[News] The USA Police State will never satisfy its lust for beating, gassing, and imprisoning minorities

Garner did not die with an arm around his neck. He died in the Ambulance of a heart attack that was brought about by the choke hold and positional asphyxia, complicated by his size, weight, apnea, and I think he had another breathing problem.

He was not choked to death.

The head lock is against policy, not against the law.
 
Garner did not die with an arm around his neck. He died in the Ambulance of a heart attack that was brought about by the choke hold and positional asphyxia, complicated by his size, weight, apnea, and I think he had another breathing problem.

He was not choked to death.

The head lock is against policy, not against the law.
ahhhh there's the fascist bold enough to defend the state-sponsored murderers

this is from July:
The seven-minute clip posted Saturday on YouTube shows an apparently lifeless Eric Garner, whose head droops to the side as at least eight cops stand nearby.
“C’mon, guy,” one cop says to Garner, the only thing on the video that suggests any of the officers was trying to help the Staten Island man. “Breathe in, breathe out.”
But Garner, on his side with his eyes closed, doesn’t move at all — even when the officer slaps him on the shoulder. The side of his head remains flat against the concrete, and his eyes never open.
At one point, another officer is seen taking a cell phone and a pack of cigarettes from the 43-year-old Garner’s pants.
Even after the arrival of an EMT four minutes into the video, no medical aid is provided to Garner. He’s instead just loaded onto a stretcher and wheeled off.
Cops say he was pronounced dead a short time later after arriving at a Staten Island hospital.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...-garner-stripped-shield-gun-article-1.1873033
 
Here comes some thoughts from a guy who admittedly is vastly ignorant about many things, this probably included, and has no hard experience with the subject.

I feel bad for police officers. I know that it's a hard, and often thankless job, and I can't imagine the kind of stress that comes from working in a profession where you know people might try to kill you. But I also believe that stress is what causes a lot of the problems we see. Criminals may make up a very small part of a population, but if it's your job to deal with those criminals, you are going to have a much higher percentage of interaction with them than a regular person. It's also human nature to categorize and stereotype people, so if you're dealing with criminals all day long, and you are in a stressful situation where you know those criminals might try to hurt you, it's a natural reaction to start expecting people to be criminals.

We see the same effect happen in soldiers during wartime. When you're fighting against enemy soldiers, terrorist groups, militant groups, whatever, the stress of having to be on alert cause you to suspect everyone that isn't you and your soldiers of being enemy combatants. It creates a very distinct 'us vs them' mentality, and as a coping mechanism, they also start to dehumanize their opponents.

Similarly, being in that stressful environment is going to cause you to want to defend your group from the outside. Again, it's human nature, our tribe is good and outside tribes are 'other.' Police officers are often blamed for things that aren't really their fault. A lawful raid on a drug production house is going to have at least some people crying foul, be it those making the drugs that are now in trouble, or people that just plain don't like cops. This increases that us vs them mentality, and further encourages dehumanization. 'We're doing a stressful, thankless job, one that is important, and the outside is trying to tear us down. We have to protect our own.' That's where the blue shield/wall develops.

It also effects both sides. You see entire communities that do not trust cops. And the very same human nature that can lead cops to dehumanizing them plays a part here too, creating more 'us vs them', which in turn feeds upon itself. It's caustic and volatile, and it wares upon people on both sides.

However, because it's the police that are in authority, because they are the ones we look to for enforcement of our laws, they are the ones that the public gets angry at. They get angry because when these sorts of mentalities lead to death, there is an apparent lack of justice. When a rookie cop shoots a man in a stairwell (and maybe he felt, in the moment, that it was justified, because people are likely criminals, and criminals are scary, they have guns and shoot people), there's no justice administered towards the cop. If a civilian gets scared by a cop in a stairwell and shoots him (cops are scary, they have guns and shoot people) he's immediately labeled a cop killer (and rightfully so, you shouldn't shoot people for being in a stairwell, obviously) and if he's lucky enough to live to see trial, will likely get the book thrown at him.

When the system isn't applied to both sides, you get even more tension. People should look for police for protection, and service, since they are a vital part of government. But when there's no justice for wrongs committed by those police, when no one is policing the police, then they start to look like tyrants. Us vs Them.

I feel bad for police officers. I can't imagine what I would do if placed in their same position. I hope I could rise above the darker parts of human nature, and try to be the lawful enforcer that we hope cops to be, but I don't know how that system can ware on you. @Charlie Don't Surf calls police brainwashed tools of an evil system, and I don't agree with that, because that is harsh language that is purposefully antagonistic, and helps nothing. But there is a grain of truth to it, it is a system that can very easily breed corruption, can encourage dehumanizing the very people you're sworn to serve just to survive, and can lead to situations where even good people might find themselves doing the wrong thing. I know not all police officers (#notallcops, blah blah blah) fall into that trap, but I can see a self-perpetuating system that very well could cause good cops to do so.

And because it's inherent in the system, just from the fact that they deal with the criminal element, I have no idea how to fix it. I don't know if it can be fixed, and I hope that people much smarter than I can come up with a solution. A good first step would be further accountability for officers that do cross the line, but then we see how our system for doing that may not be working as intended, and I've no idea how to fix that either.

Just as an aside, I hope these discussions don't weigh too heavily upon @Officer_Charon. I'm not claiming that any of this that I've typed plays a part in how he acts or does his job, and I do fully believe he does his best. OC: I love ya, I really do. I think you're a cool guy, don't ever feel like any of this discussion is aimed at you personally.
 
You know who I feel bad for? The people that get killed by police officers, and their families that then get to watch our farcical legal system not even have the goddamn decency to put on a sham trial.
 
@Ravenpoe: Thanks for the well-articulated defence.

Maybe Charlie's right. Maybe I am brainwashed. I grew up wanting to be two things (well, three, but Paleontologist went out the window fairly quickly. Maybe I need to look into that again...) - a Marine, and a cop. I grew up my entire life believing in the righteousness of the police, how they were the ones who you could rely on...

When I had the shotgun pointed at me by the kid who had been bullying my brother, I called the cops.
I asked questions at the few DARE meetings that came to my schools, heard the horror stories about dealing with a guy on PCP who tried to kick open a church with two broken legs.
I played the Police Quest games thoroughly, learning procedure and thoroughness.
My parents (One a former Marine, the other a former paramedic) taught me that this was an honorable position, that placing myself on the thin line between order and chaos was something worthwhile.

So, yeah, maybe I'm a little brainwashed.

The job has since lost it's luster, as all dreams do. And while a bit of doubt now and then is healthy, I read stuff like this and wonder why I do it at all.

Congratulations, Charlie. Maybe one less piggie for you to worry about soon.
 
@Ravenpoe: Thanks for the well-articulated defence.

Maybe Charlie's right. Maybe I am brainwashed. I grew up wanting to be two things (well, three, but Paleontologist went out the window fairly quickly. Maybe I need to look into that again...) - a Marine, and a cop. I grew up my entire life believing in the righteousness of the police, how they were the ones who you could rely on...

When I had the shotgun pointed at me by the kid who had been bullying my brother, I called the cops.
I asked questions at the few DARE meetings that came to my schools, heard the horror stories about dealing with a guy on PCP who tried to kick open a church with two broken legs.
I played the Police Quest games thoroughly, learning procedure and thoroughness.
My parents (One a former Marine, the other a former paramedic) taught me that this was an honorable position, that placing myself on the thin line between order and chaos was something worthwhile.

So, yeah, maybe I'm a little brainwashed.

The job has since lost it's luster, as all dreams do. And while a bit of doubt now and then is healthy, I read stuff like this and wonder why I do it at all.

Congratulations, Charlie. Maybe one less piggie for you to worry about soon.
I hope you don't feel like I was disparaging all police. Police are needed, and I know several good and honorable police officers. And I like you, too. I just see a problem inherent in the system, a system that is needed, and I don't know how to fix it. And that's frustrating.

And I know it's not all police. "The Police" as a concept is a huge entity made of many, many different parts. Some of those parts are going to be better or worse than others. But that problem that I see (which, admittedly, may not be real, I'm no expert) is a poison that could threaten to begin creeping into any one of those parts. And without due diligence to stop it, you get more and more corruption.
 
I hope you don't feel like I was disparaging all police. Police are needed, and I know several good and honorable police officers. And I like you, too. I just see a problem inherent in the system, a system that is needed, and I don't know how to fix it. And that's frustrating.

And I know it's not all police. "The Police" as a concept is a huge entity made of many, many different parts. Some of those parts are going to be better or worse than others. But that problem that I see (which, admittedly, may not be real, I'm no expert) is a poison that could threaten to begin creeping into any one of those parts. And without due diligence to stop it, you get more and more corruption.
And it's pretty much this. But you have to realize when you say "Not all police" it sounds a lot like "Not all men...". Just be careful not to be so much a part of one group you can't empathize with the other.
 
Garner did not die with an arm around his neck. He died in the Ambulance of a heart attack that was brought about by the choke hold and positional asphyxia, complicated by his size, weight, apnea, and I think he had another breathing problem.

He was not choked to death.

The head lock is against policy, not against the law.
The coroner's office reports that the cause of death was "neck compressions and the compression of his chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police." - that is from medical examiner spokeswoman Julie Bolcer.

What word do you use for when your neck is compressed until you're unable to breathe?
 

GasBandit

Staff member
What word do you use for when your neck is compressed until you're unable to breathe?
"No, no, Jimmy, choking is something you do when you eat too fast. As I'm crushing Mister Moorin's windpipe with my watch chain, what I'm doing is actually referred to as strangling." - Handsome Jack
 
The coroner's office reports that the cause of death was "neck compressions and the compression of his chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police." - that is from medical examiner spokeswoman Julie Bolcer.

What word do you use for when your neck is compressed until you're unable to breathe?
The choke lasted a few seconds, he was breathing and talking for a long time afterwards. The choke was the first step in a series of events that lead to his death. It all lead to his death. But YOU keep saying they choked him until he can't breathe any longer, that they murdered him on the streets, which is incredibly wrong.
 
The choke lasted a few seconds, he was breathing and talking for a long time afterwards. The choke was the first step in a series of events that lead to his death. It all lead to his death. But YOU keep saying they choked him until he can't breathe any longer, that they murdered him on the streets, which is incredibly wrong.
There's what you're saying, and then there's what the medical examiner is saying.

- yeah, he looks fine. :rolleyes:

Notice the EMTs, having been told he's in respiratory distress, after checking his pulse, do not put on an oxygen mask or, well, do ANYTHING.

Because he was already dead.
 
I hope you find what makes you happy, O_C, honestly. I don't have a perfect solution in all this, but I don't see anything wrong with the police officers with a conscience resigning their posts en masse out of disgust with how reality doesn't resemble Adam-12 or the firearm/phallocentric Police Squad shoot 'em up video games.

This is less likely on a large scale since Capitalism makes everyone believe they are worthless without a job, and the absence of a living wage, a billion other factors etc etc, especially in this economy. And if that just leaves the "bad cops" on the force, it'll be that much easier to destroy the institution completely in its current state. I left my finance job earlier this year out of disgust at basically moving money between different rich folks' pockets and basically being nothing but oil squirted on a wheel in the machine of capitalism. Happiness is worth more than any salary, etc etc.
 
I left my finance job earlier this year out of disgust at basically moving money between different rich folks' pockets and basically being nothing but oil squirted on a wheel in the machine of capitalism.
Hey, it's why I left finance.

I see a lot of what looks like confusion between "criminal" and "civil" in this thread. The tests are different, and for good reason.

--Patrick
 
Can someone make sense of Charlie's post? Because all I'm getting from it right now is that he didn't proofread.
 
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Well, at least the Blue Mafia doesn't discriminate against women when it comes to using excessive force against black people.

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2025176977_shepherdpunch1xml.html

Federal prosecutors say they will review an incident in which a Seattle police officer punched and seriously injured a handcuffed, intoxicated woman, after King County prosecutors said Friday they won’t charge the officer.
Emily Langlie, spokeswoman for acting U.S. Attorney Annette L. Hayes, said her office will look at the June 22 incident involving Officer Adley Shepherd for a possible federal criminal civil-rights violation.
The decision comes after King County Prosecutor Dan Satterberg announced that his office would not seek a state felony charge against Shepherd, 38, a nine-year department veteran, for punching Miyekko Durden-Bosley in the back of his police cruiser.
Durden-Bosley, 23, was intoxicated and was verbally abusive after her arrest outside the home of a Seattle man whose mother had called the police. Durden-Bosley swore at Shepherd and kicked at him while being shoved into the back of a police cruiser, according to the investigation.
Shepherd reacted by punching her once in the face, fracturing the orbit of her right eye. Shepherd suffered no visible injuries, according to court documents.
Shepherd has been on paid administrative leave since the incident.
Satterberg’s decision reflects a deep difference of opinion between his office and City Attorney Pete Holmes, whose criminal chief reviewed the case earlier and thought it “undoubtedly met the felony standard,” according to a news release issued by Holmes on Friday.
Holmes sent the case to Satterberg because the city attorney has no jurisdiction to prosecute felony crimes.
It now appears Shepherd will not be charged criminally unless the U.S. Attorney’s Office determines that his actions violate federal civil-rights criminal statutes. Such prosecutions are very rare and hard to prove.
A Seattle Times review of such cases showed there has been only one federal criminal civil-rights case filed against a law-enforcement officer in recent history in the Western District of Washington — a 2008 charge against a former King County deputy for kicking and beating a handcuffed woman.
A jury acquitted the deputy at trial.
Shepherd faces a review by the SPD’s Office of Professional Accountability to determine whether his actions fell within department policy. He could be disciplined or fired, but would not face jail time or other criminal sanctions.
His attorney, Eric Makus, said his client is anxious to return to work. “He is pleased that he has been exonerated from any wrongdoing,” Makus said.
The department said Shepherd will remain on administrative leave pending the internal investigation.
The incident was caught on in-car video, and its almost six-month investigation has been a hot potato for prosecutors and law-enforcement officials alike. The SPD turned its investigation over to the Washington State Patrol (WSP), which recruited the director of training at the state police academy, Robert Bragg Jr., to review the video and its investigation.
He concluded that Shepherd’s actions were inappropriate, inconsistent with best practices and inflicted unnecessary injuries to the woman.
Shepherd refused to give a statement to WSP investigators. Makus said that’s because the investigators would not let him watch the dash-camera video of the incident beforehand.
Criminal prosecutors in Satterberg’s office reviewed the video, reports and the investigation by a WSP detective sergeant and came to another conclusion.
King County prosecutors said they found that Shepherd had “acted professionally and with restraint up to the point where he was kicked in the head by the suspect as she was being placed in the patrol car.”
“Officer Shepherd reacted instantaneously to the kick by the suspect, who was wearing boots, with one punch to the suspect’s head which caused a fracture of an orbital socket.”
Prosecutors concluded that, in Shepherd’s case, they could not overcome the legal burden that requires them to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the force used by the officer was not necessary.
“While officer Shepherd may have had other options or alternatives, we have concluded that we would be unable to prove that officer Shepherd’s use of force was criminal” prosecutors said.
The decision, which has been pending since October, comes as public outcry grows over incidents in Missouri and New York where police officers have not been prosecuted despite using deadly force against unarmed individuals.
In Seattle, protesters have gathered nightly downtown this week to express their outrage over what they consider a lack of police accountability.
The video — which has not been publicly released — does not clearly show whether the kick struck Shepherd, although he can be heard saying, “She kicked me,” according to the documents.
The Washington State Patrol found that it was not clear whether Durden-Bosley’s kick connected with the officer, even after the video was enhanced by the FBI and a private video company.
Shepherd and Durden-Bosley were both treated at Harborview Medical Center, where State Patrol investigators later served a search warrant for medical records.
After the kick, Shepherd is heard on the video saying, “My jaw is jacked,” and complained of soreness in his jaw and a shooting pain in his face. However, the records obtained from Harborview showed “no obvious injury.”
In approving the search warrant, King County Superior Court Judge Sean O’Donnell found, based on an affidavit by a State Patrol investigator, that there was probable cause to believe Shepherd committed the crime of felony second-degree assault.
Durden-Bosley was taken to jail after her injuries were treated, and she spent four days in jail for investigation of assaulting a police officer before the case was dismissed.

- the punch that fractures her eye socket is at about 2:50
 
Then the pièce de résistance:



Essentially, "While I don't agree with the words charlie uses, he's basically right - police are brainwashed. It's inherent to the system, so it probably can't even be fixed."

And then - And then - this wonderful nugget:



"I think Officer_charon is doing his best, and I hope that this discussion about how his chosen profession is, by it's very nature, corrupting, isn't bothering him. I love him, and I'm only talking about his profession, not him."
Those are the words, yes.
 
It's like you can swap words out for other words and it changes the meaning of the statement.

Okay, Mr. Wizard, maybe you can see how words of those people work, but can you see why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch translate this:

I hope you find what makes you happy, O_C, honestly. I don't have a perfect solution in all this, but I don't see anything wrong with the police officers with a conscience resigning their posts en masse out of disgust with how reality doesn't resemble Adam-12 or the firearm/phallocentric Police Squad shoot 'em up video games.

This is less likely on a large scale since Capitalism makes everyone believe they are worthless without a job, and the absence of a living wage, a billion other factors etc etc, especially in this economy. And if that just leaves the "bad cops" on the force, it'll be that much easier to destroy the institution completely in its current state. I left my finance job earlier this year out of disgust at basically moving money between different rich folks' pockets and basically being nothing but oil squirted on a wheel in the machine of capitalism. Happiness is worth more than any salary, etc etc.
 
You know what I love about this? The pretense.

At least Charlie is up front about it. He may soften his words, but he's made it pretty clear that he thinks Officer_Charon is part of the problem.

Krisken then swings and misses by saying "Not all cops" is bad. Because "Not all blacks" is also bad. Oh wait, he'd never agree to that. But "Not all men" is definitely bad. But the instant someone says something general about black people, Charlie, Krisken, and the whole gang pile on to tear them apart.

And then, and here's the icing on the cake, Ravenpoe comes along and pities the officers because, according to him, it's near to impossible to be an officer without turning into a bad officer.

So, you see, we've got the whole crew.

Charlie: "Dude. Blacks are bad news."
Krisken: "Yeah. And those people who say, 'not all blacks' are totally off their rocker."
Ravenpoe: "Hey now, guys. I wouldn't put it that way, even you're basically right. The problem isn't their fault. They can't help it, they're brainwashed."

Oh, whoops. I mixed up blacks for police officers.

And now you've actually added another rock to the large pile that Officer_Charon daily carries around trying to do his best to uphold the law, and perhaps helped him reach a tipping point where he thinks maybe he's in the wrong profession. Not because he's a bad black - oh, sorry, police officer - but because you guys are angry at a handful of other officers.

I simply cannot believe it.

But it's ok to hate them as a group because you've got "one police friend and he's totally ok - it's all those other bad cops," and you have the temerity to say these things to his face, and then turn around and say, "but not you" or "it's not your fault."

"All cops are bad cops - but only some of them had the opportunity"
"All men are rapists - but only some of them had the opportunity"
"All blacks/whites/jew/pickarace are bad - but only some of them had the opportunity"

I understand the basic plan requires that you demonize the other side, and it's a lot more effective if you demonize the group rather than the individuals. Racists and sexists have used these tactics for years. It's convenient to go ahead and remove their voice from the conversation by denying them the opportunity to defend themselves by telling them they can't say "not all X".

How does it feel to be using the same techniques and strategies of the KKK? Of dictators?

The law enforcement system needs constant change - society changes, and the government, including the executive authority, needs to change with it.

But what you're doing isn't change.

It's a lynching.

And now you're openly attacking one of our own.

This is sickening.
It's getting crowded in here with all these straw men.
 
My cousin who is a prison guard and I recently had a long talk about these types of positions of authority. He basically told me how eventually you have no choice but to view every single inmate as a lying cheating animal because if you show kindness to the wrong person, you can end up dead.

I get that, I really do. The problem is that out in the streets, police officers don't know who is guilty and who is innocent. My father was a police officer, and also a deplorable human being, but that doesn't mean that I think that all cops are corrupted evil people. That being said, I've seen first hand that the system isn't fair or just. Of course being in a small town, it meant that my father wasn't dealing with the extremes we're looking at here, but I can't even count the amount of times that he and his buddies let drunk driving and spousal abuse cases just slide because someone was a drinking buddy, or was related to someone in the local government.

To an extent, yes, cops have to view everyone as a possible threat, because everyone IS a POSSIBLE threat. What these cases revolve around is whether or not the amount of force used was excessive. I'd say that in the most recent example, the amount of force used was extremely excessive, and the fact that it was a big ole black dude is probably the reason that excessive force was used at all.

So, is this endemic of the police as a whole? Certainly not, but the way it was treated for THESE PARTICULAR OFFICERS was a miscarriage of justice.

Like it or not, Steinman, criminals have basic human rights too.
 
Trials are about determining whether or not someone committed a crime. They can either admit to it (guilty plea), take their lumps (nolo), or dispute the accusation (not guilty).
Grand Juries, as I understand it, are about determining whether or not there is enough evidence to even bother going to trial. They are not a "dry run" of a trial, they are merely a scale upon which the amount of evidence is weighed.
That said, an accusation/trial is a pretty specific thing. "Wrongful death" is not the same thing as "manslaughter," which is not the same thing as "murder," for instance. It is entirely possible that other, different charges may be filed at a later date, and that a trial did not go forward because someone felt it would be better to back up and reclassify things rather than going forward with whatever they had originally chosen.

--Patrick
 
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