Shannow
Staff member
Thats about it. And, makes sense for not Panderan DKs. Though...give it time, they will eventually retcon them in.
World of Warcraft: Mists of Panderia **RAAAAANT**
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Disconnected
nicely convenient! ;D Wizards!
Arthas empowered one of his lieutenants to travel the world in search of powerful artifacts. One crashed into Pandaria and, unable to return and without access to his usual armies, began raising pandaren DKs to help him conquer the new and mysterious land.
Jesus people, it's fiction; the laws of "WE CANNOT POSSIBLY DO THIS" do not apply.
Jesus people, it's fiction; the laws of "WE CANNOT POSSIBLY DO THIS" do not apply.
Wowwiki Lore:
The original death knights were created for Orgrim Doomhammer by Gul'dan as powerful soldiers of the Horde. These death knights were created by placing the souls of the slain warlocks of the Shadow Council into the corpses of fallen Stormwind knights, the first of whom was Teron Gorefiend. Unlike modern death knights of the Scourge, these ghoulish fiends were not battle hardened warriors; they were insidious necromancers who possessed superior intellect and tremendous magical power. They often favored the use of terror tactics and reanimated the corpses of enemy soldiers who fell in battle to serve them as mindless undead minions.
Most of these death knights were destroyed during and after the Second War, either killed by the Alliance or transformed into liches by Kil'jaeden.
Champions of the Lich King
EditYears after the destruction of Draenor, the immensely powerful Lich King created a new breed of death knights: malevolent, rune-wielding warriors of the Scourge. The first and greatest of these was the Lich King's chosen champion, Prince Arthas Menethil, once a mighty paladin of the Silver Hand, who sacrificed his soul to claim the runeblade Frostmourne in a desperate bid to save his people. The rest are primarily made up of other fallen paladins whose souls were twisted and bound to the will of the Frozen Throne [2].
Unlike Gul'dan's death knights, these dark champions do not possess free will and their minds are inexorably entwined with and dominated by the Lich King's vast consciousness. Despite the heavy costs of free will, some powerful mortals are intrigued by the promise of immortality and pledge their souls freely into the Lich King's service to achieve it. (Baron Rivendare is an example of this).
In the years since Arthas shattered the Frozen Throne and merged with the Lich King, the power and fury of the death knights has only grown. Now these unrelenting crusaders of the damned eagerly await the Lich King's command to unleash their fury on Azeroth once again. Unlike death knights of the Old Horde, the Scourge's death knights are not limited to their use of ranged spell casting abilities. However, both generations are equally destructive and terrifying to engage in the field of battle.[3]
Sorry, no points for you. Blizzard's already fucked once with Death Knight lore; they can (And will) do it again.
@Ada - I hope you're VERY aware that the "Death" Knights that Gul'dan raised and the ones being played today are NOT even remotely the same thing right?
The first set were just animated corpses with the souls of different warriors in them. The current set of Death Knights are raised soldiers of the Lich King that still retain their soul. Also the "Death" Knights that Gul'dan raised required a huge ceremony of many participants even though he was the most powerful warlock on the planet.
Not exactly "some random lieutenant that washed up on Panderia" could accomplish.
The first set were just animated corpses with the souls of different warriors in them. The current set of Death Knights are raised soldiers of the Lich King that still retain their soul. Also the "Death" Knights that Gul'dan raised required a huge ceremony of many participants even though he was the most powerful warlock on the planet.
Not exactly "some random lieutenant that washed up on Panderia" could accomplish.
I still can't believe they stole the idea for Turtle Island from Avatar: The Last Airbender...
/teehee
/teehee
I know you're not dense, so I presume you're just purposefully ignoring the proof.
I know you're not dense, so I presume you're just purposefully missing the point.
If you think I'm defending Blizzard to be infallible, you're dead wrong. I've been bitching for a long damn time that Forsaken can be Priests but not Paladins and their answer is total bullshit or that Panderean can be Priests but not Paladins.
I'm just saying, they have valid reasons for not having Panderean Death Knights, and just saying "Oh some dude washed ashore" or "some wizard did it" isn't a valid enough reason to change that.
The Lich King is not going back in time to create DKs, YOU the player are seeing the "past" when you create a Death Knight all the way to the completion of Light's Hope Chapel. After the event is finished, you are now in "current time".
There is no proof, only Zul.
Validity isn't, for lack of a better word, valid, when the rules have already change once around Death Knights. Who's to say that now that Pandarens are discovered, the new Lich King hopes to swell his ranks with a bouncing bear contigent. Absolutely nothing besides some kind of 'rule' that you've pulled out of the ether.
Validity isn't, for lack of a better word, valid, when the rules have already change once around Death Knights. Who's to say that now that Pandarens are discovered, the new Lich King hopes to swell his ranks with a bouncing bear contigent. Absolutely nothing besides some kind of 'rule' that you've pulled out of the ether.
C
Chibibar
well other than "At this time" there are no DK Pandas 
until Blizzard changes the rules. The current lore is valid.
until Blizzard changes the rules. The current lore is valid.There seems to be a plague of missing the point going around. Vaccinations for everyone!well other than "At this time" there are no DK Pandas
The argument isn't "Should there be Panda DKs?", it is "Can there be Panda DKs?"
C
Chibibar
currently, They can't.
Cause the Pandarean wasn't discover during time of the Lich King "at this time" and also the Death Knight were fallen heroes. Up until MoP, there wasn't any Panda heroes during the Lich King story line in WoW.
So.... No, there CAN'T be any Panda DK. again. At this time until Blizzard somehow retcon in Panda heroes during the time of the Lich King to create Panda DKs.
Edit: this is what Shego is trying to say so you are missing the point also. Panderan was just "discover" in the MoP expansion.
Now of course you "could" integrate WC3 into the lore, but not sure how will that pan out (I'm not verse in that so I can't say) there was a quest for it so maybe a couple of lost "panda" could be DK. BUT
Currently all lores are tied into WoW only not Warcraft 1 - 3 lore (some did make into WoW). So until Blizzard retcon in Panda in Azeroth prior to Cataclysm event, then sure you can have Panda DK
Added at: 17:17
anything can be RetCon if done properly. I mean if Blizzard wants to introduce Lizardmen 2 years from now and wanting them to be DK, sure, Blizzard just need to figure out a way how to get Lizardmen into the world prior to the Cataclysm (basically retcon upto Lich King)
The Kobold and Goblins could be DK (I don't know if they could again I quit playing even I did get CE cata) since those are already in game since day one.
I'm a blizzard exec. I tell the devs or lorekeepers/ writers, I want DK pandas. Fordragon is the new lich right?currently, They can't.
Cause the Pandarean wasn't discover during time of the Lich King "at this time" and also the Death Knight were fallen heroes. Up until MoP, there wasn't any Panda heroes during the Lich King story line in WoW.
So.... No, there CAN'T be any Panda DK. again. At this time until Blizzard somehow retcon in Panda heroes during the time of the Lich King to create Panda DKs.
Edit: this is what Shego is trying to say so you are missing the point also. Panderan was just "discover" in the MoP expansion.
Now of course you "could" integrate WC3 into the lore, but not sure how will that pan out (I'm not verse in that so I can't say) there was a quest for it so maybe a couple of lost "panda" could be DK. BUT
Currently all lores are tied into WoW only not Warcraft 1 - 3 lore (some did make into WoW). So until Blizzard retcon in Panda in Azeroth prior to Cataclysm event, then sure you can have Panda DK
Added at: 17:17
anything can be RetCon if done properly. I mean if Blizzard wants to introduce Lizardmen 2 years from now and wanting them to be DK, sure, Blizzard just need to figure out a way how to get Lizardmen into the world prior to the Cataclysm (basically retcon upto Lich King)
The Kobold and Goblins could be DK (I don't know if they could again I quit playing even I did get CE cata) since those are already in game since day one.
OMG BLIZZ RELEASED NEW CONTENT PATCH -- New Lich King invades the Mists of Pandara. Hell, the new Undead apothecary guy makes a potion of undeath after discovering the Lich Kings secrets from a found shard of his old sword.
It's fiction. They're the writers. The beauty of it is, they can do whatever the fuck they want. If they want to retcon DK pandas they will.
No, they can't. The rules have been established. It'd be like the Enterprise doing the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs.
fade
Staff member
You're the one not getting the point. I'm not saying it "can't be done" I'm saying that they've set a rule that says why it won't be done in Mists of Panderia.
Anything "can be done" but that doesn't mean that the current rules in place can be completely ignored either. "Oh shit, Frodo started firing One Rings out of his ass, um, because he can, I just wrote that so it's cannon now, regardless of the previous established lore/rules".
Remember how in the Warcraft 3 book, the Draenei corrupted Sargaren, and then when they put them in WoW, Sargaren corrupted the Draenei?
Yeah, it's like that.
Yeah, it's like that.
You're arguing that they can't (Or won't) change it based on some ethereal rule, I'm arguing that they can (Or could) based on the fact that they've broken 'rules' in the past.
You're arguing that they shouldn't, I couldn't care less if they did.
The only rule in retcons is how imaginative a solution can I come up with that people will believe.
Or, in the immortal words of Ian Malcolm:
"Life, uh, finds a way."
You've moved the goalposts. I've been saying "They'll find a way" and you've been saying, AND I QUOTE BECAUSE GOD FORBID I PUT SOMETHING IN YOUR MOUTH "I'm saying that they've set a rule that says why it won't be done in Mists of Panderia."
We're in agreement, a Wizard will do it.
You're not the creator of that particular story. If JRR Tolkien would rise from the grave and start writing again, you bet your ass that anything he added to Lord of the Rings would be considered cannon.
Whatever you need to tell yourself to walk away from this conversation.
@Mathias: Yes, and until Tolkien does it, the rules he put forth remain the same. A 3rd party walking by saying "Omg, he could add rocket assholes to hobbits, WELL HE COULD IF A WIZARD DID IT!" doesn't mean it can't be done, just means until the lore is changed, it won't. The lore is there whether the 3rd party wants it to be or not.
Exactly.
Guys, calm down, this is a simple deal.
Blizzard has done retcons in the past, and they always get crap for them. They got a lot of crap when Worgen and Goblin were going to be given Death Knight, so much so that they had to write into the story that the Worgen DKs were those that escaped Arugal and lived among the Worgen of Silverpine (Aka, Shadowfang Keep Worgen).
They are attempting to stick to the lore because they never wanted to give the Pandaren evil classes. They consider the Pandaren to be extremely jovial and not prone to corruption. One of the storylines going into the new expansion is that all the dark, negative energy the Horde and Alliance are bringing onto the island are literally manifesting into shadow creatures. This is one of the reasons Pandaren are also not getting warlocks.
Can Blizzard make up an excuse for a Pandaren Death Knight? Yes they can. The fact remains they don't want to, because not only would they get tons of shit for it, but it also does not mesh with how they want the Pandaren to be portrayed. It's a pretty simple outlook.
Casual is someone like me. I don't raid, I run heroics and other general content which are designed for the "average" player. I don't have a lot of gold, nor do I go out to extensively farm anything. I got a lot of characters, but that is just because I enjoy the leveling experience, which a hardcore would consider a "cake walk". I do dailies because they are relaxing and easy.
Yes, I have met casual players that have not even level to 85 because they only play once a month, but those guys are considered extreme casual. If anyone saw me in the game and looked at my achievements, they would call me casual at best, or a "omg noob" at worst because I don't invest the time or energy to care about being the best and logging on every waking moment I am home.
Blizzard has done retcons in the past, and they always get crap for them. They got a lot of crap when Worgen and Goblin were going to be given Death Knight, so much so that they had to write into the story that the Worgen DKs were those that escaped Arugal and lived among the Worgen of Silverpine (Aka, Shadowfang Keep Worgen).
They are attempting to stick to the lore because they never wanted to give the Pandaren evil classes. They consider the Pandaren to be extremely jovial and not prone to corruption. One of the storylines going into the new expansion is that all the dark, negative energy the Horde and Alliance are bringing onto the island are literally manifesting into shadow creatures. This is one of the reasons Pandaren are also not getting warlocks.
Can Blizzard make up an excuse for a Pandaren Death Knight? Yes they can. The fact remains they don't want to, because not only would they get tons of shit for it, but it also does not mesh with how they want the Pandaren to be portrayed. It's a pretty simple outlook.
Once again, the term casual can change from one person to the next, but I am going off the term as we use it in WoW. "Hardcore" players are those that raid every night, doing it for hours and usually get the best rewards, run dailies, rated battlegrounds, arenas, work the auction house, have 200,000g, etc... They are the people that spend nearly ever minute on the game trying to beat everything there is to beat, have mammoths and protodrakes and frost wyrm mounts and stand around in full tier gear.
Casual is someone like me. I don't raid, I run heroics and other general content which are designed for the "average" player. I don't have a lot of gold, nor do I go out to extensively farm anything. I got a lot of characters, but that is just because I enjoy the leveling experience, which a hardcore would consider a "cake walk". I do dailies because they are relaxing and easy.
Yes, I have met casual players that have not even level to 85 because they only play once a month, but those guys are considered extreme casual. If anyone saw me in the game and looked at my achievements, they would call me casual at best, or a "omg noob" at worst because I don't invest the time or energy to care about being the best and logging on every waking moment I am home.
Not sure what you mean by this. Orcs have had females since the franchise was created. How did you think they reproduced?
GasBandit
Staff member
There were no female orcs portrayed in Warcraft 1 or 2. The first mention of female orcs that I was able to find was in a 2006 novel, "Rise of the Horde." This is consistent with the original source matter for warcraft being Warhammer, in which greenskins ALSO do not have any females - they reproduce through fungal budding, the spores released when an orc suffers physical trauma.
That novel post-dates WoW (2004) which had female orcs as a starting option.
You are wrong on most counts.
First, you are correct about Warhammer being the original basis of WarCraft. However, Blizzard needed to make sure that when the deal was cancelled for them to make the Warhammer game, that they could come up with a story that allowed them to utilize the assets they had while not getting sued. Much of this was changing the entire method at which the orcs existed.
Second, you are wrong on both counts involving orc females. The first orc female to appear in WarCraft was shown in WarCraft 1. Her name was Grizelda, and she was the daughter of Blackhand, the leader of the orcs at the time. There is a mission that involves killing her, because she ran off to be with her love, the ogre renegade named Turok.
We also had Garona, a female half-orc that showed the orcs and humans (later retconned to Draenei due to timeline changes) were able to sire children together. You would know both of these things if you played WarCraft 1.
Even taking that into account, you are also incorrect about the novel. Rise of the Horde was released in 2006, which is well after the release of Lord of the Clans in 2001. Lord of the Clans started with the story of Thrall's birth at the hand of Durotan and Draka, a orc couple that was exiled into the Alterac Mountains with their clan, the Frostwolves. That was the first novelization appearance of the female orc in the series.
Sorry Gas, but you are mistaken.
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