Fair enough. At least its a bit better now.
Gas Bandit's Political Thread V: The Vampire Likes Bats
- Thread starter GasBandit
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Whatever you say.
Dave
Staff member
Exactly. Let's have all cops release every criminal or anyone doing something illegal because when they get put into the system they might get abused at a holding facility. What a great idea! The fact you can't differentiate shows me that you don't WANT to differentiate. Anyone in uniform just bugs the shit out of you. Which is just short sighted and stupid. The policy of what ICE is doing is evil and wrong on many levels. But it's NOT the fault of the cops or gate guards who arrest people doing illegal things. Once more, the inability to differentiate or a blind willful ignorance is obtuse.
Dave
Staff member
Gee, if I'm driving drunk and didn't hurt anyone I should be let go. I shoplifted. Nobody got hurt. I should go free. For fuck's sake.
Dave
Staff member
And trying to get on a military base as an undocumented person. THAT'S ILLEGAL. So he was detained. I fail to see what's so hard to understand about that.
Dave
Staff member
So detain them while their asylum claim is being run. But you DON'T have to house them inhumanely or remove their children. Which is exactly why I'm saying ICE is the problem. We completely agree on that. But you take it several steps further and say that it's the fault of the enforcement agents and it's absolutely not.
I feel like some of you have missed it last page, so let me post it again:
The gate guard thing is a bit more complicated, since he was reporting what could have been a security breach.
But just "obeying the rules" is not an excuse that works by itself imo.
And since they're arresting them all, they can only keep their kids for 20 days. Not that they're even bothering to do that...
If they know they're going to be tortured after they turn them over, it kind of is.
The gate guard thing is a bit more complicated, since he was reporting what could have been a security breach.
But just "obeying the rules" is not an excuse that works by itself imo.
Maybe the original link is incorrect, but the not-exactly-right-wing (the opposite really) CBC in Canada says this:
So the previous thing about embassies are probably right, but maybe not, depends, though asylum has been claimed at embassies before, but even then the advice I quoted before was for to claim it once you were safe which is very different than your deliberate mis-interpretation above. But either way, if you want to claim asylum, do it at an ACTUAL port of entry. Trying to sneak in is NOT proving your pure intentions, more the opposite.
And as I mentioned before, this is NOT about actual asylum seekers in many many cases (by which I mean they'll be killed at home). This is about people wanting to live someplace nicer, no matter what the people already there want. They don't want to do it legally, they just want to do it.
So you're quoting a Canadian source to counter actual US .gov sites?
And anyway, it's pretty clear that the laws are wacky, and that allows them to arrest immigrants either way, while their asylum claim is being processed.
Also, where do you think they keep the people once they apply at a point of entry?
And anyway, it's pretty clear that the laws are wacky, and that allows them to arrest immigrants either way, while their asylum claim is being processed.
Also, where do you think they keep the people once they apply at a point of entry?
Dave
Staff member
First, he didn't say "asylum is illegal" he said "illegal immigration is against the law". These are vastly different things. Holding those who are in the country illegally - NOT claiming asylum - is perfectly fine, although not like it's being done right now.
As to your second point, wrong. wrong wrongity wrong. This is one of those cases where you have to trust in the system. I know, I know. That's not something you want to have to do. But cops don't let criminals go because prison might be considered torturous. Gate guards can't just let people go because in most cases their hands are tied and if they DON'T hold them then THEY are breaking a law, even if it's merely disobeying a direct order.
Have cops and gate guards looked the other way? Absolutely. But they are doing so in direct conflict with what they are supposed to do. I would not have faulted the gate guard for letting the guy go just as I don't fault mayors who refuse to cooperate with ICE in "sanctuary cities". But I also don't fault them if they do their jobs. Now I say this with a major caveat - these people have been making these decisions PRIOR to what has been going on with ICE and the detention centers. Right now I would fully understand someone being let go instead of handed over. Which is not to say I agree with Blotsfan's assessment, just that when these earlier cases were made it was a different climate. Yes, ICE has always been a bad fucking idea, but they've gotten progressively worse, especially now at the borders.
GasBandit
Staff member
The thing is, if you want non-illegal immigrant labor, you have to pay non-illegal immigrant wages.
Dave
Staff member
Believe it or not but they DO pay over minimum wage. Wages have been going up and Americans still don't want the jobs.
http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-farms-immigration/
http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-farms-immigration/
It's really more than that; there is actual skill and knowledge involved in harvesting fruit and vegetables and many people who come from former farmer families simply don't know how to do it without damaging plants; they whole point was to stop having to do this shit so the knowledge wasn't passed down. So not only is doing this shit back breaking labor, you need to have actual knowledge on how to do it right or you're just going to fuck up the harvest.
Basically, these skills have kind of vanished from the knowledge base of most white Americans. It's one of the primary reasons we hire workers from places that still rely on some amount of subsistence farming; they actually know how to do the work.
Well if we do it to our own citizens with for-profit prisons, it must be okay to do it to non-citizens, right? Especially since we all know non-citizens have fewer rights and privileges than REAL Americans anyway.
—Patrick
GasBandit
Staff member
I didn't say "minimum wage." I wouldn't want to pick avocados in the hot sun for 30k/year, either, especially not in california where the cost of living is more than double what it is anywhere else. So... if you can't attract workers that AREN'T trying to live an illegal clandestine life with low wages... maybe it's time for Avocados to get more expensive, and pay the wages the market demands.
That is a good point, and if agricultural work is skilled labor, we should take that into account in our immigration priorities process. As it is now, we're not - because the "black market" labor is satisfying the demand while everyone involved either looks the other way or directly profits.
GasBandit
Staff member
Also, I'd like to take this opportunity to re-voice an idea I have in the past - Gas Bandit's Cure for Illegal Immigration (tm).
Instead of chasing down the illegal immigrants, chase down their employers. Refocus all investigation on those hiring black market labor. Anyone found employing someone in the country illegally gets jail time. Hard jail time. And so does their immediate supervisor. And their company gets a $1 mil fine per count. Draconian, yes, but companies will rush to change policy and make sure they can pass an audit squeaky clean.
Once the milk is soured, the rest sorts itself out. Might not even need to detain illegals anymore.
Instead of chasing down the illegal immigrants, chase down their employers. Refocus all investigation on those hiring black market labor. Anyone found employing someone in the country illegally gets jail time. Hard jail time. And so does their immediate supervisor. And their company gets a $1 mil fine per count. Draconian, yes, but companies will rush to change policy and make sure they can pass an audit squeaky clean.
Once the milk is soured, the rest sorts itself out. Might not even need to detain illegals anymore.
figmentPez
Staff member
*lobbyist hands over briefcase of money*
Politician: But what about the small business owner? They can't afford to deal with these dangerous and lying illegals! You'll just punish them for something they couldn't possibly know. This policy will hurt small business in America, and we can't have that, because small business is what makes America thrive.
GasBandit
Staff member
I was not saying it was likely to pass through congress
just that it would work.Might not have been as strong as you'd like but Obamas plan targeted businesses.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-immigration-proposal/?utm_term=.80c6ba321dce
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-immigration-proposal/?utm_term=.80c6ba321dce
GasBandit
Staff member
I think I remember us talking about that, years ago! I think I remember liking it. But I've slept a few times since then, so my memory is hazy, ya know?
Several of those terrible abusers are governments that we actively support. Also we are currently jailing toddlers so maybe our horse isn’t so high.
GasBandit
Staff member
"because he was gay"
Well, more like because he was found guilty of murder.
But yeah, the reasoning process of choosing between life imprisonment and death was farcical.
But he would not have been put in that position if he hadn't... you know... tried to rob a place he got fired from and then stabbed somebody 3 times (killing them) when they discovered him.
Well, more like because he was found guilty of murder.
But yeah, the reasoning process of choosing between life imprisonment and death was farcical.
But he would not have been put in that position if he hadn't... you know... tried to rob a place he got fired from and then stabbed somebody 3 times (killing them) when they discovered him.
That's besides the point. Assuming he's completely guilty (I haven't seen this contested and I don't know the case), it's still wrong and probably illegal to give a different punishment for the same crime, based on sexuality or gender.
Not to mention the reasoning is ludicrous.
GasBandit
Staff member
Oh, I agree.
But the death penalty is a completely valid sentence for the crime for which this man has been convicted. It wasn't even a crime of passion, there were no mitigating circumstances. IMO, cold blooded murder should merit the death penalty. Commutation to "life imprisonment" should only happen if there were extenuating/mitigating circumstances. Murdering someone because they walked in on you burglarizing the place is not that.