*sighs, turns over "DAYS SINCE LAST MASS SHOOTING IN AMERICA" sign to 0*

[GasBandit]

It seems to me that if you go to the grocery store with the plan/intent of buying broccoli but get flustered and chicken out and go home with ice cream, that doesn't make you a healthy eater.

When all was said and done, he didn't care really who he killed so long as he got to spread some pain. He started out with a flimsy pretext that satisfied his inner need for a "reason" to do it, but it was abandoned fairly easily.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

It wasn't a "flimsy pretext", his misogyny dominated his entire life and every interaction and decision he ever made, per his manifesto

 

[Covar]

Either way, those seeking to ignore the horror the victims felt and are continuing to feel so they can stand on their corpses and use this event as a soapbox to promote their own agenda are being very disrespectful to the victims. Whether you are a gun control advocate, or a feminist advocate, or a mental health advocate, standing forth before the victims are buried, before their families have a chance to say goodbye, and proclaiming that this event only proves your cause is very disheartening.

It's Gabrielle Gifford all over again.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

Don't compare me to the Westboro Church.

And I'd love to wait until the appropriate time, but by then there will have been another mass shooting and then another into perpetuity.

 

[GasBandit]

It wasn't a "flimsy pretext", his misogyny dominated his entire life and every interaction and decision he ever made, per his manifesto

And yet when the rubber met the road, or more insensitively, when the hammer met the primer, he obviously wasn't too concerned about who was actually on the end of the barrel. If his violence was actually governed by a specific hatred, he would have made sure to kill these women who he purports have all wronged him so.

I rather suspect that he was full of hate, and he was a misogynist, but that those two things weren't as interconnected as some would think. My guess is, in life he found misogyny a way to express his hatred that garnered him acceptance and approval from certain (bad) individuals and groups; and in his final act, that hatred no longer needed that path to express itself and could lash out indiscriminately.

I don't deny his misogyny. I just think it was the venue, rather than the source, of his hatred.

 

[Necronic]

One could make the claim that misogyny turned him into the monster he became. "I'm a normal guy, but chanced upon this delightful website that has convinced me of the need to cleanse the earth of evil women."

One could also make the claim that he was already sick and latched onto a group he could personally relate to. "I hate the world and want it to die. Oh look, here's a group I can relate with to stoke my anger."

I think the latter is more likely the case, but it's still pretty damning.

Either way, those seeking to ignore the horror the victims felt and are continuing to feel so they can stand on their corpses and use this event as a soapbox to promote their own agenda are being very disrespectful to the victims. Whether you are a gun control advocate, or a feminist advocate, or a mental health advocate, standing forth before the victims are buried, before their families have a chance to say goodbye, and proclaiming that this event only proves your cause is very disheartening.

Give it a week or two. Share your empathy or sympathy, and after people have had time to grieve use it as an example when appropriate.

Of course, that doesn't stop the westboro baptist church, so I know it's not going to stop some people who have similar anti-social inclinations regarding our society's respect for the dead.

I used to agree with this. Not so much anymore. I agree that it is noble to wait, but it's also unreasonable and foolish because if you wait then it will allow the other positions to fill the void and their argument will be the one that dominates the landscape. Noble, but stupid, the Ned Stark play, which ultimately does more to harm your cause than help it. Moreover, I sort of find this attitude to be a backhanded method to shut down important conversations about root causes in deadly incidents. I've seen it used by corporations or their political backers as a way to whitewash major industrial accidents, and I see it used defensively in relation to the gun control arguments that come up after these shootings. In both cases it really bothers me. It's like boxing jello, and it's dishonest.

Sure. take the argument with a grain of salt and understand there are emotions at play, and respect the dead. But the best respect you can show to the dead is really trying to figure out why they died and preventing it from happening again. If nothing else let the tragedy be the foundation of an important life lesson we can learn. I agree that some decency and respect should exist in the argument, and people shouldn't wear the corpses on their sleeves, but doing nothing? That's unacceptable.

Westboro is a wholly other group and not related to this in the slightest. Their argument is so far removed from logic that they could bust out their response whenever someone burnt the thanksgiving turkey.

 

[PatrThom]

I'll take "Ways you know you nailed it" for $1000, Alex.

View attachment 14922

Admit it. You knew it was the daily double.

--Patrick

 

[GasBandit]

Admit it. You knew it was the daily double.

--Patrick

Pew de dyew de dyew de pew pew

 

[Krisken]

Huh. I thought the tragedy had sparked the conversation and now has moved beyond it. People aren't saying "Something needs to be done because of this tragedy" but "Something needs to be done because almost all women have experienced misogynist behavior."

I just don't see much being said about the shooting so much anymore, but then again I spend most of my time online and don't really get any television information.

 

[Necronic]

What you're basically saying is that your argument isn't self supporting, and can only thrive in an environment of controversy.

That's ridiculous. If your argument has merit and value in society, then it should have value and merit even when people aren't being killed in ways that support your argument.

The argument has merit and value at all times, but it has a better chance of being heard when the consequences of failure are seen. The coal industry has always been a miserable example of poor regulation, yet no one cared because none of us work in or around mines. They are something that happens "over there or whatever". But when Blankenship and his cronies effectively murdered those 20 miners people really understood the consequences of our indiference. People don't normally appreciate the consequences because "out of sight, out of mind". When these issues come into sight, that's when we can change them. In fairness though those situations are different from this one. With industrial accidents like that it's fairly easy to see the errors, and our pre-existing knowledge of regulatory weaknesses makes it easy to jump in and throw down a conclusion.

Trying to be the fastest climber to the top of the corpses in order to bring national attention to your axe so you can grind it is actually far worse than what I was talking about, which is simply telling people that these people died because your problem wasn't fixed, and implying that fixing your problem would eliminate these mass murders.

At any rate, it discredits your cause in my eyes, but I suppose for people who have little support "by any means necessary" becomes a mantra.

And what exactly is my cause? I came into this thread trying to understand the root causes at play, and probed into a number of them. You seem to have an image in your head of what I am and what I am advocating and it in no way matches what is represented in this thread. My cause is understanding why. Not fitting the facts to a pre-existing conclusion. I'm not Olberman or O'reilly. Those people are scum.

I will admit there are some pre-existing conclusions that are hard not to raise here. Why do severely mentally ill people that are well documented keep getting access to guns? Is it ok to bring up Sandy Hook and Aurora now? Has enough time passed? Or has enough interest waned in the subject that it's safe to allow it as evidence?

But really that's only a small part of a much larger question, and it's really what we've been looking at here. There are people shouldering up to start blaming this on Aspergers (due to Lanza), and that needs to be shut down. Should I wait and allow that stigma to be put out unanswered? There are people saying that it was his MRA background that caused this. As much as I dislike MRA I find the assertion absurd. Should I allow that group to be slandered unmercifully and unfairly?

In your world we let the bastards control the signal. In my world we fight them, and do our best to avoid becoming the bastards ourselves. This is a hard thing, something I think Charlie fell ill of long ago, but it's better than giving up the fight.

I hope you don't ever have to be in the position of a horrific crime only to find that groups are fighting to claim rights to your victimization.

If someone kills a member of my family I will want to know why, even if there is no reason.

ed: I just remembered, a family friend of mine was killed in the Larry Gene Ashbrook church shooting. As someone semi-close to the situation can I talk about mental illness and gun control? Or would it be uncouth.

....man I forgot about that. RIP Justin Stengal Ray. I enjoyed shooting arrows with you at Boyscout camp.

That's not what people are doing. They're taking what scraps of information they can find about this, twisting them into a promotional message for their cause, and publishing their cause to attract attention. They aren't fixing the problem - they don't even know what the root problem really is. At best they're guessing.

And that's wrong. I explicitly said you investigate with a grain of salt. You understand the emotionality. But you never close your eyes. You may find a root cause investigation to be immoral, I find a willful ignorance of evil to be far worse.

Edit: after re-reading your original comment we may be on the same page. I'm just not sure what you define as. "Exploit"

 

[LittleSin]

I can't find the article now but they were speaking with his past therapist(s) (perhaps plural?). He was never diagnosed with any kind of mental disorder other than being extremely egocentric even after years of therapy.

So...crazy but not medically crazy?

 

[Necronic]

[DOUBLEPOST=1401312785,1401312411][/DOUBLEPOST]

I can't find the article now but they were speaking with his past therapist(s) (perhaps plural?). He was never diagnosed with any kind of mental disorder other than being extremely egocentric even after years of therapy.

So...crazy but not medically crazy?

Well, apparently he was off enough that his parents warned the police about him.

 

[LittleSin]

[DOUBLEPOST=1401312785,1401312411][/DOUBLEPOST]

Well, apparently he was off enough that his parents warned the police about him.

I thought that was after they caught wind of his videos and thought he might harm himself?

 

[Necronic]

Either way, it's a mental health issue right? There should be methods in place to sizes all firearms from people like this.

The republican solution, however, is simply to make it far easier to forcibly commit people. There is a bill in place to lower the standards for commitment from "is a danger to others" to "needs help". Lets ignore the MASSIVE potential for abuse in that vague language, and point out that this kid already fit the requirement of danger to others when his parents reported him. Or we could point out that seizing his guns would reduce how much of a danger he was to others.

Fuck that. No one is going to abridge the freedom of my gun ownership. This is America for christs sake, we maintain our freedoms through forced imprisonment of people who "need help".


http://blogs.rollcall.com/218/elliot-rodger-mental-health-bill/

 

[Hailey Knight]

There's a difference between exploitation and discussion; and there's certainly a middle ground between exploitation and complacent delay.

 

[Necronic]

I'm reading up on the proposed bill, and finding some funny things:

What the investigation found: Between twenty and fifty percent of the incarnated system inmates have a mental illness. Mental health courts have provided a cost-effective and responsible alternative to incarcerating the mentally ill.

What the investigation found: There is a severe lack of inpatient and outpatient treatment options. Seventy years ago, the country had nearly 600,000 inpatient psychiatric beds for a 150 million people. Today, there are fewer than 40,000 beds for 317 million people.

You mean to tell me that there was a consequence to closing down all the federal mental hospitals? I am really surprised.

----------

I'm still trying to find the stuff about lowering standards for committing a patient. Aside from that thing I think there are some really good things in this legislation. Cutting federal funding from handling mental illnesses was one of the dumbest moves the republican party ever made as the long result of it ended up increasing costs due to the difficulties of recidivism and homelessness in the mentally ill.

 

[PatrThom]

I just don't see much being said about the shooting so much anymore, but then again I spend most of my time online and don't really get any television information.

I know exactly how you feel.

--Patrick

 

[GasBandit]

This is not a shallow hole, quickly dug with a quick and easy fix. I'm not even sure how "crazy" he is. Yes, his actions are crazy to others, but now that I've actually started reading about him, I wonder if the problem isn't a combination of personality, societal and cultural programming - incompatible with actual civilized society. Not broken, just... made wrong. Like being told the first 20 years of your life "be a wrench, be a wrench, be a wrench" and then try to fit into/be judged by a world comprised entirely of hammers. I don't condone his actions, certainly, but like others I recognize parts of his diatribes in the frustrations I had when I was 19, or in words expressed to me by male "nerd" friends. Our upbringing is one of mixed messages and competing influences. We're told to simultaneously be worshipful and yet to objectify women. We're told to be both "nice" or considerate and yet alpha and aggressive. Masculinity is equal parts strength and insensitivity - and is simultaneously lionized and demonized. Our broken homes remove male role models from our upbringing and our babysitters on the big and small screens teach us that only pretty girls are worth chasing and you're supposed to never stop chasing until you get that which you are entitled to - a pretty girlfriend, as only the attractive (of either gender) have worth. We're told that women don't like how cloddish men treat them, overcompensate by putting them on a pedestal and then watch them flock to the clods anyway - sometimes even faster, because really who wants to be put on a pedestal? Then add in a huge dollop of the omnipresent exploitative pornography (not that all pornography is exploitative, but someone's always pushing the envelope) to really sear in the idea that these creatures you used to enshrine are really so very less than perfect and what does that make you, you who can't even land a pretty girl, not even one who gets jizzed on by 7 guys she met that day?

Call it societal misogyny if you like. And as I said, I'm not convinced that the shooter's misogyny wasn't a symptom rather than a motivation.

This is one of those times I really miss Pauline. I really want to hear what she would have to say on the subject. She always had ways of making me see things I hadn't even considered. And thinking about any deep issue like this without being able to talk to her about it feels like trying to think without half my brain.

 

[Hailey Knight]

This is not a shallow hole, quickly dug with a quick and easy fix. I'm not even sure how "crazy" he is. Yes, his actions are crazy to others, but now that I've actually started reading about him, I wonder if the problem isn't a combination of personality, societal and cultural programming - incompatible with actual civilized society. Not broken, just... made wrong. Like being told the first 20 years of your life "be a wrench, be a wrench, be a wrench" and then try to fit into/be judged by a world comprised entirely of hammers. I don't condone his actions, certainly, but like others I recognize parts of his diatribes in the frustrations I had when I was 19, or in words expressed to me by male "nerd" friends. Our upbringing is one of mixed messages and competing influences. We're told to simultaneously be worshipful and yet to objectify women. We're told to be both "nice" or considerate and yet alpha and aggressive. Masculinity is equal parts strength and insensitivity - and is simultaneously lionized and demonized. Our broken homes remove male role models from our upbringing and our babysitters on the big and small screens teach us that only pretty girls are worth chasing and you're supposed to never stop chasing until you get that which you are entitled to - a pretty girlfriend, as only the attractive (of either gender) have worth. We're told that women don't like how cloddish men treat them, overcompensate by putting them on a pedestal and then watch them flock to the clods anyway - sometimes even faster, because really who wants to be put on a pedestal? Then add in a huge dollop of the omnipresent exploitative pornography (not that all pornography is exploitative, but someone's always pushing the envelope) to really sear in the idea that these creatures you used to enshrine are really so very less than perfect and what does that make you, you who can't even land a pretty girl, not even one who gets jizzed on by 7 guys she met that day?

Call it societal misogyny if you like. And as I said, I'm not convinced that the shooter's misogyny wasn't a symptom rather than a motivation.

This is one of those times I really miss Pauline. I really want to hear what she would have to say on the subject. She always had ways of making me see things I hadn't even considered. And thinking about any deep issue like this without being able to talk to her about it feels like trying to think without half my brain.

I don't know which is scarier, that narrative or how I've seen it play out in boys and men I've known.

 

[PatrThom]

I don't know which is scarier, that narrative or how I've seen it play out in boys and men I've known.

I'm sure most of the guys here on this forum have been given a similar...opportunity at one time or another. It has a certain allure, that's for certain.

--Patrick

 

[Hailey Knight]

I'm sure most of the guys here on this forum have been given a similar...opportunity at one time or another. It has a certain allure, that's for certain.

--Patrick

Are you referring to the porn?

 

[Necronic]

Parts of what the Unabomber said made sense. Hell, parts of what Bim Laden said made sense. Manifestos always have some uncomfortable truths in them. But they also require the no sequitur:

1) here's a problem
2) ????
3) I should kill a bunch of people.

The small amount of truth in their views in no way justifies their conclusions. Those question marks, that's where the madness lies.

 

[GasBandit]

Parts of what the Unabomber said made sense. Hell, parts of what Bim Laden said made sense. Manifestos always have some uncomfortable truths in them. But they also require the no sequitur:

1) here's a problem
2) ????
3) I should kill a bunch of people.

The small amount of truth in their views in no way justifies their conclusions. Those question marks, that's where the madness lies.

Something to that. You've seen Falling Down, with Michael Douglas, right? I identified with his greivances so very much, and yet never had the slightest inclination to end up where he was headed.

 

[PatrThom]

Are you referring to the porn?

My good man, I am referring to all of it. The porn, the madness, the passion, the thrills, chills, swills, and spills. It is quite the temptation to sample that cocktail, and it can be quite addictive once tasted.

--Patrick

 

[Necronic]

I love that movie, so sad.

 

[Hailey Knight]

My good man, I am referring to all of it. The porn, the madness, the passion, the thrills, chills, swills, and spills. It is quite the temptation to sample that cocktail, and it can be quite addictive once tasted.

--Patrick

I don't agree, but I won't hit the disagree button. I don't see any of what Gas posted as appealing.

But you might be making a reference that I don't get.

 

[PatrThom]

But you might be making a reference that I don't get.

Not a pop culture one, at any rate. All I am saying is that it is easy to "give in" to the baser human instincts. Kill your rivals. Take what you want. Fuck whomever you please. Make no excuses, just live an amoral, carefree existence. The cruder parts of your brain will reward you for this, cheer you on, even. This strategy might work for an organism whose life is spent in solitude, away from others of its kind. But in a societal structure, this behavior is seen as undesirable, and so individuals with these tendencies will be shunned, cast out, incarcerated, or even killed to minimize the disruption of that society.

--Patrick

 

[Hailey Knight]

Not a pop culture one, at any rate. All I am saying is that it is easy to "give in" to the baser human instincts. Kill your rivals. Take what you want. Fuck whomever you please. Make no excuses, just live an amoral, carefree existence. The cruder parts of your brain will reward you for this, cheer you on, even. This strategy might work for an organism whose life is spent in solitude, away from others of its kind. But in a societal structure, this behavior is seen as undesirable, and so individuals with these tendencies will be shunned, cast out, incarcerated, or even killed to minimize the disruption of that society.

--Patrick

I guess you and I are built differently; I have a hard time with that stuff.

I typed more, but deleted it because I don't want to sound like I'm on a high horse. Short version: I don't like hurting things, I don't like killing things, and I've had to force myself to do either because others expected/demanded it of me, and I hated it.

 

[GasBandit]

I guess you and I are built differently; I have a hard time with that stuff.

I typed more, but deleted it because I don't want to sound like I'm on a high horse. Short version: I don't like hurting things, I don't like killing things, and I've had to force myself to do either because others expected/demanded it of me, and I hated it.

I've heard the siren's call that Patr's talking about, a long time ago. The one that, sitting in geometry, longed for a chainsaw to use on the people around me. The one that whispers, wouldn't it just be simpler if everyone and everything fell into 1 of 3 categories - kill, eat, or sex? The one that picks out people for whom disappearing would be the biggest boon they could bestow on everyone around them. It gets quieter when you find a higher purpose than yourself - a cause, a person, or an ideal you're willing to live and strive for.

 

[Krisken]

I'm just saying, we might have a problem.

 

[Hailey Knight]

I've heard the siren's call that Patr's talking about, a long time ago. The one that, sitting in geometry, longed for a chainsaw to use on the people around me. The one that whispers, wouldn't it just be simpler if everyone and everything fell into 1 of 3 categories - kill, eat, or sex? The one that picks out people for whom disappearing would be the biggest boon they could bestow on everyone around them. It gets quieter when you find a higher purpose than yourself - a cause, a person, or an ideal you're willing to live and strive for.

Alright, I think I know what you're talking about from when I was a teenager, but for me it was always turned inward, about pointing that aggression at myself. No idea why.

 

[PatrThom]

I guess you and I are built differently [...] I don't like hurting things, I don't like killing things, and I've had to force myself to do either because others expected/demanded it of me, and I hated it.

Then you and I are not built so differently after all. Being tempted is one thing. Caving is another. The reason I don't surrender to the impulses is because I don't happen to enjoy killing things. Heck, I felt bad that a spider on my hood got blown off before I reached my exit and so couldn't be rescued (he held on for 15+ miles!). I drove cross-State yesterday and along the way saw two turtles that were sloooowly headed to (presumably) attempt to cross the roadway, but instead probably met with certain doom. I'm no Buddhist, but I see no reason for senseless killing.

--Patrick

 

[Hailey Knight]

Then you and I are not built so differently after all. Being tempted is one thing. Caving is another. The reason I don't surrender to the impulses is because I don't happen to enjoy killing things. Heck, I felt bad that a spider on my hood got blown off before I reached my exit and so couldn't be rescued (he held on for 15+ miles!). I drove cross-State yesterday and along the way saw two turtles that were sloooowly headed to (presumably) attempt to cross the roadway, but instead probably met with certain doom. I'm no Buddhist, but I see no reason for senseless killing.

--Patrick

You lost me again. It's not a "I have this feeling, but I don't do it because I don't like it"--the impulse is absent. When I see a spider in the house, there's no consideration to kill it which must be suppressed. No impulse which would require a desire. And that's a basic survival instinct we've inherited from our ancestors, fear or apprehension of spiders, which I lack. Same with getting in a fight. The reason I've never been in one is because when I was hit, I had to make myself want to hit back, and I couldn't bring myself to it. I knew what was expected of me, I knew that if I just fought back I wouldn't have to deal with it any more, and yet I had no impulse, no desire to act on impulse. Violence I've done has been at the behest of others, except toward myself.

Now I'm thinking something's been broken with me and I'm just becoming aware of it tonight.

 

[PatrThom]

Now I'm thinking something's been broken with me and I'm just becoming aware of it tonight.

For all you know you could be the end result of being bred and programmed in order to maximize your ability to get along with others. Intrigued am I.

--Patrick

 

[Hailey Knight]

For all you know you could be the end result of being bred and programmed in order to maximize your ability to get along with others. Intrigued am I.

--Patrick

If that's the case, I don't think it's exactly a good thing. I can't count the number of times I've had an impulse to hurt myself over the years, and those were the impulses I didn't act on due to lack of desire.