting his gruesome demise.
Hatred, though, is not very likely to be conducive to success in either case. While it may give determination and drive to minions, strong emotions can interfere with the cool head and cold calculations necessary for decision making on the higher levels. And we saw what happened with Forgath's frontal assault against Psimax; barring a deus ex machina, the party will need to act smart with this one, rather than blindly charge and get creamed.
People in love do stupid things. People who hate can do so as well, as the single-mindedness clouding their judgment makes it more likely that they'll miss something, and slip up. In the heat of passion, it is easy for people to do things they'll later regret.
You should not desire the death of Psimax as anything more then a means to an end. But if you do, then I think the best thing to do would be to take a deep breath, clear your mind of strong emotions, and then start plotting his gruesome demise.
figmentPez
Staff member
I have a radically different view of emotions than you do TommiR. Psimax is doing a horrible thing to Kin, and he needs to be stopped. Hatred does not equal stupidity. Hatred does not equal thoughtlessness. Hatred does not equal the "heat of passion". Hatred does not preclude clear thinking, plotting and rationality. Strong emotion is not counter to being effective.
GasBandit
Staff member
Really, I find psimax to be less "hateful" than some other previous villains of the series. He's using kin's leash, but somehow I doubt his treatment of her will measure up to what goblinslayer did. Psimax is an objective oriented person. Everything he does is simply to further his ultimate goal. Granted it is an evil goal, but he's not going out of his way to kick puppies like just about every other sentient villain has thus far.
It may indeed be that we have a different take on the utility of emotions. For people with the mental fortitude to remain calm, composed and in control of their feelings no matter what, it may be that strong emotions are less of a drawback. But for regular folks, emotions are buttons to push, feelings to manipulate. The stronger our emotions, the more likely we are to use them as criteria to detemine our actions. On the basic level, we take unnecessary risks to do what we think is 'good', and we pass up useful opportunities because they represent what we think is 'bad'. In short, strong emotions make us susceptible to acting according to what we feel, rather than retaining the flexibility to do what might actually work.
As a case in point, take your insistence on jumping to Kin's defence. A skilled adversary might see that as a weakness to exploit, something that I think was touched upon here.
Dave
Staff member
TommiR! I want to hear your views on this thread!!
figmentPez
Staff member
It's your assumption that I was insisting on jumping to Kin's defense. I said something had to be done, I didn't say that something involved any hurry to defend her. The best response to his reprehensible behavior is mot likely not hasty action.[DOUBLEPOST=1366920368][/DOUBLEPOST]
On the flip side, Psimax knows exactly how awful using that leash on Kin again will be. He knows enough of her history to know that she's been traumatized by it, and that she's intelligent and compassionate. Goblinslayer thought she was a monster, and abused her for his own pleasure, and he probably wasn't capable of fully intellectualizing the enormity of what he was doing. It was horrible, and he did it for his own pleasure, but it's questionable just how much he thought of it as an evil act. Psimax knows how evil he's being, he knows how selfish it is, he knows Kin is an intelligent and caring being fully capable of feeling, and he's doing it anyway for his own pleasure. Sure, he's not taking immediate pleasure out of torturing her, but he is seeking his own self-gratification in destroying everything. That's immensely more evil in my mind.
Alright. Though previously you did say he "is doing a horrible thing to Kin, and he needs to be stopped", which I did take to mean stopped from doing a horrible thing to Kin, which would require near-immediate action. But if you are taking a longer-term perspective on punishing him for his behavior, my contention is that it will likely meet with more success if you focus on the goal and keep emotions from interfering with your decision making, a task made more difficult the stronger the emotion.
figmentPez
Staff member
I prefer to come at things from a "wise mind" perspective. Coming at issues either from a purely emotional or a purely intellectual approach is rarely the best approach. Most of the time it is a combination of emotion and intellect that leads to the best decisions.
Any plan needs to deal with an element of uncertainty, and no plan survives first contact with the enemy, according to Moltke. In a rapidly changing situation with limited information, people fall back on their intuition, their 'gut feeling', to make the call. With a sharp mind conditioned by experience or proper training, those calls begin to find the mark more and more often.
I'm sure emotions have their place in interpersonal relationships, how individuals view themselves, and how they relate to society. But their net utility in drawing up plans and advising on courses of action outside the social sphere is, in my opinion, clearly negative.
But perhaps you could provide me with an indication as to how a strong emotion such as hatred of Psimax might be useful in furthering the goals of the party.
The stronger the emotion, the more difficult it gets to keep it from interfering in your decisions. Failure in this results in reduced effectiveness. That's pretty much my whole point.
Willpower and strength of mind results in increased effectiveness.
MinMax and Kin's Love emotion has already prevented Psimax from defeating them once. There's your example.
Agreed, provided that it is directed appropriately to facilitate the attainment of relevant objectives.
As a variable he had overlooked. His calculations were off, nothing more. If the color of Kin's hair or something had been a relevant variable and he had overlooked it, the calculation would have been off just the same.
figmentPez
Staff member
I'm talking about the utility of emotions in general, as a broad subject applicable to everyday life, not specifically about characters in a fictional world. However, if we want to talk about how emotions play out there as an analogy for the real world: Emotions can be a clue as to what we desire, or even what we need, they aren't unrelated to reality. While emotions don't necessarily correlate to truth, they do have a relationship to thought and action. If Minmax never let emotion interfere with his decisions, he wouldn't be friends with Kin, let alone in love with her. Heck, without strong emotion informing him that Goblinslayer was wrong, it's possible Kin wouldn't even be free now.
In life there is a need for balance between our emotions and our intellect. Sometimes the balance shifts towards emotion, it's generally more useful to be emotional when at a celebration, and listening too much to our intellect can get in the way. On the flip side, a surgeon needs to almost completely ignore emotion while at the operating table. However, a good surgeon isn't going to completely ignore emotion when talking with the patient before or after the surgery, and a general practitioner will need to deal with the emotional side of things to an even greater extent.
The emotions of Minmax ended up getting Kin freed, and gaining him something of a girlfriend. Had he kept those emotions in check, he would have had a high-level ranger as a party member. While it is all well and good that Kin got rescued, I think it is far from clear that this outcome is better at serving the interests of Minmax and Forgath.
Get in the way of what, to be more precise? I think I did agree that, in a social setting, emotions do serve a purpose. Sometimes one is expected to display mild emotion in order to not seem cold and unfeeling to others, an impression which might result in an unnecessary social disadvantage. Even so, though this might vary between different cultures, displays of strong emotion are generally associated with small children, whereas grown adults are usually expected to act thoughtful and restrained, and keep their emotions in check.
I doubt he cares much at all about them. I think the current discussion is something along the lines of the utility of strong emotions in furthering interests and accomplishing set objectives.
figmentPez
Staff member
You really think Minmax and Forgath would be pleased to be travelling around with an evil dickwad whose morality offends them? They might be more effective in battle or dungeons, but that's hardly a good trade-off. What can be put-up with at a gaming table for a few hours a week is really vastly different from what is ideal for real people. People who make decisions to endure someone like Goblinslayer in real life end up worse off because he's a negative element despite his stats being an advantage. Long term he would have been in conflict with Minmax and Forgath on a personal level. In the real world such radical differences in personality either result in silent unhappiness, outright conflict or one side or the other having to change. Most of the time, it's the good people who end up corrupting their morals more and more over time when they make practical choices that violate their ethics for the sake of power.
Are you serious? I'm not talking about "displaying mild emotion", I'm talking about genuinely being happy at a party. I'm talking about feeling a sense of joy at completing work. I'm talking about just being happy to be with people you like, instead of trying to figure out if there's any "important" things you need to talk about while you're together.
I'm beginning to think we're not even talking about the same thing when we say "emotion". The five basic emotions: Happiness/joy, anger, fear, sadness and guilt. Every healthy human feels them, even if they're repressed they can still be present. Some people feel them stronger than others do, but feeling them is a normal and healthy function of all humans. Someone who chooses to become a grade-school teacher because they feel joyful taking care of children, even though they'd make more money becoming an accountant, is making a decision informed by their emotions, hopefully in balance with intellect. At a party someone who enjoys conversations because they're with people they like, instead of trying to wrangle business deals or some other practical concerns is making decisions informed by emotion, almost to the exclusion of intellectual reasons.
This is what I've been told by experts: people who ignore either their emotions, or their intellect, and make decisions based mostly on one or the other often end up making bad decisions that result in dysfunction.