World of Warcraft: Mists of Panderia **RAAAAANT**

[ScytheRexx]

Druids/Paladins could obviously do it, they each have a healer spec. Druids also have a ranged spec. Death Knights do not have either.

Like I mentioned before, Death Knight's can heal themselves. The process the players used was likely a constant tank rotation in order for the injured ones to heal themselves up using Death Strike, Blood Pact, and Rune Tap, while the DPS just kept themselves alive through similar processes. This is why it took so long for them to take him down, as they had to make sure to keep moving him as much as possible and it would only take one screw-up for the whole thing to fall apart. Ragnaros himself is very heavy in location damage that can be avoided, so if they planned it correctly, they wouldn't have to heal often.

It is one hell of an achievement, but it would not be possible if they didn't have methods to heal themselves, which I mentioned before is the only reason you see them as "overpowered". The healing factor of the class has always been the lynch pin, and if used correctly, can be abused, but would take lots of effort. You know back in WOTLK before 3.3, a rogue soloed Grobbulus? These types of things can happen if someone puts their mind to it and knows their class extremely well.

Again, a DK in a general game setting, as in, grouped with other classes, is not overpowered compared to the other classes he is taking part. That is the crux of it as I thought I explained. If we can argue that DKs are overpowered because of the tools they have allowing them to single-class a boss, then I can argue that Druids and Paladins are just as overpowered. DKs are healers, they just can only heal themselves.

 

[Shegokigo]

Cmon ScytheRexx , you're reaching against obvious facts my friend.

No other tank or dps class in the game without a healing spec can do what those DKs did. It's just that simple.

Also: The rogue that soloed Grobb, used glitches to game the fight and you know it. It's common knowledge. These DKs simply used over powered skills to complete these achievements.

 

[ScytheRexx]

I am not reaching at all, I am explaining facts. The Death Knight does have a lot of tools, one of those is self-healing. Under most situations that self-healing will not be enough to keep them alive unless they plan it out. Again, the issue is you don't see DKs as a "healing class", because you are not paying attention to the fact they are. The problem is they are not a healing class is the truest sense of the term, since all the healing abilities they have (and they have a lot) only work on themselves.

In a normal raid setting, aka you have true healers, a DK will not be spamming Death Strike unless he is the tank, because his runes go better towards other, more damaging abilities. A DK spamming those abilities that make them "overpowered" would make him the lowest DPS in the raid. They have to give up the "healing" factor unless they are a tank. If they could spam such abilities and still top all DPS charts above classes like Rogues and Mages (which they don't, ever, regardless of using those abilities or more damaging ones), then I would agree with you.

I will try to be totally clear here one more time, but you are focusing on them being "overpowered" by focusing on things they can do outside of the environments they matter, using examples of rare cases of extreme skill. Yes, a group of 10-rogues can't solo Rag even with all the skill in the world, because they don't have that healing factor, but a group of 10-paladins can. Should I argue that Paladins are "overpowered" compared to rogues because they have that ability to carry out that setup and the rogue can not? It it pretty silly to argue that is the case when the 10-paladin group itself is less effective then a mix of classes, as was the design.

P.S The rogue used a process that involved shadowstep-ing away from Grob and only attacking him now and then while removing himself from range on occasion to keep himself alive and bandage. Some call it a glitch, others call it an inventive usage of skill. In the end the rogue did nothing that technically counted as a glitch in the code, he simply took advantage of his skills in unintended ways by abusing the patching mechanics. Still an abuse, but not one of a glitch.

 

[Shegokigo]

I am not reaching at all, I am explaining facts. The Death Knight does have a lot of tools, one of those is self-healing. Under most situations that self-healing will not be enough to keep them alive unless they plan it out. Again, the issue is you don't see DKs as a "healing class", because you are not paying attention to the fact they are. The problem is they are not a healing class is the truest sense of the term, since all the healing abilities they have (and they have a lot) only work on themselves.

You contridicted your own point in the last two sentences. Healing class = one who can heal others. Self-Healing Class = one who can heal themselves only. I stated that they can do entire raids without a single Healing class as OP.

In a normal raid setting, aka you have true healers, a DK will not be spamming Death Strike unless he is the tank, because his runes go better towards other, more damaging abilities. A DK spamming those abilities that make them "overpowered" would make him the lowest DPS in the raid. They have to give up the "healing" factor unless they are a tank. If they could spam such abilities and still top all DPS charts above classes like Rogues and Mages (which they don't, ever, regardless of using those abilities or more damaging ones), then I would agree with you.

This has nothing to do with the current topic about the single class only raid, because Mages and Rogues would not be able to do what the Death Knights did.

I will try to be totally clear here one more time, but you are focusing on them being "overpowered" by focusing on things they can do outside of the environments they matter, using examples of rare cases of extreme skill. Yes, a group of 10-rogues can't solo Rag even with all the skill in the world, because they don't have that healing factor, but a group of 10-paladins can.

I'm trying to be clear too. I'm not calling them OP because of raid performance or what you consider "enviroments that matter". I say they're OP because they can do anything in the game, usually alone, in situations that no other class in the game can do. Can a group of 10 PLDs clear all of Firelands and Heroic Rag? Probably. Can they solo Yog 0? Nope. Can they solo Lich King? Nope. Can a Ret Paladin compete with a DK on dps meter? Sometimes. Can a DK do it with less gear and skill? Yep. Can a PLD/WAR/DRU tank HM end game raids? Yep. Are almost every single Min/Maxing guild in the game using DKs anyway? Yep. Those are the things that make the class over powered.

hould I argue that Paladins are "overpowered" compared to rogues because they have that ability to carry out that setup and the rogue can not? It it pretty silly to argue that is the case when the 10-paladin group itself is less effective then a mix of classes, as was the design.

See above.

P.S The rogue used a process that involved shadowstep-ing away from Grob and only attacking him now and then while removing himself from range on occasion to keep himself alive and bandage. Some call it a glitch, others call it an inventive usage of skill. In the end the rogue did nothing that technically counted as a glitch in the code, he simply took advantage of his skills in unintended ways by abusing the patching mechanics. Still an abuse, but not one of a glitch.

The encounter would glitch out. It was a glitch that was fixed. Yes, it was a glitch.

 

[ScytheRexx]

You contridicted your own point in the last two sentences. Healing class = one who can heal others. Self-Healing Class = one who can heal themselves only. I stated that they can do entire raids without a single Healing class as OP.

I was attempting to be clear that by "healing class" I meant they have abilities strong enough to heal themselves that a healing class would cast. I was attempting to bring the two together so you understood the concept, maybe I should have worded it better.

I'm trying to be clear too. I'm not calling them OP because of raid performance or what you consider "enviroments that matter". I say they're OP because they can do anything in the game, usually alone, in situations that no other class in the game can do. Can a group of 10 PLDs clear all of Firelands and Heroic Rag? Probably. Can they solo Yog 0? Nope. Can they solo Lich King? Nope. Can a Ret Paladin compete with a DK on dps meter? Sometimes. Can a DK do it with less gear and skill? Yep. Can a PLD/WAR/DRU tank HM end game raids? Yep. Are almost every single Min/Maxing guild in the game using DKs anyway? Yep. Those are the things that make the class over powered.

I don't agree. We will have to agree to disagree on the term overpowered.

If a DK can beat me in PVP 90% of the time? I would say overpowered.

If a DK can out DPS me in a raid setting 90% of the time? Yes, overpowered.

I don't look at the past, I don't care what the class can do in situations that no longer matter on the content scale, because Blizzard themselves have said the game is never balanced for the previous tiers. It has always been balanced for the current. This is why my Paladin can solo WOTLK heroic or even Regular Cata dungeons, but my warrior can't. In the case of handling those situations my Paladin is stronger, but the content is so out of date that I can't in good faith call the class itself overpowered just because it can carry out that act better then other classes. It devalues the term and makes it over encompassing. Rogues can be considered "overpowered" under certain situations, so should I argue they are? Same with Mages, or Warlocks, or Druids.

That seems to be where we are going to have to end it.

The encounter would glitch out. It was a glitch that was fixed. Yes, it was a glitch.

I saw the videos after it happened, the accounting never "glitched", he abused pathing. Abusing a "glitch" is something like using bombs to raise the Lich King platforms early (which got the guild using it banned), but abusing pathing is not a glitch. It WAS fixed, by altering Grob's pathing system so that it was no longer possible to abuse his pathing in the first place, but it was not technically a "glitch" in the sense of the term, which is why the rogue was never banned. Blizzard calls it "inventive usage of game mechanics".

 

[Shegokigo]

I don't agree. We will have to agree to disagree on the term overpowered.

Guess this is just going to end like fade and my argument about "superior" in the iPad 3 thread.

Our differences is that you only focus on "right now content/top tier content", where I as I look at WoW as a "whole" and everything it encompasses.

That's why we have different versions of the term.

 

[ScytheRexx]

I know, I just don't trust anyone to balance the game over every situation, not even Blizzard. It would be impossible for Blizzard to carry out without further homogenization.

The DK can be "fixed" right now by removing his self-healing and instead improving mitigation. However, that would pretty much turn them into a warrior, only without a shield. All of the issues you have will go away at the cost of the process that makes their tanking unique, yet on par with the others, at the final tier.

 

[Shegokigo]

One problem.... I never said they needed to be fixed. They're just the min/maxer's choice because of their abilities. I'm fine with that, my PLD tanks just fine for what I want it to and my dps can do the content I want it to with a bit of assistance. I don't begrudge DKs for their abilites, I just like to poke fun when people try and say "DKS ARE FINE, L2P NOOB" (not claiming you are saying that but putting things into context)

 

[fade]

You know what I love about WoW? I love that the same kids who sit around complaining about how hard math and calculus are can do these complex simultaneous calculations on WoW stats. It just goes to show how much personal preference plays into learning math. Min-maxing? That's calculus. It's part of what calculus was invented for. Maybe we should call physical properties "stats" instead, because that's pretty much what they are. Then we could get kids to solve complex engineering problems in order to be the top-ranked physics player on their server. Or better yet, make an RPG out of it, and let 10 million players serve as organic CPUs. Just translate everything to a fantasy setting. I think I'm onto something here.

 

[ScytheRexx]

One problem.... I never said they needed to be fixed. They're just the min/maxer's choice because of their abilities. I'm fine with that, my PLD tanks just fine for what I want it to and my dps can do the content I want it to with a bit of assistance. I don't begrudge DKs for their abilites, I just like to poke fun when people try and say "DKS ARE FINE, L2P NOOB" (not claiming you are saying that but putting things into context)

But I admit, I am saying that.

I believe DKs are fine in general, the issue, like you said, is that I focus on them in one area where I feel the balance matters, rather then every instance of the game from 1-85 and all the content that falls under those levels, including old end game tiers. I actually decided to check your claim on the Min/Max and the general amount of DKs in them, and I found that all 25 Heroic World Firsts/Server Firsts, the most DKs you would find in the group was 3. The majority classes you would find were actually Rogues, Mages, or Shaman most of the time, with a sprinkling of other classes going from either 2-3, comparable with the DK.

The first Heroic Madness of Deathwing 10-man only had a single DK tank, with Feral Druid seeming to be the most consistent tank in all the comps both 25 and 10. I am curious where you are seeing DKs fill up all the min/max raids?

 

[Shegokigo]

Apologies I forgot to put the word tank in there.

"They're just the min/maxer's choice of tank because of their abilities"

Figured it was implied when I talked about my tank right after. My mistake.

Also: If that IS what you're saying, then I guess I should apologize for being such a "noob". It won't happen again.

 

[ScytheRexx]

Also: If that IS what you're saying, then I guess I should apologize for being such a "noob". It won't happen again.

That was my fault, I didn't mean "literally", just the more respectful "I think DKs play fine, I don't think they are as bad as you are claiming". I got caught up in pointing out I was calling "DKs are fine" that I didn't specify I didn't mean it in the "idiot speak" you used as an example.

I wouldn't call you a noob, mostly because I want to survive the inevitable day you purge most of the population and force me to work as a slave in your super mines.

 

[Shegokigo]

I will say this much in agreement with you:

I do not think that in current content, DKs are the most overpowered class in the game. For the most part, with small exceptions, each class is balanced against each other (Despite the forum whining on most sites). There are obvious problems in the system like Druid/DK's self healing being so above and beyond for tanking that WAR/PLD only get the spot if there wasn't already a DRU/DK in the mix. As for dps? It's pretty good across the board at equal skill/gear level.s

The place where I found DK to be overpowered is pretty much everythingelse in the game. Soloing content that nearly no other class could. Doing ridiculous things like 10m Heroic Mode bosses without an outside healer class etc. I would have added PLD to that list as well if Word of Glory hadn't been nerfed, because before that, PLDs were just as good at the rest of the game as DKs were. Maybe that's what's needed for a "nerf/fix" on DKs? 20sec CDs on their self healing? *shrug* I don't care, they can stay as they are.

 

[ScytheRexx]

The place where I found DK to be overpowered is pretty much everythingelse in the game. Soloing content that nearly no other class could. Doing ridiculous things like 10m Heroic Mode bosses without an outside healer class etc. I would have added PLD to that list as well if Word of Glory hadn't been nerfed, because before that, PLDs were just as good at the rest of the game as DKs were. Maybe that's what's needed for a "nerf/fix" on DKs? 20sec CDs on their self healing? *shrug* I don't care, they can stay as they are.

I will agree with you there, thus why I think our problem is just how we use the term overpowered in the end. I think we just have drastically different ideas of when and how the word should be used.

They are attempting to reduce the reliance on healing, thus allowing them to make the healing weaker, they have said this, but they need to do it smart because they want to keep the dynamic in general, just not make it so potent. I wouldn't mind a removal of some extra healing factors that can be abused, like Death Pact or Rune Tap, but they would need something else to compensate.

Now to get back to Mists of Pandaria, new screenshot, which shows a new Tauren offshoot. Like I was saying before, they are working on making new race models, and are using the base of these models for NPCs going into MoP. It is very likely, what we are seeing here, will be altered a bit to become the new Tauren model down the line.

Spoiler

 

[ScytheRexx]

More new info, and take this with a grain of salt, but someone inside Blizzard has supposedly let leak that they are right now "preparing" the MoP beta servers for deployment, meaning the beta may be released sooner then expected. The way it will work is that all the Annual Pass players will be invited first, occurring in waves, and once it goes into the final stages of the beta they will start to invite players outside of the Annual Pass.

Again, take this with skepticism, since such leaks have no easy way to be verified.

 

[Shegokigo]

I had strong feelings already that beta would begin by the end of March with a full release by June. There's just too much info/complete zones/models to not believe that. Also I feel this more of a "mini-xpac" than a "full fledged xpac" and we'll see at least one of these per year in the coming future.

 

[AshburnerX]

If it was going to be out by June, there would already be pictures of the box and CD. It's probably going to be more like August.

 

[Shegokigo]

I dunno, there was also supposed to be 2-3 months of leaks of info pre-Blizzcon. Blizzard has been insanely tight lip shipped about the entire Mists xpac and the reason why there could easily already be a box (If they're even going to do a traditional box which is another thing I believe they're going to do away with) but no pictures.

 

[fade]

I suspect it will be soon because of the scroll of resurrection revamp. Get 'em back in so that they pay for the expansion.

 

[Necronic]

The next expansion will be called New Jack City.

 

[CynicismKills]

There's a vid out there of an 85 Fire Mage in Firelands gear, I think it is, soloing 85 Ony.

yeah, here's the video, granted this dude is geared out the ass:



Edit: I should point out this thread blew up while I was looking for this video, and now it's not really relevant at all. D:

 

[Shegokigo]

The next expansion will be called New Jack City.

No.

CynicismKills - Yes there are also videos of a Hunter soloing Alganon. The point is there are gimick fights that some rare instances of a class can solo. The difference is the DK can clear the entire zone by itself on the way to those gimmick fights, where the Mage/Hunter needed a group to clear the rest so they could get to that one fight they can solo.

 

[CynicismKills]

Yeah, a lot of the previous tiers were really turned into a joke with 4.2. The only thing I've done that was still sort of tough was H-LK 25 because there's still so much crap to keep an eye on. I could see how most other things are possibly done with gimmicks like all-DK or solo something-or-other.

 

[Necronic]

No.

We be handing out pandas like Nino Brown!

 

[ScytheRexx]

Look at a new leveling armor set.

Spoiler

 

[Bowielee]

Broken image

 

[Gared]

I can't decide if that looks cool, hilarious, or really, really stupid. I'm kinda leaning toward hilariously stupid, or stupidly hilarious...

 

[Hailey Knight]

My immediate response was to chuckle.

It looks stupid.

 

[ScytheRexx]

Lots of the armors look stupid, at least this one color matches and fits the theme.

 

[Frank]

Robes fucking never look good before raid gear.

 

[Hailey Knight]

Lots of the armors look stupid

And this is one of them.

 

[ScytheRexx]

Chen Stormstout, hell yeah.

Also a picture with the supposed Pandaren female leaked, but it seems a little fishy to me right now, so I am holding off showing it till I see the official one tomorrow.

 

[Shegokigo]

That pally gear looks amazing!

 

[CynicismKills]

That poor Gnome looks like a night-light and that pointed hat on the Worgen is silly. Otherwise the armor sets I can see look neat.

 

[ScytheRexx]

Interesting thing. I was talking with a friend I have from Europe. A long time ago I gave him my free copy of WoW so that I could RaF him on the US and get myself the rocket mount, only ended up playing it a bit before stopping, because he didn't want to buy WOTLK.

Well he asked me to throw him a SoR, which I told him would likely not work before he didn't own WOTLK, but I sent it anyways. He used it and found that it does not just give you Cataclysm, but if you didn't own WOTLK, it throws that in too so that you are up to Cataclysm level (makes sense, since it throws in a free 80 and you can't have an 80 without WOTLK).

He officially got the whole game with no other cost but the subscription fee. The bastard!