My Fault I'm Female

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makare

Chazwozel;419798][QUOTE=makare said:
facial hair is just a further extension of head hair. we have to keep head hair neat, both genders, men just have more head hair. that is not the same as having to purchase, learn to apply and wear cosmetics.
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Sure it is. We have to purchase and learn to use razors. It's not cheap to shave, or maintain a short haircut. To keep a nice trim haircut, we have to spend about 20 bucks a month at the barber. It comes with the job though. As a lawyer you make enough to support the look.

So... what you're telling me is that you wouldn't wear make-up despite knowing that not doing would probably make you look like a slob in the eyes of the jury and judge?

I agree it's a gender based grooming requirement, but it's very much akin to men having to have trimmed beards as well. Women aren't required to wear ties either. Those things ain't cheap.[/QUOTE]

women have to buy nylons and stuff like that. Our shoes are generally more expensive. etc Also women have to keep their hair cut nicely too and a good hair cut costs like 50 bucks.

Women do not look like slobs just because they dont wear makeup. I wear makeup sometimes but only because I want to. I don't look bad without it. If my job required me to wear makeup they would either have to pay me more to pay for it or I would find another job. Im not covering my face with makeup unless I want to.
 
Officer_Charon

Officer_Charon

I usually don't weigh in on rants like this because I don't feel that, as only being one half of the situation, I can have any realistic perspective on how the other half views things.

Lacking Nyanniichuan, I must soldier on with my solely male perspective. I hold doors for everyone, not just women, because it's a polite thing to do. I say "sir," and "ma'am," because that's how I was raised. I expect women to prefer to do stuff for themselves because that's what I learned, growing up in my generation.

Living down South has been interesting with regards to the gender standard. For the most part, women down here seem to revel in "being taken care of," not learning how to do various things such as changing tires, because "that's what a man's for." It didn't really bother me so much until I bumped into it with my own wife, who grew up in rural Alabama. It's not that she's subservient, but she has a definite outlook on what she believes a woman's place to be, and how one is supposed to act with regards to work. To the point that she starts getting upset with me if I help out too much with household chores (well, more upset with herself for not doing them... I don't think she's ever really turned down an offer to help.)

I got side-tracked, but what I was trying to lean towards is that for everyone's perception of what is and is not sexist, it's important to also view where folks come from. Yes, there are some supremely sexist schmucks out there, primarily male, but with a significant number being female, too. But you can't just automatically label someone as behaving in a certain manner, until you get a feel for where they come from.

My $0.02
 
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Wasabi Poptart

I'm about to go get my hair cut in two days. It will cost me $45. Why don't I go some place cheaper? Because you get what you pay for. I have curly hair. I have had many, many bad hair cuts from Hair Cuttery and the like. Higher end salons have people who can style my hair type without ending up looking like a poodle or giving me a mullet. I hate it. I only go every 2 - 3 months because it's too expensive.

One problem with using men's hair products which do the same job is that they are normally scented for men. I don't necessarily want to smell like a guy.
 
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makare

Hehe I just asked my mom if someone needs to wear makeup to be professional. She said only if she is a prostitute.


i love my mom
 
Gusto

Gusto

Is some of this just market research? Do women's products/shoes/haircuts/et cetera cost more because women have been shown to be willing to spend more on them?
 
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Wasabi Poptart

Supposedly it costs more to make the shoes and clothes because of the way they need to be cut. I don't know that to be true. I do remember hearing it when I used to have to wear business suits. Paying $150 or more for one skirt or slacks and a jacket - no shoes, nylons, or blouse included - was absolutely ridiculous. I didn't get paid more for wardrobe costs either.

---------- Post added at 03:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:12 PM ----------

That was for a quality suit like Jones of New York, not a fall apart piece of crap from Target.
 
C

crono1224

Gusto said:
Is some of this just market research? Do women's products/shoes/haircuts/et cetera cost more because women have been shown to be willing to spend more on them?
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Get your logic out of this thread. Clearly price only depends on sex, not supply/demand, or what the demand is willing to pay for said products.
 
CynicismKills

CynicismKills

"So why did you leave your last job?"

"Oh, I didn't want to wear makeup and they didn't want to cover the cost of it."

I don't know about you but if I walked into a job interview looking like Grizzly Adams and not looking my absolute best, I wouldn't have a snowball's chance in Hell of getting that job.
 
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Wasabi Poptart

There's a difference between what you choose to wear on a job interview and what you must wear as a job requirement.
 
Gusto

Gusto

crono1224;419861][QUOTE=Gusto said:
Is some of this just market research? Do women's products/shoes/haircuts/et cetera cost more because women have been shown to be willing to spend more on them?
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Get your logic out of this thread. Clearly price only depends on sex, not supply/demand, or what the demand is willing to pay for said products.[/QUOTE]

What I mean is that ASSUME the costs of production are the same for, say, a pair of men's and women's shoes of similar quality.

If the company has noticed that men are willing to pay $40 for shoes of that quality, but women are willing to pay $55 for shoes of that quality, why should they make the prices equal? Price them both at $40 dollars and you're losing $15/unit of shoes that the average woman STILL would have spent. Price them both at $55 and the average man will not go for it.

It's not sexism, it's basic economics.

Granted this isn't really a solution or even a commentary on this issue of sexism as a whole, I'm just trying to partially debunk the "women have to pay more" thing. Women individually wouldn't have to pay more if women collectively weren't willing to pay for it.
 
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makare

Then I guess you want to shave. I look fine without makeup. I havent worn makeup to any job interview.
 
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Wasabi Poptart

Gusto said:
Women individually wouldn't have to pay more if women collectively weren't willing to pay for it.
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I have to wear shoes. My choice is to pay $15 for something that looks kind of crappy and isn't very business-like or pay $100 for a shoe that compliments my suit and complies with company policy. What choice do I have? I can't go barefoot. I can't wear the $15 shoe. I'm not willing to pay for it, but I have to any way.
 
Gusto

Gusto

I understand that, but it's not the individual company's fault. It's grandfathered into decades of marketing and economic standards, and unless there's some kind of Star Trek-esque Federation no-one-needs-money-everyone-gets-what-they-need paradigm shift, it will continue to trend that way.

A few years ago I really wanted to get a Playstation 3. I wasn't willing to drop $700 bucks for it at release. That doesn't mean Sony's gonna drop the price to suit me, since they still had people lining up for 3 days outside of stores to throw money at their feet.
 
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crono1224

Wasabi Poptart;419871][QUOTE=Gusto said:
Women individually wouldn't have to pay more if women collectively weren't willing to pay for it.
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I have to wear shoes. My choice is to pay $15 for something that looks kind of crappy and isn't very business-like or pay $100 for a shoe that compliments my suit and complies with company policy. What choice do I have? I can't go barefoot. I can't wear the $15 shoe. I'm not willing to pay for it, but I have to any way.[/QUOTE]

It is a catch 22, how do you drive down cost of things except to buy cheap as you can, do clearance shopping, buy online. There isn't a whole lot you can do but clearly there is middle ground between 20$ shoes and 400$ Donald Pliners.
 
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Wasabi Poptart

I don't think that's a good analogy. A pair of shoes/clothing/hair cut/etc. that is something you need for employment is not the same as a Playstation 3 that is not a necessary expense.
 
Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

This whole argument about which sex has to pay more for looking nice is kind of dumb.

I've never said women can't be sexist. They certainly can be, and be some of the most vicious. An older lady I worked with went off about Hillary Clinton saying how a woman can't run anything, not a company or a country. She talked about her long career as a secretary and how she refused to work for a woman again because they are just so awful of bosses and she always gets in fights with them. Of course, it's just because two women can't co-exist in an office, of course!
 
C

crono1224

The Lovely Boner said:
This whole argument about which sex has to pay more for looking nice is kind of dumb.

I've never said women can't be sexist. They certainly can be, and be some of the most vicious. An older lady I worked with went off about Hillary Clinton saying how a woman can't run anything, not a company or a country. She talked about her long career as a secretary and how she refused to work for a woman again because they are just so awful of bosses and she always gets in fights with them. Of course, it's just because two women can't co-exist in an office, of course!
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Interesting that your instance of a woman being sexist is still being sexist against another woman not a man.
 
Gusto

Gusto

Wasabi Poptart said:
I don't think that's a good analogy. A pair of shoes/clothing/hair cut/etc. that is something you need for employment is not the same as a Playstation 3 that is not a necessary expense.
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True. I very easily did not buy it. I can't think of any more apt analogies right now because I can't think of anything I own that's a necessary expense. And my job has very little requirements as far as a dress code for either gender. No jewelry, light makeup, no long or unruly facial hair, hairnets for EVERYONE, general hygiene, no strong scents for either gender, et cetera.

I'm not saying it wasn't socially irresponsible for companies in, say, the fifties to prey on the domestic woman's urge to own fancy shoes and pay top dollar for them, but that's informed our prices today and buying habits today, and it's just as... nearsighted for someone on a website to complain about the price of shoes as it is for some teenage girl to buy a pair of $200 dollar shoes because everyone else is wearing them.

If the market is still willing to pay a certain price for something, it is reasonable to charge that market for that product, regardless of gender, colour, religion, age, et cetera.
 
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Wasabi Poptart

Damn it! Gusto, you have a good point, though I do slightly disagree. I can't get my thoughts together right now since I'm trying to work on my homework while having this conversation. lol I r a gud stewdent.
 
Gusto

Gusto

I'm feeling kinda dumb today.

My apologies if I've offended anyone tonight, but I'm having trouble articulating for some reason. :p
 
C

crono1224

Maybe it's a complaint that price of things are fueled by possibly ridiculous requirements to buy them. Like all high school students in an area had to wear a special uniform, then they people who sold those saw this and jacked up the price because they knew it was a requirement.

The problem is for certain jobs a certain dress code is either required or highly encouraged, and it tends to be unavoidable that you will have to spend more on the requirements.
 
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Chazwozel

Tinwhistler said:
With corporate lawyers and other high-power jobs, there's a lot more to men's "grooming" than hair and beard, too. Men on the job are expected to drive certain classes of car, and live in certain neighborhoods, and frequent certain restaurants to rub elbows with other power players. Women are generally not required to do many of these same kinds of things, or do them to the extent that men are.

There's a certain level of gender inequality in life, because, lets face it, men and women are not the same. They are different. Both men and women should be given equal opportunities in the workplace and be free of sexual harassment and free of denigration based on gender, but to expect that women and men won't have to conform to those standards that society sets for them is just ludicrous. We are a race of conformists. If you want to get ahead, you have to spend the effort (and if it calls for it, spend the dollars) to conform with your peer group. If you reject those standards, you will be rejected in turn.

That's not sexist. It's simply how humans work in group situations.
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My bosses invited me to go golfing tomorrow. That ain't cheap.


Oh, btw, perk of the job for female scientists. You don't have to wear make-up! Btw, I'm not for nor against women wearing make-up as a requirement for the job. I'm only stating that most high power exec jobs require women to do so, especially when marketing is involved. So, no, I don't agree that only prositutes are the only female profession that requires make-up.
 
Cajungal

Cajungal

Staff member
Gusto said:
Is some of this just market research? Do women's products/shoes/haircuts/et cetera cost more because women have been shown to be willing to spend more on them?
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Sometimes the quality of a product is genuinely better. I do research before I need to buy a pair of good shoes for teaching or walking, and I often find that a 50$ shoe actually has worked better for people than the one that goes for $17.99. And then sometimes it's just that people want it and they know they can make it as expensive as they want... then justify the price with some pretentious reasoning or enticing ads. I find that's often the case.

When it comes to the "extra" or "more expensive" products I buy, I often choose generics and just switch shampoo brands often. That works pretty much as well as using an expensive one all the time. I also look up facts online for how to use everyday things in my house for skin treatment, and that saves me some money, too. As for makeup, I don't have terribly sensitive skin, so I just buy cheap stuff or wait for clearance sales at Walgreens. I've gotten fancy-shmancy mineral foundation for 3$ that was once 15$. And it's lasted months.
 
tegid

tegid

All this discussion about clothing prices sounds funny to me because around here, well, I don't know about fancy clothes (suits, et cetera) but low end clothes are cheaper, even much cheaper for women. I think it's because they buy more of them. Clothes that look like they are more expensive to produce are actually cheaper!

---------- Post added at 07:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:26 AM ----------

Also, Necronic, if a Mach 3 lasts you a month you are either not really 'hirsute' or have very tough skin...
 
Covar

Covar

Wasabi Poptart said:
Supposedly it costs more to make the shoes and clothes because of the way they need to be cut. I don't know that to be true. I do remember hearing it when I used to have to wear business suits. Paying $150 or more for one skirt or slacks and a jacket - no shoes, nylons, or blouse included - was absolutely ridiculous. I didn't get paid more for wardrobe costs either.

---------- Post added at 03:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:12 PM ----------

That was for a quality suit like Jones of New York, not a fall apart piece of crap from Target.
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That's the price for a low to mid range business suit. I'm not sure of the complaint.
 
Necronic

Necronic

Staff member
Tinwhistler;419813][QUOTE=Necronic said:
Sure, at the end of the month it starts hurting a bit, but that's just what being a man is all about.
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Lol, irony for the win.[/QUOTE]

Heh, good catch. Darnit....

Oh and about the Mach3, can't remember who asked me that, yeah I have a super thick set of chin whiskers. I can grow a full beard in 2 weeks. I can dry shave anymore mind you, that's something you have to work into.
 
strawman

strawman

Women's suits cost more than men's suits because

* they require more fitting (ie, there are more variables per suit)
* they don't sell as many (and thus can't simply order 5,000 of a given size/cut/style/cloth)

There is likely also the "party dress problem" where many women don't want to be dressed like another woman in the same office. Accessories can often fix this even if they wear the same suit style/color, but women demand more options for style/color/etc.

All of this mixes together to make it very difficult to successfully mass manufacture all women's clothing, nevermind suits.

Thus men's clothing is cheaper. Many men (enough for the purposes of mass manufacturing) simply don't care, and will merely get what's cheapest that meets the requirements even if it means they match every third guy on the sales floor.

Note copious use of "many" and other generalizing words indicating bias towards not definition. If you are offended it's probably because you are weak like a little boy. (ok, now you should be offended, because if I said little girl instead you would be offended and this is the same thing, right? right? :unibrow:)
 
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