[Informational] Blacknova Traders

Dave

Staff member
AA Trade won't work anyway. I've been trying to get it to load and try it out, but the installer isn't working and I'll be damned if I'm going to go through thousands of files and change their permissions to 644 when I don't know if that will fix it.

So I'll get to work on the randomization and see where that takes me. It's still just a theory as I have no idea how the warps will be if I randomize them.
 

Dave

Staff member
Randomizing the sector warp routes is a pain in the ass. Essentially it works, but in almost all cases the warps are one-way, meaning trade routes will be hard to set up. I think the best way to take care of this would be to make it so that everyone starts with Warp Generators and make it so that they are able to carry more than they were before.
 
Randomizing the sector warp routes is a pain in the ass. Essentially it works, but in almost all cases the warps are one-way, meaning trade routes will be hard to set up. I think the best way to take care of this would be to make it so that everyone starts with Warp Generators and make it so that they are able to carry more than they were before.
Are you just randomizing a column of "out" warp connections? There may be a slightly more complex formula you can use to maintain two-way connections.
 

Dave

Staff member
I have it set so that each sector goes to the one before and after it, just as we do now. But then I have it set up to randomize both the "From" and "To" sector numbers. So some sectors will only be accessible from the sectors right next to them, while others will be hubs of activity.[DOUBLEPOST=1388955676,1388955645][/DOUBLEPOST]But if you know of a better formula, I'm all ears!
 
I have it set so that each sector goes to the one before and after it, just as we do now. But then I have it set up to randomize both the "From" and "To" sector numbers. So some sectors will only be accessible from the sectors right next to them, while others will be hubs of activity.
But the main problem is that a simple randomization removes the two-way connections, right? It's not easy to maintain that, but I've figured out that it can be done, just not in a single formula, I'm afraid.[DOUBLEPOST=1388956004,1388955731][/DOUBLEPOST]Probably the simplest way to do it is:

1.) Figure out how many two-way connections exist that are not immediate neighbors (I mostly have figured this out but forgot about the immediate neighbors being in there. If you can isolate those, then the rest is easy enough.) Let's call this number X
2.) Delete half X connections from the list that you determined in step 1.
3.) Randomize the remaining non-neighbor out connections
4.) Copy/paste the first X number of sectors back in from your new randomized list, but swap their columns, so the destination sector is now the starting sector and the starting sector is the destination sector.
 

Dave

Staff member
And that's exactly what I did. Good call![DOUBLEPOST=1388956449,1388956385][/DOUBLEPOST]And now I blow away the db for the new install and test it out with 2000 sectors and 500 planets.
 

Dave

Staff member
All tests worked, but the two-way warps didn't. So I have to try them again. But everything else worked perfectly.
 

Dave

Staff member
I figured it out. I had dragged my randomizer incorrectly, so it skipped about every 40th or so sector. It's fixed.[DOUBLEPOST=1388961187,1388960679][/DOUBLEPOST]Well everything works but one thing. The way that the SQL imports changes really large numbers, so that the randomization I did for the trade commodities did not come across at a 1:1 ratio and a lot of them simply defaulted to the allowed max. I'm okay with this.

So the enlarged and totally random test bed works perfectly now.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
So today I refused to pay a fine and hit 632,466 mines in one particular sector (after, of course, having to explain my philosophical aversion to graft to the 77,675 fighters) and learned some interesting facts - that I should carry more mine deflectors (which I now do), and fighters seem a rather overrated thing. Was interesting to test the Intransigent and her squadrons in a hostile situation, but it makes me sort of eager to see what she can do in a real firefight.
 
So today I refused to pay a fine and hit 632,466 mines in one particular sector (after, of course, having to explain my philosophical aversion to graft to the 77,675 fighters) and learned some interesting facts - that I should carry more mine deflectors (which I now do), and fighters seem a rather overrated thing. Was interesting to test the Intransigent and her squadrons in a hostile situation, but it makes me sort of eager to see what she can do in a real firefight.
Sector fighters also seem to drain energy rather quickly, which means maintaining them is a bit micromanagy.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Sector fighters also seem to drain energy rather quickly, which means maintaining them is a bit micromanagy.
Just need to have a planet producing energy with a few dozen million colonists hard at work. That's a good policy anyway, as the planetary defense base will use any extra energy produced to power their beams and shields in the event of an attack.
 
Just need to have a planet producing energy with a few dozen million colonists hard at work. That's a good policy anyway, as the planetary defense base will use any extra energy produced to power their beams and shields in the event of an attack.
I'm mainly aiming to upgrade my ship as much as possible right now. Experience from the last iteration shows that planets can be conquered fairly easily. So I'm not looking to build up big planets yet.

Of course, this means that my ship's actually relatively powerful right now. And I just ran into someone's unattended ship, just floating here in space...
 

GasBandit

Staff member
By the way, what do those colored bars underneath the planets mean?
Going by the filenames, they're supposed to denote size of the planet (population maybe?), but in my experience they track more along with the badassedness of the owner. I think.
 
Ok so I was testing out combat today too and it seems conquering planets is just not worth it. Them having a small max credit limit that only allows you to put a base on it since they lose their base in the attack makes it nonviable. It's cheaper to just buy your own colonists and put them on a planet instead of losing a bunch of fighters to claim one. Unless you find some poorly defended huge population planets but that's unlikely.

What I envision is having a set time frame and at the end the winner is the person with the highest ranking. Everyone will know when the end is and if it's close and someone is ahead, people can get teams together and jump their shit. It'll also keep things new and make it so that new people don't get locked out and feel that they can't play.
Anyway I know you can form teams but can you actually go in together on a toughly defended planet? Going in one by one the first person is likely to get crushed with the second pulling it out but can you both go in at the same time to minimize one of you getting destroyed. Otherwise I don't think getting together at the end to crush the leader is going to do much.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
As I understand it, no, there's no way to attack jointly. If 3 people want to attack 1 person, they have to do it 1 at a time, and the first person is most likely to die, the last person least.

Also, if you attack someone in open space and they have an EWD, it engages automatically to escape. It is not clear to me if this creates a new warp path for the attacker to follow, but I don't believe it does. This comes after two other rolls, however.. first you must roll your engines vs the target engines to see if they "outmaneuver" you which aborts combat, and then you must roll your sensors vs their cloak to see if you can even get a weapons lock. If you fail either of these two rolls, you do not get to attack, and the EWD does not trigger.

However, if you land on a planet, it seems to indicate your desire to stay and defend to the death in all circumstances, so EWDs won't save you if you land. However, you do have the benefit of defending in tandem against people who attack your planet - IE, both you and the planet will each get attack rolls vs the defender in the same combat sequence, so in effect you and the planet "gang up" on an attacker. I don't know if landing on a planet also disables your escape pod, but I would hope not.

The FAQ seems a little confusing on the maneuver/targeting rolls, so a simplified version of the formula is:

Chance to succeed attack maneuver roll percentage = (AttackerEngine-DefenderEngine+10)*5. So if you and your target have the same engine levels, that's a 50/50 chance on the maneuvering roll. If your engines are 15 and his are 20, that's a 25% chance to succeed. Obviously, this means the practical upshot of this is that there's a linear percentage chance on success at 5 percent per engine level, plus or minus 10 engine levels of your target... IE, if your engines are 10 levels below your target's you will never catch him, and if yours are 10 levels above his, he cannot possibly escape.

The targeting roll is the same formula, only the attacker's sensors are rolling against the defender's cloaking.
 
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GasBandit

Staff member
More formulae, 'cause I had to go hunting through other forums to find them.

The actual combat values of your beams and shields is a rounded 100*(1.5^Level). That means beams at level 10 would do 5767 (since it rounds up) damage in combat, provided you have that much energy to fire them. Shields at the same level would absorb that much damage, provided they have that much energy to power them. Beams get absolute priority over shields for energy in attacking, so it's possible for your beams to use up all your energy. However that shouldn't be a problem if your shields, beams and energy systems are all about the same level, as the calculation for energy per level is 500*(1.5^Level), or 5 times higher. So as long as you stay at full energy between fights, you should have plenty of energy to power both beams and shields. Torpedoes/mines do 10 damage per. Fighters only do 1 damage each but also have a defensive role - beams and torps first have to fire through the cloud of fighters, taking out up to half their current number on each volley, "soaking" some damage that won't penetrate to the shields/armor below.

So here's how combat happens, coded a bit so it's easier to understand instead of just a wall-of-text big list like it is in the faq - It's gonna have to just be ship to ship since I don't know how planetary beams and shields are calculated, apart from energy.

First, everybody's beam, torp, and fighter damage is calculated. So let's say that comes out to both ships having 10,000 beams, torp damage, shields, armor and fighters and enough energy to power everything. Note that mine deflectors do not stop torpedoes in combat, only "mines" in sector defense.

Phase 1: Beams
Attacker beam damage is applied against fighters, destroying up to half of them. 10000 damage vs 10000 fighters destroys 5,000 fighters with 5,000 beam damage left.
Defender beam damage does the same.
If beams are all used up (which here they are not), this is where phase 1 would end.
Remaining Attacker Beam damage is applied to Defender's shields at 1:1. 5000 beams vs 10000 shields exhausts the beams and leaves 5000 shields.
Remaining Defender beam damage is applied to Attacker's shields at 1:1.
If beams are all used up (which here they ARE), this is where phase 1 would end.
(otherwise Attacker and defender would each in turn apply remaining beams to armor, then the phase would end)

Phase 2: Torpedoes (Much the same as above, but remember each torpedo does 10 damage, so you only need 1000 torps to do 10k torp damage)
Attacker Torp Damage applies to 50% of Defender's remaining fighters. 2500 fighters die, 7500 torp damage remains
Defender Torp Damage ditto the other way.
If all torp damage is used up (which it is not) this is where phase 2 ends
Remaining Attacker Torp damage is applied to remaining defender shields (7500 vs 5000). Shields are gone, 2500 torp damage remains.
Remaining Defender Torps do the same.
If torp damage is depleted (which it is not) this is where phase 2 ends.
Remaining attacker torp damage is applied to armor (2500 vs 10000). 7500 defender armor remains.
Remaining defender torps do the same. 7500 attacker armor remains.
End of Torpedo phase.

Phase 3: Fighter attack
Remaining number of fighters are subtracted in attrition at 1:1, with any remaining fighters applying 1 damage each directly to shields/armor. This fight has 2500v2500 fighters remaining, they destroy each other. If anybody had slightly more fighters, they would do shields/armor damage and survive the combat. IE, damage is only done against the side that runs out of fighters at this point, and one side WILL run out of fighters at this point, or rarely, both.

Combat ends. If at any time during the above, somebody's armor fell to 0 or below, that ship is immediately destroyed and combat ends. In our example case, both ships survive, with no torpedoes or fighters remaining, having expended 20,000 energy each, and now being at 75% armor (7500).

If the player who is attacking (usually a defender would not be online in most cases) feels like it, he can spend another turn to attack again, but it's in his interest to go patch himself up and resupply first. Then if he came back at full power before the defender logged in and moved, he would almost assuredly destroy him.

If the attack is on a planet with the owner landed on it, the order of each phase goes Attacker->Planet->Owner both for firing and defending - IE, the attacker's damage in each phase goes against the planet first, then the owner, afterwards the planet damage, then the owner damage, is calculated against the attacker. Planets have no armor, only shields, and a planet with no owner ship on it is defeated when the shields fall. But if the owner is present the planet is not defeated until the owner is also destroyed.

I suspect that somewhere in the PHP it is listed how much beam damage and shields a planet gets, as a variable.
 
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GasBandit

Staff member
Aha, looking around in the code base, I also see that as your ship's average tech level goes further above 15, there is an increasing chance that the Emergency Warp Device will fail to go off.[DOUBLEPOST=1389051773,1389051229][/DOUBLEPOST]Holy shit. Ok, I found it out. Researching the "tech level upgrade for bases" variable led to the revelation that your planetary bases' beams and shields are calculated as your ship's levels + that variable (which in our case is 1). So if you have level 10 beams, your planetary bases have level 11 beams. Same for shields. I'm assuming the same for cloaks when it comes to scanning planets.

However, the normal storage limitations for fighters and torps on your ship by tech level do not apply to planets. Planets commit their entire stock of fighters and torps in a fight regardless of your ship's tech level.

This explains why the "size" of the planet seems to scale with the badassedness of the owner. Because the planetary defenses DO scale with the badassedness of the owner.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
So let's run another trial scenario, with two level 11 ships, attacking/defending a planet. Level 11 tech = 8650 Beams/Shields/Fighters/Torps/Armor and 43249 energy. So the planet will be level 12 for beams and shields (12975), and let's also assume a 8650 garrison of fighters and torps just to pick a number (the defender only did one defense supply run). Also I was wrong about how torpedoes are fired.. you only fire 2% of your max torpedoes in a single combat encounter. That mitigates the fact that torps do 10x damage. HOWEVER, torps also ignore shields and hit directly vs armor.


Phase 1: Beams
1a: vs fighters
Attacker Beams vs Planet fighters (8650v8650), 4325 fighters remain, 4325 beam damage remains.
Attacker Beams vs Defender fighters (4325v8650), 4325 fighters remain, 0 beam damage remains.
Planet Beams vs Attacker Fighters (12975v8650), 4325 fighters remain, 8650 Beam Damage remains.
Defender Beams vs Attacker Fighters (8650v4325) 2162 fighters remain, 6487 Beam damage remains.
1b: vs shields
Attacker beams at 0.
Planet Beams remaining vs Attacker Shields (8650v8650). Both reduced to 0.
Phase ends with defender beams remaining: 6487.
1c: vs armor
Attacker beams and planet beams at 0.
Defender Beams vs Attacker Armor (6487v8650) Attacker Armor reduced to 2163.

Phase 2: torps. Torp damage is 10xTorpsx0.02. Note that since planets don't have armor, attacking a planet with no defending owner present make the torps only damage fighters, and remaining torp damage would go to waste.
2a: vs fighters
Attacker torps vs planet fighters: (1730v4325). 2595 fighters remain. 0 attacker torp damage remains.
Planet Torps vs attacker fighters (1730v2162) 1081 fighters remain, 649 torp damage remains
Defender torps vs Attacker fighters (1730v1081) 540 fighters remain, 1189 torp damage remains.
2b: vs shields
Torp damage ignores shields
2c: Vs Armor
Planetary bases have no armor, so all attacker torp damage goes vs defender armor.
Attacker Torps vs defender armor (0v8650) all defender armor remains.
Planet torps vs attacker armor (649v8650) 8001 attacker armor remains
Defender torps vs attacker armor (1189v8001) 6812 attacker armor remains.

Phase 3: fighters. Fighters go against planet's shields instead of armor since no armor on planets.
3a: vs fighters.
Attacker has 540 fighters, Planet has 2595 fighters. Attacker fighters wiped out, 2055 planet fighters remain.
4325 defender fighters remain.
3b: vs shields
Fighters ordinarily do not roll vs shields, but they do roll vs planetary shields in the armor phase.
3c: vs armor (or planet shields)
Attacker has no fighters.
Planet fighters vs Attacker armor (2595v6812) Attacker now has 4217 armor, planet fighters retreat to planet.
Defender fighters vs attacker armor (4325v4217) Attacker armor reduced below zero. Fighters retreat to defender.

Outcome: Attacker destroyed. The planetary shields never took a dent, nor did the hull of the defender. Moral of the story: Defended Planets are tough.[DOUBLEPOST=1389055836,1389055689][/DOUBLEPOST]
You can only have a maximum of 40 trade routes.

:(
Yeah, but if you keep a spreadsheet open, you can take notes... and edit your trade routes. It's an extra step but not a long one.

Also feck off with that noise Mr. 20 efficiency rating.
 
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GasBandit

Staff member
Another trial run, of a level 11 ship attacking an undefended planetary base of another level 11 ship player, which makes the base level 12.

Phase 1: Beams
1a: vs fighters
Attacker Beams vs Planet fighters (8650v8650), 4325 fighters remain, 4325 beam damage remains.
Planet Beams vs Attacker Fighters (12975v8650), 4325 fighters remain, 8650 Beam Damage remains.
1b: vs shields
Attacker Beams vs Planet shields (4325v12975) 0AB, 8650PS remain
Planet Beams vs Attacker Shields (8650v8650) both nullified.
1c: vs armor
No beams remain

Phase 2: torps
1a: vs fighters
Attacker torps vs planet fighters: (1730v4325). 2595 fighters remain. 0 attacker torp damage remains.
Planet torps vs Attacker fighters: (1730v4325). 2595 fighters remain. 0 planet torp damage remains.
2b: vs shields
Torps don't hit shields
2c: vs armor
No torp damage remains

Phase 3: fighters
1a: vs fighters
Attacker Fighters vs Planet fighters: 2595 vs 2595. Both wiped out.
1b: vs shields
Fighters do not roll vs shields.
1c: vs armor(or planet shields)
No fighters remain.

Combat result: Both sides lose all fighters and 2% of their torps. No hull damage to the attacker, no shield damage to the planet base, but the attacker had a close call, no shields left. He should be glad the planet was lightly defended by torps and fighters.

Take home lesson - be significantly stronger than someone whose planet you wish to take if you suspect it to be even modestly defended. If a planet is heavily stocked with fighters and torps, it can majorly ruin your day.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Well thanks for the tip. Up until now I'd simply been happy to do a series of 2-way trades, moving on when the profit dropped 75%, but I can see I'm going to have to put in the effort to match what you did. Again, thanks for the blueprint. Who knows how much further I'd have fallen behind if not for your benevolence :devil:
 

GasBandit

Staff member
How much salvage do you get from a blown up ship?
Supposedly it depends on the value of the ship. But the one time somebody's attacked me, it was allegedly worth billions and I got nada. So maybe it doesn't work as advertised. Or maybe you only get salvage if you attack and win, not successfully defend.
 
Sweet put it to good use. I was kind of bored and you blocked off one of my favorite trade routes. :( I think it gives you some of your credits back to rebuild your ship as I had 16 or 17billion in the bank and I had about 20 billion to rebuild with, so about a third of my ships worth it let me keep.
 
I was doing a few trades before but I thought I dropped all my credits off before I attacked. Hmmmm I havent redone my ship so we could test it but yet I don't want to waste the 40+ turns to get to one of your planets or spend that many credits upgrading my engines to get to it faster. Hmmm if you could put up a warp from lets say 113 to the beginning 0 or 1 I could buy one upgrade at sol then see if I keep any credits.
 
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