World of Warcraft: Mists of Panderia **RAAAAANT**

[Frank]

My dance/laugh macro is SHOCKINGLY effective at taunting Alliance off of doing something useful. Like 60% effective. PvP decoy is some of the most fun I've ever had in PvP. I'm not kidding, apparently my crew says the win percentage since we started doing this in BGs is significantly better.

Me, dancing, laughing, Earthbind totem.

Ha ha ha.

Also, Thunderstorm in Eye of the Storm and Arathi Basin is the best thing in video games.

Sorry for posting this shit in this thread. It could have gone in the other WoW thread.

 

[ScytheRexx]

Heh, what you are describing often happened in Nordenwatch, the lowest level battleground (called "scenario") in Warhammer Online. There are multiple bushes at the "fortress" flag, and it's very common for a dwarf runepriest or goblin shaman to hide inside these bushes, healing their brains out.

Thing about the healers in WoW is, if you are decent, you don't have to hide.

I have fought healers that can distract half a team just by keeping themselves alive in the middle of a fight. I lost an AB once because a troll shaman healed himself while dancing around the stables while 7 guys tried to kill him. He did that for a cool five minutes, costing us all the other bases because none of our caps had any extra support. Usually I can handle some healers like priests and sometimes paladins, it's the druids and shaman I hate because they have such ridiculous mobility. Thankfully my wife and I worked out some tricks to really mess them up.

Also, Thunderstorm in Eye of the Storm and Arathi Basin is the best thing in video games.

You think this is bad, wait till in Mists of Pandaria when every druid, whether healer, boomkin, or cat, is going to have Typhoon. I swear, LM in AB is going to be very interesting.

 

[Shegokigo]

Well, there are actually troll paladins, in Cannon. A couple, anyways.

Can't tell you how many Undead Argent Crusaders there are too. Been driving me up the wall since Vanilla Naxx was around.

 

[ScytheRexx]

Can't tell you how many Undead Argent Crusaders there are too. Been driving me up the wall since Vanilla Naxx was around.

Like I said, I would have loved undead paladins, but I don't think all the races should get them just because they have priests. We do still need some unique combos, and paladins always felt more interesting as one of the rarer combos with druids, due to the hyper-hybrid nature.

So since I am bored at work I decided to try out the new talent calculator for MoP. I already made a druid spec I am going to loath in WSG or Twin Peaks.

http://www.wowhead.com/mists-of-pandaria-talent-calculator#dJd

 

[Shegokigo]

See, that just stinks of "not trying". At least with Panderan/Goblin/Worgen Death Knights being denied, they bothered giving a real explanation.

No Forsaken Paladins? Just a *shrug* and a shake of the head.

 

[ScytheRexx]

No Forsaken Paladins? Just a *shrug* and a shake of the head.

Well not exactly, they did give a reason. Basically the Light hurts the Forsaken, when they use the power it feels like they are being burned by fire, whether they cast it or someone else casts it on them. Though it does "heal" the wounds it's supposed to be incredibly painful for them and only the most sadist consider becoming priests.

The difference is that Priest calls on the powers of the Light on occasion, while the Paladin, as part of their design, are supposed to almost always be flowing with it like a righteous fire. A Forsaken who attempts to take on the teachings would be in constant agonizing pain.

When asked if they could get a "dark paladin" instead, Blizzard pretty much said that is what the Death Knight is.

Like I said I still agree that Forsaken Paladins would have been great, but they did put a clear reason in the lore why they don't exist.

 

[Shegokigo]

Lore says the call on the Light occassionally, my raiding/pvp life says they don't stop channeling that shit like it's god damn ambrosia.

I'll gladly take a sadist Paladin. Doesn't have to be "Dark" or Death Knight. Also that Lore explanation doesn't explain the IN LORE Argent Crusade Forsaken.

 

[Shannow]

I just love trolls. Favorite race since the beginning. And when they said they were expanding Paladin races, I was reeeeeaaaaallly hoping for the troll one, since one of the first Argent crusader paladins that was trained was a troll.

 

[Ravenpoe]

I've been wanting a forsaken paladin since before the game came out. It was my planned first class. Just from an arpee sense, I love the idea.

 

[Shegokigo]

I just love trolls. Favorite race since the beginning. And when they said they were expanding Paladin races, I was reeeeeaaaaallly hoping for the troll one, since one of the first Argent crusader paladins that was trained was a troll.

My troll mage was wicked awesome. Raided with it in Icecrown. I'd put them in my top 5 races without a doubt.

 

[ScytheRexx]

I'll gladly take a sadist Paladin. Doesn't have to be "Dark" or Death Knight. Also that Lore explanation doesn't explain the IN LORE Argent Crusade Forsaken.

One curiosity, but what Forsaken Paladins are you speaking about? The Argent Crusade itself is not a paladin exclusive faction, and actually allows in many other classes and creeds. They have warriors, mages, rogues, and other groups. The only well known Forsaken in the organization I can think of is Leonid the Revered, who is a warrior, Captain Rupert, who is a soldier and engineer, and Finklestien, who is the chief alchemist. The other Forsaken I remember seeing were all vendors, so we never got to know what class, if any, they were considered.

The most I remember seeing was the skeletal paladins in Icecrown after the attack from the Argent Vanguard, and they actually had the skills altered to say things like "Unholy Light" rather then "Holy Light". They also worked for the Lich King, so not really Forsaken.

I just love trolls. Favorite race since the beginning. And when they said they were expanding Paladin races, I was reeeeeaaaaallly hoping for the troll one, since one of the first Argent crusader paladins that was trained was a troll.

Kind of curious where you heard this, hope you don't mean Zabra Hex, as he learned to become a Priest. I don't remember doing any quests in Northrend that involved a Troll learning the paladin craft, maybe I missed it.

The only known troll paladins in lore were not really paladins, but a sect of trolls in the past called the Freethinkers, who stood up to their faith and convictions even when the rest of the trolls went down a darker pathways. The Freethinkers are all gone now, having been killed off through war and strife, as they were considered heathens among the trolls, but the Zandalar honored them for their strength and bravery when facing certain death.

 

[Shannow]

yeah, i know I was first thinking of the Freethinkers, which were a full religious sect of trolls in the empire that went against Hakkar. And I mustve confulsed Zabra Hex with it.

 

[ScytheRexx]

yeah, i know I was first thinking of the Freethinkers, which were a full religious sect of trolls in the empire that went against Hakkar. And I mustve confulsed Zabra Hex with it.

Zabra Hex is still a weirdo. His story as a priest starts just after the Third War, when the Scarlet Crusade found him hiding in what would become the Scalet Monestary. How a jungle troll got that far north, and directly in human territory, was never really explained, but he made the place his home for a small period of time and read all the holy texts, finding that suddenly the Light was speaking to him, and began training himself as a priest. The Scarlet Crusade almost killed him until Mograine Sr intervened and let him leave. He has been practicing the power of the Light ever since.

 

[Shannow]

Yes, I know his story. I had mistaken paladin for priest, is all. But the Freethinkers were the perfect explanation as to why trolls could be paladins. but, as you stated, that would give trolls every class, which blizzard will never do.

 

[ScytheRexx]

Personally, I am just happy they got druids finally. We went through the original game and two expansions where every single high-end troll dungeon (ZG, ZA, Gundrak) involved them shape-shifting into animals or animal hybrids, and yet they didn't have the one class that is defined by shape-shifting into animals or animal hybrids. It seemed so silly to me.

 

[Frank]

You know what WoW's missing? A Grimtotem dungeon. Every race has it's evil version of them dungeon except Tauren.

Actually, I guess goblins don't either, but we've been playing as tauren for 5 times longer.

 

[Mathias]

These same races that have Priest, have Warrior, so I'm also failing to see the "lack of militant discipline".

No other races should have Paladins other than humans and dwarves, considering the only Paladins in WoW originated from the order of the Silver Hand. The Blood elves stealing a Nar'ru and leaching its power to become Blood Knights is the stupidest thing ever.

 

[Shegokigo]

Thank you for sharing.

 

[Mathias]

Thank you for sharing.

No, thank you for the patronizing remark.

 

[Shegokigo]

Hey, you directly called the character I've played for years "stupidest thing ever", yeah, I'm gonna respond, obviously.

Why do you even bother? You're not even playing at this point.

 

[AshburnerX]

I'll gladly take a sadist Paladin. Doesn't have to be "Dark" or Death Knight. Also that Lore explanation doesn't explain the IN LORE Argent Crusade Forsaken.

No no... Paladins are holy men. They'd be masochists, because of all the self-flagellation.

 

[ScytheRexx]

No no... Paladins are holy men. They'd be masochists, because of all the self-flagellation.

That was my fault, I was the original one to say sadist when I meant masochists. Work was starting to kick my ass a bit at that point.

 

[Mathias]

Hey, you directly called the character I've played for years "stupidest thing ever", yeah, I'm gonna respond, obviously.

Why do you even bother? You're not even playing at this point.

Why are you totally rational in every single topic except for your favorite video games?

Blood Knights are dumb, the retcon was a lame way to get Paladins on the Horde. Sorry. I'm a firm advocate of lore guiding the game; not the cast in stone laws of MMO's.

 

[Shegokigo]

Advocate of lore never changing, never moving, never evolving?

Gotcha.

 

[Adam]

Advocate of lore never changing, never moving, never evolving?

Gotcha.

*Blink* Seems you`re just fussy about which lore they change...

 

[Shegokigo]

I already agreed that some lore should change earlier in this thread if you actually read my posts. I simply stated why there was rules against Panderan Death Knights and why they made sense. I didn't feel that the reasons they gave for such limited Paladin choices were so well stated.

 

[Mathias]

No, I'm fine with lore changing to progress the storyline and affect the game mechanics. I hate it when the game mechanics are what drive the lore. THE ONLY REASON FOR BLOOD KNIGHTS IS BECAUSE BLIZ WANTED PALADINS ON THE HORDE. I think the whole backassed Worgen are DK's is stupid too. Blizzard will find some stupid reason for Panda Death Knights in future patches as well. They can chant all they want about Pandarien being "pure of heart", as soon as numbers drop a year from the expansion release, they'll add more classes to each race.

They will because they pander to the game mechanics, what's easy, and a quick buck over thinking through their story. Blood knights are proof of that. They were sick of the bitch fest of Paladin vs. Shaman, so they caved and gave both to their opposite respective factions. People bitched about how no other class got Paladins (much like you), well, there you go - you have Tauren Paladins that make absolutely no sense as far as lore goes.

Of course I agree with the notion that they can change the lore and progress it. Its their story to tell, but if you're going to progress and ret-con do what makes sense, not what's easy. Blizzard does a piss poor job of that. Example: Night Elf mages. It just doesn't make sense in any other term except for game mechanics.

The story progression and lore is so convoluted anymore that they can't even keep track of it (see red-shirt kid).
Added at: 07:26

I already agreed that some lore should change earlier in this thread if you actually read my posts. I simply stated why there was rules against Panderan Death Knights and why they made sense. I didn't feel that the reasons they gave for such limited Paladin choices were so well stated.

Those "rules" are going out the door as soon as Blizzards pockets are hurting and they need a quick fix to bring players back.

 

[Terrik]

I kinda got agree with mathias in a sense. There's no real pretending that lore changes weren't made more or less solely for what Bliz thought would be good game balance/mechanics/etc. I really like WC lore, but chances to characters like Kael, killing "x" major plot character because he went "crazy" and so on kinda killed the story for me.

AND THATS FINE! But I've stopped pretending the lore makes sense anymore and I just kinda look for any sort of features I enjoy.

Of course, when the 40K MMO comes out--if I can be a Khornate magic-spouting chaos sorcerer, I'm going to rage that a nerd never has.

 

[ScytheRexx]

I really don't think the lore is as bad as people make it out to be. It's a game, so the lore will obviously be driven by the game mechanics and the needs of the game, but I think they often do a good job with what they have. I never had a problem with Blood Knights, since I always assumed the high elves would have a variation of the paladin. I actually thought the story of the Naaru was what made it frivolous, not so much the class. I think that is why Blizzard decided to make them more "classic" Paladins following TBC.

The draenei as Shaman I thought was a bit odd (the draenei in general were really odd), but they did a good job showing how shamanic the Broken were, which helped cement them for me. Dare I say the "orc homeworld" involved more draenei and blood elves then it did orcs, which I thought was a mistake. Though blood elves are now barely represented compared to orcs, so it evens out I guess.

Maybe I am just overly accepting, but I have known for a long time that Chris Metzen is a proponent of the "Rule of Cool". He will change a section of lore if he finds it would be "cooler" to do it. Draenei were actually a cause by this, one he apologized for, but ultimately I think he made the right choice. Draenei are probably one of the more popular races I see on Alliance, and have a pretty large following in many communities. Remember when the orcs were a bloodthirsty army of evil that burned cities to the ground? To most WC3 players, the sudden honorable Horde lead by Thrall came out of nowhere, yet we all accept it now as just a part of the race and the history. In a few years most of us will not care about Tauren Paladins or Night Elf Mages, they will simply be another step in the history of those races.

I am not going to attempt to convince people to like the lore as it is, that would be a foolish gesture, but I do wish to explain my case in any event.

 

[@Li3n]

Draenei were actually a cause by this, one he apologized for, but ultimately I think he made the right choice. Draenei are probably one of the more popular races I see on Alliance, and have a pretty large following in many communities. Remember when the orcs were a bloodthirsty army of evil that burned cities to the ground? To most WC3 players, the sudden honorable Horde lead by Thrall came out of nowhere, yet we all accept it now as just a part of the race and the history.

Teh lore for Shamans to Warlocks Horde was there from at least WC2, they just expanded on it... unlike the Dranei/Eredar reveal, which totally reversed Eredar lore... needlessly too, as making them split off before Sargeras even started fighting demons would have worked just as well, even better if you consider that they could also make it so the Eredar where keeping the connection secret from the rest of the Legion, making the story more interesting...

 

[Shegokigo]

@ Mathias - Except the the Blood Knights were the overarcing story for ALL of Burning Crusade, not just a "silly gameplay driven storyline add on" or did you never do Sunwell raids? So you entire point folds in on itself.

 

[Ravenpoe]

Am I the only person that thought the whole enslaved naaru powered blood knights were cool?

 

[Shegokigo]

Nope, thought it was fantastic and loved how it played through the storyline all the way to the end of the expansion. I just wish my BElf wasn't so air-headed and as thin as a toothpick with no muscle tone to speak of at all.

 

[ScytheRexx]

Nope, thought it was fantastic and loved how it played through the storyline all the way to the end of the expansion. I just wish my BElf wasn't so air-headed and as thin as a toothpick with no muscle tone to speak of at all.

What I find kind of funny, is the males also used to be skinny, but people complained they looked overly skinny and so they bulked them up, but obviously left the female thin. One of those things I don't think I will ever understand.

Hopefully in the new model updates they will increase the definition of the blood elf females. They don't need to make them muscular, but a new defined texture would be great, maybe add some light shading to the stomach to imply musculature, rather then the flat texture they use now. After seeing the "groundwork" for the new Night Elf model, I am hopeful all the other races will get some good designs.

 

[Chibibar]

I can understand where Mathias is coming from. I think that is the nature of MMO. It is easy to setup lore and gameplay for single player and even local network, but when it comes to MMO, it has to adapt to the players, game mechanics AND lore.

I know it sounds cheesy, but it boils down to money. How money you wanna make vs how much lore you keep intact, vs how many people will enjoy the game. Sadly the "hardcore*" players are far and few inbetween where the "casual*" crowd tends to dominate.

*hardcore - this can varies into different group. You have super min/max hardcore players, PvP hardcore, and Lore hardcore.
*casual - these people keep paying monthly and maybe put in 10-20 hours a month. They may have couple top level characters much less a full set of highest epic gear, but these people also drives the game cause they don't want to lag FAR behind after each expansion. This group usually drive the "easier" leveling IMO and possible game mechanic/lore changes to accommodate this group.

MMO needs both camp to survive in the long run. The hardcore players usually test/play the end game and use as "benchmark" for other players. how easy is it? how many guild beaten it? how fast can a person level 1-max level? how easy to obtain X,Y,Z items? etc etc.

Is it right? that is up in the air. Lore can and will change in MMO since that is the nature of MMO. It will evolves overtime. It can be good, but also it can be bad (see SWG changes that cause its downfall. They practically change their lore to a whole new thing and fail, now the servers are closing due to lack of players)

Blizzard numbers are going down, but still #1 MMO (in terms of subs) compare to others, but other Devs are getting smart and start making games to entice other players that is not WoW but still fun and have good lore, so Blizzard will continue to adapt and change and hope to get those players back.