Gas Bandit's Political Thread V: The Vampire Likes Bats

[Eriol]

Like it or not, most Americans (and most people) like protecting children from things they feel they are not adult enough to address, including drugs, sex, and eating habits. People want to have some licensing system for cars. They overwhelmingly like the Civil Rights Act.

Ya, those people should be their parents. Not the government. Government should only step in when a threshold of abuse is crossed, and that should be very clear and obvious. Beyond that, they're your kids, they're your responsibility, not the government. There is room for some other accommodations, like Public School, vaccinations, etc, but it should be NARROW. It is the Parents' job to keep track of and regulate their kids, not the government's.

Chad, absolutely everything you cited there is their parents' responsibility to oversee, not the government's IMO. There's a reason that "Nanny State" is seen as a bad thing by a lot of people. And that even applies to children too!

 

[Hailey Knight]

Italics and bold.

 

[Krisken]

Ya, those people should be their parents. Not the government. Government should only step in when a threshold of abuse is crossed, and that should be very clear and obvious. Beyond that, they're your kids, they're your responsibility, not the government. There is room for some other accommodations, like Public School, vaccinations, etc, but it should be NARROW. It is the Parents' job to keep track of and regulate their kids, not the government's.

Chad, absolutely everything you cited there is their parents' responsibility to oversee, not the government's IMO. There's a reason that "Nanny State" is seen as a bad thing by a lot of people. And that even applies to children too!

This is going to surprise people, but on these issues, I pretty much agree with you. What usually turns people off from the libertarian platform though is all the stuff that comes after that. Repealing the income tax law is ludicrous and unrealistic. Free market banking is insane and encourages all manner of corruption. Education is most definitely not best supported by the free market as they claim.

I could go on and on, but there is just too much wishing that the policies they want to enact will magically make everything sunshine and rainbows and fails to address the impacts these changes will have on an entire society, especially on a class level.

 

[GasBandit]

Repealing the income tax law is ludicrous and unrealistic.

Not at all. The country got along fine without a federal income tax until it was enacted in 1913. It's not the only way for the government to raise the money it needs to operate. Of course, there's also a difference of opinion on how much money the federal government should need to operate....

Free market banking is insane and encourages all manner of corruption.

Fraud is not part of the libertarian platform. Competition is.

Education is most definitely not best supported by the free market as they claim.

Of course it is - competition strengthens the results of any system and gets consumers the most bang for their buck. But all the libertarians are really talking about right now is vouchers, not necessarily a complete privatization of all educational institutions.

I could go on and on, but there is just too much wishing that the policies they want to enact will magically make everything sunshine and rainbows and fails to address the impacts these changes will have on an entire society, especially on a class level.

Freedom is scary, got it.

 

[Krisken]

Not at all. The country got along fine without a federal income tax until it was enacted in 1913. It's not the only way for the government to raise the money it needs to operate. Of course, there's also a difference of opinion on how much money the federal government should need to operate....


Fraud is not part of the libertarian platform. Competition is.

Of course it is - competition strengthens the results of any system and gets consumers the most bang for their buck. But all the libertarians are really talking about right now is vouchers, not necessarily a complete privatization of all educational institutions.


Freedom is scary, got it.

Like I said, unrealistic wishing.

While the government did operate on an income without the income tax, there isn't a way they could enact a tax that would fairly distribute the burden upon the citizens. I'm not saying this tax code is good either though. It's a fumbled mess of special interests trying to gain an advantage. I'm also not saying I have the solution because I don't. That just means I don't have the hubris to think I know better than everyone else

Fraud may not be part of the platform, but it sure wouldn't do anything to make it illegal and would provide no protections for those who get trampled in competition's path.

Unfortunately, the private education system is not truly tested- it allows students to be removed from its schools, providing unrealistic data and allowing the schools to cherry pick data by cherry picking who gets to attend, not something which can be done if everyone gets a choice on where to go. Again, there are things which need to be fixed with schools, but I don't have the hubris to claim to have the solution.

Freedom isn't scary. Reckless faith is.

 

[GasBandit]

While the government did operate on an income without the income tax, there isn't a way they could enact a tax that would fairly distribute the burden upon the citizens. I'm not saying this tax code is good either though. It's a fumbled mess of special interests trying to gain an advantage. I'm also not saying I have the solution because I don't. That just means I don't have the hubris to think I know better than everyone else

The Fair Tax is progressive at the lower end. It prebates all taxes below the poverty line, whether the money is actually collected or not. Wages go up across the board (again, because of competition), and people who spend more, obviously, pay more.

Fraud may not be part of the platform, but it sure wouldn't do anything to make it illegal and would provide no protections for those who get trampled in competition's path.

Actually, combating fraud is explicitly part of the platform as well. Libertarianism (and the free market) is not anarchy.

Unfortunately, the private education system is not truly tested- it allows students to be removed from its schools, providing unrealistic data and allowing the schools to cherry pick data by cherry picking who gets to attend, not something which can be done if everyone gets a choice on where to go. Again, there are things which need to be fixed with schools, but I don't have the hubris to claim to have the solution.

But you sure as hell want to prevent people from attempting any solution other than "throw more money at exactly what we're doing right now."

Freedom isn't scary. Reckless faith is.

You're sure scared to try even a little of something you're not afraid of.

 

[Krisken]

That's not any of what I said and you offered no solutions. When you do address what I say and offer solutions, I'll happily engage.

 

[GasBandit]

That's not any of what I said and you offered no solutions. When you do address what I say and offer solutions, I'll happily engage.

I just said "The Fair Tax!"

And previous to that I said school vouchers! You said "it hasn't been tested" WELL LET'S TEST IT!

As for bank fraud, "bank fraud is still illegal." I assume we will continue to investigate and prosecute fraud as we do now, only, you know, without Barney Frank screaming "racism" if ever there's a hint of a bank thinking it might should not give a mortgage to someone who clearly can't afford one, despite their minority status.

 

[AshburnerX]

As for bank fraud, "bank fraud is still illegal." I assume we will continue to investigate and prosecute fraud as we do now, only, you know, without Barney Frank screaming "racism" if ever there's a hint of a bank thinking it might should not give a mortgage to someone who clearly can't afford one, despite their minority status.

The government has a vested interest in providing minorities with the means to acquire housing loans, as both it and private financiers have historically denied minorities such loans or provided predatory loans to them in order to deny them the same standard of living as their white peers. This was done with no concern for their financial status, period. White people just didn't want to live next to brown and black people, ether because it affected their home values or they were simply racist douche bags.

Red-lining was a thing. It happened for decades. We are all better off if it doesn't happen again.

 

[GasBandit]

I respectfully request a postponement of my participation in this debate, on the grounds of right now I hate everyone and everything and want half of mankind to die drowning upside down in a lake of boiling feces while the skin is ripped from their flesh feet first at the rate of 1cm per minute, while the other half of mankind is slowly killed by dehydration with hooks through their ribcages, suspended above the boiling fecal lake, with giant saltshakers tied to their feet so that their agonized kicking continually salts the flayed wretches below, and as such am not in the right frame of mind to discuss what would probably be best for the American people.

 

[blotsfan]

I hate everyone and everything and want half of mankind to die drowning upside down in a lake of boiling feces while the skin is ripped from their flesh feet first at the rate of 1cm per minute, while the other half of mankind is slowly killed by dehydration with hooks through their ribcages, suspended above the boiling fecal lake, with giant saltshakers tied to their feet so that their agonized kicking continually salts the flayed wretches below

Yes, we know you're a libertarian.

 

[PatrThom]

Yes, we know you're a libertarian.

I was going to say that this did not sound like the usual Libertarian spiel.
Also, @GasBandit, Cranky would like to commend you on your creativity.

--Patrick

 

[Dei]

I respectfully request a postponement of my participation in this debate, on the grounds of right now I hate everyone and everything and want half of mankind to die drowning upside down in a lake of boiling feces while the skin is ripped from their flesh feet first at the rate of 1cm per minute, while the other half of mankind is slowly killed by dehydration with hooks through their ribcages, suspended above the boiling fecal lake, with giant saltshakers tied to their feet so that their agonized kicking continually salts the flayed wretches below, and as such am not in the right frame of mind to discuss what would probably be best for the American people.

So cleaning plus the start of a new work month is going very well.

 

[Krisken]

I respectfully request a postponement of my participation in this debate, on the grounds of right now I hate everyone and everything and want half of mankind to die drowning upside down in a lake of boiling feces while the skin is ripped from their flesh feet first at the rate of 1cm per minute, while the other half of mankind is slowly killed by dehydration with hooks through their ribcages, suspended above the boiling fecal lake, with giant saltshakers tied to their feet so that their agonized kicking continually salts the flayed wretches below, and as such am not in the right frame of mind to discuss what would probably be best for the American people.

Fair enough. Hopefully we can both be in the best frame of mind at the same time to further the discussion.

 

[Chad Sexington]

Ya, those people should be their parents. Not the government. Government should only step in when a threshold of abuse is crossed, and that should be very clear and obvious. Beyond that, they're your kids, they're your responsibility, not the government. There is room for some other accommodations, like Public School, vaccinations, etc, but it should be NARROW. It is the Parents' job to keep track of and regulate their kids, not the government's.

Chad, absolutely everything you cited there is their parents' responsibility to oversee, not the government's IMO. There's a reason that "Nanny State" is seen as a bad thing by a lot of people. And that even applies to children too!

Except that parents fail sometimes. They make mistakes, small ones and tragic ones, and other parents are negligent or even malicious. Should the government not have some intervention? Yeah, of course parents have a responsibility to keep children from trying heroin. I would argue society, and its government, has an obligation to help parents do that. I'm not trying to shriek "THINK OF THE CHILDREN" but I do think it's possible to both allow for the sexual revolution and not want children exposed to sexuality. These aren't contradictory values. I agree that parents should do these things, but most things I think should be the case are not.

 

[Covar]

Except that parents fail sometimes. They make mistakes, small ones and tragic ones, and other parents are negligent or even malicious. Should the government not have some intervention? Yeah, of course parents have a responsibility to keep children from trying heroin. I would argue society, and its government, has an obligation to help parents do that. I'm not trying to shriek "THINK OF THE CHILDREN" but I do think it's possible to both allow for the sexual revolution and not want children exposed to sexuality. These aren't contradictory values. I agree that parents should do these things, but most things I think should be the case are not.

That's addressed in the second sentence of his statement.

 

[Chad Sexington]

That's addressed in the second sentence of his statement.

I don't think it is, because it isn't always a matter of abuse, and even when it is, it isn't always clear - I think there are grey areas, and methods of prevention should be in place.

 

[Sparhawk]

I don't think it is, because it isn't always a matter of abuse, and even when it is, it isn't always clear - I think there are grey areas, and methods of prevention should be in place.

Who's grey areas? Letting a child walk a couple of blocks to a playground? Letting a child play outside unsupervised? Not catering to every demand of a privileged child that thinks they are being abused because they aren't getting what they want right then? All of those cases have prompted the intervention of Child Protective services in different areas in the past couple of years. The line for intervention should be very clear cut, and until then the government should stay out of it. It shouldn't be a parent living in real fear (not kidding or using hyperbole here) of someone else calling in the authorities just because they aren't raising their child just like the parent next door. Currently there is too much grey area for a social worker to decide that what one parent is doing is abuse, and what another is doing is okie-dokie. My wife works with CPS and APS (Child and Adult protective services) and their rules about what constitutes what are woefully inadequate. Lots of room for different interpretations of the same guidelines.

Honestly, the way I was raised would constitute so much trouble for my parents if they were doing this today. I learned about firearms at age 5, rode bikes all over town without a helmet, played sports in all kinds of conditions and without the currently ever present adult supervision. Amazingly I never got in trouble, never seriously injured myself, never seriously injured another (hey, we were boys being boys, injuries did happen), broke some things (stuff not me), fixed others, and basically learned about the world by doing, not waiting on someone to tell me. I realize that our knowledge of what is happening in the world has expanded greatly, but overall I don't think that the world has changed all that much in the past 40ish years.

 

[Hailey Knight]

It shouldn't be a parent living in real fear (not kidding or using hyperbole here) of someone else calling in the authorities just because they aren't raising their child just like the parent next door. Currently there is too much grey area for a social worker to decide that what one parent is doing is abuse, and what another is doing is okie-dokie.

It shouldn't be a kid living in fear of their parent(s) either.

How about the grey areas where the social worker decides the situation is not worth investigating, i.e. not doing their fucking job? I don't know how thorough they are in Texas, but Indiana CPS seems to be pretty much asking the parent if they're abusive and taking the answer at face value. Around here in DC, we had a situation where neighbors reported to CPS frequently that something was wrong at a house in their neighborhood, with CPS doing nothing, and only when a kid was found wandering naked in the street was the home investigated, where the bodies of the kid's two sisters were found in a freezer.

 

[PatrThom]

...that escalated quickly.

--Patrick

 

[jwhouk]

The problem is threefold:

1. CPS agents are routinely overwhelmed with cases, because government workers are treated like stuff you scrape off the bottom of your shoe and are paid accordingly;
2. Agents deal with what's in front of them - and that's usually repeat offenders;
3. Those who are real abusers are very good at hiding what they're doing - or, at least good enough that they can get through a home visit without drawing attention, which isn't too difficult because of 1 and 2.

 

[GasBandit]

I begin to reply, but I keep deleting my posts because they always end up skewing into "shit is completely fucked and I pray for armageddon" territory.

 

[Bubble181]

We're already living in a dystopian scifi world, so why not?

 

[PatrThom]

I begin to reply but I keep running out of time because I am trying to carefully craft my posts to say what I want them to say and then I'm late for work/my break is over/etc.

--Patrick

 

[Gruebeard]

I begin to reply, but then realize I have nothing of substance to contribute. But I post it, anyway.

 

[Bubble181]

I begin to reply, then I just push a rating button instead.

 

[Krisken]

I begin to reply. Shit, not again.

 

[GasBandit]

"I begin to reply" IS NOT A MEME

 

[strawman]

"I begin to reply" IS NOT A MEME

TOO LATE.

 

[AshburnerX]

"I begin to reply" IS NOT A MEME

 

[Gruebeard]

"I begin to reply" IS NOT A MEME

I begin to obey, but then I realize that you are not a meme cop.

 

[blotsfan]

Lightning crashes, I begin to reply.

 

[GasBandit]

 

[Denbrought]

I REPLY, I REFRESH, I REPLY AGAIN

 

[PatrThom]

I begin to reply, but admin will lock me.

--Patrick