[TV] S.H.I.E.L.D.

[Shawn]

I'm not sure what to say. I liked it enough that I'm going to continue watching, but is this the epic Marvel universe series we've been waiting for?
I'm always disappointed by a series that promises more than it delivers. When you think S.H.I.E.L.D you think high level homeland security risks that require expert tactical response. Coulson leads a team that is supposedly one of the highest security levels that the other six don't even know exist. And yet things just don't seem epic enough to warrant it. Take the first episode: Their team is challenged with the mission of finding a rookie super hero. And they kinda fumble their way to their objective. They have to track down a hacker who, for some reason, is one step ahead of the organization for years until they... actually start looking for her? She's in a van.... by a coffee shop... using their wifi.
This team hacks Tony Stark's shit all the time... and I'm supposed to believe that "The Rising Tide" gives them a run for their money?

Maybe I'll watch it again. Try and soak it in. It has some great lines as per Whedon's usual writing. I'm sure I'll like watching it. But it's likely going to continue to feel like it didn't live up to the hype.

 

[Covar]

Good second episode. Lots of great little things were addressed, and you get to see the team work together in a manner that implies that this is going to be a fairly balanced team show, much more so than Firefly. Not in the everyone can do everyone's job, but that everyone's role matters, and is of importance.

Things continue to be a fun ride.

Spoiler

We're going to have to cancel the fish tank.

 

[sixpackshaker]

Spoiler

"Don't talk to me about authority..."

 

[IronBrig4]

"You've got a bar..."

 

[ScytheRexx]

The one thing getting on my nerves a little is how much they are attempting to tie in with the movies. It's fine in moderation, but the first episode went a little overboard with how Michael got his power (Chitari tech mixed with super-serum, gamma rays, AND Extremis!? Jeesus), and in the second one we had a comment about Thor's Hammer, Hydra, Captain America, etc.

Also is it just me, but does Melinda feel like a huge attempt by the writers to get Black Widow into the show WITHOUT Black Widow? It's like they assumed they could use Black Widow in the show, but then realized they couldn't, and so changed the name on the script to Melinda, added a bit of a "Does not want to fight" angle to her background and called it a day.

 

[sixpackshaker]

At least this show was not the monster of the week...

Spoiler

Just the super weapon of the week.

 

[ScytheRexx]

Don't get me wrong, I would love Hydra to come back and become the main villain force, I just don't need Coulson adding "remember the movie Captain America?" every time it happens.

 

[Reverent-one]

Also is it just me, but does Melinda feel like a huge attempt by the writers to get Black Widow into the show WITHOUT Black Widow? It's like they assumed they could use Black Widow in the show, but then realized they couldn't, and so changed the name on the script to Melinda, added a bit of a "Does not want to fight" angle to her background and called it a day.

I don't think that's the case at all. For one, why would they think they could get Scarlett Johansson in the first place? The number of TV shows where she's played a recurring role in is 0. Even without that, other than being female and able to kick butt (which a large number of shield agents should be able to do) she has nothing in common with Widow. Ward's more the Widow type of agent, he's explicity compared to her in terms of skills in the opener and does the solo infiltration-and-kick-butt thing we've seen Widow do. May's nickname is "The Calvary", implying she comes in to other missions when there's trouble and salavages things.

 

[ScytheRexx]

I don't think that's the case at all. For one, why would they think they could get Scarlett Johansson in the first place? The number of TV shows where she's played a recurring role in is 0. Even without that, other than being female and able to kick butt (which a large number of shield agents should be able to do) she has nothing in common with Widow. Ward's more the Widow type of agent, he's explicity compared to her in terms of skills in the opener and does the solo infiltration-and-kick-butt thing we've seen Widow do. May's nickname is "The Calvary", implying she comes in to other missions when there's trouble and salavages things.

My thing about them writing in Black Widow and replacing her with Melinda was a joke. It's just the fact that the two seem overly similar skill wise. Melinda is a skilled martial artist, has a knack for infiltration (remember her sneaking up on that soldier in the last episode with a dislocated wrist?), a talented pilot (Black Widow is an ace pilot), and a very skilled gunman.

I don't really see Ward as the Widow-type. Yes, I know they said he was close to Widow's skill in the first episode, but after that we have seen him pretty much outmatched by Melinda at every turn. He takes out one guy? Melinda takes out three. He is tied up and can't get free? Melinda dislocates her wrist off to escape. Even the first episode has Ward actually struggling with two guys in that apartment, TWO GUYS that he beats up with kitchenware. Black Widow took out a whole frigging building full of goons in IM2, a mobster and his goons while tied to a chair in Avengers, and later took on an army of aliens. The fact they even compared Ward to her is a joke. Melinda fits the role much closer as the badass hand-to-hand assassin.

 

[Reverent-one]

My thing about them writing in Black Widow and replacing her with Melinda was a joke. It's just the fact that the two seem overly similar skill wise. Melinda is a skilled martial artist, has a knack for infiltration (remember her sneaking up on that soldier in the last episode with a dislocated wrist?), a talented pilot (Black Widow is an ace pilot), and a very skilled gunman.

I don't really see Ward as the Widow-type. Yes, I know they said he was close to Widow's skill in the first episode, but after that we have seen him pretty much outmatched by Melinda at every turn. He takes out one guy? Melinda takes out three. He is tied up and can't get free? Melinda dislocates her wrist off to escape. Even the first episode has Ward actually struggling with two guys in that apartment, TWO GUYS that he beats up with kitchenware. Black Widow took out a whole frigging building full of goons in IM2, a mobster and his goons while tied to a chair in Avengers, and later took on an army of aliens. The fact they even compared Ward to her is a joke. Melinda fits the role much closer as the badass hand-to-hand assassin.

Piloting's the only one of all those skills that you could say isn't something most or all SHIELD Field agents should be good with. May's demonstrated no skill in infiltration of the "disguse and act like someone else" type, and like I said doesn't seem to be used in the same way as SHIELD uses Widow (that would be Ward). Her personality is gruffer and more terse than Widow, and I can't see her putting up the seductive act that Widow does at times. Yes, like Widow she's badass, but that's such a non-specific thing, especially in a show about secret agents, and they definitely need more than just 2 out the six characters to be combat ready.

 

[ScytheRexx]

Piloting's the only one of all those skills that you could say isn't something most or all SHIELD Field agents should be good with.

I think you are giving the "average" field agent too much credit here. Remember, the average agent was getting killed by IronMonger in IM1, later on they were getting drop kicked by a depowered Thor or blown up by the Destroyer. I will give Ward credit that he is likely above the average when it comes to field agents, but he has shown little skill in anything other then gunmanship. I think that is my biggest problem with him as a character, they talk him up but have yet to even attempt to deliver it. The first showing of his skills with infiltration, he gets caught after two seconds with his hand in the cookie jar. He then gets into a fight and pretty much brawls his way out of it, not showing much in the way of finesse.

May's demonstrated no skill in infiltration of the "disguse and act like someone else" type, and like I said doesn't seem to be used in the same way as SHIELD uses Widow (that would be Ward)

Neither has Ward, really, unless you count him walking around in the first episode stealing plates as him trying to be "someone else." Melinda could have very well done those roles too, depending on what was needed. As for how SHIELD uses Widow, they use her for whatever they damn well please, whether an infiltrator in IM2, or a pilot/combat specialist in Avengers, which is close to how they are creating Melinda (remember, she was only supposed to be the pilot, not a combat specialist like she has started to become.)

Her personality is gruffer and more terse than Widow, and I can't see her putting up the seductive act that Widow does at times. Yes, like Widow she's badass, but that's such a non-specific thing, especially in a show about secret agents, and they definitely need more than just 2 out the six characters to be combat ready.

She is "gruffer" because they can't just take Black Widow point for point and make her an older asian woman, that was part of my joke about how they just changed her backstory. I think you kind of missed the point in that I think Melinda is supposed to be the "badass take on the world like a boss" chick that Black Widow plays. I never was trying to get into the specifics of their SHIELD dockets or clearance levels of service.

 

[Reverent-one]

I think you are giving the "average" field agent too much credit here. Remember, the average agent was getting killed by IronMonger in IM1, later on they were getting drop kicked by a depowered Thor or blown up by the Destroyer. I will give Ward credit that he is likely above the average when it comes to field agents, but he has shown little skill in anything other then gunmanship. I think that is my biggest problem with him as a character, they talk him up but have yet to even attempt to deliver it. The first showing of his skills with infiltration, he gets caught after two seconds with his hand in the cookie jar. He then gets into a fight and pretty much brawls his way out of it, not showing much in the way of finesse.

The exact level of skill varies, sure, but simply saying they both have generic skills X, Y, and Z doesn't make then the same character.

Neither has Ward, really, unless you count him walking around in the first episode stealing plates as him trying to be "someone else." Melinda could have very well done those roles too, depending on what was needed. As for how SHIELD uses Widow, they use her for whatever they damn well please, whether an infiltrator in IM2, or a pilot/combat specialist in Avengers, which is close to how they are creating Melinda (remember, she was only supposed to be the pilot, not a combat specialist like she has started to become.)

As it's used as an establishing mission for Ward, I do count that. And barring a massive alien invasion being underway, we see Widow primarily being used as a solo infiltrator (IM2 and the mission she was on when interrupted in The Avengers). Things we don't see May having any inclination towards.

She is "gruffer" because they can't just take Black Widow point for point and make her an older asian woman, that was part of my joke about how they just changed her backstory. I think you kind of missed the point in that I think Melinda is supposed to be the "badass take on the world like a boss" chick that Black Widow plays. I never was trying to get into the specifics of their SHIELD dockets or clearance levels of service.

A female who can kick a lot of butt isn't a character, it's an association of two character traits. You might as well say May is River post-Serenity or Echo from Dollhouse. Those personality differences that you wave off are the things that make the character a character and why she isn't just Widow with a different name.

 

[ScytheRexx]

A female who can kick a lot of butt isn't a character, it's an association of two character traits. You might as well say May is River post-Serenity or Echo from Dollhouse. Those personality differences that you wave off are the things that make the character a character and why she isn't just Widow with a different name.

Good point, but I think the difference for me is that said characters like River or Echo is that they were for the most part unique in their universes. That was what made them "special". You can't make every female a Buffy.

Melinda has the bad trait of existing in the same universe as Black Widow, working for the same group, and becoming the main badass female poster child of SHIELD for the tv series to counter Black Widow being that for the movies respectively, so you can't deny that the two will be compared.

 

[Reverent-one]

Good point, but I think the difference for me is that said characters like River or Echo is that they were for the most part unique in their universes. That was what made them "special". You can't make every female a Buffy.

Melinda has the bad trait of existing in the same universe as Black Widow, working for the same group, and becoming the main badass female poster child of SHIELD for the tv series to counter Black Widow being that for the movies respectively, so you can't deny that the two will be compared.

Sure they'll be compared, but you can compare two characters without one being another version of the other. Like they already compared Ward to Widow. My objection is more about that saying they just changed the name on the script and added a line to her backstory implies they're basically the same character. While I agree they have similarities, as befits characters who have similar jobs, I find May to be a distinct character.

 

[ScytheRexx]

Sure they'll be compared, but you can compare two characters without one being another version of the other. Like they already compared Ward to Widow. My objection is more about that saying they just changed the name on the script and added a line to her backstory implies they're basically the same character. While I agree they have similarities, as befits characters who have similar jobs, I find May to be a distinct character.

I will stress again that part was more a joke. I don't think they are actually literally the same character with a name change.

 

[Shawn]

Coulson has quite the team built. 1) A marksman who can shoot things, bitch about how pathetic the rest of the team is, and fall in love with the most pathetic of the team.
2) The Black Widow character who isn't he Black Widow and who's only emotion is "annoyed face".
3) The fumbling scientists who complete each other's sentences, are completely inept in the field, and are only not screwing each other because they are so nerdy that neither of them has the courage to ask each other out.
4) Skye. Kinda like the Doctor, Coulson is apparently okay with picking up random strangers whom he has gut feelings about.

I hope at the end of season 2 Ultron completely obliterates them all just as an intro for Avengers 2.

 

[AshburnerX]

I'm almost certain that Coulson picked up Skye to use her as a way to monitor the Rising Tide. He's not stupid.

 

[Ravenpoe]

3) The fumbling scientists who complete each other's sentences, are completely inept in the field, and are only not screwing each other because they are so nerdy that neither of them has the courage to ask each other out.

What? I don't see any sexual tension there whatsoever. They're more like siblings. Fitz also isn't too nerdy to show his fumbling infatuation with Skye.

 

[Shakey]

A raft? WTF...

 

[Espy]

Heard ratings were way down second episode.


I've thought it from the start but I will be sad if it's true: This show will probably not survive and it has nothing to do with Whedon. People want the Avengers. Just like I think a Gotham show without Batman won't survive. People just won't go for it in the long run.

 

[Covar]

Heard ratings were way down second episode.


I've thought it from the start but I will be sad if it's true: This show will probably not survive and it has nothing to do with Whedon. People want the Avengers. Just like I think a Gotham show without Batman won't survive. People just won't go for it in the long run.

Hell you can look at this thread and see the large number of complaints that boil down to "It's not Avengers."

 

[ScytheRexx]

The issue is when most people think of Marvel, they do think of super-heroes, not a regular ragtag group of humans. The first episode had Michael, but the second episode was pretty much void of any super-human abilities. Just them versus some soldiers. I think the expectation in the end will be what kills it, audiences likely will want more "heroes" showing up.

 

[Gusto]

I watched this. I like it so far!

But I find myself falling into both the spinoff series trap and the Whedon trap. Spending too much energy looking for main series references and characters, and Whedon alum, respectively.

 

[ThatNickGuy]

I'm quickly losing interest in the show, honestly. It's not that it's bad, it's just not as good as what I was expecting. I thought the second episode was better and maybe a little more in line with what I was expecting: espionage spy stuff. That's more of what SHIELD always was rather than superhero stuff. They were the clean-up crew after The Avengers did their business or were the canon fodder to blow up when shit goes down. The Helicarrier being boarded or blown up is a very common trope.

I think the problem is that the way the show was promoted, we thought Coulson was the main character. But really, he's the new Giles for the new Scooby Gang ala Buffy. And unfortunately, none of this Scooby Gang are really very interested to me.

 

[Shawn]

I'm quickly losing interest in the show, honestly. It's not that it's bad, it's just not as good as what I was expecting. I thought the second episode was better and maybe a little more in line with what I was expecting: espionage spy stuff. That's more of what SHIELD always was rather than superhero stuff. They were the clean-up crew after The Avengers did their business or were the canon fodder to blow up when shit goes down. The Helicarrier being boarded or blown up is a very common trope.

I think the problem is that the way the show was promoted, we thought Coulson was the main character. But really, he's the new Giles for the new Scooby Gang ala Buffy. And unfortunately, none of this Scooby Gang are really very interested to me.

I think you hit the nail on the head there. The problem with the show isn't necessarily the lack of super heroes, it's the lack of a team built with the capability of dealing with Super Heroes and similar threats. They got close with this last episode. They were dealing with a powerful weapon that was fueled by alien tech. Great start. Even the fact that there were no super heroes or villains involved, and just mortals is perfectly fine and perfect for the show. Ward's energy staff was also excellent. A nice device that looks like it could deal with some massive threats.
Whedon has plenty of potential with the show. He can make it work. Sadly... I think his issue right now is his characters. Not something you typically find issue in when it comes to Whedon. I think his problem is that he wants that colorful group of misfits that seem common with his writing, and is trying to forcefully add them to a show that's about the ultimate team of professionals. We should see five "Black Widows" on the team.
I highly doubt, that Fury would have appointed Coulson to Section 7, gave him his own team, and said "pick whoever... I don' fuckin' care."

Shows like Firefly work because the characters have wonderful strengths and flaws that make the characters work well together and rub each other the wrong way at the same time. No one was perfect, but they were all good at what they did. They needed each other.
I can forgive Fitz-Simmons. They at least have the technical skill to be useful. But I just can't appreciate Skye. As far as I can tell she's the Ma-ti of the show. She brings the power of "Heart" and "togetherness."

 

[ThatNickGuy]

I highly doubt, that Fury would have appointed Coulson to Section 7, gave him his own team, and said "pick whoever... I don' fuckin' care."

Maybe Level 7 isn't even a thing. Can you imagine that? The whole thing was designed just to see how much potential this Life Model Decoy of Coulson can go?

"Give the thing a team, a small budget made from Stark's couch change, and toss it to the wind."

 

[Ravenpoe]

Maybe Level 7 isn't even a thing. Can you imagine that? The whole thing was designed just to see how much potential this Life Model Decoy of Coulson can go?

"Give the thing a team, a small budget made from Stark's couch change, and toss it to the wind."

I actually assumed that's what this was. It's clear that Coulson (or RepliCoulson) is no longer a favorite of shield, and is working with table scraps.

 

[Covar]

Sky is most likely a mutant person with random super powers. They keep stating how she can do all this crazy hacking with nothing. She's Amadeus Cho.

 

[Shakey]

I actually assumed that's what this was. It's clear that Coulson (or RepliCoulson) is no longer a favorite of shield, and is working with table scraps.

That's what I thought too. But what bothers me most is that they used a freaking rubber inflatable raft to fix a nine foot wide hole in an airborne plane. The hell.

 

[MindDetective]

That's what I thought too. But what bothers me most is that they used a freaking rubber inflatable raft to fix a nine foot wide hole in an airborne plane. The hell.

It was just a mild suction. Easy to patch with whatever is lying around.

 

[Shakey]

It was just a mild suction. Easy to patch with whatever is lying around.

 

[AshburnerX]

That's what I thought too. But what bothers me most is that they used a freaking rubber inflatable raft to fix a nine foot wide hole in an airborne plane. The hell.

Mark my words: We're going to see this on Mythbusters.

 

[phil]

My knee jerk fanboy reaction is that this is a SHIELD show with 2 actual agents and no helicarrier and no real superheroes that I can root for. I don't actually care, but I want to. It's really going to need to pick up some aspect of those things if it wants to last a bit longer, at least to me.

 

[klew]

Ward's energy staff was also excellent. A nice device that looks like it could deal with some massive threats.

Used near identically in Serenity by Simon when rescuing River.

 

[Reverent-one]

I think you hit the nail on the head there. The problem with the show isn't necessarily the lack of super heroes, it's the lack of a team built with the capability of dealing with Super Heroes and similar threats. They got close with this last episode. They were dealing with a powerful weapon that was fueled by alien tech. Great start. Even the fact that there were no super heroes or villains involved, and just mortals is perfectly fine and perfect for the show. Ward's energy staff was also excellent. A nice device that looks like it could deal with some massive threats.
Whedon has plenty of potential with the show. He can make it work. Sadly... I think his issue right now is his characters. Not something you typically find issue in when it comes to Whedon. I think his problem is that he wants that colorful group of misfits that seem common with his writing, and is trying to forcefully add them to a show that's about the ultimate team of professionals. We should see five "Black Widows" on the team.

How boring that would be. Make a set of characters with similar badass abilities and they don't seem really badass or special anymore.

I can forgive Fitz-Simmons. They at least have the technical skill to be useful. But I just can't appreciate Skye. As far as I can tell she's the Ma-ti of the show. She brings the power of "Heart" and "togetherness."

She's been on one mission that didn't require hacking, give her a chance. And they're pointing towards giving her more training so that she's not dependent on hacking needing to be done to contribute.

My knee jerk fanboy reaction is that this is a SHIELD show with 2 actual agents and no helicarrier and no real superheroes that I can root for. I don't actually care, but I want to. It's really going to need to pick up some aspect of those things if it wants to last a bit longer, at least to me.

So which of Coulson, Ward, and May are you not considering an agent?