Gas Bandit's Political Thread V: The Vampire Likes Bats

[GasBandit]

As every political ideology has shown, ideals like that are great until people are involved. The left doesn't want rules because they want to control people, they want rules because we have been shown time and again we cannot trust people to do what is right.

Like all things, it's not a binary switch, it's a sliding scale. Where along that scale are we, and what direction do we want the needle to move?

Even if there are those who don't "want" to control people, the next guy to come along might not be similarly inclined.

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

― C. S. Lewis

 

[Terrik]

Government that is powerful enough to give you everything you need, is powerful enough to take everything you have. That's the Libertarian screed.

Which is why sometimes a big, all-powerful government like China can raise the populous out of illiteracy, and then do horrendous things on a national scale that no one can do anything about. It's why I have allergies towards Authoritarianism myself.

 

[Cog]

A lot of people who claim to be libertarians don't understand that not wearing a mask is the same as not stopping your fist when it finds a nose.

And that's because there's stupid people in the libertarian camp, too.

But what is the correct government response to that kind of behaviour?

 

[PatrThom]

But what is the correct government response to that kind of behaviour?

This question can't be answered, because there is no objective measure of what would be "correct."

--Patrick

 

[GasBandit]

Public schooling? Nah. EPA? Nah. Post Office? Nah. IRS? Nah. FCC? Nah. I could go on. So yeah, TRUMP was authoritarian, but the government was a wild west of libertarian stupidity and nonesense.

Ehh, you're half right and half wrong. The control being exerted on the school system by Betsy DeVos, and the direction to make curriculum more jingoistic was VERY authoritarian. The FCC argument (IE, the internet) is rooted in prioritizing the authoritarian's wish to enrich himself and therefore stubbornly refuse to admit that net infrastructure is the same as telephone infrastructure.

Half and half on the Post Office. Libertarians have wanted to end its monopoly to open up opportunity for private enterprise to compete with it, but what happened over the last 4 years was not about that, nor correctly implemented if it was to be to that end - it was about sabotaging it for political power via voter suppression. Again, authoritarian.

But as for the IRS? Of course lower taxes has been a staple of wanting to reduce government power.

 

[PatrThom]

Libertarians have wanted to end its monopoly to open up opportunity for private enterprise to compete with it

I don't know. The Post Office seems like it's the equivalent of a public utility, but for delivering stuff.

--Patrick

 

[GasBandit]

I don't know. The Post Office seems like it's the equivalent of a public utility, but for delivering stuff.

--Patrick

It's not illegal to compete with the power company, but it is illegal to compete with the post office.

 

[ScytheRexx]

It's not illegal to compete with the power company, but it is illegal to compete with the post office.

Curious what you mean on this, as the Post Office has many competitors. The only difference is the competitors can't use things like stamps or mailboxes, but I can send a letter through UPS or FedEx just fine, so I guess it all comes down to what we mean by "competing".

 

[Krisken]

The USPS has a monopoly on certain kinds of post. However, and this is the bit ignored above, they are highly regulated by Congress as a result, leading to stupidity such as needing to have an insane amount in pensions for years in the future.

The USPS is a monopoly because it guarantees delivery to all of the US. Its the highway of letters, and is a utility in essence.

 

[Ravenpoe]

Libertarians, like Republicans, and like liberal (not leftist) Democrats, are people who recognize the comfortable position of power or privilege they are in and want to keep it, propping up a social structure that by design squeezes the people on the bottom to empower those at the top. Everything else is just differences in marketing.

 

[ThatNickGuy]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like Libertarianism is pushing for more of a free market. And I'm sorry, but that just doesn't jive with me. We've seen what giant corporations do with a free market and it screws everyone who isn't on the top rung of the economy.

 

[PatrThom]

EVERY AREA of government was headed by people whose sole purpose was to dismantle it and any regulatory protects for the American people. Which is SUPER libertarian. Public schooling? Nah. EPA? Nah. Post Office? Nah. IRS? Nah. FCC? Nah. I could go on. So yeah, TRUMP was authoritarian, but the government was a wild west of libertarian stupidity and nonesense.

To me, these changes didn't feel like a bunch of Libertarians seizing power to spread their Libertarian agenda or subvert the will of the People, it felt like they were put in place solely to enact changes that would facilitate the short-term diversion of public monies into the pockets of private individuals. "Hurting the People" was never the actual goal, the goal was entirely about "More for us/myself!" and "hurting the People" was simply treated as the waste product of their grift, and was heedlessly dumped into the environment without any thought as to the damage it would cause.

I mean, even the lowliest shepherd knows that you need to take care of the sheep after you fleece them, because you want to be able to fleece them again later. But these folks are just fleecing the agencies and chucking 'em out into the cold because they can't be bothered to think of the long-term effects of their strip-mining.

--Patrick

 

[Dave]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like Libertarianism is pushing for more of a free market. And I'm sorry, but that just doesn't jive with me. We've seen what giant corporations do with a free market and it screws everyone who isn't on the top rung of the economy.

Which is why the dismantling of the government from the inside to remove as many regulations as possible is very libertarian and just stupid. The hand of the free market doesn't exist. It's a fallacy.

 

[Krisken]

The reason the hand of the market is invisible is because it's a figment of our imagination.

 

[DarkAudit]

That "hand of the free market" told those miners who voted for orange boi and refused other training to get fucked.

 

[PatrThom]

the dismantling of the government from the inside to remove as many regulations as possible is very libertarian and just stupid.

Again, this dismantling wasn't done to be Libertarian, it was done because the regulations in question were limiting monetary gain (and also somewhat because they were limiting the ability to glorify one ideology as superior to all others).

--Patrick

 

[Dave]

Doesn't matter. It's was what it was whether it was intended to be that way or not.

 

[Krisken]

Broke down and bought the Obama book Promised Land. He brings up talking to the gardeners, and I try to imagine Trump doing this.

 

[DarkAudit]

Broke down and bought the Obama book Promised Land. He brings up talking to the gardeners, and I try to imagine Trump doing this.

Could you imagine orange boi trying to console the nation after something like the Challenger explosion? I don't know whether to laugh, cry, or throw up.

 

[PatrThom]

Doesn't matter. It's was what it was whether it was intended to be that way or not.

Oh, come on now. That's like saying a person should be charged with murder if they kill the person who kidnaps and rapes them because "killing is murder, regardless whether it was intended that way or not." Mentes reae definitely matter, and can be the entire difference between a criminal act and "well I guess that didn't work let's try something else."

--Patrick

 

[Celt Z]

He brings up talking to the gardeners, and I try to imagine Trump doing this.

 

[Dave]

 

[Dave]

Oh, come on now. That's like saying a person should be charged with murder if they kill the person who kidnaps and rapes them because "killing is murder, regardless whether it was intended that way or not." Mentes reae definitely matter, and can be the entire difference between a criminal act and "well I guess that didn't work let's try something else."

--Patrick

Yeah these are exactly the same situations.

 

[Krisken]

Did all the damage he could, eh?

 

[blotsfan]

Libertarians are authoritarians who want corporations to be the explicit rulers, not government officials.

 

[PatrThom]

Heh. The replies to that tweet:

Person1: "Good riddance."
Person2: "Good riddance."
Person3: "Good riddance."
[click here for more replies]

You know, I think I can tell what the rest of the replies are going to be, thanks.

Yeah these are exactly the same situations.

Exactly. Glad we can see eye-to-eye on this.
Or, at a minimum, agree to disagree.

--Patrick

 

[Dei]

For all his bluster, Gas is not really a libertarian, he just can't detach himself from the word. Much like the concept of "Republican," or "Democrat," "Libertarian" has taken on a wholely different meaning than it's original intention.

 

[PatrThom]

Much like the concept of "Republican," or "Democrat," "Libertarian" has taken on a wholely different meaning than it's original intention.

There is no purple, there are only #FF0000 or #0000FF and nothing else and anyone who says otherwise must be one of the impure "undecided" and therefore not worth listening to.

--Patrick

 

[ThatNickGuy]

I wish there was another term for whatever I would call myself, politically. I'm definitely more liberally minded, obviously, but I don't support the Canadian Liberal party. Largely because they're not liberal enough for me. The NDP or especially the Green Party are more my line of thinking. Progressive, maybe? Probably a "filthy socialist" to some.

 

[ScytheRexx]

Sometimes this all feels so bizarre.

I am not a smart person. I like to read, I like history, I like checking my sources, I am open to being wrong on something, because in the end, no one is perfect, but in the end I am average, maybe even a little dumb (stupid math!)

But I seriously can't wrap my head around how BLATANT this shit can get and how people believe it. Jenna Ellis just tweeted that the AZ Gov "rushed through" certification while they were doing their "Arizona Hearing" and puts out a call to stop his "misconduct". Anyone that even took a passing glimpse at the state schedule though knew that certification was going to happen on this day over a week ago. Yet last Friday they just so happened to decide to do their "Arizona Hearing" on the same scheduled day, and why? Because they knew they could then claim "misconduct" and all these idiots on Twitter would either believe it, or be more then happy to carry the narrative because "fuck libtards".

These people need to be disbarred.

 

[figmentPez]

A while back there was a big flurry of products dropping artificial colors. Cereals, sodas, etc. That died out, and I've recently been thinking about it again, and wondered what happened, because I thought it was more than just a trendy thing to appeal to consumers. It dawned on me today what happened: the Trump presidency. So, my prediction for the FDA under Biden is that some food coloring is going to be revealed as hazardous, and all the food companies will be all "oh my! That's terrible. It's a good thing we just happened to have stopped putting that in our product years ago."

 

[@Li3n]

The hand of the free market doesn't exist. It's a fallacy.

Nah, the real issue is that people seem to take the idea of it as some sort of benevolent force that always makes things right at no cost.

As i recall, even Adam Smith was pointing out that the whole thing only works when both sides earnestly seek their own self interest, and not do it by trying to screw over the other party.

Much like natural selection, the markets will self correct eventually, but there's no guarantee that it will be pretty.

The French Revolution was technically a self correction of the markets after they got fucked over by France spending too much money on that whole thing in North America and going bankrupt over it etc.

 

[PatrThom]

I am not a smart person.

LIAR

I've seen what you've posted on this board. I know better.

--Patrick

 

[ScytheRexx]

I've seen what you've posted on this board. I know better.

I really ain't!

I can recite the entire Klingon Warrior's Anthem, but if you asked me to convert miles into kilometers or how the hell a transmission in a car works or where the hell Belgium is in relation to Germany off the top of my head, I would have to google it.

I think that is what makes me different. I accept I don't know everything and I look up multiple sources to learn and get better when I find what I know lacking, rather then latch onto the first source that screams at me. I like to think critically on how to work through problems or parse information. I look up documents, pull out the dictionary, research, etc. I may not remember all of what I learn in a few weeks due to my horrible memory, but if I am going to talk about it, I am going to actually try to know what I am talking about. There have been a lot of replies I almost posted here, where I wrote it all down, decided to look a little closer, and saw I was mistaken, and just never posted it.

Now if only others were willing to take that initiative.

 

[PatrThom]

I really ain't!

I repeat myself: LIAR!

I accept I don't know everything and I look up multiple sources to learn and get better when I find what I know lacking, rather then latch onto the first source that screams at me.

...see?

To me, intelligence is not determined by how much you have memorized, but instead by how well you can make use of what you know.

--Patrick