Our chocolate still comes at a cost...

[Shegokigo]

Moral principle.

Stupid philosophy? Watch out for myself and fuck the world? I don't see the downside (for me). I'll be long gone before any of my slave chocolate buying "hurts the world". Enjoy the other 99% of things in your life gained by the suffering of others, Mr. Moral Principle.

 

[Terrik]

On a thread related topic. I am certainly changing my chocolate buying patterns.

Suicide:
Foxconns suicide rate is actually below the national average considering there are a couple hundred thousand people working in that factory. Nobody is being forced to work there and they would have to lie about their age to be below the national working age.

Salary:
you have to think in Yuan not US dollars. People in China buy houses with Yuan not U.S. Dollars. People buy food with Yuan not U.S. dollars. People pay for public transit with yuan not U.S. dollars. Do you know how much transit costs in Beijing? Bus: 50 Chinese cents which is about .9 of a U.S. penny. Subway 1 yuan which is about 1/6 of a dollar ten years ago that was 1/9th of a dollar.

1800 yuan is for the lowest paid position in the company. We are talking completely uneducated (completely) , untrained, unskilled labor that in North America would be begging on the street and if wages in China continue to rise (and the legal minimum working wage in China has been increased 8 times in the last year), these people will most likely be begging on the street.

Factory Conditions:
Conditions in the factory themselves are not bad at all. The factory has a movie theater, swimming pool, gym, supermarket, etc that is heavily subsidized by the company. The people I've met who used to work at foxconn (your average working stiff who are now working in our factory) certainly do not complain about the working conditions they used to have at Foxconn. If anything they complain that they were fired and then over the next couple of months emphasize why they were fired.

The reason it's getting so much bad press is completely related to why Apple was getting sued by a company that made imac clones in the late 90's.

Seriously people. Don't just lap up everything you see in the media and realize not everywhere in the world CAN be like north America. We take up the majority of the worlds resources. Do you know what the 99% look like to the rest of the world? The people complaining about the 1% of the 99%.
Added at: 10:22

That's right, some people don't realize how far money can go in China. Back in 2006 when I went to China for the first time, I was living at Wuhan University and living off 1600RMB/month which at that time was about $200 at the time. I could pay for all of my food/transportation/entertainment and party timez and still have $100 left over at the end of the month. Salary can be lower in China, but your expenses are lower too. I use to buy Breakfast/Lunch/Dinner daily in Shenyang for a grand total of 25RMB, or about $3.50.

 

[figmentPez]

There are some pretty big differences between chocolate and computers. I can live without chocolate, but taking part in modern society requires a computer. There is fair trade chocolate available, but I know of no way of ensuring a computer was made in such a fashion. There are likely other differences as well, but just based on those the most effective course of action to make changes shifts drastically.

 

[Shegokigo]

You still wouldn't buy a computer if there was a "fair trade" version available if it cost hundreds more.

Oh yeah and your reply comes off like:

"I'm only morally conscious if it's convienient to me."

 

[Soliloquy]

Shegs, why is it that in this thread you're going out of your way to try to change people's opinions on something that clearly doesn't affect you?

 

[Shegokigo]

Because it's a blind opinion. One that's narrow minded and self-serving yet they act like it's some kind of "higher moral choice".

 

[Soliloquy]

Well, haven't we all benefitted from people making those kinds of choices in the past? And doesn't the perpetuation of that kind of mindset help lead to a society in which everyone ultimately benefits from these "higher moral choices," as you put it?

I don't want to live in a world where no one takes the initiative to make those kinds of choices.

Your viewpoint that these kinds of choices and decisions don't ultimately matter only makes sense if you disregard the entire history of everything ever.

 

[Shegokigo]

No, my viewpoint is that those kinds of choices and decisions only matter if you make the ones that do. Not eating "Slave Chocolate" does nothing. Starting a local chapter in your city about raising awareness of this "Slave Chocolate" and creating a massive boycott of those sales though? Then you have some ground to stand on. I on the other hand don't care either way because my personal life is more important to me than the betterment of others or "mankind".

I already stated really clearly before, if you're doing it for your own "makes me feel better" reasons. Then fine. Acting like you just saved 100,000 slave children because of your choice not to spend $1.50? Then you're a hilarious person.

*Notice: I never claimed anyone in this thread is the latter.

 

[Bowielee]

And yet, you espouse the awsomeness of Anonymous...

So which is it, we should do nothing based on moral priciple, or do something based on moral principle? I'm getting mixed signals.

 

[@Li3n]

Stupid philosophy? Watch out for myself and fuck the world? I don't see the downside (for me). I'll be long gone before any of my slave chocolate buying "hurts the world".

And because you're the only person in the world that thinks like that your philosophy has no discernible effect on anything whatsoever...

if you're doing it for your own "makes me feel better" reasons. Then fine. Acting like you just saved 100,000 slave children because of your choice not to spend $1.50?

Hey, look, we're playing "Guess the fallacy!"... i'll go with "What is a False Dichotomy!"

What do i win?

That's right, some people don't realize how far money can go in China. Back in 2006 when I went to China for the first time, I was living at Wuhan University and living off 1600RMB/month which at that time was about $200 at the time. I could pay for all of my food/transportation/entertainment and party timez and still have $100 left over at the end of the month. Salary can be lower in China, but your expenses are lower too. I use to buy Breakfast/Lunch/Dinner daily in Shenyang for a grand total of 25RMB, or about $3.50.

Heh, i make more then 200$ because the dollar went down the drain compared to the Euro...


But the problem in China isn't the salary or the facilities... it's the way they threat the worker... sure, it's better then starving, but that's no reason not to complain about it until it gets better...

Really, pools, gyms and all that + crammed shared workers bedrooms = exactly the way communism was over here... and we shot our dear leader.

 

[ElJuski]

man, this thread would be great if people got over the fact that this isn't a black or white issue, and that small changes can equal big differences over time.

 

[Mathias]

You still wouldn't buy a computer if there was a "fair trade" version available if it cost hundreds more.

Oh yeah and your reply comes off like:

"I'm only morally conscious if it's convienient to me."

...we're talking about chocolate that's like a buck or two more than the regular kind. You're being a fucking retard.
Added at: 07:26

No, my viewpoint is that those kinds of choices and decisions only matter if you make the ones that do. Not eating "Slave Chocolate" does nothing. Starting a local chapter in your city about raising awareness of this "Slave Chocolate" and creating a massive boycott of those sales though? Then you have some ground to stand on. I on the other hand don't care either way because my personal life is more important to me than the betterment of others or "mankind".

I already stated really clearly before, if you're doing it for your own "makes me feel better" reasons. Then fine. Acting like you just saved 100,000 slave children because of your choice not to spend $1.50? Then you're a hilarious person.

*Notice: I never claimed anyone in this thread is the latter.

Sure it does. You're helping make the world a slightly less shitty place by not contributing to the problem yourself. Same goes for things like throwing garbage out of your car window. You could say that the littering doesn't matter because there's already trash on the ground everywhere, or you could not be a fucking drain on the world and just throw it out into a trash can. By your philosophy you shouldn't recycle either. You shouldn't give a shit about possibly buying blood diamonds. These are all easy things you can do or stop doing.

And don't give me the 99% of other things bullshit.

 

[strawman]

To say that doing this is the same as doing nothing is to deny the existence and creation of the Grand Canyon.

 

[Shegokigo]

...we're talking about chocolate that's like a buck or two more than the regular kind. You're being a fucking retard.

Sorry I should have said "When it's financially convienient for you". My bad.

Sure it does. You're helping make the world a slightly less shitty place by not contributing to the problem yourself.

You'll never see the results of your "good works" in your lifetime. I don't do things unless they directly benefit me. I could give a shit about the "bigger picture".

By your philosophy you shouldn't recycle either. You shouldn't give a shit about possibly buying blood diamonds. These are all easy things you can do or stop doing.

I don't recycle, I buy diamonds based on cost to me, not where they come from and the only reason I don't litter is because of the fines associated with it. Why? Because again, I'm not going to pretend that if I did any of the above, it'd have any lasting or realistic impact on the world other than to make me feel better about myself. Which by the way, I feel just fine about myself by not doing all those things.

And don't give me the 99% of other things bullshit.

Yeah, I won't hit you over the head with reality, you're obviously not getting it. You're being "financially moral" not trying to make a difference.

 

[fade]

One major problem I have with your argument, Shego, is that "you're only doing it to feel better about yourself" is a classical tautology. Of course it's true. It's always true, regardless of whether it actually helps people or not. I mean, the whole reason anyone is motivated to do anything is because something is out of equilibrium with their world view.

 

[Shegokigo]

The key word is "only". Of course people who create fund raisers and awareness groups are doing it to make themselves feel better, but they're also doing it to make a lasting and real impact in the world. The ones I'm referring to are "only" doing it to make themselves feel better.

@Pez - You can passive aggressively disagree with my posts all you want, doesn't make them any less incorrect.

 

[fade]

But there's no such thing as only feeling good. They feel good for a reason.

 

[Shegokigo]

When did I deny that? The reason they feel good is because of the blind "truth" they tell themselves. That they're having some kind of major impact on the world by not buying $1.50 items. Yet they walk right around the corner and spend hundreds and thousands of dollars on items that do support the "cause" they're fighting for.

Again, if the goal is just not to participate in promoting Child Slavery and they realize they're really not changing anything, yet it makes them feel good about themselves, then I have no problem with it.

I'm rubber, you're glue lol lol lol

Not fast enough Stiney

 

[Espy]

This thread is starting to feel like a Merry Go Round. And not the fun kind. The kind where the kid in front of you throws up and it smacks you in the face.

 

[Shegokigo]

Because it is. It's the same circle argument over and over.

I poke fun at "Arm Chair Activists" and I get told "You don't get it". When noone's reading my posts to begin with. They think I'm making fun of them for feeling better about themselves for not supporting the product. That's not the case.

Again:

I don't take issue with people who do not support something they don't want to promote.

I take issue with people who do not support something they don't want to promote and act like they're making a real difference in the world while being hypocritical about it in every other aspect of their life.

I don't get the problem here.

 

[strawman]

I don't get the problem here.

We know. It's just hard for us to give up on you. If we were you, we would have given up on you after your first post.

 

[Shegokigo]

You're hilarious when you're trying to be condesending. It only works when you're right.

 

[GasBandit]

Here, let's have a peace offering. Can I interest anybody in a Rolo? Or a reese's cup? They're REALLY good.

 

[Shegokigo]

Related note: It's cute how Pez is following me around this thread disagreeing with my posts but has no real counter-point to make that has any basis.

Related note: This Reese's Fast Break I bought on the way to work IS delicious.

 

[strawman]

You're hilarious when you're trying to be condesending. It only works when you're right.

 

[figmentPez]

Related note: It's cute how Pez is following me around this thread disagreeing with my posts but has no real counter-point to make that has any basis.

That's funny, I was hoping you'd finally realize that you never actually refuted my logic. You've completely ignored my reasoning on why buying fair trade chocolate can make a difference. You also resorted to ad hominem attacks, which are pointless to attempt to counter-point, since you've judged me solely by your prejudices.

 

[Shegokigo]

I read. You didn't.

You took offence by not understanding the type of person I was taking issue with.

Unless you think you're making some kind of real impact on the world by not spending $1.50 on Chocolate and don't feel it's hypocritical to continue to use other everyday items that do support the cause you're "fighting against" because it's not "financially convienient" for you? Then I have no issue with you.

 

[Espy]

I dunno Sheg, your first two posts in this thread say that buying FT chocolate is ineffetive and only serves the purpose of making oneself feel better, which was in response to me. Which by the way, is fine if thats the view you hold too. I disagree but, hey, thats life right?

I think the REAL problem discussion-wise is that you seem to have narrowed your view of the "type of person" since your first few posts. So maybe people are just reacting to the base line they feel that you set up that now seems to have changed rather than responding to some of the nuance you have started using.

 

[figmentPez]

I read. You didn't.

Didn't what? Didn't make an argument at all? I'm pretty sure I actually said something. I never said I proved my point, just that my reasoning went unchallenged. It's pretty damn hypocritical to whine about a lack of counter-point when you've completely failed to provide one of your own further than "nu-uh!"

EDIT: fixed a damn weird typo.

 

[strawman]

She's just trolling at this point. We all disagree with her first statement, but her second statement is merely her saying that we're all hypocrites, then defying us to prove otherwise. It's a straight up insult, though she's not incorrect. The issue is that there's friction between the two. She's implying that even if we're having an effect on the world, as we claim, then it merely turns us into hypocrites unless we go all the way to the other extreme of making sure that nothing in our lives cause unnecessary human suffering. The implied assertion is that being a hypocrite is a bad thing, and we should adopt her philosophy instead, that since we can't do everything, we should do nothing and instead live isolated lives, fulfilling only our own pleasure, regardless of the effect it has on others.

Unless I'm trolling her, and merely trying to make her keep responding. I'm not sure I could objectively tell whether I'm responding because I'm being goaded, or because I'm interested in goading. Probably a mixture of the two, and I'm most certainly a hypocrite in this and many other ways.

But I'm making a difference, so it's ok to act hypocritical and work towards the goal of better aligning my actions with my beliefs, though I know I will never arrive at the spot where I can say I'm not a hypocrite.

 

[SpecialKO]

I'm completely mystified at this point...it almost sounds like Shego is saying that I shouldn't feel good about going out of my way to buy household products sold in recycled plastic because I didn't install solar panels on my roof.

The first makes a much smaller difference than the second, but I can afford the first and not (currently) the second. But instead of being glad that I can at least afford the first now and plan for the second in the future, I shouldn't be doing it in the first place? What?

 

[Shegokigo]

Again:

I don't take issue with people who do not support something they don't want to promote.

I take issue with people who do not support something they don't want to promote and act like they're making a real difference in the world while being hypocritical about it in every other aspect of their life.

 

[SpecialKO]

So...then you would consider me a hypocrite.

Well, I guess I have to be okay with that, and simply strive to do better in a more liquid future.

*Shrug* Not sure what the big deal is.

 

[Shegokigo]

Do you walk around, telling people that based on your actions you're changing the world while still using other products that complete obliviate your small actions or do you content yourself that you're doing your small part in a bigger picture and leave it at that?

Because if you're doing the first, then yes you are. If you're doing the second, I (for the 80th time) do not draw issue with that and even say "Kudos to you".

 

[strawman]

Do you walk around, telling people that based on your actions you're changing the world while still using other products that complete obliviate your small actions or do you content yourself that you're doing your small part in a bigger picture and leave it at that?