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World of Warcraft: Mists of Panderia RAAAAANT

Oct 27, 2011#1

Shegokigo

I'm so ridiculously sick of hearing "The new WoW xpac is Kung Fu Panda, Jack Black lol!!!! WoW is dead blah blah blah".

If anything, Kung Fu Panda ripped off Ranma 1/2 (20yrs ago), Tekken (10yrs ago) and Panderans have been in WoW lore since 2003 (Not the April Fools Joke) but the stories of Chen Stormstout and all the lore that was written in the RPG books (they're not cannon but they pre-date Kung Fu Panda by years) as well as all the information that's been released that Panderan were originally going to be released as the Alliance class in Burning Crusade, also a full year prior to Kung Fu Panda.

I swear, if that's all you get out of watching the trailer, then you're purposelly trying to dislike it.

(I honestly thought only the mindless masses of the WoW General boards, MMO Champion boards and Youtube Commentors were the ones who didn't get it. I'm so disappointed to know that we even have some intelligent members of HFers that see things the same way.)

Oct 27, 2011#2

Hailey Knight

I admit I didn't read every single post of the Blizzcon thread, but I didn't get the sense that anyone was knocking the idea so much as the timing. Example, my post was not "they should've done this before King Fu Panda", it was "that's something I wanted in WoW when I was still playing, but it's not enough to get me back."

I don't see anything derogatory about them being called Kung Fu Pandas though. They're Pandaren monks.

Oct 27, 2011#3

GasBandit

I enjoyed the pandaren brewmaster mission in WC3. Back when I still played WoW, and the first expansion with new races was coming out, I was hoping it'd be pandaren.

Well, it's years too late for me to care now. But this whole pandaren/jack black thing to me smells just like the whole "Oh my god, have you seen this warhammer online stuff? Somebody should tell blizzard they're ripping off warcraft!!!"

Oct 27, 2011#4

Shegokigo

Esc, it wasn't in the Blizzcon thread, it was in another all together.

Oct 27, 2011#5

Chibibar

The problem is that people have short memory

some people didn't even play WC3 or much less do anything else.

Funny thing is that if Blizzard DID release pandarean 1 year before and "Kung Fu Panda" came out, people will be screaming they are ripping off WoW.

Heck, remember when the LotR: Two Towers came out? People are screaming they are "debasing off tragedy of the twin towers in NY" I went like "hua?!!? the book was written YEARS ago with that title"
but people will continue to be stupid.

Oct 27, 2011#6

Dave

I never played the WC games as I can't stand RTS games. So when I heard about the whole Kung Fu Panda thing I thought they were kidding. So you can rage all you want, but that's the association a LOT of people are going to have when they see it.

Oct 27, 2011#7

Shegokigo

Just because they're assoociating it, due to ignorance, doesn't mean I can't call them out on it.

This is just another phase of the race whine:
Space Goats? They made up lore on the spot?! Wow is dead, stupidest idea ever.
Blood Elves? Pretty Elves in my Horde? Wow is dead, stupidest idea ever.
Werewolves? All this bullshit is happening because of the Twilight and Furry Fans. Wow is dead, stupidest idea ever.
Goblins a Horde faction? They spent all these years making goblins a neutral race and fuck it up now? Wow is dead, stupidest idea ever.

Pandas? Stupid Jack Black movie bullshit. Wow is dead, stupidest idea ever.

Oct 27, 2011#8

sixpackshaker

Just think how many chances that Blizz had to beat Dreamworks to the punch.

Another problem is that the non-Trolls spouting the KFPanda crap are just high school kids that have no idea of history (of any kind.)

Oct 27, 2011#9

Shegokigo

Amazing write-up on the subject, with less "angry hate rant"
http://wow.joystiq.com/2011/10/24/5-reasons-you-should-love-mists-of-pandaria/

5. Pandaria

Most players that have been around since The Burning Crusade can recall what they felt when they first stepped through the Dark Portal. It was something akin to butterflies in the stomach, fear, and utter excitement. Where we were going was someplace new, we knew that much -- but we had no idea what to expect when we took those first few steps. Pandaria represents an Azeroth we have never, ever seen before. It is a wholly new concept, with all-new, vividly different terrain.

Cataclysm gave us a lot of new vistas with Deathwing's transformation of the world -- but at the end of the day, it was still Azeroth. Pandaria, on the other hand, presents us with someplace so completely foreign that we have no idea what to expect. And we still don't. The starting zone is a wandering island on the back of a turtle. Is that what Pandaria looks like? Nope! There were shots here and there of the different areas of the new continent, and it looks absolutely gorgeous. But there are also parts of that continent that we haven't seen yet.

4. Pandaren

Remember when the Draenei were announced as the second race for The Burning Crusade, and everyone scratched their heads and said, "What is that? Space goats? You're giving us space goats, really?" What did we get out of that experience? We got a race of alien creatures that we'd never seen before, with a story that ended up being so ultimately compelling that we were (and still are) annoyed that their story was not explored further.

Here, we have a race that was previously a tongue-in-cheek joke. Now they are not. Pandaren have been fleshed out a little here and there in the RPG books -- I've covered that before in Know Your Lore. We do know, however, that not everything in those RPG books is considered canon; they may have an entirely different history than what the RPG source books spelled out.

Beyond that, you should see the level of detail on these guys. The facial expressions are absolutely enchanting, the body movements are well constructed and fluid, and the models themselves are utterly polished. There are not any female Pandaren yet -- but that's OK. That'll come with time. If they're anywhere near the level of detail of the male Pandaren, it's going to be fantastic.

3. New talent system

Remember once upon a time when you didn't have to think about where to put your talents, you just looked up the best spec online, plunked the points in and called it a day? Guess what? That's utterly boring. There is nothing engaging about that process whatsoever, unless the website with the cookie-cutter build also happens to have an entertaining article or two to look at while you are plunking in points.

The new system is drastically different than anything we've seen before. Choosing between talent perks is going to take thought. Are some specs going to be better than others? Maybe. We won't know until we see it all finalized.

Is it different and new? Absolutely. Why would Blizzard want to give us the same old thing, when we aren't happy with the same old thing? The old talent trees were clonky, unwieldy, and they just didn't work in a fluid and fun fashion. That's what playing a game is supposed to be about -- fun. If it's not fun, why play it, right?

2. New lore

Maybe this isn't as high on everyone's priority list as it is mine. Some people care about the story; others don't. But the core of World of Warcraft has always been the heart at the center of the stories that play out as you're wandering around the world. People have been saying for quite some time that they would like to see the world move on from addressing old topics that happened back in the earlier Warcraft games. This is exactly that. We aren't addressing anything old. There isn't a Lich King or Illidan or Kael'thas to wonder about, and the Aspects haven't even been mentioned.

This is brand new stuff, guys. This is the new frontier. We are the big damn heroes who mopped up what the world threw at us from the past, and now we are moving into the future. With that future come new stories and lore -- and new obstacles to overcome. We aren't addressing the old storylines anymore because they've been taken care of. Remember when Warcraft III came out and how the story was fresh, and new, and interesting? We get to relive that feeling again. I don't know about you, but it excites me to think about what kind of new things we are going to see.

And the #1 reason you should love the new expansion:

1. The unknown

Yeah, you heard me right. Everyone is looking at what was announced and saying that it isn't thrilling or particularly exciting. Guys, you are calling the glass half empty here and turning away in disgust. This is where the tinfoil hat work that I do comes into play. I don't look at what I'm being told, half the time -- I look at what I'm not being told. And guess what? There is a ton of stuff here that we simply have not been told yet. Blizzard bombarded us with information about new talent systems. It let us play through the starting zone of the new race. It told us about the pet battle system. But what didn't Blizzard tell us?

For example, let's look at the monk class. First off -- guys, this class is a blast to play. There is no auto-attack. Every time you push a button, your character does something. You don't get to sit there and do nothing while your character idly whacks away at something; you are engaging with the world. It's unique, new and utterly different -- and that's what makes it fun! But beyond that, the monks themselves perform all kinds of fancy new moves. They have cool stances and moves that I've never seen before. They roll.

Now think about that for a minute. Every race can be a monk, except for Goblins and Worgen -- the two newest, freshest, most detailed character models and skeletons that have come out. What do you think is going to have to happen in order for your Gnome, Dwarf, Human, Night Elf, Draenei, Troll, Orc, Tauren, Forsaken, or Blood Elf to be able to perform those kinds of acrobatics?

You following me?

Let's look at previous expansions. In The Burning Crusade, the first expansion, the trailer made it emphatically clear that Illidan was the big boss of the expansion and we'd be killing him. Then we got Kil'jaeden added in at the end, which was pretty unexpected and cool. In Wrath of the Lich King, we knew from the second the expansion was announced who the big, bad guy was going to be. In Cataclysm, it was utterly clear who the final boss was going to be, because he's the one that caused the cataclysm in the first place.

When you are reading a book and the villain is known from the get-go, how fun is it to read that book? When you're playing a game, how fun is it to know who the final boss is going to be? Let's go back a step further and look at vanilla. We knew Onyxia was a bad guy; it was pointed out in questing. We knew Ragnaros and the Molten Core were coming into play. When they announced Blackwing Lair, everyone was frothing at the mouth with excitement, thinking they were going to wield an Ashbringer because there were hints thrown in implying that they might find it there.

When AQ-40 came into play, we were blindsided. What was this strange temple, who were the Aqir, what the heck was C'thun? We had no idea. We didn't know what we were in for. The lead-up event, the final payoff, all that lurking through the depths of Ahn'Qiraj and finally seeing what the heck that thing looked like -- that was where the excitement played in. It was the unknown that kept us guessing -- and guessing games are fun.

Do you know why we don't have a big, bad boss? Because Blizzard hasn't given us one yet. And it's not going to. Every previous expansion, we've known exactly what we were getting into from the moment we saw the trailer, and we knew what we were going to be doing every step of the way. Everything we played through in The Burning Crusade led up to Illidan's defeat. Everything in Wrath led us to the Lich King. We knew we were going there. There was no mystery, and there was no excitement.

If you take away the mystery, the fun ceases to exist. That's what's been missing with every expansion to date. That's why expansions get boring at the end, because we know it is coming to an end, and we know how it is going to end, and we are bored because we know it.

Do we know what's coming? No. Is the glass half empty? If you want to look at it that way. The way I'm looking at it is that it's a glass half full. What we have been presented with is what we have been missing for three expansions -- the sense of mystery and wonder that we had in classic WoW. That excitement that was prevalent with every step we forged through the new and entirely alien world of Azeroth, a world we hadn't seen before, a world where we had no idea what to expect. Guys, we are getting back the awe and wonder of those first days of World of Warcraft.

Oct 27, 2011#10

fade

Boy I remember the first time I stepped through the Dark Portal. I thought, "Gee, I hope this is the end of 'Kill X of Y' missions", only to have the first zone consist of basically nothing but kill X of Y missions.

Oct 27, 2011#11

Dave

God damn it. How long does that special go where you buy WoW and get Diablo III?

Oct 27, 2011#12

Shegokigo

The Annual Pass Diablo 3 deal is supposedly a limited time offer. They nailed it when they said if you buy the Diablo Collector's edition, the extra $$$ you spend will be put toward 4 months of WoW time.

Fade said:
Boy I remember the first time I stepped through the Dark Portal. I thought, "Gee, I hope this is the end of 'Kill X of Y' missions", only to have the first zone consist of basically nothing but kill X of Y missions.

Then you don't want to play ANY MMO. The problem isn't with "WoW".

Oct 27, 2011#13

Chibibar

Shegokigo said:
The Annual Pass Diablo 3 deal is supposedly a limited time offer. They nailed it when they said if you buy the Diablo Collector's edition, the extra $$$ you spend will be put toward 4 months of WoW time.

Then you don't want to play ANY MMO. The problem isn't with "WoW".

I'm going for the CE Diablo III edition

So I'm not taking up the offer for regular Diablo III (I don't play WoW anymore and probably not going back anytime soon lack of time to play really)

Oct 27, 2011#14

Biannoshufu

haha,

Oct 27, 2011#15

Jay

WoW died to me several years ago when they started to cater to the fucken carebears and RUINED MAAAH RAIDIN'.

Oct 27, 2011#16

Shegokigo

If you think that Firelands Raiding is for Carebears, I think you're about 1 year behind on your information.

Oct 27, 2011#17

GasBandit

I still say that any gamer who doesn't give WoW a try and play to at least level 50 or so is doing themselves a disservice. After that, you can quit with no regrets or fears that you might have missed out on anything worthwhile.

Oct 27, 2011#18

Chibibar

GasBandit said:
I still say that any gamer who doesn't give WoW a try and play to at least level 50 or so is doing themselves a disservice. After that, you can quit with no regrets or fears that you might have missed out on anything worthwhile.

Heh. good. cause I have a level 85 Pally and couple of 60s and did my share of raiding.

Oct 27, 2011#19

Tress

GasBandit said:
I still say that any gamer who doesn't give WoW a try and play to at least level 50 or so is doing themselves a disservice. After that, you can quit with no regrets or fears that you might have missed out on anything worthwhile.

I quit at level 38 about three months after the game launched. I wasn't having any fun, and I've since realized the whole MMO model doesn't appeal to me. Close enough? Or should I go redeem my free 14 days offer?

Oct 27, 2011#20

Shegokigo

It's still an MMO.

Oct 27, 2011#21

GasBandit

Chibibar said:
Heh. good. cause I have a level 85 Pally and couple of 60s and did my share of raiding.

I hope by "raiding" you meant attacking other players in their cities. Because if you meant smacking the same ubermob with 40 other neckbeards for 3 hours, I have some bad news for you.
Added at: 17:53

Tress said:
I quit at level 38 about three months after the game launched. I wasn't having any fun, and I've since realized the whole MMO model doesn't appeal to me. Close enough? Or should I go redeem my free 14 days offer?

Close enough. You experienced enough of the game to have a frame of reference for memetic purposes.

Oct 27, 2011#22

Chibibar

Yup. I have done both. And a bunch of battleground too.

Oct 27, 2011#23

Shegokigo

If you don't care about lore, then yeah, it's just going to be "Uber npc #109300 vs 10/25 people" for a few hours a night.

Otherwise, WoW couldn't be closer to an interactive storyline game if it were single player right now.

Oct 27, 2011#24

Chibibar

Shegokigo said:
If you don't care about lore, then yeah, it's just going to be "Uber npc #109300 vs 10/25 people" for a few hours a night.

Otherwise, WoW couldn't be closer to an interactive storyline game if it were single player right now.

Yup. All MMO have grinds. There is no way to get around it. It is HOW it is grind can make it fun. I remember I had tons of fun leveling cause the stories were interesting and I didn't mind playing for hours

Oct 27, 2011#25

GasBandit

Chibibar said:
Yup. All MMO have grinds. There is no way to get around it. It is HOW it is grind can make it fun. I remember I had tons of fun leveling cause the stories were interesting and I didn't mind playing for hours

Until last summer's patch that ruined it, Warhammer Online didn't have a grind if you didn't want it to. I had several characters that I got to max level exclusively through PvP (or RvR as EA-Mythic calls it)... and DELETED THEM and started over to do it again. I think over the course of my subscription, I had at least 30 warrior priests make it to the endgame (though I only kept one to progress through the end of the endgame, which in my opinion was a lot less fun than PvPing your way up from level 1 all over again).

Oct 27, 2011#26

Dei

The new talents are dumb. It will still be basically cookie cutter when it comes to raiding and PvP I'm sure. Outside of those two things, who cares where you put your points, it doesn't matter. People who are hardcore will still cookie cutter their stuff, and casuals will continue to either cookie cutter because it's what raiders do, or just do w/e they want anyways. The only way to not have this happen is to either have so many abilities that you will be constantly respeccing, or to ban all talent theorizing that exists on the internet. People want their talents to MATTER. If they want to min/max, then they will still find a way to do it. And the continued attempts to reduce things down to make it "more interesting" just seems to get kind of silly.

Oct 27, 2011#27

Necronic

MMOs in general seem to have taken a pretty significant hit in the last year. There's part of me that wants to say it's becaue of the recession, but it seems to be some specific issues for each system.

For EvE they took a pretty major hit in their player counts (including myself) due to some mismanagement by the devs and a very low rent expansion. It looks like they might be getting some back but v0v.

For WoW the recent loss of players seems more like a standard thing that happens in between major expansions. After the expansion they get a resurgence of players. But I dunno. Sooner or later even a baby gets tired of playing peek-a-boo.

Either way...it's not a Kung Fu Panda ripoff, that's ridiculous. THIS is a Kung fu panda ripoff.

Oct 27, 2011#28

Jay

Shegokigo said:
If you think that Firelands Raiding is for Carebears, I think you're about 1 year behind on your information.

It's still chicken shit compared to Sunwell.

Oct 27, 2011#29

Dei

Also, Cata is pretty casual friendly really, even if casuals aren't doing cutting edge raiding, the fact that 10 mans and 25 mans drop the same loot, combined with the fact that Blizzard nerds stuff to special Ed levels as soon as new content comes out, makes it kind of silly to claim that it's hardcore. I guess it is for a few weeks, though.

Oct 27, 2011#30

Shegokigo

Jay said:
It's still chicken shit compared to Sunwell.

The percentages say you're wrong.

2% of the WoW pop has completed Heroic Rag. Less than 5% had completed Sunwell pre-nerf.

Oct 27, 2011#31

Jay

STOP BEING SO DEFENSIVE OF YOUR SHITTY PANDA GAME DUDE

Also, Recycled Content is Recycled.

Oct 27, 2011#32

Shegokigo

It's cute how you try to troll. It really is.

Oct 27, 2011#33

Dei

The biggest difference between Cata and BC is the existence of normal and heroic raids. The very fact that people can do content is easy mode now lowers people's desire to join über guilds. On top of that, watching people try to find new guilds after my guild burned out then watching those guilds burn out and making people start looking again says to me that a lot of raising guilds are burning out. The 10 man thing is different as well, but I would think it would lead to higher %.

Oct 27, 2011#34

Gusto

GasBandit said:
I enjoyed the pandaren brewmaster mission in WC3. Back when I still played WoW, and the first expansion with new races was coming out, I was hoping it'd be pandaren.

Well, it's years too late for me to care now. But this whole pandaren/jack black thing to me smells just like the whole "Oh my god, have you seen this warhammer online stuff? Somebody should tell blizzard they're ripping off warcraft!!!"

Oct 27, 2011#35

Jay

If you'll depend foolishly on your "stats" dude, you're basing your defensive opinion on something that you "don't do, nor fully understand". Alright, you asked for it.

Firstly, they nerfed Sunwell a few months before the big new expansion, which allowed a lot of guilds to complete Sunwell content when they were never able to complete it beforehand. For example, my guild on Medivh we only had 1 guild to finish Sunwell pre-nerf... ours. Most guilds were stuck on the Twins or the Undead Dragon. Within 2 to 3 weeks, 7 guilds totally completed Sunwell content and some were working on Kil'jaeden.

Secondly, a lot of hardcore raiders left the game before and during Cataclysm as it catered to the casual gamers. Not a bad business decision since a lot more casual gamers than ever are playing WoW. With less hardcore players playing the game and casual gamers not inclined to finish content, the stats prove nothing I didn't already know and mean nothing.

How badly has raiding affected things? Of the 30+ people I raided with for more than 3 years together, fewer than a dozen or so have continued to play the game, much less even raid elsewhere. Our Facebook group is filled with tales of memories of the good old days and our anticipation of SWTOR.

Lastly, recycled content is recycled. No one gave a shit about Ragnaros. Especially when they completed the content on easy mode. Stats fail again.

Oct 27, 2011#36

Shegokigo

*yawn*

Nothing to do with my points on Mists.

Oct 27, 2011#37

Jay

Very well.

With that response, victory is mine then.

You can go ahead and enjoy Panda Online, I have other victories in this forum to find.

Oct 27, 2011#38

Shegokigo

Delusional troll is delusional.

Oct 27, 2011#39

Dei

Having been raiding since the beginning of the game, gotta side with Jay here. I have no problem with Mists of Pandaria, I find Pandaren to be a valid race option, but that doesn't mean the game isn't heading to casual land.

Oct 27, 2011#40

Frankie Williamson

Saying Cataclysm catered to casuals is about the opposite of true, it killed the game for casual gamers. The raids were all exceptionally difficult. The heroics were all exceptionally difficult. The guild level system killed casual small guilds almost entirely.

Oct 27, 2011#41

Dei

The raid content was hard to start but it also got nerfed faster than usual. Guild leveling killed small guilds but catered to the giant mega guilds full of casuals and alts.

Oct 27, 2011#42

Shegokigo

Dei said:
Having been raiding since the beginning of the game, gotta side with Jay here. I have no problem with Mists of Pandaria, I find Pandaren to be a valid race option, but that doesn't mean the game isn't heading to casual land.

I guess you missed the part where they're eliminating Normal Mode dungeons, added a LFR to keep casuals out of real raids (while giving them no real rewards past some weak gear and basic info). They added a mini-game for casuals and that's it. The end game today is harder than it's ever been and I've also been raiding since the beginning, I was a server first raider and even I know nothing but Sunwell has been as difficult as Heroic raiding is now. So yeah, I'm not seeing the "headed in a casual direction". They're giving alot of things for casuals to do, but the game is definitely headed to a more "end-game" style of gaming.

Oct 28, 2011#43

@Li3n

Shegokigo said:
I'm so ridiculously sick of hearing "The new WoW xpac is Kung Fu Panda, Jack Black lol!!!! WoW is dead blah blah blah".

If anything, Kung Fu Panda ripped off Ranma 1/2 (20yrs ago), Tekken (10yrs ago) and Panderans have been in WoW lore since 2003 (Not the April Fools Joke) but the stories of Chen Stormstout and all the lore that was written in the RPG books (they're not cannon but they pre-date Kung Fu Panda by years) as well as all the information that's been released that Panderan were originally going to be released as the Alliance class in Burning Crusade, also a full year prior to Kung Fu Panda.

Yeah, this is Blizzard we're talking about, none of that means that they didn't copy stuff of Kung Fu Panda...

I mean pop culture references are their bread and butter.

Just look at the UED propaganda ads in Brood War and then at the propaganda ads in the Starship Troopers film. When ST came out here in '99 i thought they where ripping off Blizzard until i found out the movie came out in '97 originally, we just got it really late.

Panderan were originally going to be released as the Alliance class in Burning Crusade, also a full year prior to Kung Fu Panda.

That so explains the needless retcon of the Eredar being corrupted by Sargeras instead of being evil already and actually contributing to driving him crazy...

Oct 28, 2011#44

Shannow

I, for one, look forward to MoP. I have signed for the 1 year deal, and get my free Diablo 3 out of it, since I do not plan to cancel my sunscription anyways. And yes, I find the game fun now, and chaallenging with heroic modes. Looking back, like may of you, I too have played since Vanilla launch, and raided every tier of the game as they came out. You know what I like now? The option of things to do in the game, as to compared what was available then, and throughout.

regardless, this basically comes down to a like it or not argument, and really, there is no right/winning side to those.

Oct 28, 2011#45

fade

How about some input from a casual? I have probably payed for 6 months, distributed evenly from the first days to as recently as last month when Shegokigo talked up the game so much I had to try it again. I am the quintessential casual. I make no claims regarding stats, etc.

Generally, I'll pay for a month, get really excited, and play like crazy for about the first week. Then I'll realize that when it comes down to it, nothing has really changed since 2005. Sure, small things, but the overall game is still the same. The biggest change I've noticed is that leveling speed has drastically increased since the beginning. That, and UI candy now tells you exactly what to do, as if the game wasn't easy enough. I start off like the Benny Hill song, and end up on an occasional beat on an old snare drum.

I don't particularly feel the game has changed at all for casuals. Every change feels to me like it happens for the high level hardcore dedicated types. I'm sick to death of being told that I'm bored with wow because I haven't done the endgame, and I have to deal with boring grinding to get to the fun stuff. I don't understand that statement. You're telling me I have to work to enjoy a game? How does that make any sense? It's a game--by definition it should be fun. I hate having wieners 'lol' at my character because I didn't pick the ONE APPROVED TALENT SPEC (TM), or because I didn't follow the Bible-approved set of keypresses in a dungeon instance.

(For the record, I have several reasonably high level characters at this point--a 65 Night Elf Druid, an 50-something human paladin, and a 57ish troll shaman, so I'm not talking level 10 characters here).

Oct 28, 2011#46

Azurephoenix

GasBandit said:
I hope by "raiding" you meant attacking other players in their cities. Because if you meant smacking the same ubermob with 40 other neckbeards for 3 hours, I have some bad news for you.

I miss the good old days of causing havoc on the goblin zepplins with my Paladin, and I definitely miss the city attacks that used to be launched. I remember that the tram in Ironforge was always getting invaded by the horde and we would have to muster a defense to clear them out. That was way more fun that the rest of the damn game. Then people started bitching and whining and the guards got buffed to obscene levels so you couldn't do shit in the opposing factions areas anymore. Lame.

I played from the beta until just before the first expansion was launched. Never looked back.

Oct 28, 2011#47

Frankie Williamson

City attacks still happened up until recently on my server. The funniest shit was suckering an Alliance in attacking Gamon and having him wreck house.

Oct 28, 2011#48

Biannoshufu

back in the day before BC, raiding Undercity was hilarious and made the game fun.

now? Fucking kung fu Pandas.

Oct 28, 2011#49

Shegokigo

I never realized how much Biann and Jay are alike until now.

Oct 28, 2011#50

Dave

Now it's getting good.

Oct 28, 2011#51

Shegokigo

I had posted this, due to my frustations with the mindless massess at Genearl Offical Forums and MMO Champion, honestly had hoped to make intelligent people understand that there's more to it than a passing resemblance to something it's not even remotely based on. I was "mostly" wrong.

Oct 28, 2011#52

Dave

I totally see what you are saying about how it's been in WoW lore for a long time. But most people don't know WoW lore like you and Scythe do. I would say 90% of the people are going to associate the new x-pack with Kung Fu Panda.

Oct 28, 2011#53

Piotyr

It looks interesting to me.

I'm in an odd position, though, where I'm sick of playing the game alone (done that plenty), and it's impossible for me to get a three-hour block of regular time to raid. I wouldn't say that makes me "bad" at the game, it's just that the game becomes me depending on random strangers on other servers, which isn't that fun to me.

I'd like to play it if I could find regular people that I know that would do content together (and in MoP, it looks like there'll be actual end-game 5-man content, so the bar is even lower with the # of people to find), but I'm no longer interested in repetitive daily solo grinds, and until now that's what's passed for "casual progression" in WoW. Either raid, or do daily quests every day.

Oct 28, 2011#54

Shegokigo

Dave said:
I totally see what you are saying about how it's been in WoW lore for a long time. But most people don't know WoW lore like you and Scythe do. I would say 90% of the people are going to associate the new x-pack with Kung Fu Panda.

I know, and therefore, I educate. They honestly think that KFP was the first time to ever introduce a martial arts bear, it's ridiculous.

It's continued ignorance, after having it pointed out very clearly and concisely that irritates me. Unless they're purposelly trolling, then I move on.

Piotyr said:
It looks interesting to me.

I'm in an odd position, though, where I'm sick of playing the game alone (done that plenty), and it's impossible for me to get a three-hour block of regular time to raid. I wouldn't say that makes me "bad" at the game, it's just that the game becomes me depending on random strangers on other servers, which isn't that fun to me.

I'd like to play it if I could find regular people that I know that would do content together (and in MoP, it looks like there'll be actual end-game 5-man content, so the bar is even lower with the # of people to find), but I'm no longer interested in repetitive daily solo grinds, and until now that's what's passed for "casual progression" in WoW. Either raid, or do daily quests every day.

There are so many, very large, casual guilds that are recruiting on a daily basis. The fact that they added guild levels got rid of alot of the smaller, more "cliqcky" guilds and created massive, social guilds in their place. You shouldn't have any trouble finding a good social group in a guild like that in this current age of WoW.

Oct 28, 2011#55

Shannow

I just...you know...ignore them.

Oct 28, 2011#56

Shegokigo

Shannow said:
I just...you know...ignore them.

On other boards? Sure. When I started seeing that attitude seeping into HF? I had to address it. Not exactly turning out as I expected though.

Oct 28, 2011#57

Chibibar

Dave said:
I totally see what you are saying about how it's been in WoW lore for a long time. But most people don't know WoW lore like you and Scythe do. I would say 90% of the people are going to associate the new x-pack with Kung Fu Panda.

Heck most people don't know much of any lore for most games past 1-2 years (IMO from what I have seen)
Personally I only remember Panderean once someone mention WC3 (which I have, played and finish a long time ago)

The thing is that with recent ads for Kung Fu Panda 2, and WoW announcement. all the "kiddies" players (i.e. 10-15) would probably think ooo kung fu panda. And older people like me who have forgotten the older lore or most of it

(I hardly keep up anymore. if I have a question I ask one of my hardcore WoW player that I know IRL who knows anything of anything. WoW is in his blood hehe)

Oct 28, 2011#58

Dave

You can at least feel good that you made me want to give it a chance. I wasn't going to.

Oct 28, 2011#59

Azurephoenix

To clarify, I'm not in the "OMG kung fu panda!" group. I remember the Pandaren from way back in the warcraft lore.

Oct 28, 2011#60

Frankie Williamson

Shegokigo said:
There are so many, very large, casual guilds that are recruiting on a daily basis. The fact that they added guild levels got rid of alot of the smaller, more "cliqcky" guilds and created massive, social guilds in their place. You shouldn't have any trouble finding a good social group in a guild like that in this current age of WoW.

That's my main issue. I liked my cliquey guild. There was me, 3 Australians, 2 real life friends and a handful of others, mostly from Canada but 1-2 from Colorado. Hell, I'm still in that guild despite the fact that all but 3 of us had quit. Level 11 guild. Never going to get any higher. Boo.

Oct 28, 2011#61

Shegokigo

Problem with cliquey guilds was that people felt intimidated to join them as there were so many "inside" jokes, since there were so few members, most of them had done the content a new member would be interested in doing, while in the very large social guilds currently existing, there are still cliquey groups within it, but on the whole, there are alot of variation in the members and something for any new member to relate to and have fun doing things with.

Oct 28, 2011#62

Dave

Anyone know if they've done something to fix guild leveling?

Oct 28, 2011#63

North_Ranger

I'm sorry if my comments enraged you, Shegs. I certainly didn't mean to insult you or your liking of WoW. I just always felt that the Pandaren were okay as an inside joke, something that happened maybe once or twice... as a race, I just didn't find them so fascinating. And yes, I did play WoW for the sake of the lore and good company.

I played WoW until the end of BC, but the problem was for me that as a casual player, I felt like I ended up hitting a wall at 70. Okay, there was raiding, but that just didn't appeal to me that much. And I admit, the magitech things in BC... kinda irritated me a bit. I enjoyed the Draenei storylines and such, but I just didn't feel like grinding through all of them again to play the end game as a different class.

Plus, I was kinda disappointed with all the numbnuts that got through in RP servers. There were good RP guilds, but it kinda felt swamped with all the mailbox dancers and gold sellers and people looking to cyber near the place where the Human rogue quest has you pickpocket that goblin by the river and such. I just got bored... and by the time Lich King rolled over, I think I just didn't want to be disappointed again.

Plus my computer kinda sucks, so there was that too

Oct 28, 2011#64

Biannoshufu

Shegokigo said:
I never realized how much Biann and Jay are alike until now.

Funny, Ive often though the same thing about you and half my ignore list.

Oct 28, 2011#65

Shegokigo

@North_Ranger: Enraged? That's adorable Ranger.

I'm neither insulted or upset that people are ragging on something they don't even fully understand. What frustrates me is when I explain, in detail, that KFP has as much to do with Panderans as Twilight had to do with Worgens, and people still keep acting the fool? Yeah that gets on my nerves. If you're able to read and comprehend what I'm saying, yet still have an opinion that WoW isn't for you? You'll notice that I haven't posted once in this thread to change someone's mind on that subject matter.

BC was probably the worst expansion for post 70 people. There was so little to do for the casual player. It continued getting better in Wrath and Cata. Some would say it leaned more in the favor one way or another, but it still catered to both. In MoP, there are going to be ALOT of end-game content (entire xpac is endgame zones, with exception of starter zones), while still having ALOT of casual content as well (PVE Scenarios, Large Social Guilds, Transmog runs on old content, Pet Battles etc).

Can't help you on the RP part, the only RP I do is being a bitch when I roll over the idiots who thought they could 2v1 me just because there was more of them.

@Biann: The ignore list you still click the posts on to read everything they write? Then yeah, I must be identical. You on the other hand, have pretty much become an echo of everything Jay posts. Kind of like that "little dog and big dog" cartoon where the little one would just bounce around and "yip yip" everything the bigger dog was barking. Or is Jay the little dog and you the big dog? I can't tell anymore, it runs together too much.

Oct 28, 2011#66

Biannoshufu

Nah, they're on ignore, and you're not. My above remark was formed before I had the luxury of putting them into ignore.

And yeah, watching you get frustrated over this is funny.

Oct 28, 2011#67

Shannow

Biannoshufu said:
Funny, Ive often though the same thing about you and half my ignore list.

Biannoshufu said:
And yeah, watching you get frustrated over this is funny.

Oct 28, 2011#68

Shegokigo

Biannoshufu said:
Nah, they're on ignore, and you're not. My above remark was formed before I had the luxury of putting them into ignore.

And yeah, watching you get frustrated over this is funny.

Damnit woman, I'm trying to make it look like I'm frustrating you and it's failing miserably! Just when I think I know it all, it seems I still have much to learn.

Oct 28, 2011#69

Shannow

Shegokigo said:
@Biann: The ignore list you still click the posts on to read everything they write? Then yeah, I must be identical. You on the other hand, have pretty much become an echo of everything Jay posts. Kind of like that "little dog and big dog" cartoon where the little one would just bounce around and "yip yip" everything the bigger dog was barking. Or is Jay the little dog and you the big dog? I can't tell anymore, it runs together too much.

Also known as this old thing:

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/bigdogmetoo.htm

Oct 28, 2011#70

Biannoshufu

Shegokigo said:
Damnit woman, I'm trying to make it look like I'm frustrating you and it's failing miserably! Just when I think I know it all, it seems I still have much to learn.

side note: i wasn't actually aiming to troll you, but I honestly do think the argument of "KFP vs Panderan came first" is besides the point, and my point is that I just don't "care" anymore about WoW because of things that happened long before this, and in light of that, MOP just seems like they are phoning it in from an earnings call. And sure Panderia came first, but branding $ beat Blizzard to the punch.

In the end though, why does it matter if we disagree with you? This should not be frustrating you at all. Play game, have fun, panties, ??? profit. etc.

Oct 28, 2011#71

GasBandit

Tesla invented the radio, Marconi gets remembered for it because he monetized it.

Oct 28, 2011#72

Shegokigo

@Biann - You know what's funny, I have no idea why I've been on such a crusade to correct the idiots. I didn't do it with BC or Cata, no idea why I'm trying now. I guess since the game has grown exponetially since then, there are alot more vocal idiots than back then, and with them flooding more and more message boards I was finally at my teetering point.

I think what prompted me to post this thread here at all, was that I was starting to see some of that "mindlessness" seeping into posts here and I just felt that I could ACTUALLY reach people here before it overflowed.

Speaking of panties, I had one of my favorites (that are no longer made) rip last night. Granted it was ripped in a good way, but none the less frustrating after seeing them this morning.

Oct 28, 2011#73

Biannoshufu

GasBandit said:
Tesla invented the radio, Marconi gets remembered for it because he monetized it.

who?

Oct 28, 2011#74

GasBandit

Biannoshufu said:
who?

Guglielmo Marconi (Italian pronunciation: [ɡuʎˈʎɛːlmo marˈkoːni]; 25 April 1874– 20 July 1937) was an Italian inventor, known as the father of long distance radio transmission and for his development of Marconi's law and a radio telegraph system. Marconi is often credited as the inventor of radio, and indeed he shared the 1909 Nobel Prize in Physics with Karl Ferdinand Braun "in recognition of their contributions to the development of wireless telegraphy". Much of Marconi's work in radio transmission was built upon previous experimentation and the commercial exploitation of ideas by others such as Hertz, Maxwell, Faraday, Popov, Lodge,Fessenden, Stone, Bose, and Tesla. As an entrepreneur, businessman, and founder of the The Wireless Telegraph & Signal Company in 1897, Marconi was more successful than any other because of his ability to commercialize radio and its associated equipment. In 1924, he was ennobled as Marchese Marconi.

Oct 28, 2011#75

Biannoshufu

Shegokigo said:
I think what prompted me to post this thread here at all, was that I was starting to see some of that "mindlessness" seeping into posts here and I just felt that I could ACTUALLY reach people here before it overflowed.

Speaking of panties, I had one of my favorites (that are no longer made) rip last night. Granted it was ripped in a good way, but none the less frustrating after seeing them this morning.

And see, instead of "correcting" them, I silence them. Cause really, if they are idiots in the truest sense correction is futile.

As to your last point? Brilliant post. You learn fast, young grasshopper.

@Gas, Ah, thanks.

Oct 28, 2011#76

ScytheRexx

Interesting thread. I have a similar issue with how many people are seeing the game and going "LOL KFP!", but even I have to admit that Blizzard is not helping the situation. One look at the racials they chose for the Pandaren even made me think "Po", like the Bouncy and various eating and cooking racials. If Blizzard did some light changes to the aesthetic and racials, many people wouldn't be jumping on the similarity. Like Dave implied, many of the players in WoW, this will be the first time they see the Pandaren other then the little pet monk.

When it comes to the difficulty argument. Let me be straight here based on what I know. The exodus of players we saw in Cataclysm was not hardcore players that would be in raids. Cataclysm, by the standards set in WOTLK, was more difficult and required more effort to move into the endgame. Mike Morhaime admitted to the fans that they made the entry level of Cataclysm overly difficult, which caused players to log on without any idea what they wanted to do because they didn't want to throw themselves at dungeons due to high chances of wiping. The lack of decent dailies until Molten Front was added didn't help matters. You may not notice these issues now, as they have lowered the difficulty and new forms of gear are becoming open, but it was a big issue at release, when Blizzard saw the highest amount of casual unsubscribes.

They want to bring back those casual players, thus why they are massively increasing the end-game progression options in MoP. You can now get "gear points" from dungeons, raids, and dailies. They are adding a Raid Finder that will allow you to queue up for raid battles at a level easier then the normal raids and cut into shorter durations. You will have pet battles or scenarios. They will still obviously have PVP options, and are even promoting a bit of World PVP on Pandaria. For instance, we will have a new "Dalaran" like city on the isle, but each faction will have his own, and they will not be marked as santuaries. They are going to want players sieging the enemies city, though they will add options for players that don't want to take part to escape (portals to other, safer cities, for instance). They are also adjusting resilience, so that players have an easier time getting into the fights before they stack up on it.

When it comes to those hardcore players, Blizzard is not trying to throw them out in the cold, and I think will actually be pushing for them to have even greater challenges. First, with the Raid Finder around for the casuals, this means Blizzard can boost the normal and heroic variations of raids and never have to "nerf" them. Second, they are experimenting with Dungeon Challenges. These are dungeon runs where you have your stats normalized, and thus will be very difficult. As reward though, you will gain items and things that are unique for transmogrification, meaning unique looks that you earn. They can easily extend this in the future to raiding groups, maybe even a new form of heroic.

I always split the "casual" and "hardcore" down to two major things. Casuals want a constant sense of progression and choice in what to do. They don't like "cockblocks" due to difficulty. Hardcores on the other hand never seem to actually want a challenge for challenge itself, but because they like being exclusive, they like having those bragging rights of saying they were one of a few that took down such and such boss. It is hard to balance because you have to make the dungeons open to casuals otherwise you form that cockblock, but the more open you make it the less exclusive the hardcore players feel. Can it be balanced? I think so. I actually propose that every raid have a "heroic-only" boss similar to Algalon or Sinestra, something only the hardcore can fight, and hopefully, gain unique items that wouldn't drop in the normal raid. As a casual I would be more then willing to give up some end game bosses as long as the majority feel open to me.

After Cataclysm, I am overall weary and am going to be a bit more reserved. I don't think Cataclysm was a horrible expansion, but as a casual player it destroyed many of my progressive paths and made things I enjoyed a bit more clunky (no easy casual guilds). I ended up finding myself only running battlegrounds because it was the only place I could level, get consistent progression, and always know I was working towards some decent items. Dungeons were to much of a roll of the dice, because if it failed and ended, I got nothing from it.

Oct 28, 2011#77

Biannoshufu

I have NEVER thought of ScytheRexx as a casual player.

Oct 28, 2011#78

ScytheRexx

Biannoshufu said:
I have NEVER thought of ScytheRexx as a casual player.

That comes down to what you consider "casual".

Based on my knowledge of WarCraft and the fact I play a lot? Wouldn't really call me casual.

Based on what I do when I play the game? Everyone would call me a casual.

Oct 28, 2011#79

GasBandit

ScytheRexx. The Hardcore Casual.

Oct 28, 2011#80

Frankie Williamson

I want another Karazhan in MoP. I miss that joint so much.

Oct 28, 2011#81

Shegokigo

I know that it's because I've run with the same group of people for years that I don't have the "pug problems" and as of such have enjoyed the PVE as well as the PVP aspects of WoW for so long. I also definitely went from Server First Hardcore to Casual (playing 2-3hrs a night if I'm home, and all the raids I've done are non-heroic) and the game never stops giving me things to do or aim for.

Oct 28, 2011#82

@Li3n

ScytheRexx said:
Interesting thread. I have a similar issue with how many people are seeing the game and going "LOL KFP!", but even I have to admit that Blizzard is not helping the situation. One look at the racials they chose for the Pandaren even made me think "Po", like the Bouncy and various eating and cooking racials. If Blizzard did some light changes to the aesthetic and racials, many people wouldn't be jumping on the similarity.

As i pointed out, including those type of pop culture references is what Blizzard has always done...

This reminds me of people that complain about them delaying release dates, but now instead of "operation cwal" it's "in the pipe, 5 by 5" that comes to mind...

Oct 28, 2011#83

Chibibar

ScythRexx: sadly no matter what you may have for hardcore, eventually have to make it accessible to casual crowd or they will make noise. Even if that item may take a casual player 2-3 years to obtain it, it can still be obtainable without having to go "hardcore" now that is one tough balance act.

Oct 28, 2011#84

ScytheRexx

Chibibar said:
ScythRexx: sadly no matter what you may have for hardcore, eventually have to make it accessible to casual crowd or they will make noise. Even if that item may take a casual player 2-3 years to obtain it, it can still be obtainable without having to go "hardcore" now that is one tough balance act.

Most casuals don't care about hitting the very end. All casuals want it easy to attain general progression. Casual players like me loved WOTLK because places like heroics were easy and raids were generally more open for us. That's why even as a DPS the longest queue in the Dungeon Finder during WOTLK was 12 minutes. When heroics became more difficult in Catacylsm, that jumped up to over half an hour because few were willing to deal with the stress of healing and tanking.

Trust me, casual players are usually easy to please as long as you don't add serious cock-blocks to their options. The Raid Finder will "sate" most of the casual players need to experiance the raid content and get some "phat purplez", allowing the hardcore-players to get larger challenges in the normal and heroic modes. Added with easier heroics this time around, PVE scenarios, and pet battles, we may be able to get in some of the most challenging raids yet.

Oct 28, 2011#85

Chibibar

ScytheRexx said:
Most casuals don't care about hitting the very end. All casuals want it easy to attain general progression. Casual players like me loved WOTLK because places like heroics were easy and raids were generally more open for us. That's why even as a DPS the longest queue in the Dungeon Finder during WOTLK was 12 minutes. When heroics became more difficult in Catacylsm, that jumped up to over half an hour because few were willing to deal with the stress of healing and tanking.

Trust me, casual players are usually easy to please as long as you don't add serious cock-blocks to their options. The Raid Finder will "sate" most of the casual players need to experiance the raid content and get some "phat purplez", allowing the hardcore-players to get larger challenges in the normal and heroic modes. Added with easier heroics this time around, PVE scenarios, and pet battles, we may be able to get in some of the most challenging raids yet.

heh, I guess you didn't meet some of the RP casuals

this was before Cata so I might be wrong now. Some of the "phat purple" are awesome looking people like to have that for their look. Of course the only way to obtain them would be raiding. I am not saying that all casual would want that, but there will be some. Personally I believe in working for your stuff, so if people want phat loot, then they would have to raid.

I guess in the past several expansion I read many "whiners" about how things are easier for casual to obtain and thus the uber hard loot is no longer a status symbol (which is what really boils down to)

Oct 28, 2011#86

ScytheRexx

There is nothing stopping RP casuals from going back to old raids and getting such stuff. I know groups that 5 man some of the WOTLK raids for gear due to Transmogrification. If they want the ultimate items when they are relevant, then yes, they have to stop being casual. Thing is, most casuals that actually whine about that are just as much of a minority as the hardcore raiders that complain about difficulty.

Most casuals only care that they can log on and have something to do in general, not sit around in Stormwind/Orgrimmar and twiddle their thumbs for an hour wondering if they want to chance a heroic or find a raid group that would be willing to take their "undergeared" ass.

Oct 28, 2011#87

Chibibar

ScytheRexx said:
There is nothing stopping RP casuals from going back to old raids and getting such stuff. I know groups that 5 man some of the WOTLK raids for gear due to Transmogrification. If they want the ultimate items when they are relevant, then yes, they have to stop being casual. Thing is, most casuals that actually whine about that are just as much of a minority as the hardcore raiders that complain about difficulty.

Most casuals only care that they can log on and have something to do in general, not sit around in Stormwind/Orgrimmar and twiddle their thumbs for an hour wondering if they want to chance a heroic or find a raid group that would be willing to take their "undergeared" ass.

Yea. I do like the new way that you can get points/marks/whatever when you cap level to get some raid gear

Oct 28, 2011#88

Jay

Panda starting zone

Added at: 14:41

Shegokigo said:
@Biann: The ignore list you still click the posts on to read everything they write? Then yeah, I must be identical. You on the other hand, have pretty much become an echo of everything Jay posts. Kind of like that "little dog and big dog" cartoon where the little one would just bounce around and "yip yip" everything the bigger dog was barking. Or is Jay the little dog and you the big dog? I can't tell anymore, it runs together too much.

LOL

Well you sound just like Jiarn.

Oct 28, 2011#89

sixpackshaker

Just think, 30 minutes after launch, there will be more Pandarens on your server than actual Pandas.

Oct 28, 2011#90

Dave

It'll be a great time to roll a new toon in an old area. Or a Pandaren Death Knight.

Oct 28, 2011#91

Shegokigo

Jay said:
LOL

Well you sound just like Jiarn.

We're related and grew up together, what's your excuse? If you couldn't figure it out, I was ribbing Biann, I wouldn't put her in the same category as you. Two completely different beasts. Dunno what's gotten under your ass recently but it's not helping keep the few people that still like you around.

Dave said:
It'll be a great time to roll a new toon in an old area. Or a Pandaren Death Knight.

Pandereans cannot be Death Knights, Warlocks, Druid, or Paladins. They gave reason for the DKs, Druids and Locks, but not for the Paladin. Which is retarded because only having two options for Paladin on Horde side is ridiculous.

Oct 28, 2011#92

ScytheRexx

Dave said:
It'll be a great time to roll a new toon in an old area. Or a Pandaren Death Knight.

Pandaren can't be Death Knights, Blizzard couldn't figure out how to make it work from a story perspective like they did with the Worgen and Goblins, so they will be the only race without the option.

Oct 28, 2011#93

Piotyr

An all-Pandaren monk guild would be kind of amusing and fun, I'd think.

Oct 28, 2011#94

Dave

Oct 28, 2011#95

ScytheRexx

Piotyr said:
An all-Pandaren monk guild would be kind of amusing and fun, I'd think.

I think an entire guild of Gnome Monks would be more amusing.

Imagine the PVP battles. You enter Isle of Conquest only to see dozens of gnomes punching people to death.

Little bit of updated info on the monk, BTW. While the monk can hold weapons like swords, staves, etc... it looks like by design they are going to always fight with unarmed or fist weapons. Instead they are going to make it so certain large attacks causing you to pull out your equipped weapon so when you do use a weapon, it looks more impressive. At least that is the plan based on what seems to be coming out of the WoWInsider.

Oct 28, 2011#96

Jay

Shegokigo said:
Dunno what's gotten under your ass recently but it's not helping keep the few people that still like you around.

So we're going there now, are we?

Oct 28, 2011#97

Piotyr

ScytheRexx said:
I think an entire guild of Gnome Monks would be more amusing.

Imagine the PVP battles. You enter Isle of Conquest only to see dozens of gnomes punching people to death.

Little bit of updated info on the monk, BTW. While the monk can hold weapons like swords, staves, etc... it looks like by design they are going to always fight with unarmed or fist weapons. Instead they are going to make it so certain large attacks causing you to pull out your equipped weapon so when you do use a weapon, it looks more impressive. At least that is the plan based on what seems to be coming out of the WoWInsider.

True, both would be amusing on opposite scales.

Shame about no goblin monks, though. Goblin Punch would be the perfect name for such a guild.

Oct 28, 2011#98

Adammon

ScytheRexx said:
Pandaren can't be Death Knights, Blizzard couldn't figure out how to make it work from a story perspective like they did with the Worgen and Goblins, so they will be the only race without the option.

A wizard did it.

There, done, story complete. I could write for Blizzard. (but then I'd have to make some kind of character corrupted by evil to be a fallen prince/princess, commanding legions of evil against our heros)

Oct 28, 2011#99

fade

Biannoshufu said:
I have NEVER thought of ScytheRexx as a casual player.

That was also my first thought when I read that post. If you're doing "Heroics" or "Dailies" or whatever other things have special names with special rewards, I wouldn't consider you a casual player. What in the world do you call hardcore, then? I would call anyone who has had a long running subscription and a bunch of 85s NOT a casual player. They may not be 'hardcore', but they aren't casual by my count.

Oct 28, 2011#100

Shegokigo

Minimum requirement for "Hardcore" = 4+hrs a night raiding. Every night, on heroic raiding content.

Oct 28, 2011#101

Shannow

Adammon said:
A wizard did it.

There, done, story complete. I could write for Blizzard. (but then I'd have to make some kind of character corrupted by evil to be a fallen prince/princess, commanding legions of evil against our heros)

Well, really, they just were not around when death knights were being created by the scourge.

Oct 28, 2011#102

Adammon

Shannow said:
Well, really, they just were not around when death knights were being created by the scourge.

Scourge is still around no? Obviously new Death Knights are being created every day; why would Pandaren be any different?

Oct 28, 2011#103

Shegokigo

New Death Knights are NOT being created everyday. If you create a Death Knight now, you are viewing the past when you were "created" by Arthas.

Oct 28, 2011#104

Disconnected

Then wouldn't that mean there can only be a finite number of death knights?

Oct 28, 2011#105

Shegokigo

Nope, because we'll never now exactly how many he created "back then".

Oct 28, 2011#106

Shannow

Shegokigo said:
Nope, because we'll never now exactly how many he created "back then".

Thats about it. And, makes sense for not Panderan DKs. Though...give it time, they will eventually retcon them in.

Oct 28, 2011#107

Disconnected

nicely convenient! ;D Wizards!

Oct 28, 2011#108

Adammon

Arthas empowered one of his lieutenants to travel the world in search of powerful artifacts. One crashed into Pandaria and, unable to return and without access to his usual armies, began raising pandaren DKs to help him conquer the new and mysterious land.

Jesus people, it's fiction; the laws of "WE CANNOT POSSIBLY DO THIS" do not apply.

Oct 28, 2011#109

Shegokigo

Lieutenants cannot create Death Knights, only the Lich King can.

It's fiction, but it's an established set of rules. You couldn't just suddenly say "Well Frodo sprouted wings and flew out of Mordor because his love for Sam is all a hobbit needs to grow wings!"

Oct 28, 2011#110

Adammon

Shegokigo said:
Lieutenants cannot create Death Knights, only the Lich King can.

It's fiction, but it's an established set of rules. You couldn't just suddenly say "Well Frodo sprouted wings and flew out of Mordor because his love for Sam is all a hobbit needs to grow wings!"

Wowwiki Lore:

The original death knights were created for Orgrim Doomhammer by Gul'dan as powerful soldiers of the Horde. These death knights were created by placing the souls of the slain warlocks of the Shadow Council into the corpses of fallen Stormwind knights, the first of whom was Teron Gorefiend. Unlike modern death knights of the Scourge, these ghoulish fiends were not battle hardened warriors; they were insidious necromancers who possessed superior intellect and tremendous magical power. They often favored the use of terror tactics and reanimated the corpses of enemy soldiers who fell in battle to serve them as mindless undead minions.
Most of these death knights were destroyed during and after the Second War, either killed by the Alliance or transformed into liches by Kil'jaeden.
Champions of the Lich KingEdit

Years after the destruction of Draenor, the immensely powerful Lich King created a new breed of death knights: malevolent, rune-wielding warriors of the Scourge. The first and greatest of these was the Lich King's chosen champion, Prince Arthas Menethil, once a mighty paladin of the Silver Hand, who sacrificed his soul to claim the runeblade Frostmourne in a desperate bid to save his people. The rest are primarily made up of other fallen paladins whose souls were twisted and bound to the will of the Frozen Throne [2].
Unlike Gul'dan's death knights, these dark champions do not possess free will and their minds are inexorably entwined with and dominated by the Lich King's vast consciousness. Despite the heavy costs of free will, some powerful mortals are intrigued by the promise of immortality and pledge their souls freely into the Lich King's service to achieve it. (Baron Rivendare is an example of this).
In the years since Arthas shattered the Frozen Throne and merged with the Lich King, the power and fury of the death knights has only grown. Now these unrelenting crusaders of the damned eagerly await the Lich King's command to unleash their fury on Azeroth once again. Unlike death knights of the Old Horde, the Scourge's death knights are not limited to their use of ranged spell casting abilities. However, both generations are equally destructive and terrifying to engage in the field of battle.[3]

Sorry, no points for you. Blizzard's already fucked once with Death Knight lore; they can (And will) do it again.

Oct 28, 2011#111

fade

No, but you could, oh, have a relatively benign character who actually led Bilbo out of the goblin's lair in the 1st edition suddenly become a slavering, corrupted irredeemable thing when you wrote a sequel in which the ring is now very bad.

Oct 28, 2011#112

Shegokigo

@Ada - I hope you're VERY aware that the "Death" Knights that Gul'dan raised and the ones being played today are NOT even remotely the same thing right?

The first set were just animated corpses with the souls of different warriors in them. The current set of Death Knights are raised soldiers of the Lich King that still retain their soul. Also the "Death" Knights that Gul'dan raised required a huge ceremony of many participants even though he was the most powerful warlock on the planet.

Not exactly "some random lieutenant that washed up on Panderia" could accomplish.

Oct 28, 2011#113

Dave

If the Lich King could travel back in time, he could have gone back to a time when Panderia was at least known of. So he then goes there and sets up a secret "DK Factory" or some such. Nobody knows about it until the next (not the one coming up) x-pack....

Oct 28, 2011#114

Adammon

Shegokigo said:
@Ada - I hope you're VERY aware that the "Death" Knights that Gul'dan raised and the ones being played today are NOT even remotely the same thing right?

The first set were just animated corpses with the souls of different warriors in them. The current set of Death Knights are raised soldiers of the Lich King that still retain their soul. Also the "Death" Knights that Gul'dan raised required a huge ceremony of many participants even though he was the most powerful warlock on the planet.

Not exactly "some random lieutenant that washed up on Panderia" could accomplish.

I know you're not dense, so I presume you're just purposefully missing the point.

Oct 28, 2011#115

sixpackshaker

I still can't believe they stole the idea for Turtle Island from Avatar: The Last Airbender...

/teehee

Oct 28, 2011#116

Shegokigo

Adammon said:
I know you're not dense, so I presume you're just purposefully missing the point.

I know you're not dense, so I presume you're just purposefully ignoring the proof.

If you think I'm defending Blizzard to be infallible, you're dead wrong. I've been bitching for a long damn time that Forsaken can be Priests but not Paladins and their answer is total bullshit or that Panderean can be Priests but not Paladins.

I'm just saying, they have valid reasons for not having Panderean Death Knights, and just saying "Oh some dude washed ashore" or "some wizard did it" isn't a valid enough reason to change that.

Dave said:
If the Lich King could travel back in time, he could have gone back to a time when Panderia was at least known of. So he then goes there and sets up a secret "DK Factory" or some such. Nobody knows about it until the next (not the one coming up) x-pack....

The Lich King is not going back in time to create DKs, YOU the player are seeing the "past" when you create a Death Knight all the way to the completion of Light's Hope Chapel. After the event is finished, you are now in "current time".

Oct 28, 2011#117

fade

They should make all the things classified as "critters" become Death Critters. I'd play then.

Oct 28, 2011#118

GasBandit

Shegs, they've already retconned an entire gender into the Orcs because of a dumb novel, if they want to find a way to have pandaren Dark Knights, they will. It's my opinion they're holding it back so they have something else to sell later.

Oct 28, 2011#119

Adammon

There is no proof, only Zul.

Validity isn't, for lack of a better word, valid, when the rules have already change once around Death Knights. Who's to say that now that Pandarens are discovered, the new Lich King hopes to swell his ranks with a bouncing bear contigent. Absolutely nothing besides some kind of 'rule' that you've pulled out of the ether.

Oct 28, 2011#120

Chibibar

well other than "At this time" there are no DK Pandas

until Blizzard changes the rules. The current lore is valid.

Oct 28, 2011#121

Adammon

Chibibar said:
well other than "At this time" there are no DK Pandas until Blizzard changes the rules. The current lore is valid.

There seems to be a plague of missing the point going around. Vaccinations for everyone!

The argument isn't "Should there be Panda DKs?", it is "Can there be Panda DKs?"

Oct 28, 2011#122

Chibibar

Adammon said:
There seems to be a plague of missing the point going around. Vaccinations for everyone!

The argument isn't "Should there be Panda DKs?", it is "Can there be Panda DKs?"

currently, They can't.

Cause the Pandarean wasn't discover during time of the Lich King "at this time" and also the Death Knight were fallen heroes. Up until MoP, there wasn't any Panda heroes during the Lich King story line in WoW.

So.... No, there CAN'T be any Panda DK. again. At this time until Blizzard somehow retcon in Panda heroes during the time of the Lich King to create Panda DKs.

Edit: this is what Shego is trying to say so you are missing the point also. Panderan was just "discover" in the MoP expansion.

Now of course you "could" integrate WC3 into the lore, but not sure how will that pan out (I'm not verse in that so I can't say) there was a quest for it so maybe a couple of lost "panda" could be DK. BUT

Currently all lores are tied into WoW only not Warcraft 1 - 3 lore (some did make into WoW). So until Blizzard retcon in Panda in Azeroth prior to Cataclysm event, then sure you can have Panda DK

Added at: 17:17
anything can be RetCon if done properly. I mean if Blizzard wants to introduce Lizardmen 2 years from now and wanting them to be DK, sure, Blizzard just need to figure out a way how to get Lizardmen into the world prior to the Cataclysm (basically retcon upto Lich King)

The Kobold and Goblins could be DK (I don't know if they could again I quit playing even I did get CE cata) since those are already in game since day one.

Oct 28, 2011#123

Adammon

I don't know whose side you're arguing for Chibi, but you're certainly not helping either.

Oct 28, 2011#124

Mathias

Chibibar said:
currently, They can't.

Cause the Pandarean wasn't discover during time of the Lich King "at this time" and also the Death Knight were fallen heroes. Up until MoP, there wasn't any Panda heroes during the Lich King story line in WoW.

So.... No, there CAN'T be any Panda DK. again. At this time until Blizzard somehow retcon in Panda heroes during the time of the Lich King to create Panda DKs.

Edit: this is what Shego is trying to say so you are missing the point also. Panderan was just "discover" in the MoP expansion.

Now of course you "could" integrate WC3 into the lore, but not sure how will that pan out (I'm not verse in that so I can't say) there was a quest for it so maybe a couple of lost "panda" could be DK. BUT

Currently all lores are tied into WoW only not Warcraft 1 - 3 lore (some did make into WoW). So until Blizzard retcon in Panda in Azeroth prior to Cataclysm event, then sure you can have Panda DK
Added at: 17:17
anything can be RetCon if done properly. I mean if Blizzard wants to introduce Lizardmen 2 years from now and wanting them to be DK, sure, Blizzard just need to figure out a way how to get Lizardmen into the world prior to the Cataclysm (basically retcon upto Lich King)

The Kobold and Goblins could be DK (I don't know if they could again I quit playing even I did get CE cata) since those are already in game since day one.

I'm a blizzard exec. I tell the devs or lorekeepers/ writers, I want DK pandas. Fordragon is the new lich right?

OMG BLIZZ RELEASED NEW CONTENT PATCH -- New Lich King invades the Mists of Pandara. Hell, the new Undead apothecary guy makes a potion of undeath after discovering the Lich Kings secrets from a found shard of his old sword.

It's fiction. They're the writers. The beauty of it is, they can do whatever the fuck they want. If they want to retcon DK pandas they will.

Oct 28, 2011#125

Adammon

Mathias said:
I'm a blizzard exec. I tell the devs or lorekeepers/ writers, I want DK pandas. Fordragon is the new lich right?

OMG BLIZZ RELEASED NEW CONTENT PATCH -- New Lich King invades the Mists of Pandara. Hell, the new Undead apothecary guy makes a potion of undeath after discovering the Lich Kings secrets from a found shard of his old sword.

It's fiction. They're the writers. The beauty of it is, they can do whatever the fuck they want. If they want to retcon DK pandas they will.

No, they can't. The rules have been established. It'd be like the Enterprise doing the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs.

Oct 28, 2011#126

fade

Adammon said:
No, they can't. The rules have been established. It'd be like the Enterprise doing the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs.

Oct 28, 2011#127

Shegokigo

Adammon said:
I don't know whose side you're arguing for Chibi, but you're certainly not helping either.

You're the one not getting the point. I'm not saying it "can't be done" I'm saying that they've set a rule that says why it won't be done in Mists of Panderia.

Anything "can be done" but that doesn't mean that the current rules in place can be completely ignored either. "Oh shit, Frodo started firing One Rings out of his ass, um, because he can, I just wrote that so it's cannon now, regardless of the previous established lore/rules".

Oct 28, 2011#128

Hailey Knight

Remember how in the Warcraft 3 book, the Draenei corrupted Sargaren, and then when they put them in WoW, Sargaren corrupted the Draenei?

Yeah, it's like that.

Oct 28, 2011#129

Shegokigo

Retcons happen in alot of major storylines that are written for years on end. It's to be expected. That doesn't mean that you should disregard everything currently in place because they "might" change it later.

Oct 28, 2011#130

Adammon

Shegokigo said:
Retcons happen in alot of major storylines that are written for years on end. It's to be expected. That doesn't mean that you should disregard everything currently in place because they "might" change it later.

You're arguing that they can't (Or won't) change it based on some ethereal rule, I'm arguing that they can (Or could) based on the fact that they've broken 'rules' in the past.

You're arguing that they shouldn't, I couldn't care less if they did.

The only rule in retcons is how imaginative a solution can I come up with that people will believe.

Or, in the immortal words of Ian Malcolm:

"Life, uh, finds a way."

Oct 28, 2011#131

Shegokigo

I never said "won't ever", I'm saying that established lore has it's place until specified otherwise. You're putting words in my mouth.

Oct 28, 2011#132

Adammon

Shegokigo said:
I never said "won't ever", I'm saying that established lore has it's place until specified otherwise. You're putting words in my mouth.

You've moved the goalposts. I've been saying "They'll find a way" and you've been saying, AND I QUOTE BECAUSE GOD FORBID I PUT SOMETHING IN YOUR MOUTH "I'm saying that they've set a rule that says why it won't be done in Mists of Panderia."

We're in agreement, a Wizard will do it.

Oct 28, 2011#133

Mathias

Shegokigo said:
You're the one not getting the point. I'm not saying it "can't be done" I'm saying that they've set a rule that says why it won't be done in Mists of Panderia.

Anything "can be done" but that doesn't mean that the current rules in place can be completely ignored either. "Oh shit, Frodo started firing One Rings out of his ass, um, because he can, I just wrote that so it's cannon now, regardless of the previous established lore/rules".

You're not the creator of that particular story. If JRR Tolkien would rise from the grave and start writing again, you bet your ass that anything he added to Lord of the Rings would be considered cannon.

Oct 28, 2011#134

Shegokigo

Adammon said:
You've moved the goalposts. I've been saying "They'll find a way" and you've been saying, AND I QUOTE BECAUSE GOD FORBID I PUT SOMETHING IN YOUR MOUTH "I'm saying that they've set a rule that says why it won't be done in Mists of Panderia."

We're in agreement, a Wizard will do it.

Whatever you need to tell yourself to walk away from this conversation.

@Mathias: Yes, and until Tolkien does it, the rules he put forth remain the same. A 3rd party walking by saying "Omg, he could add rocket assholes to hobbits, WELL HE COULD IF A WIZARD DID IT!" doesn't mean it can't be done, just means until the lore is changed, it won't. The lore is there whether the 3rd party wants it to be or not.

Oct 28, 2011#135

GasBandit

Blizzard's a far, far cry from Tolkien. If there can be girl orcs, someday there can be Pandaren Dark Knights. There just aren't *right now.*

Oct 28, 2011#136

Shegokigo

GasBandit said:
someday there can be Pandaren Dark Knights. There just aren't *right now.*

Exactly.

Oct 28, 2011#137

ScytheRexx

Guys, calm down, this is a simple deal.

Blizzard has done retcons in the past, and they always get crap for them. They got a lot of crap when Worgen and Goblin were going to be given Death Knight, so much so that they had to write into the story that the Worgen DKs were those that escaped Arugal and lived among the Worgen of Silverpine (Aka, Shadowfang Keep Worgen).

They are attempting to stick to the lore because they never wanted to give the Pandaren evil classes. They consider the Pandaren to be extremely jovial and not prone to corruption. One of the storylines going into the new expansion is that all the dark, negative energy the Horde and Alliance are bringing onto the island are literally manifesting into shadow creatures. This is one of the reasons Pandaren are also not getting warlocks.

Can Blizzard make up an excuse for a Pandaren Death Knight? Yes they can. The fact remains they don't want to, because not only would they get tons of shit for it, but it also does not mesh with how they want the Pandaren to be portrayed. It's a pretty simple outlook.

That was also my first thought when I read that post. If you're doing "Heroics" or "Dailies" or whatever other things have special names with special rewards, I wouldn't consider you a casual player. What in the world do you call hardcore, then? I would call anyone who has had a long running subscription and a bunch of 85s NOT a casual player. They may not be 'hardcore', but they aren't casual by my count.

Once again, the term casual can change from one person to the next, but I am going off the term as we use it in WoW. "Hardcore" players are those that raid every night, doing it for hours and usually get the best rewards, run dailies, rated battlegrounds, arenas, work the auction house, have 200,000g, etc... They are the people that spend nearly ever minute on the game trying to beat everything there is to beat, have mammoths and protodrakes and frost wyrm mounts and stand around in full tier gear.

Casual is someone like me. I don't raid, I run heroics and other general content which are designed for the "average" player. I don't have a lot of gold, nor do I go out to extensively farm anything. I got a lot of characters, but that is just because I enjoy the leveling experience, which a hardcore would consider a "cake walk". I do dailies because they are relaxing and easy.

Yes, I have met casual players that have not even level to 85 because they only play once a month, but those guys are considered extreme casual. If anyone saw me in the game and looked at my achievements, they would call me casual at best, or a "omg noob" at worst because I don't invest the time or energy to care about being the best and logging on every waking moment I am home.

Shegs, they've already retconned an entire gender into the Orcs because of a dumb novel, if they want to find a way to have pandaren Dark Knights, they will. It's my opinion they're holding it back so they have something else to sell later.

Not sure what you mean by this. Orcs have had females since the franchise was created. How did you think they reproduced?

Oct 28, 2011#138

GasBandit

ScytheRexx said:
Not sure what you mean by this. Orcs have had females since the franchise was created. How did you think they reproduced?

There were no female orcs portrayed in Warcraft 1 or 2. The first mention of female orcs that I was able to find was in a 2006 novel, "Rise of the Horde." This is consistent with the original source matter for warcraft being Warhammer, in which greenskins ALSO do not have any females - they reproduce through fungal budding, the spores released when an orc suffers physical trauma.

Oct 28, 2011#139

Hailey Knight

GasBandit said:
There were no female orcs portrayed in Warcraft 1 or 2. The first mention of female orcs that I was able to find was in a 2006 novel, "Rise of the Horde." This is consistent with the original source matter for warcraft being Warhammer, in which greenskins ALSO do not have any females - they reproduce through fungal budding, the spores released when an orc suffers physical trauma.

That novel post-dates WoW (2004) which had female orcs as a starting option.

Oct 28, 2011#140

ScytheRexx

GasBandit said:
There were no female orcs portrayed in Warcraft 1 or 2. The first mention of female orcs that I was able to find was in a 2006 novel, "Rise of the Horde." This is consistent with the original source matter for warcraft being Warhammer, in which greenskins ALSO do not have any females - they reproduce through fungal budding, the spores released when an orc suffers physical trauma.

You are wrong on most counts.

First, you are correct about Warhammer being the original basis of WarCraft. However, Blizzard needed to make sure that when the deal was cancelled for them to make the Warhammer game, that they could come up with a story that allowed them to utilize the assets they had while not getting sued. Much of this was changing the entire method at which the orcs existed.

Second, you are wrong on both counts involving orc females. The first orc female to appear in WarCraft was shown in WarCraft 1. Her name was Grizelda, and she was the daughter of Blackhand, the leader of the orcs at the time. There is a mission that involves killing her, because she ran off to be with her love, the ogre renegade named Turok.
We also had Garona, a female half-orc that showed the orcs and humans (later retconned to Draenei due to timeline changes) were able to sire children together. You would know both of these things if you played WarCraft 1.

Even taking that into account, you are also incorrect about the novel. Rise of the Horde was released in 2006, which is well after the release of Lord of the Clans in 2001. Lord of the Clans started with the story of Thrall's birth at the hand of Durotan and Draka, a orc couple that was exiled into the Alterac Mountains with their clan, the Frostwolves. That was the first novelization appearance of the female orc in the series.

Sorry Gas, but you are mistaken.

Oct 28, 2011#141

Jay

That was an excellent post.

memes-post-in-a-forum-discussion-agree-with-someone.jpg

Oct 28, 2011#142

Shannow

fade said:
No, but you could, oh, have a relatively benign character who actually led Bilbo out of the goblin's lair in the 1st edition suddenly become a slavering, corrupted irredeemable thing when you wrote a sequel in which the ring is now very bad.

What was benign about a character who made a deal to eat Bilbo if he didnt win the riddle contest, and then, when he lost, tried to sneak off to get the ring to go invisible and then kill and eat him?
Added at: 21:23

Jay said:
That was an excellent post.

View attachment 3224

Also, agreed.

Oct 29, 2011#143

@Li3n

ScytheRexx said:
Second, you are wrong on both counts involving orc females. The first orc female to appear in WarCraft was shown in WarCraft 1. Her name was Grizelda, and she was the daughter of Blackhand, the leader of the orcs at the time. There is a mission that involves killing her, because she ran off to be with her love, the ogre renegade named Turok.
We also had Garona, a female half-orc that showed the orcs and humans (later retconned to Draenei due to timeline changes) were able to sire children together. You would know both of these things if you played WarCraft 1.

Even taking that into account, you are also incorrect about the novel. Rise of the Horde was released in 2006, which is well after the release of Lord of the Clans in 2001. Lord of the Clans started with the story of Thrall's birth at the hand of Durotan and Draka, a orc couple that was exiled into the Alterac Mountains with their clan, the Frostwolves. That was the first novelization appearance of the female orc in the series.

Sorry Gas, but you are mistaken.

Also, the Last Guardian features Garona,a nd it came out before Rise of the Horde too...
Added at: 10:25

Shannow said:
What was benign about a character who made a deal to eat Bilbo if he didnt win the riddle contest, and then, when he lost, tried to sneak off to get the ring to go invisible and then kill and eat him?

I don't remember it very well, but i'm pretty sure after LotR was in th works Hobbit was slightly altered in that scene....

Yep, it was right the 2nd edition printing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_hobbit#Revisions

But unlike some of the stuff Blizzard's been pulling the changes are small and explained in universe... the proper way for a retcon to happen.

Oct 29, 2011#144

Hailey Knight

I think they did it properly in The Hobbit/LOTR as well, in that the first version of The Hobbit is based on how Bilbo told it originally, and then he later told the truth about what happened, which is the second version of The Hobbit. They mention this more than once in LOTR.

Oct 29, 2011#145

Shannow

I have to wonder...were you a kid back then who read the original hobbit, or a nerd later on who gained knowledge of the fact?

Oct 29, 2011#146

fade

Shannow said:
What was benign about a character who made a deal to eat Bilbo if he didnt win the riddle contest, and then, when he lost, tried to sneak off to get the ring to go invisible and then kill and eat him?

I think you missed the point. Shegokigo kept quoting Tolkien as something that would be odd to retcon, and my point was that it already had been. What I was saying was from the first edition before the retcon that was designed to emphasize how the magic ring had really been the One Ring all along. To quote wikipedia:

In the first edition of The Hobbit, Gollum willingly bets his magic ring on the outcome of the riddle-game, and he and Bilbo part amicably.[4]

Oct 29, 2011#147

Shegokigo

I wasn't comparing it to Tolkien, I was just making a reference to a well known storyline.

Oct 29, 2011#148

Shannow

fade said:
I think you missed the point. Shegokigo kept quoting Tolkien as something that would be odd to retcon, and my point was that it already had been. What I was saying was from the first edition before the retcon that was designed to emphasize how the magic ring had really been the One Ring all along. To quote wikipedia:

In the first edition of The Hobbit, Gollum willingly bets his magic ring on the outcome of the riddle-game, and he and Bilbo part amicably.[4]

No, I got the point. I was actually curious.

Oct 29, 2011#149

fade

Well, then I apologize.

Oct 29, 2011#150

@Li3n

Shannow said:
I have to wonder...were you a kid back then who read the original hobbit, or a nerd later on who gained knowledge of the fact?

If he was a kid in 1937 then Dave has some competition...

Oct 29, 2011#151

Shannow

@Li3n said:
If he was a kid in 1937 then Dave has some competition...

Well no shit.

Oct 30, 2011#152

Chibibar

I think originally the argument was why Panderean can't be Death Knights. Most of us saying due current lore, they can't. then some how the argument becomes CAN Paderean be death knights? They can IF Blizzard change the lore. Will they? who knows. If enough people yammer loud enough or talk to the right people or something, I'm sure Paderean DK will come into light, but right now, initial release of MoP, there won't be because of the Lore in Place

I understand both sides of the camp really. I guess when Blizzard initially release the Paderean race into WoW, at that point, it would have been perfect to retcon any stories to creating DK, but since they didn't (DK is not allow at this time) it would be much harder to retcon them in at later patches (IMO) The main reason is that the progression of the story.

That aside, I guess if we are going to continue to argue over this, we could go with "How can we make Panderean DK by changing the lore?" Now just saying a wizard did it would kinda break the lore since DK player class are different than your WC3 DK (they are souless)

One way I think they could do it is via the time portal (which already exist)

Oct 30, 2011#153

Frankie Williamson

Pandarens being DKs makes no less sense than Draenei.

Oct 30, 2011#154

figmentPez

I don't play WoW, so I don't really care about all this, but I laughed:

Dueling Analogs

Oct 30, 2011#155

Hailey Knight

figmentPez said:
I don't play WoW, so I don't really care about all this, but I laughed:
View attachment 3228
Dueling Analogs

The picture's funny, but I clicked the link and his editorial is all kinds of stupid.

We have the
Kung Fu Panda
Pandarens and we have the World of Warcraft universe which is heavily based off of fantasy genre that J. R. R. Tolkien almost single-handedly created.

There are at least three things wrong with this sentence that I can spot, and I wouldn't be shocked if other people found others.
1. Not Kung Fu Panda.
2. WoW is not based on the kind of fantasy genre used in JRR Tolken, which was high fantasy. Nothing about silly steampunk goblins, dapper werewolves, a portal to another world, shamanistic orcs, and probably a million other examples is remotely related to Middle-Earth.
3. JRR Tolken did not create fantasy, and even if he drew certain elements together, he certainly didn't make them up.

Stupid, stupid--almost so stupid that I think he's trying to get a rise out of people. Those latter two are more egregious to me than the Kung Fu Panda thing.

EDIT: Found another--acting like Pandarens have never been present in the game before when we had the mercenary hero in WC3.

Oct 30, 2011#156

Mathias

Chibibar said:
I think originally the argument was why Panderean can't be Death Knights. Most of us saying due current lore, they can't. then some how the argument becomes CAN Paderean be death knights? They can IF Blizzard change the lore. Will they? who knows. If enough people yammer loud enough or talk to the right people or something, I'm sure Paderean DK will come into light, but right now, initial release of MoP, there won't be because of the Lore in Place

I understand both sides of the camp really. I guess when Blizzard initially release the Paderean race into WoW, at that point, it would have been perfect to retcon any stories to creating DK, but since they didn't (DK is not allow at this time) it would be much harder to retcon them in at later patches (IMO) The main reason is that the progression of the story.

That aside, I guess if we are going to continue to argue over this, we could go with "How can we make Panderean DK by changing the lore?" Now just saying a wizard did it would kinda break the lore since DK player class are different than your WC3 DK (they are souless)

One way I think they could do it is via the time portal (which already exist)

I'm sick of Blizzard making up lame ret cons to make sure they get a DK fit for every race.

This is what I miss about Vanilla WoW. The classes and races made sense. Well for the most part. I still to this day HATE the concept of a gnome warrior being as strong as -say- a Tauren one.

The MMO structure was based around the lore, and not the other way around like it is today. My biggest beef is with the Paladins. Just because a race makes sense to have a priest doesn't make it ok to have Paladins. They're a strictly human/Dwarf discipline. I can buy the space goats. Tauren should not be Paladins. Period. Blood Elves had a lame story as to why they had Paladins - that is still lame.

The most ridiculous ret con is Night Elves use of magic. Ok guys, we banished our High Elve brothers and sisters 10,000 years ago for wanting to continue using magic due to its destructive nature, one of our main leaders went mad in search of magical power and turned himself into a powerful demon; and for those 10,000 years we've built a society and culture based around druidism and nature worship. LAWL Burning Legion might be gone - LETS ROCK AND ROLL MAGES!

The ONLY ONLY ONLY class changes that make any sense are Humans- Hunter (cause come on it was stupid to never include this).

I don't understand the above article. Padereans fit perfectly into Warcraft lore. Warcraft was completely removed from any sort of serious high fantasy with the release of Warcraft II. I can understand basing that article's commentary on Warcraft I, which had a more serious, simple plot progression and characters. But the problem is that ever since Warcraft II was released, the series has always included things like anthropomorphic pandas, steam technology, and goofy easter eggs.

Oct 30, 2011#157

Hailey Knight

Mathias said:
The most ridiculous ret con is Night Elves use of magic. Ok guys, we banished our High Elve brothers and sisters 10,000 years ago for wanting to continue using magic due to its destructive nature, one of our main leaders went mad in search of magical power and turned himself into a powerful demon; and for those 10,000 years we've built a society and culture based around druidism and nature worship. LAWL Burning Legion might be gone - LETS ROCK AND ROLL MAGES!

This a hundred times.

Oct 30, 2011#158

fade

I don't quite get "Panderans came first, so they can't have anything to do with Kung Fu Panda." Why? That's not logical unless the original Panderans were more or less the same as they are being described for the new release when they were originally conceived. Otherwise, there certainly seems to be some cross-polination, since the Panderans seem to have a lot of Po's powers and abilities. Just because something technically came first doesn't mean the new incarnation can't borrow heavily from something that happened in between.

DISCLAIMER: I know nothing about the original Panderans. I'm only going on what I've read in this thread.

Oct 30, 2011#159

Mathias

fade said:
I don't quite get "Panderans came first, so they can't have anything to do with Kung Fu Panda." Why? That's not logical unless the original Panderans were more or less the same as they are being described for the new release when they were originally conceived. Otherwise, there certainly seems to be some cross-polination, since the Panderans seem to have a lot of Po's powers and abilities. Just because something technically came first doesn't mean the new incarnation can't borrow heavily from something that happened in between.

DISCLAIMER: I know nothing about the original Panderans. I'm only going on what I've read in this thread.

The original Panderan Brewmaster: http://www.wowwiki.com/Pandaren_Brewmaster

Oct 30, 2011#160

Dei

Mathias said:
The most ridiculous ret con is Night Elves use of magic. Ok guys, we banished our High Elve brothers and sisters 10,000 years ago for wanting to continue using magic due to its destructive nature, one of our main leaders went mad in search of magical power and turned himself into a powerful demon; and for those 10,000 years we've built a society and culture based around druidism and nature worship. LAWL Burning Legion might be gone - LETS ROCK AND ROLL MAGES!

Quotemander Prime said:
This a hundred times.

I will also add my hate to this thought. I went into fits of nerd rage when they mentioned Night Elf mages. And anytime one of my friends were like "Well they were in hiding", I was like NO GOD DAMNIT THE ONES WHO LEFT TO PRACTICE MAGIC LOOK DIFFERENT FOR A REASON AND ARE CALLED HIGH ELVES AND BLOOD ELVES. GOD DAMNIT &*)%&@*)%&@)*%&)@*%&)@*&%)*@&%)@. This went on for awhile. I usually don't lore nerd rage but this made me so mad.

Oct 30, 2011#161

ScytheRexx

I don't quite get "Panderans came first, so they can't have anything to do with Kung Fu Panda." Why? That's not logical unless the original Panderans were more or less the same as they are being described for the new release when they were originally conceived. Otherwise, there certainly seems to be some cross-polination, since the Panderans seem to have a lot of Po's powers and abilities. Just because something technically came first doesn't mean the new incarnation can't borrow heavily from something that happened in between.

The original Pandaren since the time of the first April Fools Joke, were said to be a friendly people that loved food and beer. They would drink and celebrate as a way to commune with spirits. They also had the round form, but were considered light on their feet for their frame. The RPG also went into greater cultural detail.

Back when Kung Fu Panda came out, I was probably one of the few that had it specifically remind me of the Pandaren, more specifically since the Brewmaster is always fresh on my mind from WC3:TFT.

The only thing that I find a very obvious KFP reference is the "Bouncy" racial, because they never said anything in the past about Pandaren being able to bouncy when they fall, and that was kind of one of Po's unique traits.

Dei said:
NO GOD DAMNIT THE ONES WHO LEFT TO PRACTICE MAGIC LOOK DIFFERENT FOR A REASON AND ARE CALLED HIGH ELVES AND BLOOD ELVES. GOD DAMNIT &*)%&@*)%&@)*%&)@*%&)@*&%)*@&%)@.

Dei, you are forgetting the Shen'dralar, which are the ones implied to have joined with the greater Night Elf culture once again based on the information gained in the pre-cata events, and always retained their Night Elf looks. If you forget they are the Night Elf Magi that lived in Dire Maul for the last 10,000 years, and we used to turn in various tomes for head enchants back in vanilla. They were actually used often in player argument that the Night Elves should have a Mage option, looks like those guys won.

High Elves changed skin color due to both magic and cultural changes. When they constructed Silvermoon they decided as part of distancing themselves from the Night Elves, that they would cast out the nocturnal nature and instead live during the day. It was over time they started developing a lighter pigment and smaller frame due to using magic for all work, something even the Night Elves didn't do as they had a much more rigid caste system with only the elite being allowed to utilize magic.

The Night Elves on the flip side were once Trolls, but they went through their mutation when they found the Well of Eternity and started the practice of magic, it was actually magic usage that first made them Night Elves.

I agree that bringing in Night Elf Mages was pretty stupid in the end, and takes away a bit of their cultural heritage. I just wanted to correct a mistake in the line of reasoning.

Oct 31, 2011#162

Shegokigo

Frankie Williamson said:
Pandarens being DKs makes no less sense than Draenei.

Um, why? Draenei were very much a part of Azeroth's main cultural races when the Lich King came a-calling. They were VERY much slaughtered during the attacks on the main Alliance city by the Lich King's forces.

Oct 31, 2011#163

Frankie Williamson

I said Draenei when I meant Worgen. That's my mistake. I guess you could say that they're sons of Arugal worgen or something like that, but aren't worgen immune to the plague? They mention that a few times in Silverpine.

Doesn't matter either way, Blizzard can't get their stories straight often enough.

Oct 31, 2011#164

Shegokigo

Yeah, the way they explained Worgen/Goblin DeathKnights was that if you choose either race, you don't come from the Gilnean worgen or Kezan goblins, instead you're a fallen Arugal worgen or Steamwheedle goblin. Since you start at 55, you never have those starting experiences that would tie you in with those factions. The difference with Panderan is that they were completely unknown to Azeroth until post Cataclysm.

Oct 31, 2011#165

ScytheRexx

Frankie Williamson said:
I guess you could say that they're sons of Arugal worgen or something like that, but aren't worgen immune to the plague? They mention that a few times in Silverpine.

That is exactly what they did. When you reach the "friend" you are forced to kill, he talks about how the two of you escaped the grasp of Arugal and went off to adventure long before the Cataclysm, only for you to get captured by the Scourge. Be aware they also altered the storyline to imply that Pyrewood Village used to be Gilnean territory until Genn Greymane abandoned it on the other side of the Greymane Wall, thus why the Worgen under Arugal would retain the Gilnean accents which in turn are used by the DK worgen.

Worgen are immune to the plague as they are no longer humans, but the plague is not even utilized in the creation of the players death knights. They are raised from the Lich King channeling his powers through his Necromancers at Acherus, which you can watch if you walk around after first making your player character, as you can see other death knights be raised from corpse carriers. When it comes to the Forsaken in Silverpine, that is a completely different can of worms. If you want a bit more information, the Val'kyr were given power to raise from the dead those of vrykul or vrykul-decent, which includes humans.

Crowley learned that when you become a worgen, you technically stop being "human" thus the immunity to the plague and the val'kyr. At the time the Val'kyr started working for Sylvanas, and were turning the refugees of Hillsbrad into more Forsaken. He gave his blood to transform what remained of the refugees, thus making him immune to them being raised by such a method. Quests in Silverpine explain this "handicap" of the Val'kyr and make it a plot point, as they point out the 7th Legion sent an army of all the alliance races minus humans, as to prevent some of their best soldiers being turned over to the side of the Forsaken.

Once again though, the worgen death knights were raised by the power of the Lich King channeled through his necromancers at Acherus (as the events happen in the past before Arthas is killed), and he can raise anyone he wants, regardless of race. No plague or val'kyr were involved.

One last note about pandaren death knights. The reason we don't have them is not just because of timeline issues, but Metzen made it clear at BlizzCon he didn't want the Pandaren to have "evil" classes. This is the reason they don't have warlocks either. They only have rogues due to the Shado-pan, which are are a ninja like clan that fights evil. Otherwise it's all the more neutral classes.

Oct 31, 2011#166

Shegokigo

Priests, but no Paladin. Neutral classes.... riiiiiiight.

I'm so tired of there being races with Priest but not Paladin. It's ridiculous.

Oct 31, 2011#167

Dei

I don't see why races with Priests have to automatically have Paladins. One is a spiritual follower, another wears armor and smashes evil, and arguably requires more discipline. Just because a race follows a deity, doesn't mean they automatically have a military following as well. (The thought of a militant armored branch of the church of Elune seems really weird to me as an example. It's one thing to have an army that believes in Elune, it's a whole other ball of wax to have dedicated paladins fighting in her name. Night Elf priests tend to be more ranger-like if anything.)

Oct 31, 2011#168

Shegokigo

These same races that have Priest, have Warrior, so I'm also failing to see the "lack of militant discipline".

Oct 31, 2011#169

GasBandit

Well, hot damn. I got owned pretty damn hard.

Oct 31, 2011#170

Azurephoenix

I liked it when only the Alliance had Paladians and only the Horde had Shamans...

Oct 31, 2011#171

ScytheRexx

Shegokigo said:
Priests, but no Paladin. Neutral classes.... riiiiiiight.

Priests are considered neutral because they all actually share very different methods of worship that fall on many sides of the coin.

The Night Elves worship Elune.
The Humans, Dwarves, and Draenei worship the Light.
The Tauren worship the An'she, which is considered an extension of the Earthmother.
The Forsaken worship the Forgotten Shadow.
The Trolls worship the primal Loa Gods.
Gnomes don't worship anything, they are supposed to be using the powers as a field medic sort of system.

The issue with Paladins, at least till recently, was they were much more rigid in faith and conviction. All Paladins worshiped the Light in some form, even the Blood Elves stole Light power from the Naaru until their own faith was reignited at the end of TBC, which made them official paladins. The Tauren are what throw a wrench into the whole thing, as they now have "paladins" but based on another faith that only has possible ties to the Light. Personally, I think they should have made a sect of Forsaken Paladins that fight for good but carry a dark form of sadism, since the Light hurts them constantly.

Oct 31, 2011#172

Shegokigo

See, that's exactly what I mean. Paladin is not longer about "divine guardian of the Light". I also have NO problem with that and am GLAD they're expanding on the idea. So then where are the:

Night Elf Elune Paladins
Forsaken Forgotten Shadow Paladins
Troll Loa God Paladin
Gnome Field Medic Paladin.

You can't have priest + warrior in a race and not have a Paladin. It's freakin driving me insane.

Does the vile, murder happy, violent Shego play a Paladin? Damn right. It's easily one of the most overpowered classes in the game (with exception of Death Knight) and can slip into any role required by a raid (Tank/Healer/Dps). It's also insanely powerful in PVP battlegrounds and Arenas. Why am I so pissed off? Cause I'm tired of having this vapid headed, toothpicked bimbo as my "Might Tank/Dps" character taking on Dragons and Demi Gods. My only other choice?

My favorite character? My Forsaken Death Knight. I'd give ANYTHING to Race Change my Paladin to Forsaken.

Oct 31, 2011#173

Frankie Williamson

Healing is so out of control in PvP.

I just leveled a fresh shaman and was doing some pvp with my old crew. I had 0 resilience, was still decked out in leveling gear and I was playing decoy to greedy alliance who see my shoulders and instantly think easy kill. I was dancing in the middle of WSG spamming laugh while 5 people were just open seasoning on me while my friend sat back about 20 yards away (behind a bush she said) spamming heals on me. This lasted an entire minute before someone wised up. We got an easy flag capture out of it.

It was hilarious.

Oct 31, 2011#174

Shannow

Well, there are actually troll paladins, in Cannon. A couple, anyways.

Oct 31, 2011#175

GasBandit

Frankie Williamson said:
Healing is so out of control in PvP.

I just leveled a fresh shaman and was doing some pvp with my old crew. I had 0 resilience, was still decked out in leveling gear and I was playing decoy to greedy alliance who see my shoulders and instantly think easy kill. I was dancing in the middle of WSG spamming laugh while 5 people were just open seasoning on me while my friend sat back about 20 yards away (behind a bush she said) spamming heals on me. This lasted an entire minute before someone wised up. We got an easy flag capture out of it.

It was hilarious.

Heh, what you are describing often happened in Nordenwatch, the lowest level battleground (called "scenario") in Warhammer Online. There are multiple bushes at the "fortress" flag, and it's very common for a dwarf runepriest or goblin shaman to hide inside these bushes, healing their brains out.

Oct 31, 2011#176

Frankie Williamson

My dance/laugh macro is SHOCKINGLY effective at taunting Alliance off of doing something useful. Like 60% effective. PvP decoy is some of the most fun I've ever had in PvP. I'm not kidding, apparently my crew says the win percentage since we started doing this in BGs is significantly better.

Me, dancing, laughing, Earthbind totem.

Ha ha ha.

Also, Thunderstorm in Eye of the Storm and Arathi Basin is the best thing in video games.

Sorry for posting this shit in this thread. It could have gone in the other WoW thread.

Oct 31, 2011#177

ScytheRexx

GasBandit said:
Heh, what you are describing often happened in Nordenwatch, the lowest level battleground (called "scenario") in Warhammer Online. There are multiple bushes at the "fortress" flag, and it's very common for a dwarf runepriest or goblin shaman to hide inside these bushes, healing their brains out.

Thing about the healers in WoW is, if you are decent, you don't have to hide.

I have fought healers that can distract half a team just by keeping themselves alive in the middle of a fight. I lost an AB once because a troll shaman healed himself while dancing around the stables while 7 guys tried to kill him. He did that for a cool five minutes, costing us all the other bases because none of our caps had any extra support. Usually I can handle some healers like priests and sometimes paladins, it's the druids and shaman I hate because they have such ridiculous mobility. Thankfully my wife and I worked out some tricks to really mess them up.

Also, Thunderstorm in Eye of the Storm and Arathi Basin is the best thing in video games.

You think this is bad, wait till in Mists of Pandaria when every druid, whether healer, boomkin, or cat, is going to have Typhoon. I swear, LM in AB is going to be very interesting.

Oct 31, 2011#178

Shegokigo

Shannow said:
Well, there are actually troll paladins, in Cannon. A couple, anyways.

Can't tell you how many Undead Argent Crusaders there are too. Been driving me up the wall since Vanilla Naxx was around.

Oct 31, 2011#179

ScytheRexx

Shegokigo said:
Can't tell you how many Undead Argent Crusaders there are too. Been driving me up the wall since Vanilla Naxx was around.

Like I said, I would have loved undead paladins, but I don't think all the races should get them just because they have priests. We do still need some unique combos, and paladins always felt more interesting as one of the rarer combos with druids, due to the hyper-hybrid nature.

So since I am bored at work I decided to try out the new talent calculator for MoP. I already made a druid spec I am going to loath in WSG or Twin Peaks.

http://www.wowhead.com/mists-of-pandaria-talent-calculator#dJd

Oct 31, 2011#180

Shegokigo

See, that just stinks of "not trying". At least with Panderan/Goblin/Worgen Death Knights being denied, they bothered giving a real explanation.

No Forsaken Paladins? Just a *shrug* and a shake of the head.

Oct 31, 2011#181

ScytheRexx

Shegokigo said:
No Forsaken Paladins? Just a *shrug* and a shake of the head.

Well not exactly, they did give a reason. Basically the Light hurts the Forsaken, when they use the power it feels like they are being burned by fire, whether they cast it or someone else casts it on them. Though it does "heal" the wounds it's supposed to be incredibly painful for them and only the most sadist consider becoming priests.

The difference is that Priest calls on the powers of the Light on occasion, while the Paladin, as part of their design, are supposed to almost always be flowing with it like a righteous fire. A Forsaken who attempts to take on the teachings would be in constant agonizing pain.

When asked if they could get a "dark paladin" instead, Blizzard pretty much said that is what the Death Knight is.

Like I said I still agree that Forsaken Paladins would have been great, but they did put a clear reason in the lore why they don't exist.

Oct 31, 2011#182

Shegokigo

Lore says the call on the Light occassionally, my raiding/pvp life says they don't stop channeling that shit like it's god damn ambrosia.

I'll gladly take a sadist Paladin. Doesn't have to be "Dark" or Death Knight. Also that Lore explanation doesn't explain the IN LORE Argent Crusade Forsaken.

Oct 31, 2011#183

Shannow

I just love trolls. Favorite race since the beginning. And when they said they were expanding Paladin races, I was reeeeeaaaaallly hoping for the troll one, since one of the first Argent crusader paladins that was trained was a troll.

Oct 31, 2011#184

Ravenpoe

I've been wanting a forsaken paladin since before the game came out. It was my planned first class. Just from an arpee sense, I love the idea.

Oct 31, 2011#185

Shegokigo

Shannow said:
I just love trolls. Favorite race since the beginning. And when they said they were expanding Paladin races, I was reeeeeaaaaallly hoping for the troll one, since one of the first Argent crusader paladins that was trained was a troll.

My troll mage was wicked awesome. Raided with it in Icecrown. I'd put them in my top 5 races without a doubt.

Oct 31, 2011#186

ScytheRexx

Shegokigo said:
I'll gladly take a sadist Paladin. Doesn't have to be "Dark" or Death Knight. Also that Lore explanation doesn't explain the IN LORE Argent Crusade Forsaken.

One curiosity, but what Forsaken Paladins are you speaking about? The Argent Crusade itself is not a paladin exclusive faction, and actually allows in many other classes and creeds. They have warriors, mages, rogues, and other groups. The only well known Forsaken in the organization I can think of is Leonid the Revered, who is a warrior, Captain Rupert, who is a soldier and engineer, and Finklestien, who is the chief alchemist. The other Forsaken I remember seeing were all vendors, so we never got to know what class, if any, they were considered.

The most I remember seeing was the skeletal paladins in Icecrown after the attack from the Argent Vanguard, and they actually had the skills altered to say things like "Unholy Light" rather then "Holy Light". They also worked for the Lich King, so not really Forsaken.

I just love trolls. Favorite race since the beginning. And when they said they were expanding Paladin races, I was reeeeeaaaaallly hoping for the troll one, since one of the first Argent crusader paladins that was trained was a troll.

Kind of curious where you heard this, hope you don't mean Zabra Hex, as he learned to become a Priest. I don't remember doing any quests in Northrend that involved a Troll learning the paladin craft, maybe I missed it.

The only known troll paladins in lore were not really paladins, but a sect of trolls in the past called the Freethinkers, who stood up to their faith and convictions even when the rest of the trolls went down a darker pathways. The Freethinkers are all gone now, having been killed off through war and strife, as they were considered heathens among the trolls, but the Zandalar honored them for their strength and bravery when facing certain death.

Oct 31, 2011#187

Shannow

yeah, i know I was first thinking of the Freethinkers, which were a full religious sect of trolls in the empire that went against Hakkar. And I mustve confulsed Zabra Hex with it.

Oct 31, 2011#188

ScytheRexx

Shannow said:
yeah, i know I was first thinking of the Freethinkers, which were a full religious sect of trolls in the empire that went against Hakkar. And I mustve confulsed Zabra Hex with it.

Zabra Hex is still a weirdo. His story as a priest starts just after the Third War, when the Scarlet Crusade found him hiding in what would become the Scalet Monestary. How a jungle troll got that far north, and directly in human territory, was never really explained, but he made the place his home for a small period of time and read all the holy texts, finding that suddenly the Light was speaking to him, and began training himself as a priest. The Scarlet Crusade almost killed him until Mograine Sr intervened and let him leave. He has been practicing the power of the Light ever since.

Oct 31, 2011#189

Shannow

Yes, I know his story. I had mistaken paladin for priest, is all. But the Freethinkers were the perfect explanation as to why trolls could be paladins. but, as you stated, that would give trolls every class, which blizzard will never do.

Oct 31, 2011#190

ScytheRexx

Personally, I am just happy they got druids finally. We went through the original game and two expansions where every single high-end troll dungeon (ZG, ZA, Gundrak) involved them shape-shifting into animals or animal hybrids, and yet they didn't have the one class that is defined by shape-shifting into animals or animal hybrids. It seemed so silly to me.

Oct 31, 2011#191

Frankie Williamson

You know what WoW's missing? A Grimtotem dungeon. Every race has it's evil version of them dungeon except Tauren.

Actually, I guess goblins don't either, but we've been playing as tauren for 5 times longer.

Oct 31, 2011#192

Mathias

Shegokigo said:
These same races that have Priest, have Warrior, so I'm also failing to see the "lack of militant discipline".

No other races should have Paladins other than humans and dwarves, considering the only Paladins in WoW originated from the order of the Silver Hand. The Blood elves stealing a Nar'ru and leaching its power to become Blood Knights is the stupidest thing ever.

Oct 31, 2011#193

Shegokigo

Thank you for sharing.

Oct 31, 2011#194

Mathias

Shegokigo said:
Thank you for sharing.

No, thank you for the patronizing remark.

Oct 31, 2011#195

Shegokigo

Hey, you directly called the character I've played for years "stupidest thing ever", yeah, I'm gonna respond, obviously.

Why do you even bother? You're not even playing at this point.

Oct 31, 2011#196

AshburnerX

Shegokigo said:
I'll gladly take a sadist Paladin. Doesn't have to be "Dark" or Death Knight. Also that Lore explanation doesn't explain the IN LORE Argent Crusade Forsaken.

No no... Paladins are holy men. They'd be masochists, because of all the self-flagellation.

Oct 31, 2011#197

ScytheRexx

AshburnerX said:
No no... Paladins are holy men. They'd be masochists, because of all the self-flagellation.

That was my fault, I was the original one to say sadist when I meant masochists. Work was starting to kick my ass a bit at that point.

Oct 31, 2011#198

Mathias

Shegokigo said:
Hey, you directly called the character I've played for years "stupidest thing ever", yeah, I'm gonna respond, obviously.

Why do you even bother? You're not even playing at this point.

Why are you totally rational in every single topic except for your favorite video games?

Blood Knights are dumb, the retcon was a lame way to get Paladins on the Horde. Sorry. I'm a firm advocate of lore guiding the game; not the cast in stone laws of MMO's.

Oct 31, 2011#199

Shegokigo

Advocate of lore never changing, never moving, never evolving?

Gotcha.

Oct 31, 2011#200

Adammon

Shegokigo said:
Advocate of lore never changing, never moving, never evolving?

Gotcha.

*Blink* Seems you`re just fussy about which lore they change...

Oct 31, 2011#201

Shegokigo

I already agreed that some lore should change earlier in this thread if you actually read my posts. I simply stated why there was rules against Panderan Death Knights and why they made sense. I didn't feel that the reasons they gave for such limited Paladin choices were so well stated.

Nov 1, 2011#202

Mathias

No, I'm fine with lore changing to progress the storyline and affect the game mechanics. I hate it when the game mechanics are what drive the lore. THE ONLY REASON FOR BLOOD KNIGHTS IS BECAUSE BLIZ WANTED PALADINS ON THE HORDE. I think the whole backassed Worgen are DK's is stupid too. Blizzard will find some stupid reason for Panda Death Knights in future patches as well. They can chant all they want about Pandarien being "pure of heart", as soon as numbers drop a year from the expansion release, they'll add more classes to each race.

They will because they pander to the game mechanics, what's easy, and a quick buck over thinking through their story. Blood knights are proof of that. They were sick of the bitch fest of Paladin vs. Shaman, so they caved and gave both to their opposite respective factions. People bitched about how no other class got Paladins (much like you), well, there you go - you have Tauren Paladins that make absolutely no sense as far as lore goes.

Of course I agree with the notion that they can change the lore and progress it. Its their story to tell, but if you're going to progress and ret-con do what makes sense, not what's easy. Blizzard does a piss poor job of that. Example: Night Elf mages. It just doesn't make sense in any other term except for game mechanics.

The story progression and lore is so convoluted anymore that they can't even keep track of it (see red-shirt kid).
Added at: 07:26

Shegokigo said:
I already agreed that some lore should change earlier in this thread if you actually read my posts. I simply stated why there was rules against Panderan Death Knights and why they made sense. I didn't feel that the reasons they gave for such limited Paladin choices were so well stated.

Those "rules" are going out the door as soon as Blizzards pockets are hurting and they need a quick fix to bring players back.

Nov 1, 2011#203

Terrik

I kinda got agree with mathias in a sense. There's no real pretending that lore changes weren't made more or less solely for what Bliz thought would be good game balance/mechanics/etc. I really like WC lore, but chances to characters like Kael, killing "x" major plot character because he went "crazy" and so on kinda killed the story for me.

AND THATS FINE! But I've stopped pretending the lore makes sense anymore and I just kinda look for any sort of features I enjoy.

Of course, when the 40K MMO comes out--if I can be a Khornate magic-spouting chaos sorcerer, I'm going to rage that a nerd never has.

Nov 1, 2011#204

ScytheRexx

I really don't think the lore is as bad as people make it out to be. It's a game, so the lore will obviously be driven by the game mechanics and the needs of the game, but I think they often do a good job with what they have. I never had a problem with Blood Knights, since I always assumed the high elves would have a variation of the paladin. I actually thought the story of the Naaru was what made it frivolous, not so much the class. I think that is why Blizzard decided to make them more "classic" Paladins following TBC.

The draenei as Shaman I thought was a bit odd (the draenei in general were really odd), but they did a good job showing how shamanic the Broken were, which helped cement them for me. Dare I say the "orc homeworld" involved more draenei and blood elves then it did orcs, which I thought was a mistake. Though blood elves are now barely represented compared to orcs, so it evens out I guess.

Maybe I am just overly accepting, but I have known for a long time that Chris Metzen is a proponent of the "Rule of Cool". He will change a section of lore if he finds it would be "cooler" to do it. Draenei were actually a cause by this, one he apologized for, but ultimately I think he made the right choice. Draenei are probably one of the more popular races I see on Alliance, and have a pretty large following in many communities. Remember when the orcs were a bloodthirsty army of evil that burned cities to the ground? To most WC3 players, the sudden honorable Horde lead by Thrall came out of nowhere, yet we all accept it now as just a part of the race and the history. In a few years most of us will not care about Tauren Paladins or Night Elf Mages, they will simply be another step in the history of those races.

I am not going to attempt to convince people to like the lore as it is, that would be a foolish gesture, but I do wish to explain my case in any event.

Nov 1, 2011#205

@Li3n

ScytheRexx said:
Draenei were actually a cause by this, one he apologized for, but ultimately I think he made the right choice. Draenei are probably one of the more popular races I see on Alliance, and have a pretty large following in many communities. Remember when the orcs were a bloodthirsty army of evil that burned cities to the ground? To most WC3 players, the sudden honorable Horde lead by Thrall came out of nowhere, yet we all accept it now as just a part of the race and the history.

Teh lore for Shamans to Warlocks Horde was there from at least WC2, they just expanded on it... unlike the Dranei/Eredar reveal, which totally reversed Eredar lore... needlessly too, as making them split off before Sargeras even started fighting demons would have worked just as well, even better if you consider that they could also make it so the Eredar where keeping the connection secret from the rest of the Legion, making the story more interesting...

Nov 1, 2011#206

Shegokigo

@ Mathias - Except the the Blood Knights were the overarcing story for ALL of Burning Crusade, not just a "silly gameplay driven storyline add on" or did you never do Sunwell raids? So you entire point folds in on itself.

Nov 1, 2011#207

Ravenpoe

Am I the only person that thought the whole enslaved naaru powered blood knights were cool?

Nov 1, 2011#208

Shegokigo

Nope, thought it was fantastic and loved how it played through the storyline all the way to the end of the expansion. I just wish my BElf wasn't so air-headed and as thin as a toothpick with no muscle tone to speak of at all.

Nov 1, 2011#209

ScytheRexx

Shegokigo said:
Nope, thought it was fantastic and loved how it played through the storyline all the way to the end of the expansion. I just wish my BElf wasn't so air-headed and as thin as a toothpick with no muscle tone to speak of at all.

What I find kind of funny, is the males also used to be skinny, but people complained they looked overly skinny and so they bulked them up, but obviously left the female thin. One of those things I don't think I will ever understand.

Hopefully in the new model updates they will increase the definition of the blood elf females. They don't need to make them muscular, but a new defined texture would be great, maybe add some light shading to the stomach to imply musculature, rather then the flat texture they use now. After seeing the "groundwork" for the new Night Elf model, I am hopeful all the other races will get some good designs.

Nov 1, 2011#210

Chibibar

I can understand where Mathias is coming from. I think that is the nature of MMO. It is easy to setup lore and gameplay for single player and even local network, but when it comes to MMO, it has to adapt to the players, game mechanics AND lore.

I know it sounds cheesy, but it boils down to money. How money you wanna make vs how much lore you keep intact, vs how many people will enjoy the game. Sadly the "hardcore*" players are far and few inbetween where the "casual*" crowd tends to dominate.

*hardcore - this can varies into different group. You have super min/max hardcore players, PvP hardcore, and Lore hardcore.
*casual - these people keep paying monthly and maybe put in 10-20 hours a month. They may have couple top level characters much less a full set of highest epic gear, but these people also drives the game cause they don't want to lag FAR behind after each expansion. This group usually drive the "easier" leveling IMO and possible game mechanic/lore changes to accommodate this group.

MMO needs both camp to survive in the long run. The hardcore players usually test/play the end game and use as "benchmark" for other players. how easy is it? how many guild beaten it? how fast can a person level 1-max level? how easy to obtain X,Y,Z items? etc etc.

Is it right? that is up in the air. Lore can and will change in MMO since that is the nature of MMO. It will evolves overtime. It can be good, but also it can be bad (see SWG changes that cause its downfall. They practically change their lore to a whole new thing and fail, now the servers are closing due to lack of players)

Blizzard numbers are going down, but still #1 MMO (in terms of subs) compare to others, but other Devs are getting smart and start making games to entice other players that is not WoW but still fun and have good lore, so Blizzard will continue to adapt and change and hope to get those players back.

Nov 1, 2011#211

GasBandit

If you think blizzard's paladin BS is a contentious point... just wait until Dark Millenium Online.

Nov 1, 2011#212

Biannoshufu

my theory? Blizz CEO's and shareholder board are diverting majority of A Team devs to Titan, and patching WoW with B team expansions, saying to them "have fun, don't create any PR messes."

Nov 1, 2011#213

Chibibar

Biannoshufu said:
my theory? Blizz CEO's and shareholder board are diverting majority of A Team devs to Titan, and patching WoW with B team expansions, saying to them "have fun, don't create any PR messes."

You know. I can go behind that idea. I mean how old is WoW now? it has a pretty long running as MMO goes but Blizzard knows eventually it will go away (maybe another 3-4 expansion?) so I can totally see their A team working on Titan their new "toy" for the next 10-20 years

Nov 1, 2011#214

AshburnerX

GasBandit said:
If you think blizzard's paladin BS is a contentious point... just wait until Dark Millenium Online.

Honestly, all they need to do is let females be Sisters of Battle. They are practically the same thing at this point, except they occasionally get miracles.

Nov 1, 2011#215

ScytheRexx

Biannoshufu said:
my theory? Blizz CEO's and shareholder board are diverting majority of A Team devs to Titan, and patching WoW with B team expansions, saying to them "have fun, don't create any PR messes."

This is somewhat true, though Blizzard does not really like calling them the "B" team, since a lot of the developers that started on WoW years ago are still working on it. Not all of them, but a good deal of them. Blizzard even said on the forum that the vast majority of the developers on the WoW team have been working on it for at least a couple years, so it's not like they just brought them in to take over for others.

Most of the adjustments have been to the head developers, like they took Jeff Kaplan, and moved him over to Titan. Rob Pardo was actually promoted to vice president of game design, so he works on more then one project now. Tom Chilton still works mostly on World of WarCraft, as do a lot of the other senior developers. Alex Afrasiabi was one of the more recent members to move to the Titan team.

In the end, it is foolish to assume the development teams have not changed, but it is also foolish to assume that the majority of people on the team now are "B" stock development.

Nov 1, 2011#216

Biannoshufu

ScytheRexx said:
In the end, it is foolish to assume the development teams have not changed, but it is also foolish to assume that the majority of people on the team now are "B" stock development.

My statement was my opinion regarding how the game was (A List) versus how I feel about it now (B list, like B Movies.) And while I'm sure the devs are all top notch at what they do (come on, it's Blizzard, not CCP *) that doesn't necessarily mean the game decisions made by Blizzard as a whole regarding WoW hasn't left me feeling blah about it. I'm sure you disagree with my opinion nonetheless, but I didn't want a misunderstanding of terms left on the table.

*yes, that was a blatant, factless trolling comment.

Nov 1, 2011#217

ScytheRexx

Biannoshufu said:
My statement was my opinion regarding how the game was (A List) versus how I feel about it now (B list, like B Movies.) And while I'm sure the devs are all top notch at what they do (come on, it's Blizzard, not CCP *) that doesn't necessarily mean the game decisions made by Blizzard as a whole regarding WoW hasn't left me feeling blah about it. I'm sure you disagree with my opinion nonetheless, but I didn't want a misunderstanding of terms left on the table.

I can understand that. You are not the only person feeling bleh about the game right now. I personally felt Cataclysm was the weakest expansion. Not in the form of content, which seems to be where most complain, but instead to changes in how they handle guilds, progression, and quests. I miss smaller, friendly guilds over mega-leveled guilds. I miss easier heroics with clear progression that helped me gear up for raids without lots of time investment. I miss quest "hubs" that actually allowed me to easily pick and choose my questing location without having to slog through a huge nearly forty quest prerequisite just to unlock the questing area I liked.

I am hopeful since Blizzard seemed to be changing back when it comes to progression design, but it will remain to be seen what they do with quests and guilds. We know they are adding more guild levels, which makes me a little worried unless they also reduce the time it takes to level a guild.

Nov 1, 2011#218

Chibibar

ScytheRexx said:
I can understand that. You are not the only person feeling bleh about the game right now. I personally felt Cataclysm was the weakest expansion. Not in the form of content, which seems to be where most complain, but instead to changes in how they handle guilds, progression, and quests. I miss smaller, friendly guilds over mega-leveled guilds. I miss easier heroics with clear progression that helped me gear up for raids without lots of time investment. I miss quest "hubs" that actually allowed me to easily pick and choose my questing location without having to slog through a huge nearly forty quest prerequisite just to unlock the questing area I liked.

I am hopeful since Blizzard seemed to be changing back when it comes to progression design, but it will remain to be seen what they do with quests and guilds. We know they are adding more guild levels, which makes me a little worried unless they also reduce the time it takes to level a guild.

Even thought I am out of WoW, I think higher guild level is a bad idea

since it will kill any small guild trying to obtain those. Sure smaller guild CAN reach some levels which may take 3-4 times longer, but higher level would be near impossible unless with heavy recruitment (which kinda making small guild moot)

I do like small niche guild since it tend to be more family like (there ARE rare occasion where larger guild can be family like but those are rarer than small guild IMO)

Nov 1, 2011#219

Biannoshufu

Honestly, at some point it became World of Hamsterwheel. I just felt like the only reason I played was because my friends did, and we were all doing essentially the same stuff over and over. The game hadn't been fun for me since they nerfed the ability to raid the other factions cities. I suppose that makes me a griefer, but really, I prefer the sandbox style MMO over the themepark.

Nov 1, 2011#220

ScytheRexx

What would I like them to do? Remove guild experience through questing. It's already horrible, because not only do low level quests give .0002 of a guilds experience, but once at the higher levels you run out of quests, your contribution of the guild leveling goes to pretty much nothing.

They need to reduce the amount of experience and instead intertwine the experience gain with the guild challenges. Make high level challenges (that give experience and gold) and low level challenges (that just give experience). As long as you have a tight knit group willing to do challenges, you can then gather experience at nearly the same rate, whether you have 10 members or 100. Yes in some of the larger guilds some people will still not be contributing simply because others are doing the challenges and finishing them off for the week.

They also need to make it so when you leave a guild, you don't lose all the reputation you gained. There needs to be some penalty, like maybe you can't buy stuff from your new guild for a two week period after joining, but asking people to reputation grind again because their guild decided to kick them or they hated the old people in it is just torturous.

Honestly, at some point it became World of Hamsterwheel. I just felt like the only reason I played was because my friends did, and we were all doing essentially the same stuff over and over. The game hadn't been fun for me since they nerfed the ability to raid the other factions cities. I suppose that makes me a griefer, but really, I prefer the sandbox style MMO over the themepark.

That is understandable. I miss a few of the things that made the world feel more adventurous. I had my moments of wonder doing the old wetlands run on a night elf. Though a lot of that has to do with nostalgia. If I had to deal with something like that today, I probably would hate it. My sensibilities seem to be changing where the theme park style adventure is becoming more enjoyable to me then the sandbox.

On the bright side (at least from what it seems you enjoy), Blizzard is going to promote more PVP down the line. They are giving each faction their own "home city" on Pandaria, and neither will be considered a sanctuary. That means if you play on a PVP server, you can find yourself getting raided by the opposite faction and killed just while running your bank errands. They made it clear that the next expansion after this is supposed to be pretty much the culmination of the Horde/Alliance war, and will be pushing it to the forefront of everything. Pandaria is supposed to be the calm before the storm type of expansion.

Nov 1, 2011#221

Shegokigo

I just realized what I'm going to be doing for ultimate "hilarity".

Level a Panderan to 90 (class to be determined, hunter or monk probably), then go and solo Illidan, C'Thun, Yog, Malygos, Magtheridon, Gruul and all the major lore/boss characters of Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich king, take screenshots of my Panderan over the corpses and title them "Lol Time Traveling Panderan saves Azeroth!"

Nov 1, 2011#222

ScytheRexx

Shegokigo said:
Level a Panderan to 90 (class to be determined, hunter or monk probably), then go and solo Illidan, C'Thun, Yog, Malygos, Magtheridon, Gruul and all the major lore/boss characters of Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich king, take screenshots of my Panderan over the corpses and title them "Lol Time Traveling Panderan saves Azeroth!"

Too bad we don't have a bronze whelpling pet. Would be perfect for such shots.

Nov 1, 2011#223

@Li3n

AshburnerX said:
Honestly, all they need to do is let females be Sisters of Battle. They are practically the same thing at this point, except they occasionally get miracles.

90% of SoB players will be males, mark my words...

But relax, no way GW lets them use female marines...

Nov 1, 2011#224

Frankie Williamson

Shegokigo said:
I just realized what I'm going to be doing for ultimate "hilarity".

Level a Panderan to 90 (class to be determined, hunter or monk probably), then go and solo Illidan, C'Thun, Yog, Malygos, Magtheridon, Gruul and all the major lore/boss characters of Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich king, take screenshots of my Panderan over the corpses and title them "Lol Time Traveling Panderan saves Azeroth!"

I don't Illidan is possible to solo no matter how high your stats are.

Just sayin'.

Nov 1, 2011#225

Shegokigo

I've already soloed most everything I listed above with my Paladin. So yeah, it totally is.

Don't have to take my word for it either, tons of videos online showing how to do it on Paladins or Death Knights (just avoid the dumb ones that are done on Private Servers)

Nov 1, 2011#226

GasBandit

@Li3n said:
90% of SoB players will be males, mark my words...

But relax, no way GW lets them use female marines...

Before Warhammer Online, a lot of Warhammer enthusiasts would have said "there's no way greenskins, dark elves and the forces of Chaos would be buddy-buddy and all move in together to the Inevitable City and have wacky adventures together." GW is notoriously intransigent about their IPs, and difficult to work with, but even they can be bent.

But Ashburner's probably right, they'll probably just fudge SoB to be the "female" option for the space marine class.

Myself, I'm hoping "Commissar" is a multipet class. Muaha.

Nov 1, 2011#227

Adammon

All this WoW talk has my subscription finger itching; then I remember why I quit and I go into a torturous rage and throw my authenticator across the room.

Then I go pick it up and gently rock it back to sleep - it's too soon to replace another ipod.

Nov 1, 2011#228

@Li3n

GasBandit said:
Before Warhammer Online, a lot of Warhammer enthusiasts would have said "there's no way greenskins, dark elves and the forces of Chaos would be buddy-buddy and all move in together to the Inevitable City and have wacky adventures together." GW is notoriously intransigent about their IPs, and difficult to work with, but even they can be bent.

Meh, that was more like the way they let Empire fight Empire and orcs as mercs for anyone... GW was never intransigent on that. SM's on the other hand...

Frankly i was expecting words about teh male Sorcerers...

Nov 1, 2011#229

AshburnerX

GasBandit said:
Myself, I'm hoping "Commissar" is a multipet class. Muaha.

This is my hope as well. Here are my predictions for possible classes.

Space Marine/Sister of Battle: Tank, with ether a melee or ranged option.
Guardsmen: Ranged DPS
Commissar: Multi-pet DPS, with team buffs.
Techpriest: Buffer/Debuffer and some heals, with a pet possibly.
Ecclesiarchy: Healer with some buffs.
Sanctioned Psyker: Mezzer who does damage primarily through DoTs.

Nov 1, 2011#230

Hailey Knight

All this talk is having me ponder checking out Pandaria... so I'm gonna stop reading this thread, because I've barely had time for New Vegas.

Nov 1, 2011#231

@Li3n

AshburnerX said:
Guardsmen: Ranged DPS

No way a lowly trooper is a class of it's own...

Nov 1, 2011#232

Chibibar

Quotemander Prime said:
All this talk is having me ponder checking out Pandaria... so I'm gonna stop reading this thread, because I've barely had time for New Vegas.

LOL. It is thread like this that keep me FROM signing back up

Nov 1, 2011#233

Biannoshufu

Chibibar said:
LOL. It is thread like this that keep me FROM signing back up

Nov 1, 2011#234

Mathias

I signed back up a quick month. I wanted to see how WoW was since I left it back in June. Yep, same boring shit as ever...

I'll probably buy Mists, but the only soul reason being is that I've wanted to be a Pandarien brewmaster since like day one. Monk will be close enough.

Nov 1, 2011#235

Frankie Williamson

The tank spec talent tree (well, I guess that won't be true once they overhaul it) is called brewmaster.

Nov 1, 2011#236

Dei

Honestly I quit WoW because my guild dissolved and I'm at the point where I don't feel like trying to find a new guild, when I already had my life scheduled around my old guild as it was. Though I do find myself completely baffled about what to do with myself at my normal raid times still, no lie.

Nov 1, 2011#237

AshburnerX

@Li3n said:
No way a lowly trooper is a class of it's own...

Maybe a Vindicare Assassin instead then?

Nov 1, 2011#238

GasBandit

AshburnerX said:
Maybe a Vindicare Assassin instead then?

I agree that a single guardsman probably won't be a playable/viable character. Vindicare could conceivably work, but I'm betting Psyker for ranged dps. Heck, they both could be.

Nov 1, 2011#239

ScytheRexx

I think the people that quit and are thinking about signing back up should wait. A few of us here are definitely going to be getting the expansion when it comes out, and it might be better to see how our reactions are. At the very least I will tell you honestly if the game is still the same old grinds that you hate, and hopefully save you a wasted sale.

I support Blizzard, but I also support people having educated choices and not rushing into games over the hype train, even more so when it's one they played and might not like anymore. A few people not purchasing on the boards on release day is not going to kill them.

BTW...

Nov 1, 2011#240

fade

That seems to seriously misrepresent the point of view of the people "freaking out".

Nov 1, 2011#241

GasBandit

fade said:
That seems to seriously misrepresent the point of view of the people "freaking out".

Yeah, they're not upset about panda man, they're upset panda man "is a jack black ripoff."

Nov 1, 2011#242

ScytheRexx

fade said:
That seems to seriously misrepresent the point of view of the people "freaking out".

How so? The main point they always bring up is that they are panda people. After that it's the Kung Fu Panda argument which has already been debunked. Lastly a few people complain about the china culture influence. In the end, the vast majority are still hung up on the "panda people" fact more then any other.

The image is only pointing out "We had animal people and mutant animal people already, why is this a big deal now?"

Nov 1, 2011#243

fade

ScytheRexx said:
How so? The main point they always bring up is that they are panda people. After that it's the Kung Fu Panda argument which has already been debunked. Lastly a few people complain about the china culture influence. In the end, the vast majority are still hung up on the "panda people" fact more then any other.

The image is only pointing out "We had animal people and mutant animal people already, why is this a big deal now?"

That's not what I've been reading. It seems people are less concerned about animal people and as gas said, more concerned about the KFP thing, whether it's valid or not.

Nov 1, 2011#244

ScytheRexx

fade said:
That's not what I've been reading. It seems people are less concerned about animal people and as gas said, more concerned about the KFP thing, whether it's valid or not.

Maybe that is more casual WoW sites? I am speaking mostly about the game itself and the few hardcore locations I visit, like the main wow boards, wow-insider, and mmo-champion.

The KFP reference argument is still a major one that appear often, it's not a small grouping arguing it, but most as far as I see say that "Pandaren" don't fit the world of Azeroth as a serious race. Many still believe they should have remained jokes. To be honest, even if Blizzard made sure they looked nothing like KFP, you would be seeing the same amount of bullshit. In the end, it will blow over, just like the "LOL WORGEN? TWILITARD IN MY WARCRAF!? BULLSHIT!." that happens and the fizzled when Worgen were announced.

Nov 1, 2011#245

Mathias

To be honest, I still fucking love Worgen

Nov 1, 2011#246

Adammon

Indeed. I think worgen should have been added a long time ago. Making them Alliance was kind of...retarded but there were definitely a good addition to the lore.

Nov 1, 2011#247

Ravenpoe

If only every helmet didn't look so retarded on a worgen. Somehow they manage to look even worse than on tauren.

My favorite expansion edition is still the death knight. I love the class, and the lore behind it. The Knights of the Ebon Blade are a kickass order, and their starting zone is still the best laid out railroad storypiece in the game.

When Darion throws the Ashbringer? Epic.

Nov 2, 2011#248

@Li3n

AshburnerX said:
Maybe a Vindicare Assassin instead then?

I was thinking that at the very least we'd get a Sergeant... but that works too.

Nov 2, 2011#249

ScytheRexx

Ravenpoe said:
My favorite expansion edition is still the death knight. I love the class, and the lore behind it. The Knights of the Ebon Blade are a kickass order, and their starting zone is still the best laid out railroad storypiece in the game.

I wish they utilized the faction a bit more often. Right now the storyline of the Death Knights only really continues in Western Plaguelands, with Thassarian and Koltira having a "friendly" war in Anderhol since they both integrated fully with their factions. They don't really appear at all in Eastern Plaguelands, which I found sort a waste since they still hover right there almost over Light's Hope Chapel.

The Argent Crusade was my biggest disappointment. The whole faction is based on the Argent Dawn, and the Argent Dawn fought anyone that threatened the world. They were investigating the forces of the Old Gods in Ashenvale, they held the line at the Dark Portal for the pre-tbc events until the Horde and Alliance could show up to help. Then Tirion takes over, turns them into the Argent Crusade, and has them take the fight to the Lich King to save the world. Now Cataclysm happens, and a massive dragon is literally burning down sections of the planet, and they just sit in the Plaguelands. What the hell Tirion?

I know the reason for this, Blizzard needed to add a new faction set for reputation grinds, thus why we work with the "Guardians of Hyjal" rather then the Cenarion Circle, and why the main force fighting Deathwing is the Earthen Ring, but still, just seems silly to me to have such a massive force of good take a back seat to a near worldwide apocalypse. The Shattered Sun are also part offenders, having driven out Kil'jaeden and then disappearing almost entirely.

Personally I wish they would just utilize some of the same factions or even cross faction gain, like when I gain reputation with the Cenarion Circle I also gain some with the Guardians of Hyjal and the Cenarion Expedition. I thought it was kind of neat that doing quests in the Plaguelands gave me reputation for the Argent Crusade, even though I wouldn't be seeing their quartermaster for another 40 levels. It made it feel at least a bit more consistent.

Nov 2, 2011#250

fade

My biggest problem with the DK was that it was too easy to play, and the game is already easy enough.

Nov 2, 2011#251

ScytheRexx

fade said:
My biggest problem with the DK was that it was too easy to play, and the game is already easy enough.

Maybe back when they first came out and they were designed to be slightly overpowered in the starting section, but they are a little more complicated now.

Feb 28, 2012#252

Weloenstal

I don't relly feel that death Knight's are over powered, they're just different

Feb 28, 2012#253

Ravenpoe

As a long time dk player, they're not op or easier at all.

Feb 28, 2012#254

Shegokigo

DKs are currently the only class in the game that can solo content such as Yog 0 Light, Lich King etc. There are other classes that can come close (Hunters, Prot Paladins) but DKs do it with ease. Also, DKs are a hybrid class and therefore should be penalized the Hybrid tax on dps yet they frequently out dps pure classes such as Mage/Rogue/Hunter.

They are overpowered, regardless of how well you personally play them.

Feb 28, 2012#255

ScytheRexx

Again, I think fade still has his memory of them from the days they first came out, when they were rather powerful, more so in the 55-70 region. Various nerfs, talent alterations, balancing, and spec system changes brought them much closer in line with the other classes near the end of Wrath, even in the lower zones. My lower level Night Elf DK has a much harder time leveling then I remember my Blood Elf DK having in the same level regions when the expansion first came out.

DKs are currently the only class in the game that can solo content such as Yog 0 Light, Lich King etc. There are other classes that can come close (Hunters, Prot Paladins) but DKs do it with ease. Also, DKs are a hybrid class and therefore should be penalized the Hybrid tax on dps yet they frequently out dps pure classes such as Mage/Rogue/Hunter.

I wouldn't really say that. I have never seen a DK at the top of the charts in any of my runs these days. The reason DKs are able to solo old content is because of the powerful damage and healing abilities of blood spec, giving them an advantage over other classes in older encounters where they can mitigate that damage through Death Strike spamming. Other classes have to either leave tank form (druids), cast the heal and lose DPS (paladins), or simply don't have enough health to handle the damage in the long run (Hunter Pets). Hunters also have the disadvantage that the only pet heal they have is a HoT.

Feb 28, 2012#256

Dave

Ravenpoe said:
As a long time dk player, they're not op or easier at all.

When they hit level cap. Until then they certainly are OP by quite a bit. Plate, massive DPS and autoheals. Yeah. Not OP at all.

Feb 28, 2012#257

ScytheRexx

Dave said:
When they hit level cap. Until then they certainly are OP by quite a bit. Plate, massive DPS and autoheals. Yeah. Not OP at all.

Sigh. I am wondering if some of you just have a strange dislike for DKs.

I play a DK in the low brackets off-and-on (Jeserix) and she is not nearly as overpowered as my past DK in the lower leveled areas. Also, as someone that has now leveled up three character almost entirely through PVP (Blazette, Janeva, and Jaekyll), I can tell you that once you hit the bracket DKs start to appear, they transition in rather seamlessly and don't "rule" the battleground by any stretch. Actually many DKs I fight in between 55-65 ended up often being an easy kill, with only Blood Spec giving problems due to their near impossible ability to die. ("they can't kill me, but I can't kill them" type of deal.)

I admit, Blood Spec is a little nuts even at end game, which is why the healing factor of the spec if right now up for possible revision in MoP.

Feb 28, 2012#258

Dave

I don't hate them so much as think they are OP. I leveled one to 85 and was soloing things that my other toons needed to be in groups of 2 or 3 to accomplish. Add in their ability to pull foes close and stun them for a second and you take away a lot of the only advantage some of the squishy toons have. So a self-healing toon wearing plate mail that can pull you in even if you have him slowed or poisoned. Awesome.

Feb 28, 2012#259

Shegokigo

Blood and Frost spec DKs are always top 5 in all major PVE raids. Just check the logs at World of Raids.

Again, it's not just their raid performance, they again, are the only class that solo everything from Vanilla WoW to Wrath and even some Cata content.

Feb 28, 2012#260

Bowielee

Playing pvp with my Dk, i always had the biggest problem with druids, but i was unholy specced. I have to admit, ive been kind of missing wow lately, but free time will be going to skyrim next.

Feb 28, 2012#261

Dave

DOOO EEEET! It's good for you.

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...s-spatial-ability-and-focus-in-adults/253534/

Feb 28, 2012#262

Bowielee

Eh, maybe during spring break i'll play some, but until then, i have no free time.

Feb 28, 2012#263

ScytheRexx

Shegokigo said:
Blood and Frost spec DKs are always top 5 in all major PVE raids. Just check the logs at World of Raids.

World of Raids logs have some faults to them, though. If you check other logs around the web you will find that other classes have increased much more of the general median for Dragon Soul, with pure DPS like Mages and Rogues coming out on top. Arm Warriors have also seen a great improvement. DKs actually dropped in most specs compared to what they were in Firelands, and are considered one of the more "useless" classes for raiding unless played extremely well (which, in the top raid guilds, you have too).

Feb 28, 2012#264

Shegokigo

Dunno what to tell you, I'm speaking from experience which I'm sure you are too. However they're doing in raids, they're easily topping the hybrid classes in terms of tankability and dpsing. As well as being the best solo raid class.

Feb 28, 2012#265

ScytheRexx

Shegokigo said:
Dunno what to tell you, I'm speaking from experience which I'm sure you are too. However they're doing in raids, they're easily topping the hybrid classes in terms of tankability and dpsing. As well as being the best solo raid class.

All I am saying is that they are not as "OP" as people are making them out to be in a general set. In the scheme of being in competition with other classes in raid or PVP, they are usually in the middle of the road rather then the top of the hill. There are always exceptions, due to good play, but exceptions don't form the rule.

Like I said before, the reason Blood DKs can kill older raids is not because they are overpowered, but is because of a rudimentary "flaw" in their design. Blood Spec was designed to be a reactionary tank rather then a proactionary one. Where a druid, warrior, or paladin mitigates damage thus reducing the force of an attack, the Blood DK takes more damage and then heals that damage through abilities like Rune Tap and Death Strike.

In order for this to be viable, the Blood DK has to be able to heal damage given off by CATACLYSM raid bosses. Cataclysm raid bosses can do over 100k damage on certain abilities. The highest the Lich King can do in most cases was 10k, with a few high damage spells that can be avoided if you plan it right.

Now lets go back to the other tank classes. Warrior has no way to heal himself unless he kills something, meaning killing the Lich King would be impossible as he wouldn't be able to outlast the Lich Kings health pool. Paladin can attempt to outlast the Lich King, but in order to do it he would have to stop his damaging attacks to conserve as much mana as possible, as Protection Paladins don't have a large mana pool. Druid would have it even worst, as they would have to transfer out of their Bear Form to heal, making them more vulnerable to powerful spells and strikes, though they at least would have less of a mana issue due to background recharge. Blood DK? All he needs to do is wait for rune cooldowns and can forever keep up a damage heal rotation. At that point, as long as the boss himself does not also have a heal, he will be able to do it through simple attrition. It makes them naturally overpowered versus old content, i will give you that, but does nothing for new content.

Feb 29, 2012#266

Shannow

Yeah, saying the class is OP because of its ability to solo old content is a ridiculous argument.

Feb 29, 2012#267

Frankie Williamson

Mike Morhaime said:
Everyone,

We announced today that we’re in the process of cutting a number of active positions, mostly non-development, throughout the company. I'm sure this announcement has sparked some questions from all of you, so I want take this opportunity to address those as best I can. Over the past several years, the company has grown rapidly and evolved to better serve you and the rest of our global community. Thanks to all of your support, we continue to serve by far the biggest subscription-based MMO community, as well as the most passionate eSports and online gaming communities, in the world.

In order to keep making epic game content while serving players effectively, we have to be smart about how we manage our resources. This means we sometimes have to make difficult decisions about how to best maintain the health of the company. We’re in the process of making some of those hard decisions now.

After evaluating our current organizational needs, we determined that while some areas of our business had been operating at the right levels and could benefit from further growth, other areas had become overstaffed. As a result, we need to scale down some of our departments and part with some of our colleagues and friends here at Blizzard. I know that you all understand how difficult this type of situation can be for anyone who might be affected, so I want to assure you that we'll be offering each impacted employee a severance package and other benefits.

I also want to emphasize that we remain committed to shipping multiple games this year, and that our development teams in particular remain largely unaffected by today's announcement. We're continuing to develop, iterate, and polish Blizzard DOTA, Diablo III, StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm, World of Warcraft: Mists of Pandaria, as well as other, unannounced projects. We'll have exciting news to share in the coming weeks regarding Diablo III's release date, and will soon be holding a private media event to showcase the latest work on Mists of Pandaria. It goes without saying that we're working hard to get all of these games in your hands as soon as possible.

You've all come to expect Blizzard to live up to our mission statement with every game, and deliver the most epic entertainment experiences ever. You can continue to expect that and nothing less from us as we move forward.

-Mike Morhaime

Job's done.

Blizzard laid off like 600 people today.

Feb 29, 2012#268

@Li3n

So, if they didn't fire anyone from development, who did they let go?

Is it the people who provided the Diabl 3 team with coke and whores? Because that would totally explain D3's development cycle...

Feb 29, 2012#269

Dave

Losing subscribers + next expac finished = no job security at Blizzard.

Feb 29, 2012#270

Gared

As much as I love WoW (and I still do), my recent gaming experiences via DA:O and Skyrim have really made me realize just how much I really do prefer single player gaming. I'd love to see Blizzard resurrect Single-Player Warcraft... though to be fair, I'm not sure that I'd be able to go back to playing Warcraft as an RTS after years of the WoW format. I'd much prefer to see it as an RPG similar to Dragon Age or Skyrim. Weren't they talking a while back about releasing a Warcraft 4, something that took the WoW timeline through the end of WotLK into account? That'd give 'em some job security.

Feb 29, 2012#271

Shegokigo

Shannow said:
Yeah, saying the class is OP because of its ability to solo old content is a ridiculous argument.

I said it's one of the things. A larger part of a whole. Thanks for sharing your opinion.

@ Gared - I had quite the opposite feeling. Playing a number of really solid Single Player RPGs have just made me realize how spoiled by MMOs I am. I haven't gotten a single character past lvl 25 on Skyrim and I just can't do it. I tried a number of RPGs that I've completed in the past and some I haven't and I just can't do it.

Playing through SW:TOR has been the most fun I've had since the most recent WoW patch and will continue to play TOR till Mists is released for sure.

Feb 29, 2012#272

ElJuski

Kinda want to start playing casually again.

Feb 29, 2012#273

Hailey Knight

Wish I could play TOR.

Feb 29, 2012#274

Dei

I really prefer co-op games, and that's where MMOs come in for me. I like being able to group with friends, or people I meet in the game and do things together. Whereas those single player games, while basically the same thing if I'm solo playing, don't give me the option to co-op and thus make me sad.

Feb 29, 2012#275

Gared

I do miss co-op gaming, but I just haven't had that much luck with MMOs finding good groups of people to play with aside from a rare few times I've managed to get into a couple of PuG raids back in the early days of WotLK, when Naxx was just hitting farming status for most guilds; but then the guild imploded and I haven't set foot in a raid dungeon since, aside from solo runs of old world content. I'm sure if I'd had better guild experiences, I'd feel completely different about MMOs.

Feb 29, 2012#276

Shegokigo

You ever play on RP servers Gared? You don't have to RP but I find the people are genuinely more pleasant to be around.

Feb 29, 2012#277

Gared

Yeah, I've played on a couple RP servers, Normal Servers, even some PvP servers (where I was looking for PvP and found it). My experiences seem to go one of two ways though, with no intermixing. I can either find guilds full of fun, pleasant people; or guilds that raid. I'm not too upset with it, I still love playing WoW, I'd just like a chance to see some raid content before it's two or three expacs old. Sadly, I now have less time to devote to gaming during weeknights, and that seems to be when everyone wants to raid - my commute is just too long and unpredictable to be able to reliably schedule myself for raid times during the week. I don't blame everyone else for my inability to have fun, I've just been gravitating more and more toward games where I don't have to rely on my schedule and anyone else' schedules matching in order for me to have fun.

Feb 29, 2012#278

Shegokigo

Gared said:
I'd just like a chance to see some raid content before it's two or three expacs old. Sadly, I now have less time to devote to gaming during weeknights

Um, you are aware of LFR right?

Feb 29, 2012#279

Gared

Yep. Haven't ventured in to LFR, had too many bad experiences with the random dungeon finder for heroics while tanking. Granted, that was at the very beginning of Cataclysm, when none of the DPS on my server remembered that they needed to watch their threat levels and pay attention to instructions from the tank, so it may have improved since then - but like I said, I do still enjoy soloing and leveling; and I do tend to have fun with LFD on non-tank characters, I just suck as a retadin. Don't know why, just have not been able to get the hang of it. You want me to tank or heal, no problem. You want me to DPS as anything other than a pally, no problem. You want me to spec Ret - no dice. And honestly, the only reason I'm not playing WoW right now, is because I'm playing Skyrim right now. When I decide to finally finish the main story arc on Skyrim, I'll probably go back to WoW, unless D3 has been released, in which case I'm sure I'll play that for a while first. It's not like I'm lacking for gaming options.

Feb 29, 2012#280

Shegokigo

LFR pretty much eliminates the problem I quoted above.

Mar 1, 2012#281

Gared

Rolled a new character, gonna try to level as a retadin and see if I can get the hang of it.

Mar 2, 2012#282

Shannow

Shegokigo said:
You ever play on RP servers Gared? You don't have to RP but I find the people are genuinely more pleasant to be around.

This is wholly true. I am in an RP guild and I absolutely love it

Shegokigo said:
I said it's one of the things. A larger part of a whole. Thanks for sharing your opinion.

Sorry, you just kept saying it. But as for the rest, Scy preeeeety much debunked everything you said, so I thought I would just toss my opinion in there on that.[/quote]

Mar 2, 2012#283

Shegokigo

Toss your opinion anywhere you want, he didn't debunk anything he simply stated his experiences as I did mine. They're equally factual.

Mar 2, 2012#284

Shannow

Disagree.

Mar 2, 2012#285

ScytheRexx

Blizzard is once again doing some stat adjustment for Mists of Pandaria. The whole article is here, but I will list some of the major changes.

Resistances have been abolished. They felt that with the way the game was moving they were not utilizing the mechanic, so it just was adding another set of confusing stats. As such, spell penetration is also being abolished. They have not explained what this will do to racials that increase resistances.

Hit and Expertise are being slightly redesigned. The game will not longer play off melee hit and spell hit in the background, and instead hit will become a single stat that works on all classes. Expertise is also being altered to give a bonus to all classes, by negating dodge or spell miss, and then parry. Hunter ranged attacks can now be dodged, so they will be more balanced once the melee deadzone is removed.

Block is being moved to a separate combat roll that follows the first. The game will first roll to see if you parry or dodge, and if you fail to parry or dodge it will roll again to see if you block. If you fail both those rolls you will take the full strike. Be aware this is a slight nerf, since it means tanks can no longer "cap out" their block/parry/dodge to reach a near 100% chance of one of those items firing over taking a full strike.

Critical Strikes are being altered to baseline X2.0 for all classes. If you make a successful critical strike roll you will always do double the damage of the strike, rather then the current design in which many classes only did X1.5

Resilience is being abolished in favor of two new stats. PVP Defense and PVP Power. All characters will have a baseline 30% PVP Defense, meaning all players will have a natural damage reduction versus other players to make PVP battles less about burst damage. As one collects PVP gear this stat will increase, making them even more difficult to kill, while also giving PVP Power, which will increase damage versus other players, as a way to counteract other players PVP Defense. These stats are not included in the item budget, meaning they don't remove other PVE relevant stats like Haste. However, since they will not be budgeted into the scale, a PVP gear tier will be one tier lower in item level then PVE gear. Though that seems bad, due to PVP Defense and PVP Power, one in the higher item level PVE gear will likely not survive well in PVP situations, even though his item level is higher, because he does not have any stats to counteract the PVP players high PVP Defense.

Some interesting changes, and it will be interesting to see how they work out in the end.

Mar 13, 2012#286

ScytheRexx

This week is going to be the big march press event, lots of new information coming out about Mists of Pandaria soon. One of the larger reveals is going to be the finished model for the Pandaren female, which right now is just a silhouette teaser. Going to be interesting to see what else is revealed. There are also rumors that beta will start in the next month.

Mar 13, 2012#287

Gared

ScytheRexx said:
This week is going to be the big march press event, lots of new information coming out about Mists of Pandaria soon. One of the larger reveals is going to be the finished model for the Pandaren female, which right now is just a silhouette teaser. Going to be interesting to see what else is revealed. There are also rumors that beta will start in the next month.

Oh man, good gaming overload for the first time for me since the original NES days. I just picked up Mass Effect, so I could get into the franchise since 3 was released, and plan on picking up 2 and then 3 as I play my way through; I still have Skyrim to finish up (the dragonborn quest line at least); I've been meaning to give Dragon Age Origins another play through and then finish up Dragon Age 2, which I got to basically the end of and then decided I'd wait before finishing it off and then got sucked back in to WoW and forgot all about DA2; and now the MoP beta? Not to mention D3 shouldn't be too far off now. God damn... guess I won't be bored for a while.

Mar 13, 2012#288

Dave

If Jack Black doesn't voice at least one of the characters in the game, WoW is passing up a grand opportunity to stick it to the whiners.

Like me.

Mar 13, 2012#289

Shegokigo

My recent drop out of WoW is simply because I have all 4 of my main chars fully LFR geared (I have no intention of raiding N/H modes), a 6 figure gold stock pile, capped professions on all 4 chars, and 85-90% of all the achievements in the game completed (That I'd want to achieve) throughout the 4 chars . Right now there's nothing holding my interest in WoW, however don't misunderstand, it's my go-to #1 game when there's new content and when Mists hits, everythingelse is going to take the backseat till I'm back again at that place I am now. I've very much anticipating the news release.

As for the Jack Black comment?

Has a good 20yrs on KFP and would like a word with you.

Mar 13, 2012#290

Dave

Hence my whiner comment. I fully realize the timeline but as I'm not a Lore Whore I could hardly care less. For all intents and purposes the pandas LOOK like Kung Fu Panda and not the cute little guy you have posted above.

Mar 13, 2012#291

AshburnerX

Cute Little Guy? That panda is a douchebag, like everyone else in Ranma 1/2.

Mar 13, 2012#292

Shegokigo

Can I massively disagree with you in picture form?

Other than species there is nothing in remotely visual in common. Also Genma from Ranma 1/2 (pictured in my previous post) is what KFP copied. Panderans are not even remotely similar to either one.

Mar 13, 2012#293

Dave

Mar 13, 2012#294

Dave

Damn. That was to Ash, not Shego.

Mar 13, 2012#295

Dave

And those pictures are different than the ones I saw initially. These do look much better.

And man I miss the double post thing.

Mar 13, 2012#296

GasBandit

Not *everybody* in Ranma 1/2 was a douchebag. Pretty much everybody except Kasumi, I'd say.

Mar 13, 2012#297

ScytheRexx

Shegokigo said:
My recent drop out of WoW is simply because I have all 4 of my main chars fully LFR geared (I have no intention of raiding N/H modes), a 6 figure gold stock pile, capped professions on all 4 chars, and 85-90% of all the achievements in the game completed (That I'd want to achieve) throughout the 4 chars . Right now there's nothing holding my interest in WoW, however don't misunderstand, it's my go-to #1 game when there's new content and when Mists hits, everythingelse is going to take the backseat till I'm back again at that place I am now. I've very much anticipating the news release.

I am in a similar spot, but I still play because I never run out of alts to dabble in, plus my wife and I love to PVP together regardless of level. Collecting gear sets is also a fun side distraction, though I seem to gravitate most of my characters towards the WOTLK pvp sets when it comes to design, which are not hard to get. The only thing keeping me from playing a whole lot more right now is with MoP on the horizon, it's the perfect time to try out other games.

My Night Elf Druid just turned 84 last weekend, she is officially higher then my long time Tauren Druid that I played very little during Cataclysm, who is right now sitting at 82.

Mar 13, 2012#298

Shegokigo

Agreed. All four of my "mains" (Pld, Shm, Mage, Rog) have all the gear sets I want on them (Full void storages and full bank tabs) and the other 4 85s I have (Druid, Warlock, Hunter, Warrior) I don't have enough interest in to really go that far with.

I don't PVP since I did the High Warlord grind in vanilla (Happy with my title, don't feel the need to do it anymore) so now that I've fully done what I want on PVE it's the "Pre-Xpac wait game" for me. *sigh*

Mar 13, 2012#299

ScytheRexx

New landscape shot, really showing off the new texture mixing tools they have started using for this expansion. We are going to get a new shot a day till the big info release on the 19th, so looks like it's actually happening next week.

Mar 13, 2012#300

Shegokigo

Yeah I'm loving the atmosphere. I purposely leave my last 2 char slots open so that I can level and create class combos that I haven't tried before and I'll gladly be making a couple Pandas, of course I'll have to level a 90 Monk as well.

The game sold me on the atmosphere alone so everythingelse is just bonus.

Mar 13, 2012#301

ScytheRexx

I wish other people saw it that way. So far today I have read...

"Friggin Pandas are so retarded. No one wanted them because they are fat and stupid"
"OMG the colors are so fucking cartoony, are they making this game for toddlers now?"
"WTF is this asian shit? This is azeroth, not fucking china."
"Look at how crappy her body shape is, she is way to fat and ugly no one will play her."
"Look at how crappy her body shape is, it's way to thin to be a panda, stupid furries, she is supposed to be round."

I know these idiots are the minority (the minority is always the most vocal because they never shut up), but I am still getting sick of the whining over such trivial shit. No one seems to care that we have native american cow people, but god forbid a panda person gets added to the game.

Mar 13, 2012#302

Shegokigo

During the initial announcement I rounded the forums (WoW and MMO Champ) daily just to post the Genma pictures in a futile attempt to shut people up about the KFP refrences. Usually whatever thread I did it in, was pretty successful but it was a drop in the bucket. All I can say is that I'll be glad if WoW really did bleed off 1 million in idiots after the announcement of Mists.

Mar 13, 2012#303

Frankie Williamson

The new areas look cool. The shitty old character models in those areas on the other hand.

Mar 13, 2012#304

Shegokigo

Secret Fact: There will be new player models in Mists.

Mar 13, 2012#305

Frankie Williamson

I'll belie-dat when I see it.

Mar 13, 2012#306

Dei

Shegokigo said:
Secret Fact: There will be new player models in Mists.

Is that like the Dance Studio in Wrath? Oh wait. =/

Also, whiners also bitched about a rainbow in Diablo, why do people still listen to them?

Mar 13, 2012#307

Shegokigo

Secret fact does not = something they have said they're going to do and then don't aka Dance Studio.
Secret fact = something they they have hinted at saying they're going to do but deny any confirmation as it would ruin the big impact it'll have on the revitalization.

Mar 13, 2012#308

CynicismKills

They've been talking about revamping the pre-BC races on and off for awhile now, would be nice to see them look and animate as slick as Goblins and Worgen.

Mar 13, 2012#309

ScytheRexx

They are working on them. We know this because they didn't have to make a new unique model for Azshara or Illidan in the new WOT heroic, but they did. The implication is that the new models are in the building stages, so they simply took the basic skeleton they are using for the new models and added the new flare to make them viable for some one shot NPCs. It makes sense, because the easiest time to add and mess around with a model is when it's still able to be molded around easily.

Be aware that Blizzard is NOT announcing that these models are going to be coming out. They finally learned their lesson from Dance Studio and Path of the Titans, don't announce something as being in the game unless they know they can deliver it, and instead dance around it and say "maybe". It makes the surprise when the get them in to be more exciting, and if they can't finish it, less people will be riding their asses over it.

Mar 13, 2012#310

Terrik

But riding their ass was such a favorite pastime of mine all those years ago. I remember screaming "FROST SHOCK NERF" back in the old Vanilla days.

I was one of the first lvl 60 hunters on my server. My first pet was a bear named Yogi. When BC came out I switched him out for a ravager. My guild mourned poor yogi. He was...smarter than the average bear in Loch Modan.

Oh..so much of my life wasted.

*cries*.

Mar 13, 2012#311

CynicismKills

ScytheRexx said:
They are working on them. We know this because they didn't have to make a new unique model for Azshara or Illidan in the new WOT heroic, but they did. The implication is that the new models are in the building stages, so they simply took the basic skeleton they are using for the new models and added the new flare to make them viable for some one shot NPCs. It makes sense, because the easiest time to add and mess around with a model is when it's still able to be molded around easily.

Be aware that Blizzard is NOT announcing that these models are going to be coming out. They finally learned their lesson from Dance Studio and Path of the Titans, don't announce something as being in the game unless they know they can deliver it, and instead dance around it and say "maybe". It makes the surprise when the get them in to be more exciting, and if they can't finish it, less people will be riding their asses over it.

Yeah, I primarily played on an RP server, the fallout upon the news of no dance studio could be called...

(‎(( ಠ_ಠ)

( ಠ_ಠ)>--■-■

(-■_■)

...Cataclysmic.

Mar 14, 2012#312

Shegokigo

@ Death Knights are not over-powered:

MMO-CHAMPION.COM said:
Death knight gurus Raegwyn and Valacar took a team of 10 death knights and defeated the heroic version of 10-man Ragnaros. No healers, no casters with epics, just 10 amazingly badass death knights showing off their skills.

Their raid composition was as follows: 1 frost DK
6 DPS blood DKs
3 tank blood DKs
Raegwyn notes that the kill took six hours of wiping, but that's a small price to pay for this epic achievement. Take a look at some other accomplishments of his teams, including an all-death-knight clear of 10-man and 25-man Firelands, plus this interview we did with him back in February 2010.

That's one tier back. That's not even "old content".

Mar 14, 2012#313

Bowielee

For the record, I am a "lore whore" and have been wanting pandarens since the first expansions.

Back when Burning Crusade came out, I was increadibly active on the boards and actually had to argue about the whole "derp, dranei= klingons" BS.

I'd usually point out that orcs themselves are green skinned men from another planet. So what made Dranei any more sci fi?

Mar 14, 2012#314

Frankie Williamson

Shegokigo said:
@ Death Knights are not over-powered:

That's one tier back. That's not even "old content".

I remember the old druid only raids too.

Mar 14, 2012#315

Shegokigo

Druids/Paladins could obviously do it, they each have a healer spec. Druids also have a ranged spec. Death Knights do not have either.

Mar 14, 2012#316

ScytheRexx

Shegokigo said:
Druids/Paladins could obviously do it, they each have a healer spec. Druids also have a ranged spec. Death Knights do not have either.

Like I mentioned before, Death Knight's can heal themselves. The process the players used was likely a constant tank rotation in order for the injured ones to heal themselves up using Death Strike, Blood Pact, and Rune Tap, while the DPS just kept themselves alive through similar processes. This is why it took so long for them to take him down, as they had to make sure to keep moving him as much as possible and it would only take one screw-up for the whole thing to fall apart. Ragnaros himself is very heavy in location damage that can be avoided, so if they planned it correctly, they wouldn't have to heal often.

It is one hell of an achievement, but it would not be possible if they didn't have methods to heal themselves, which I mentioned before is the only reason you see them as "overpowered". The healing factor of the class has always been the lynch pin, and if used correctly, can be abused, but would take lots of effort. You know back in WOTLK before 3.3, a rogue soloed Grobbulus? These types of things can happen if someone puts their mind to it and knows their class extremely well.

Again, a DK in a general game setting, as in, grouped with other classes, is not overpowered compared to the other classes he is taking part. That is the crux of it as I thought I explained. If we can argue that DKs are overpowered because of the tools they have allowing them to single-class a boss, then I can argue that Druids and Paladins are just as overpowered. DKs are healers, they just can only heal themselves.

Mar 14, 2012#317

Shegokigo

Cmon ScytheRexx , you're reaching against obvious facts my friend.

No other tank or dps class in the game without a healing spec can do what those DKs did. It's just that simple.

Also: The rogue that soloed Grobb, used glitches to game the fight and you know it. It's common knowledge. These DKs simply used over powered skills to complete these achievements.

Mar 14, 2012#318

ScytheRexx

I am not reaching at all, I am explaining facts. The Death Knight does have a lot of tools, one of those is self-healing. Under most situations that self-healing will not be enough to keep them alive unless they plan it out. Again, the issue is you don't see DKs as a "healing class", because you are not paying attention to the fact they are. The problem is they are not a healing class is the truest sense of the term, since all the healing abilities they have (and they have a lot) only work on themselves.

In a normal raid setting, aka you have true healers, a DK will not be spamming Death Strike unless he is the tank, because his runes go better towards other, more damaging abilities. A DK spamming those abilities that make them "overpowered" would make him the lowest DPS in the raid. They have to give up the "healing" factor unless they are a tank. If they could spam such abilities and still top all DPS charts above classes like Rogues and Mages (which they don't, ever, regardless of using those abilities or more damaging ones), then I would agree with you.

I will try to be totally clear here one more time, but you are focusing on them being "overpowered" by focusing on things they can do outside of the environments they matter, using examples of rare cases of extreme skill. Yes, a group of 10-rogues can't solo Rag even with all the skill in the world, because they don't have that healing factor, but a group of 10-paladins can. Should I argue that Paladins are "overpowered" compared to rogues because they have that ability to carry out that setup and the rogue can not? It it pretty silly to argue that is the case when the 10-paladin group itself is less effective then a mix of classes, as was the design.

P.S The rogue used a process that involved shadowstep-ing away from Grob and only attacking him now and then while removing himself from range on occasion to keep himself alive and bandage. Some call it a glitch, others call it an inventive usage of skill. In the end the rogue did nothing that technically counted as a glitch in the code, he simply took advantage of his skills in unintended ways by abusing the patching mechanics. Still an abuse, but not one of a glitch.

Mar 14, 2012#319

Shegokigo

ScytheRexx said:
I am not reaching at all, I am explaining facts. The Death Knight does have a lot of tools, one of those is self-healing. Under most situations that self-healing will not be enough to keep them alive unless they plan it out. Again, the issue is you don't see DKs as a "healing class", because you are not paying attention to the fact they are. The problem is they are not a healing class is the truest sense of the term, since all the healing abilities they have (and they have a lot) only work on themselves.

You contridicted your own point in the last two sentences. Healing class = one who can heal others. Self-Healing Class = one who can heal themselves only. I stated that they can do entire raids without a single Healing class as OP.

ScytheRexx said:
In a normal raid setting, aka you have true healers, a DK will not be spamming Death Strike unless he is the tank, because his runes go better towards other, more damaging abilities. A DK spamming those abilities that make them "overpowered" would make him the lowest DPS in the raid. They have to give up the "healing" factor unless they are a tank. If they could spam such abilities and still top all DPS charts above classes like Rogues and Mages (which they don't, ever, regardless of using those abilities or more damaging ones), then I would agree with you.

This has nothing to do with the current topic about the single class only raid, because Mages and Rogues would not be able to do what the Death Knights did.

ScytheRexx said:
I will try to be totally clear here one more time, but you are focusing on them being "overpowered" by focusing on things they can do outside of the environments they matter, using examples of rare cases of extreme skill. Yes, a group of 10-rogues can't solo Rag even with all the skill in the world, because they don't have that healing factor, but a group of 10-paladins can.

I'm trying to be clear too. I'm not calling them OP because of raid performance or what you consider "enviroments that matter". I say they're OP because they can do anything in the game, usually alone, in situations that no other class in the game can do. Can a group of 10 PLDs clear all of Firelands and Heroic Rag? Probably. Can they solo Yog 0? Nope. Can they solo Lich King? Nope. Can a Ret Paladin compete with a DK on dps meter? Sometimes. Can a DK do it with less gear and skill? Yep. Can a PLD/WAR/DRU tank HM end game raids? Yep. Are almost every single Min/Maxing guild in the game using DKs anyway? Yep. Those are the things that make the class over powered.

ScytheRexx said:
hould I argue that Paladins are "overpowered" compared to rogues because they have that ability to carry out that setup and the rogue can not? It it pretty silly to argue that is the case when the 10-paladin group itself is less effective then a mix of classes, as was the design.

See above.

ScytheRexx said:
P.S The rogue used a process that involved shadowstep-ing away from Grob and only attacking him now and then while removing himself from range on occasion to keep himself alive and bandage. Some call it a glitch, others call it an inventive usage of skill. In the end the rogue did nothing that technically counted as a glitch in the code, he simply took advantage of his skills in unintended ways by abusing the patching mechanics. Still an abuse, but not one of a glitch.

The encounter would glitch out. It was a glitch that was fixed. Yes, it was a glitch.

Mar 14, 2012#320

ScytheRexx

Shegokigo said:
You contridicted your own point in the last two sentences. Healing class = one who can heal others. Self-Healing Class = one who can heal themselves only. I stated that they can do entire raids without a single Healing class as OP.

I was attempting to be clear that by "healing class" I meant they have abilities strong enough to heal themselves that a healing class would cast. I was attempting to bring the two together so you understood the concept, maybe I should have worded it better.

I'm trying to be clear too. I'm not calling them OP because of raid performance or what you consider "enviroments that matter". I say they're OP because they can do anything in the game, usually alone, in situations that no other class in the game can do. Can a group of 10 PLDs clear all of Firelands and Heroic Rag? Probably. Can they solo Yog 0? Nope. Can they solo Lich King? Nope. Can a Ret Paladin compete with a DK on dps meter? Sometimes. Can a DK do it with less gear and skill? Yep. Can a PLD/WAR/DRU tank HM end game raids? Yep. Are almost every single Min/Maxing guild in the game using DKs anyway? Yep. Those are the things that make the class over powered.

I don't agree. We will have to agree to disagree on the term overpowered.

If a DK can beat me in PVP 90% of the time? I would say overpowered.

If a DK can out DPS me in a raid setting 90% of the time? Yes, overpowered.

I don't look at the past, I don't care what the class can do in situations that no longer matter on the content scale, because Blizzard themselves have said the game is never balanced for the previous tiers. It has always been balanced for the current. This is why my Paladin can solo WOTLK heroic or even Regular Cata dungeons, but my warrior can't. In the case of handling those situations my Paladin is stronger, but the content is so out of date that I can't in good faith call the class itself overpowered just because it can carry out that act better then other classes. It devalues the term and makes it over encompassing. Rogues can be considered "overpowered" under certain situations, so should I argue they are? Same with Mages, or Warlocks, or Druids.

That seems to be where we are going to have to end it.

The encounter would glitch out. It was a glitch that was fixed. Yes, it was a glitch.

I saw the videos after it happened, the accounting never "glitched", he abused pathing. Abusing a "glitch" is something like using bombs to raise the Lich King platforms early (which got the guild using it banned), but abusing pathing is not a glitch. It WAS fixed, by altering Grob's pathing system so that it was no longer possible to abuse his pathing in the first place, but it was not technically a "glitch" in the sense of the term, which is why the rogue was never banned. Blizzard calls it "inventive usage of game mechanics".

Mar 14, 2012#321

Shegokigo

ScytheRexx said:
I don't agree. We will have to agree to disagree on the term overpowered.

Guess this is just going to end like fade and my argument about "superior" in the iPad 3 thread.

Our differences is that you only focus on "right now content/top tier content", where I as I look at WoW as a "whole" and everything it encompasses.

That's why we have different versions of the term.

Mar 14, 2012#322

ScytheRexx

I know, I just don't trust anyone to balance the game over every situation, not even Blizzard. It would be impossible for Blizzard to carry out without further homogenization.

The DK can be "fixed" right now by removing his self-healing and instead improving mitigation. However, that would pretty much turn them into a warrior, only without a shield. All of the issues you have will go away at the cost of the process that makes their tanking unique, yet on par with the others, at the final tier.

Mar 14, 2012#323

Shegokigo

One problem.... I never said they needed to be fixed. They're just the min/maxer's choice because of their abilities. I'm fine with that, my PLD tanks just fine for what I want it to and my dps can do the content I want it to with a bit of assistance. I don't begrudge DKs for their abilites, I just like to poke fun when people try and say "DKS ARE FINE, L2P NOOB" (not claiming you are saying that but putting things into context)

Mar 14, 2012#324

fade

You know what I love about WoW? I love that the same kids who sit around complaining about how hard math and calculus are can do these complex simultaneous calculations on WoW stats. It just goes to show how much personal preference plays into learning math. Min-maxing? That's calculus. It's part of what calculus was invented for. Maybe we should call physical properties "stats" instead, because that's pretty much what they are. Then we could get kids to solve complex engineering problems in order to be the top-ranked physics player on their server. Or better yet, make an RPG out of it, and let 10 million players serve as organic CPUs. Just translate everything to a fantasy setting. I think I'm onto something here.

Mar 14, 2012#325

ScytheRexx

Shegokigo said:
One problem.... I never said they needed to be fixed. They're just the min/maxer's choice because of their abilities. I'm fine with that, my PLD tanks just fine for what I want it to and my dps can do the content I want it to with a bit of assistance. I don't begrudge DKs for their abilites, I just like to poke fun when people try and say "DKS ARE FINE, L2P NOOB" (not claiming you are saying that but putting things into context)

But I admit, I am saying that.

I believe DKs are fine in general, the issue, like you said, is that I focus on them in one area where I feel the balance matters, rather then every instance of the game from 1-85 and all the content that falls under those levels, including old end game tiers. I actually decided to check your claim on the Min/Max and the general amount of DKs in them, and I found that all 25 Heroic World Firsts/Server Firsts, the most DKs you would find in the group was 3. The majority classes you would find were actually Rogues, Mages, or Shaman most of the time, with a sprinkling of other classes going from either 2-3, comparable with the DK.

The first Heroic Madness of Deathwing 10-man only had a single DK tank, with Feral Druid seeming to be the most consistent tank in all the comps both 25 and 10. I am curious where you are seeing DKs fill up all the min/max raids?

Mar 14, 2012#326

Shegokigo

Apologies I forgot to put the word tank in there.

"They're just the min/maxer's choice of tank because of their abilities"

Figured it was implied when I talked about my tank right after. My mistake.

Also: If that IS what you're saying, then I guess I should apologize for being such a "noob". It won't happen again.

Mar 14, 2012#327

ScytheRexx

Shegokigo said:
Also: If that IS what you're saying, then I guess I should apologize for being such a "noob". It won't happen again.

That was my fault, I didn't mean "literally", just the more respectful "I think DKs play fine, I don't think they are as bad as you are claiming". I got caught up in pointing out I was calling "DKs are fine" that I didn't specify I didn't mean it in the "idiot speak" you used as an example.

I wouldn't call you a noob, mostly because I want to survive the inevitable day you purge most of the population and force me to work as a slave in your super mines.

Mar 14, 2012#328

Shegokigo

I will say this much in agreement with you:

I do not think that in current content, DKs are the most overpowered class in the game. For the most part, with small exceptions, each class is balanced against each other (Despite the forum whining on most sites). There are obvious problems in the system like Druid/DK's self healing being so above and beyond for tanking that WAR/PLD only get the spot if there wasn't already a DRU/DK in the mix. As for dps? It's pretty good across the board at equal skill/gear level.s

The place where I found DK to be overpowered is pretty much everythingelse in the game. Soloing content that nearly no other class could. Doing ridiculous things like 10m Heroic Mode bosses without an outside healer class etc. I would have added PLD to that list as well if Word of Glory hadn't been nerfed, because before that, PLDs were just as good at the rest of the game as DKs were. Maybe that's what's needed for a "nerf/fix" on DKs? 20sec CDs on their self healing? *shrug* I don't care, they can stay as they are.

Mar 14, 2012#329

ScytheRexx

Shegokigo said:
The place where I found DK to be overpowered is pretty much everythingelse in the game. Soloing content that nearly no other class could. Doing ridiculous things like 10m Heroic Mode bosses without an outside healer class etc. I would have added PLD to that list as well if Word of Glory hadn't been nerfed, because before that, PLDs were just as good at the rest of the game as DKs were. Maybe that's what's needed for a "nerf/fix" on DKs? 20sec CDs on their self healing? *shrug* I don't care, they can stay as they are.

I will agree with you there, thus why I think our problem is just how we use the term overpowered in the end. I think we just have drastically different ideas of when and how the word should be used.

They are attempting to reduce the reliance on healing, thus allowing them to make the healing weaker, they have said this, but they need to do it smart because they want to keep the dynamic in general, just not make it so potent. I wouldn't mind a removal of some extra healing factors that can be abused, like Death Pact or Rune Tap, but they would need something else to compensate.

Now to get back to Mists of Pandaria, new screenshot, which shows a new Tauren offshoot. Like I was saying before, they are working on making new race models, and are using the base of these models for NPCs going into MoP. It is very likely, what we are seeing here, will be altered a bit to become the new Tauren model down the line.

Mar 14, 2012#330

ScytheRexx

More new info, and take this with a grain of salt, but someone inside Blizzard has supposedly let leak that they are right now "preparing" the MoP beta servers for deployment, meaning the beta may be released sooner then expected. The way it will work is that all the Annual Pass players will be invited first, occurring in waves, and once it goes into the final stages of the beta they will start to invite players outside of the Annual Pass.

Again, take this with skepticism, since such leaks have no easy way to be verified.

Mar 14, 2012#331

Shegokigo

I had strong feelings already that beta would begin by the end of March with a full release by June. There's just too much info/complete zones/models to not believe that. Also I feel this more of a "mini-xpac" than a "full fledged xpac" and we'll see at least one of these per year in the coming future.

Mar 14, 2012#332

AshburnerX

If it was going to be out by June, there would already be pictures of the box and CD. It's probably going to be more like August.

Mar 14, 2012#333

Shegokigo

I dunno, there was also supposed to be 2-3 months of leaks of info pre-Blizzcon. Blizzard has been insanely tight lip shipped about the entire Mists xpac and the reason why there could easily already be a box (If they're even going to do a traditional box which is another thing I believe they're going to do away with) but no pictures.

Mar 14, 2012#334

fade

I suspect it will be soon because of the scroll of resurrection revamp. Get 'em back in so that they pay for the expansion.

Mar 14, 2012#335

Necronic

The next expansion will be called New Jack City.

Mar 14, 2012#336

CynicismKills

There's a vid out there of an 85 Fire Mage in Firelands gear, I think it is, soloing 85 Ony.

yeah, here's the video, granted this dude is geared out the ass:

Edit: I should point out this thread blew up while I was looking for this video, and now it's not really relevant at all. D:

Mar 14, 2012#337

Shegokigo

Necronic said:
The next expansion will be called New Jack City.

No.

CynicismKills - Yes there are also videos of a Hunter soloing Alganon. The point is there are gimick fights that some rare instances of a class can solo. The difference is the DK can clear the entire zone by itself on the way to those gimmick fights, where the Mage/Hunter needed a group to clear the rest so they could get to that one fight they can solo.

Mar 14, 2012#338

CynicismKills

Yeah, a lot of the previous tiers were really turned into a joke with 4.2. The only thing I've done that was still sort of tough was H-LK 25 because there's still so much crap to keep an eye on. I could see how most other things are possibly done with gimmicks like all-DK or solo something-or-other.

Mar 15, 2012#339

Necronic

Shegokigo said:
No.

We be handing out pandas like Nino Brown!

Mar 16, 2012#340

ScytheRexx

Look at a new leveling armor set.

Mar 17, 2012#341

Bowielee

Broken image

Mar 17, 2012#342

Gared

I can't decide if that looks cool, hilarious, or really, really stupid. I'm kinda leaning toward hilariously stupid, or stupidly hilarious...

Mar 17, 2012#343

Hailey Knight

My immediate response was to chuckle.

It looks stupid.

Mar 17, 2012#344

ScytheRexx

Lots of the armors look stupid, at least this one color matches and fits the theme.

Mar 17, 2012#345

Frankie Williamson

Robes fucking never look good before raid gear.

Mar 17, 2012#346

Hailey Knight

ScytheRexx said:
Lots of the armors look stupid

And this is one of them.

Mar 18, 2012#347

ScytheRexx

Chen Stormstout, hell yeah.

Also a picture with the supposed Pandaren female leaked, but it seems a little fishy to me right now, so I am holding off showing it till I see the official one tomorrow.

Mar 18, 2012#348

Shegokigo

That pally gear looks amazing!

Mar 18, 2012#349

CynicismKills

That poor Gnome looks like a night-light and that pointed hat on the Worgen is silly. Otherwise the armor sets I can see look neat.

Mar 18, 2012#350

ScytheRexx

Interesting thing. I was talking with a friend I have from Europe. A long time ago I gave him my free copy of WoW so that I could RaF him on the US and get myself the rocket mount, only ended up playing it a bit before stopping, because he didn't want to buy WOTLK.

Well he asked me to throw him a SoR, which I told him would likely not work before he didn't own WOTLK, but I sent it anyways. He used it and found that it does not just give you Cataclysm, but if you didn't own WOTLK, it throws that in too so that you are up to Cataclysm level (makes sense, since it throws in a free 80 and you can't have an 80 without WOTLK).

He officially got the whole game with no other cost but the subscription fee. The bastard!

Mar 18, 2012#351

Shegokigo

Less than 5hrs till announcement time!

Mar 18, 2012#352

Bowielee

I guess I'm the only one that likes that armor set...

Mar 18, 2012#353

Shegokigo

Nope, I did too. I'm REALLY liking what I'm seeing from the armor sets so far.

Mar 18, 2012#354

Bowielee

I'd love to see an armor set based off of this:

'Course, that probably has more to do with my girl-crush on Hsein Ko.

Mar 18, 2012#355

ScytheRexx

If you guys wanted I could released some of the information now.

Mar 18, 2012#356

Shegokigo

Nope, I had alot of access to some of the info too, but I'm actually going to wait for it "officially". Much like the reveal at Blizzcon.

Mar 18, 2012#357

Bumble the Boy Wonder

Scythe, I apologize if you've explained it somewhere before, but I just have to know. Do you work for Blizzard or know someone that does? How the hell do you have so much inside information lol

Mar 18, 2012#358

ScytheRexx

I wish I knew a lot of people in Blizzard. No, my information is just from experience and knowing where to look.

Mar 19, 2012#359

Frankie Williamson

Neogaf.

Mar 19, 2012#360

Frankie Williamson

•No new race models are ready to be added yet.

Of course they aren't

Mar 19, 2012#361

ScytheRexx

All that means is we will likely get them in a patch. They need the new models to be the next Transmogrification, to hook people once the majority start getting bored with the content. This is a pretty common pattern with them.

Mar 19, 2012#362

ScytheRexx

So here are some of the highlights we learned today, the ones I am most interested in anyways.

- Female Pandaren
- Increased zone count from 5 to 7. We now have more choices where to level.
- 11th Character Slot added.
- New LFR Loot System that removes double RNG.
- AoE Looting.
- New Casual Dailies that allow you to own a farm, upgrade it, and use it to grow herbs or gifts to raise faction, etc..
- Increased usage of Glyphs, adding more cosmetic changes to Minor and some new cool features to Major. Some examples....

Glyph of Stars: Moonkin Form ability is replaced with Astral Form, conferring all the same benefits, but now appearing as an astrally enchanted version of your normal humanoid form.

Glyph of the Stag: Your Travel Form now appears as a Stag and can be used as a mount by party members.

Glyph of Righteous Retreat: During Divine Shield, you can invoke your Hearthstone 50% faster.

Glyph of the Luminous Charger: Your paladin class mounts glow with Holy Light.

Glyph of Fire From the Heavens: Your Judgment and Hammer of Wrath critical strikes call down fire from the sky.

Glyph of Counterspell: Your Counterspell can now be cast while casting or channeling other spells, but its cooldown is increased by 4 sec.

Mar 19, 2012#363

Adammon

Glyph of the Stag: Your Travel Form now appears as a Stag and can be used as a mount by party members.

:troll:

Mar 19, 2012#364

Gared

Do paladins finally not get skull fucked on the minor glyph front? Because our minor glyphs really, really suck, especially when compared to other classes' minor glyphs. Mages can get minor glyphs to change the appearance of their sheep spell, I can get a minor glyph to cut in half the mana cost of a spell I cast every 30 minutes, most of the time while not in combat. Really? That's my fucking glyph? I can't even get something fun, like changing the color of my paladin mount, or the look of my guardian of ancient kings (or whatever the hell that was called)? And hell, Warrior minor glyphs are actually useful for something. But no, I can save mana on some spells that only have to be cast every half a fuckin' hour.

Mar 19, 2012#365

ScytheRexx

If you look at some of the ones listed, they would only work as Minor Glyphs, like the one that brings back the Bubble Hearth, or the one that makes your class mount glow with more holy power.

There is also one that changes the design of your Judgement spell based on the weapon type you have equipped, there is one that makes you look huge while under Avenging Wrath, and another that gives you a slow fall effect while under Avenging Wrath.

Mar 19, 2012#366

Gared

ScytheRexx said:
If you look at some of the ones listed, they would only work as Minor Glyphs, like the one that brings back the Bubble Hearth, or the one that makes your class mount glow with more holy power.

There is also one that changes the design of your Judgement spell based on the weapon type you have equipped, there is one that makes you look huge while under Avenging Wrath, and another that gives you a slow fall effect while under Avenging Wrath.

Cool, didn't go through the full list (didn't even read the full list of what you posted), just wanted to throw that rant out there.

Mar 19, 2012#367

Piotyr

I really want to like this and enjoy playing again.

Mar 19, 2012#368

ScytheRexx

Piotyr said:
I really want to like this and enjoy playing again.

Well one thing to note is it's going to be a lot more like WOTLK then Cataclysm. They realized a lot of the faults in Cataclysm and are trying hard to correct them.

If you liked WOTLK, you will likely enjoy MoP. Leveling will be more varied with different zones to choose. Quests will not be as linear, instead relying on hubs again. Dungeons will be easier, as will Heroics, plus all the other things you can do, like the pet battle system, scenarios, and challenges. I also mentioned that farm you get to maintain, so that will cover the farmville lovers I guess.

Mar 19, 2012#369

Gared

I also mentioned that farm you get to maintain, so that will cover the farmville lovers I guess.

Yes, I saw that... right now I'm trying to find the codes to Skynet's orbital weapons platforms so I can nuke Blizzard HQ from orbit. First pokemon style battles with non-combat pets, now Farmville? What did we do to deserve this hell?

Mar 19, 2012#370

Dave

You either need to shut up or I need to get the hell out of this thread. And since it's a thread for WoW, I think it's up to me to mosey along...

Mar 19, 2012#371

ScytheRexx

Gared said:
Yes, I saw that... right now I'm trying to find the codes to Skynet's orbital weapons platforms so I can nuke Blizzard HQ from orbit. First pokemon style battles with non-combat pets, now Farmville? What did we do to deserve this hell?

Hey, I like the Pokemon style battles.

And frankly, from what I hear this farm is out in the middle of nowhere and requires a reputation to build up, and even then it won't be as horrible as farmville since everything is earned in game, no through a cash shop. I don't really plan to us it, but I don't see a problem with it.

Mar 19, 2012#372

Shegokigo

Bubble Hearth Glyph? Are you freakin kidding me?

Fire from the Heaven's going to be very visually "spammy" in raids considering Pally is currently the most played class in the game..

Mar 19, 2012#373

Gared

See, my issue is that, when I log into WoW, I want to play WoW, not Farmville. Besides, how can they give us enough space on the map (if there's going to be space on the map) for all of a server's Alliance and/or Horde population to have farms, but still deny us player owned housing?

Also, I'm concerned that they won't keep things as "earned through game." We already have a fuckton of mounts and pets that have to be purchased separately.

Mar 19, 2012#374

Dei

While I would try out Mists, all my friends quit playing WoW, my raiding guild stopped playing, and quite frankly, if I don't have people to play with on a pretty regular basis, and legit raiding to do in an MMO I get bored fast. (I also cannot go back to having to raid on an EST schedule, cause that shit got old.)

Mar 19, 2012#375

Dave

There's a great guild called Fusion on Ghostlands. They raid all the time, they're nice people and I think you'd be welcome.

Mar 19, 2012#376

Frankie Williamson

I can't fucking believe they are still blowing an old Everquest guild with names in WoW.

Mar 19, 2012#377

Shegokigo

Gared - It's not going to be a fully functioning farm as best I can tell. More like a daily quest hub that changes based on your decisions of reward. It's probably going to be phased to you based on your choices. Again this is 100% optional and will not have any effect on your gameplay on the whole.

Also, as long as the only things they offer through the "paid store" are "cosmetic" and not game changing, I could care less. If they ever do cross the line, I'd be done as well.

Mar 19, 2012#378

ScytheRexx

Gared said:
See, my issue is that, when I log into WoW, I want to play WoW, not Farmville. Besides, how can they give us enough space on the map (if there's going to be space on the map) for all of a server's Alliance and/or Horde population to have farms, but still deny us player owned housing?

Then play WoW?

Like I said, it's not going to be something there that you have to do. It's just another thing they are trying to add to increase options for people at the endgame. The farm is not going to take up a whole zone, it's basically a personally phased location, so everyone uses the same farm, but only you can see your farm materials or customization, the other players just vanish when they enter the phase radius.

I don't see a problem with options, as long as they are not required. I could do the dailies instead to gain the cloud serpent mount, or I don't. I can run heroics, or try some scenarios, or use the LFR, or join a battleground, do some pet battles, or try to do some dailies to customize that farm. They will likely not attach the farm to the store, as it's not supposed to be a big part of the game.

Mar 19, 2012#379

Shegokigo

I'm trying to figure out which of my "mains" to race change Panderan. So far the best sounding one so far are the Shadow-Pan. Hopefully subtley will be more viable in the "heroic" enviroment by the time I roll around to that.

As for the amazing new Paladin gear... it's such a pain I'm stuck with Tauren (Wouldn't go Blood Elf if you paid me) due to how badly most REALLY GOOD gear looks on them. Oh well.

Mar 19, 2012#380

ScytheRexx

One other interesting tidbit that only seemed to appear on wowhead.

Valor Points are redesigned. Justice will now be the regular currency for all purchased gear, while Valor will be used as a way to enhance gear. Example, I can do Heroics till I get enough Justice to buy a new helmet. I then take the Valor I earned through dailies or raids to increase the power of said helmet a couple of item levels until it becomes a heroic variation of the helmet.

It will be interesting to see how it works out, and if they will do a similar change to Conquest and Honor.

P.S I really like my Draenei Paladin, she fits probably the best for me out of all the paladin races. My Blood Elf Paladin is not that bad though, she looks great in judgement.

Mar 19, 2012#381

Gared

I know you're both right, and I know that this isn't going to be a big deal... it's just a knee jerk reaction I have to anything "Farmville-like" in nature. I'm not saying I'm not going to play anymore - hell, I'm not even saying I'm not going to use the farm thing. It's not like I've outright hated anything else they put in. I love the Plants vs. Zombies mini-game, and the new version of the fair, and LFR and LFD, and LFGuild, and I will probably love the farm and the pokemon battle thing... I just hate Zynga with a passion that burns so hot it can only be rivaled by the sun (because I got too easily addicted to Farmville and Frontierville, and the other 'ville style games and wasted months upon months of my life playing them) and can easily see myself losing all sense of time and being completely absorbed by my main time-sink's new time-sink.

Mar 19, 2012#382

Shegokigo

I much prefer Draenei over almost any race for PLD atm. They won't be on Horde side anytime soon though.

Side note: It's pretty much official my 11th slot will be for my Panderan Monk.

Mar 19, 2012#383

ScytheRexx

Shegokigo said:
Side note: It's pretty much official my 11th slot will be for my Panderan Monk.

It has to be my Pandaren Monk if I am going to stick to my 1 class per slot rule on my two servers.

Mar 19, 2012#384

CynicismKills

Frankie Williamson said:
I can't fucking believe they are still blowing an old Everquest guild with names in WoW.

Are you talking about that Fires From the Heavens glyph? I mean it's a little of a stretch to assume it's based on FoH, but then again isn't one of the big names on WoW an ex-FoH leader?

Looked it up and nope, it was Legacy of Steel apparently, which I don't remember much of. FoH tended to be the loudmouth when it came to raid content in EQ1.

Mar 20, 2012#385

ScytheRexx

Okay, this is rather odd...

Rumor: World of WarCraft on leaked Wii U eShop Launch List

How would it even work? Will the UI be on the touch screen and you tap the skills to use them? Be interesting if it is true.

P.S. Sources are saying MoP Beta will be starting this week or next.

Mar 20, 2012#386

Telephius

ScytheRexx said:
Okay, this is rather odd...

Rumor: World of WarCraft on leaked Wii U eShop Launch List

How would it even work? Will the UI be on the touch screen and you tap the skills to use them? Be interesting if it is true.

P.S. Sources are saying MoP Beta will be starting this week or next.

That company that pretty much carboned copied WoW was able to make their game play on the IPAD, my friend got it and surprisingly I was able to kill a level 1 boar without much trouble. Granted I would not want to arena with it.

Mar 20, 2012#387

ScytheRexx

Mar 20, 2012#388

ScytheRexx

Another update, it's been said that all character transfer services will be down tomorrow, I wonder what they might be setting up with the character transfer systems...

Jun 21, 2012#389

Bowielee

So, for the last few months I've been getting this Beta invite e-mail, but I'm not sure if it is legit, especially because my WoW account wasn't active at the time. It looks all official, but I know that there are a billion and one phishing scams for WoW so I'm smart enough not to click any links in the e-mail.

Question is, if this is legit, will it be indicated on my bnet account somewhere?

Jun 21, 2012#390

Shegokigo

Yeah you should see it in game client downloads.

Not sure about the main account be deactivated and still being able to play Beta though.

Jun 21, 2012#391

Bowielee

Oh, I re-upped my account to get my Druid up to lvl 80 (Thanks again for the scroll of resurrection, Ravenpoe !).

Jun 21, 2012#392

Shegokigo

Then yeah, just check to see if you can download the beta from your account page.

Jun 21, 2012#393

Bowielee

No, I'm only seeing the main client and the PTR client, so I'm going to go ahead and assume that it's a phishing e-mail.

Jun 21, 2012#394

Gared

They don't actually call it the MoP Beta in your account page, they just call it WoW Public Test 2, or some such.

Jun 21, 2012#395

Bowielee

Yeah, all I have is Public Test Realm Client. I could always download it and see.

Jun 21, 2012#396

DarkAudit

Sigh. Part of the reason I built that new desktop was to play Cat after I fried the old one trying to Hackintosh it. And then I lasted one time card's worth (if that) before I lost interest due to work keeping me out of the game when all of my old guild was playing. It's more of a solo game when you can only log in from 8-10am EST.

So I have no reasonable excuse for keeping the game installed, or updating it last week after who knows how long. I want to play, sort of, but I have no motivation to go out and get a new time card, or attach a new credit card to the account.

Sigh.

Jun 21, 2012#397

ScytheRexx

The last build has been buggy as hell, but I think it was likely just some errant code due to the Jade Forest revamp.

It seems that Blizzard felt the Jade Forest, being the entrance into Pandaria, was a little lite on giving the faction Pandaren some spotlight. They altered the entrance areas to now have Pandaren villages for each of the Pandaren disciplines. This means rather then a randomly constructed Alliance or Horde base in the zone, it will be us building fortresses among the Pandaren villages that share the factions discipline.

At least, that is how it seems, the zone is still offlimits and the only way we can see it has been Far Sight abuse and the new zone map.

For those that hate leveling, a new elixir has been datamined that increases EXP gain by 300% for 60 minutes. That puts it on par with the bonus given by RAF, though likely won't get the quest or dungeon completion EXP bonuses. No idea if it will be added to the game in the end, but right now rumors are it will be a new special recipe we can get through archaeology.

One of the big controversies is the inclusion of BiS (Best-In-Slot) raid gear to the Black Market Auction House. It only cycles the belt, bracers, and boots, and is hinted to be getting rings and necks, but won't have the actual tier gear. Some people hate it, saying it will force people to throw down loads of cash to be competitive in raiding or just reduce the quality or prestige of said items, while others support it, since it's the smaller items and will likely not cycle in the whole time. Personally, I think this was one of the biggest things needed on the BMAH. Without items that can essentially "expire" it wouldn't be a good consistent gold sink once the super rich exhaust all the mounts and pets.

Right now I have trouble playing, mostly because the lack of interface mods and the extreme amount of players causes almost instant respawn in some zones that overwhelm me. Add in the cross-realm zone bug that flags you for PVP and you get level 3 characters ganking all the level 90 using the MoP greens. :rage:

Jun 21, 2012#398

Gared

Yeah, I realized the first time I logged in to the Beta that I wouldn't be able to provide them with any useful feedback (not that they've been asking for it, really, since they removed the "send feedback" button) or get a decent feel for the gameplay, because I can't use my mods - and all I needed was friggin' bartender, so I could keep the visual representation of my Nostromo's key layout. Haven't touched it since.

Jun 26, 2012#399

ScytheRexx

For while there Blizzard was considering leaving some of the more expensive mounts, like the Motorcycles, Vial of the Sands, and Merchant Mounts (Mammoth, Yak) as character-only, not allowing them to be used by other characters through the new account-wide mounts system. They finally realized how much of a bad idea that was, so they have opened up the mounts to be account-wide. The only mounts that will not be account-wide, so they say, are the special gladiator reward mounts and class mounts.

Now is a good a time as any to buy one of those mammoths, just for the portable merchants. I know I am planning to get a Vial of the Sands now.

Jun 26, 2012#400

Shegokigo

I was pretty upset about the Motorcycle thing, although at this point I'm saving up for the grand Rhino Merchant mount thing. Portable reforger ftw.

Jun 26, 2012#401

SeraRelm

Is this thread about Kung-fu PokeWoW?! :awesome:

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