World of Warcraft: Mists of Panderia **RAAAAANT**
- Thread starter Shegokigo
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Shannow
Staff member
What was benign about a character who made a deal to eat Bilbo if he didnt win the riddle contest, and then, when he lost, tried to sneak off to get the ring to go invisible and then kill and eat him?
Added at: 21:23
Also, agreed.
Also, the Last Guardian features Garona,a nd it came out before Rise of the Horde too...
Added at: 10:25
I don't remember it very well, but i'm pretty sure after LotR was in th works Hobbit was slightly altered in that scene....
Yep, it was right the 2nd edition printing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_hobbit#Revisions
But unlike some of the stuff Blizzard's been pulling the changes are small and explained in universe... the proper way for a retcon to happen.
I think they did it properly in The Hobbit/LOTR as well, in that the first version of The Hobbit is based on how Bilbo told it originally, and then he later told the truth about what happened, which is the second version of The Hobbit. They mention this more than once in LOTR.
fade
Staff member
I think you missed the point. Shegokigo kept quoting Tolkien as something that would be odd to retcon, and my point was that it already had been. What I was saying was from the first edition before the retcon that was designed to emphasize how the magic ring had really been the One Ring all along. To quote wikipedia:
In the first edition of The Hobbit, Gollum willingly bets his magic ring on the outcome of the riddle-game, and he and Bilbo part amicably.[4]
Shannow
Staff member
No, I got the point. I was actually curious.
If he was a kid in 1937 then Dave has some competition...
Shannow
Staff member
Well no shit.
C
Chibibar
I think originally the argument was why Panderean can't be Death Knights. Most of us saying due current lore, they can't. then some how the argument becomes CAN Paderean be death knights? They can IF Blizzard change the lore. Will they? who knows. If enough people yammer loud enough or talk to the right people or something, I'm sure Paderean DK will come into light, but right now, initial release of MoP, there won't be because of the Lore in Place 
I understand both sides of the camp really. I guess when Blizzard initially release the Paderean race into WoW, at that point, it would have been perfect to retcon any stories to creating DK, but since they didn't (DK is not allow at this time) it would be much harder to retcon them in at later patches (IMO) The main reason is that the progression of the story.
That aside, I guess if we are going to continue to argue over this, we could go with "How can we make Panderean DK by changing the lore?" Now just saying a wizard did it would kinda break the lore since DK player class are different than your WC3 DK (they are souless)
One way I think they could do it is via the time portal (which already exist)
I understand both sides of the camp really. I guess when Blizzard initially release the Paderean race into WoW, at that point, it would have been perfect to retcon any stories to creating DK, but since they didn't (DK is not allow at this time) it would be much harder to retcon them in at later patches (IMO) The main reason is that the progression of the story.
That aside, I guess if we are going to continue to argue over this, we could go with "How can we make Panderean DK by changing the lore?" Now just saying a wizard did it would kinda break the lore since DK player class are different than your WC3 DK (they are souless)
One way I think they could do it is via the time portal (which already exist)
figmentPez
Staff member
The picture's funny, but I clicked the link and his editorial is all kinds of stupid.
There are at least three things wrong with this sentence that I can spot, and I wouldn't be shocked if other people found others.
1. Not Kung Fu Panda.
2. WoW is not based on the kind of fantasy genre used in JRR Tolken, which was high fantasy. Nothing about silly steampunk goblins, dapper werewolves, a portal to another world, shamanistic orcs, and probably a million other examples is remotely related to Middle-Earth.
3. JRR Tolken did not create fantasy, and even if he drew certain elements together, he certainly didn't make them up.
Stupid, stupid--almost so stupid that I think he's trying to get a rise out of people. Those latter two are more egregious to me than the Kung Fu Panda thing.
EDIT: Found another--acting like Pandarens have never been present in the game before when we had the mercenary hero in WC3.
I'm sick of Blizzard making up lame ret cons to make sure they get a DK fit for every race.I think originally the argument was why Panderean can't be Death Knights. Most of us saying due current lore, they can't. then some how the argument becomes CAN Paderean be death knights? They can IF Blizzard change the lore. Will they? who knows. If enough people yammer loud enough or talk to the right people or something, I'm sure Paderean DK will come into light, but right now, initial release of MoP, there won't be because of the Lore in Place
I understand both sides of the camp really. I guess when Blizzard initially release the Paderean race into WoW, at that point, it would have been perfect to retcon any stories to creating DK, but since they didn't (DK is not allow at this time) it would be much harder to retcon them in at later patches (IMO) The main reason is that the progression of the story.
That aside, I guess if we are going to continue to argue over this, we could go with "How can we make Panderean DK by changing the lore?" Now just saying a wizard did it would kinda break the lore since DK player class are different than your WC3 DK (they are souless)
One way I think they could do it is via the time portal (which already exist)
This is what I miss about Vanilla WoW. The classes and races made sense. Well for the most part. I still to this day HATE the concept of a gnome warrior being as strong as -say- a Tauren one.
The MMO structure was based around the lore, and not the other way around like it is today. My biggest beef is with the Paladins. Just because a race makes sense to have a priest doesn't make it ok to have Paladins. They're a strictly human/Dwarf discipline. I can buy the space goats. Tauren should not be Paladins. Period. Blood Elves had a lame story as to why they had Paladins - that is still lame.
The most ridiculous ret con is Night Elves use of magic. Ok guys, we banished our High Elve brothers and sisters 10,000 years ago for wanting to continue using magic due to its destructive nature, one of our main leaders went mad in search of magical power and turned himself into a powerful demon; and for those 10,000 years we've built a society and culture based around druidism and nature worship. LAWL Burning Legion might be gone - LETS ROCK AND ROLL MAGES!
The ONLY ONLY ONLY class changes that make any sense are Humans- Hunter (cause come on it was stupid to never include this).
I don't understand the above article. Padereans fit perfectly into Warcraft lore. Warcraft was completely removed from any sort of serious high fantasy with the release of Warcraft II. I can understand basing that article's commentary on Warcraft I, which had a more serious, simple plot progression and characters. But the problem is that ever since Warcraft II was released, the series has always included things like anthropomorphic pandas, steam technology, and goofy easter eggs.
This a hundred times.
fade
Staff member
I don't quite get "Panderans came first, so they can't have anything to do with Kung Fu Panda." Why? That's not logical unless the original Panderans were more or less the same as they are being described for the new release when they were originally conceived. Otherwise, there certainly seems to be some cross-polination, since the Panderans seem to have a lot of Po's powers and abilities. Just because something technically came first doesn't mean the new incarnation can't borrow heavily from something that happened in between.
DISCLAIMER: I know nothing about the original Panderans. I'm only going on what I've read in this thread.
DISCLAIMER: I know nothing about the original Panderans. I'm only going on what I've read in this thread.
The original Panderan Brewmaster: http://www.wowwiki.com/Pandaren_Brewmaster
I will also add my hate to this thought. I went into fits of nerd rage when they mentioned Night Elf mages. And anytime one of my friends were like "Well they were in hiding", I was like NO GOD DAMNIT THE ONES WHO LEFT TO PRACTICE MAGIC LOOK DIFFERENT FOR A REASON AND ARE CALLED HIGH ELVES AND BLOOD ELVES. GOD DAMNIT &*)%&@*)%&@)*%&)@*%&)@*&%)*@&%)@. This went on for awhile. I usually don't lore nerd rage but this made me so mad.
The original Pandaren since the time of the first April Fools Joke, were said to be a friendly people that loved food and beer. They would drink and celebrate as a way to commune with spirits. They also had the round form, but were considered light on their feet for their frame. The RPG also went into greater cultural detail.
Back when Kung Fu Panda came out, I was probably one of the few that had it specifically remind me of the Pandaren, more specifically since the Brewmaster is always fresh on my mind from WC3:TFT.
The only thing that I find a very obvious KFP reference is the "Bouncy" racial, because they never said anything in the past about Pandaren being able to bouncy when they fall, and that was kind of one of Po's unique traits.
Dei, you are forgetting the Shen'dralar, which are the ones implied to have joined with the greater Night Elf culture once again based on the information gained in the pre-cata events, and always retained their Night Elf looks. If you forget they are the Night Elf Magi that lived in Dire Maul for the last 10,000 years, and we used to turn in various tomes for head enchants back in vanilla. They were actually used often in player argument that the Night Elves should have a Mage option, looks like those guys won.
High Elves changed skin color due to both magic and cultural changes. When they constructed Silvermoon they decided as part of distancing themselves from the Night Elves, that they would cast out the nocturnal nature and instead live during the day. It was over time they started developing a lighter pigment and smaller frame due to using magic for all work, something even the Night Elves didn't do as they had a much more rigid caste system with only the elite being allowed to utilize magic.
The Night Elves on the flip side were once Trolls, but they went through their mutation when they found the Well of Eternity and started the practice of magic, it was actually magic usage that first made them Night Elves.
I agree that bringing in Night Elf Mages was pretty stupid in the end, and takes away a bit of their cultural heritage. I just wanted to correct a mistake in the line of reasoning.
Um, why? Draenei were very much a part of Azeroth's main cultural races when the Lich King came a-calling. They were VERY much slaughtered during the attacks on the main Alliance city by the Lich King's forces.
I said Draenei when I meant Worgen. That's my mistake. I guess you could say that they're sons of Arugal worgen or something like that, but aren't worgen immune to the plague? They mention that a few times in Silverpine.
Doesn't matter either way, Blizzard can't get their stories straight often enough.
Doesn't matter either way, Blizzard can't get their stories straight often enough.
Yeah, the way they explained Worgen/Goblin DeathKnights was that if you choose either race, you don't come from the Gilnean worgen or Kezan goblins, instead you're a fallen Arugal worgen or Steamwheedle goblin. Since you start at 55, you never have those starting experiences that would tie you in with those factions. The difference with Panderan is that they were completely unknown to Azeroth until post Cataclysm.
That is exactly what they did. When you reach the "friend" you are forced to kill, he talks about how the two of you escaped the grasp of Arugal and went off to adventure long before the Cataclysm, only for you to get captured by the Scourge. Be aware they also altered the storyline to imply that Pyrewood Village used to be Gilnean territory until Genn Greymane abandoned it on the other side of the Greymane Wall, thus why the Worgen under Arugal would retain the Gilnean accents which in turn are used by the DK worgen.
Worgen are immune to the plague as they are no longer humans, but the plague is not even utilized in the creation of the players death knights. They are raised from the Lich King channeling his powers through his Necromancers at Acherus, which you can watch if you walk around after first making your player character, as you can see other death knights be raised from corpse carriers. When it comes to the Forsaken in Silverpine, that is a completely different can of worms. If you want a bit more information, the Val'kyr were given power to raise from the dead those of vrykul or vrykul-decent, which includes humans.
Crowley learned that when you become a worgen, you technically stop being "human" thus the immunity to the plague and the val'kyr. At the time the Val'kyr started working for Sylvanas, and were turning the refugees of Hillsbrad into more Forsaken. He gave his blood to transform what remained of the refugees, thus making him immune to them being raised by such a method. Quests in Silverpine explain this "handicap" of the Val'kyr and make it a plot point, as they point out the 7th Legion sent an army of all the alliance races minus humans, as to prevent some of their best soldiers being turned over to the side of the Forsaken.
Once again though, the worgen death knights were raised by the power of the Lich King channeled through his necromancers at Acherus (as the events happen in the past before Arthas is killed), and he can raise anyone he wants, regardless of race. No plague or val'kyr were involved.
One last note about pandaren death knights. The reason we don't have them is not just because of timeline issues, but Metzen made it clear at BlizzCon he didn't want the Pandaren to have "evil" classes. This is the reason they don't have warlocks either. They only have rogues due to the Shado-pan, which are are a ninja like clan that fights evil. Otherwise it's all the more neutral classes.
I don't see why races with Priests have to automatically have Paladins. One is a spiritual follower, another wears armor and smashes evil, and arguably requires more discipline. Just because a race follows a deity, doesn't mean they automatically have a military following as well. (The thought of a militant armored branch of the church of Elune seems really weird to me as an example. It's one thing to have an army that believes in Elune, it's a whole other ball of wax to have dedicated paladins fighting in her name. Night Elf priests tend to be more ranger-like if anything.)
I liked it when only the Alliance had Paladians and only the Horde had Shamans...
Priests are considered neutral because they all actually share very different methods of worship that fall on many sides of the coin.
The Night Elves worship Elune.
The Humans, Dwarves, and Draenei worship the Light.
The Tauren worship the An'she, which is considered an extension of the Earthmother.
The Forsaken worship the Forgotten Shadow.
The Trolls worship the primal Loa Gods.
Gnomes don't worship anything, they are supposed to be using the powers as a field medic sort of system.
The issue with Paladins, at least till recently, was they were much more rigid in faith and conviction. All Paladins worshiped the Light in some form, even the Blood Elves stole Light power from the Naaru until their own faith was reignited at the end of TBC, which made them official paladins. The Tauren are what throw a wrench into the whole thing, as they now have "paladins" but based on another faith that only has possible ties to the Light. Personally, I think they should have made a sect of Forsaken Paladins that fight for good but carry a dark form of sadism, since the Light hurts them constantly.
See, that's exactly what I mean. Paladin is not longer about "divine guardian of the Light". I also have NO problem with that and am GLAD they're expanding on the idea. So then where are the:
Night Elf Elune Paladins
Forsaken Forgotten Shadow Paladins
Troll Loa God Paladin
Gnome Field Medic Paladin.
You can't have priest + warrior in a race and not have a Paladin. It's freakin driving me insane.
Does the vile, murder happy, violent Shego play a Paladin? Damn right. It's easily one of the most overpowered classes in the game (with exception of Death Knight) and can slip into any role required by a raid (Tank/Healer/Dps). It's also insanely powerful in PVP battlegrounds and Arenas. Why am I so pissed off? Cause I'm tired of having this vapid headed, toothpicked bimbo as my "Might Tank/Dps" character taking on Dragons and Demi Gods. My only other choice?
My favorite character? My Forsaken Death Knight. I'd give ANYTHING to Race Change my Paladin to Forsaken.
Night Elf Elune Paladins
Forsaken Forgotten Shadow Paladins
Troll Loa God Paladin
Gnome Field Medic Paladin.
You can't have priest + warrior in a race and not have a Paladin. It's freakin driving me insane.
Does the vile, murder happy, violent Shego play a Paladin? Damn right. It's easily one of the most overpowered classes in the game (with exception of Death Knight) and can slip into any role required by a raid (Tank/Healer/Dps). It's also insanely powerful in PVP battlegrounds and Arenas. Why am I so pissed off? Cause I'm tired of having this vapid headed, toothpicked bimbo as my "Might Tank/Dps" character taking on Dragons and Demi Gods. My only other choice?
My favorite character? My Forsaken Death Knight. I'd give ANYTHING to Race Change my Paladin to Forsaken.
Healing is so out of control in PvP.
I just leveled a fresh shaman and was doing some pvp with my old crew. I had 0 resilience, was still decked out in leveling gear and I was playing decoy to greedy alliance who see my shoulders and instantly think easy kill. I was dancing in the middle of WSG spamming laugh while 5 people were just open seasoning on me while my friend sat back about 20 yards away (behind a bush she said) spamming heals on me. This lasted an entire minute before someone wised up. We got an easy flag capture out of it.
It was hilarious.
I just leveled a fresh shaman and was doing some pvp with my old crew. I had 0 resilience, was still decked out in leveling gear and I was playing decoy to greedy alliance who see my shoulders and instantly think easy kill. I was dancing in the middle of WSG spamming laugh while 5 people were just open seasoning on me while my friend sat back about 20 yards away (behind a bush she said) spamming heals on me. This lasted an entire minute before someone wised up. We got an easy flag capture out of it.
It was hilarious.
GasBandit
Staff member
Heh, what you are describing often happened in Nordenwatch, the lowest level battleground (called "scenario") in Warhammer Online. There are multiple bushes at the "fortress" flag, and it's very common for a dwarf runepriest or goblin shaman to hide inside these bushes, healing their brains out.
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