[News] The Trayvon Martin Discussion Thread

[strawman]

I'm saying that it's as much his fault as the other guy's.

There's a law in that state that says if you are being threatened you are allowed to use force to protect yourself. Martin perhaps should have kept walking, but he didn't half to. If he threw the first punch, then he started an altercation that he only realized was dangerous when zimmerman pulled a gun. At that point I doubt anything could have helped him, because suddenly zimmerman started using that law.

If Zimmerman pushed him first, then he started the altercation.

In the end I feel like the teacher, "I don't care who was following who and who punched who first. You're both suspended!"

It's obvious that a series of seemingly innocuous bad choices were made on both sides, and it ended badly. It's not illegal to follow someone. It's not illegal to evade someone. It's not illegal to approach someone. It's not illegal to taunt or question someone. It's not illegal to ignore questions, respond with your own, or get really close and shout at someone.

At some point someone crossed the line, and someone else followed suit and the situation spun out of control. Unfortunately the victor often gets to rewrite history.

While he may have been stupid, he may have had every right to defend himself if he thought this larger guy presented a threat to him. If you're faced with a bigger guy who's been chasing you for awhile you don't pull your punches. You get in, disable him, and get out.

I don't know enough about the case to say one way or the other, but if you're going to speculate that he was wrong, then you might as well explore the idea that he might have had no better choice.

 

[Soliloquy]

Here's a news release from the Sanford, Florida City Manager. I get the sinking feeling that Zimmerman's not going to be arrested, considering the following excerpts:

when any police officer makes an arrest for any reason, the officer MUST swear and affirm that he/she is making the arrest in good faith and with probable cause. If the arrest is done maliciously and in bad faith, the officer and the City may be held liable.

the telecommunications call taker asked Zimmerman “Are you following him”. Zimmerman replied, “Yes”. The call taker stated “You don’t need to do that”. The call taker’s suggestion is not a lawful order that Mr. Zimmerman would be required to follow.

That said, Zimmerman confronting someone who was simply walking down the street was extremely stupid on his part. If Zimmerman didn't shoot the kid after being hurt, Martin might have gotten off with self defense as well, seeing as a big guy who had been stalking him suddenly left his car and confronted him.

Self defense laws are a tricky thing -- often, they only require you to reasonably believe that you are in danger for them to be considered self defense.

Also:

I agree that Martin did not act responsibly. He was a 15 year old kid! They're all dipshits! Zimmerman is the adult in the situation and is 100% responsible for what happened.

Just thought I'd add that apparently Martin was 17 (I'm also hearing allegations that the photos that were given to the media are around 3-5 years old, but that's only from fringe right-wing sites so far.) It doesn't make what Zimmerman did any less horrific (nor does it take Martin out of the "dipshit" age group) but the difference between being beaten by a 15-year-old and being beaten by a 17-year-old is probably significant as far as the laws applied are concerned (reasonable belief and all that). Your point still stands, though. You can't expect a scared young kid to keep a level head after being stalked and then confronted by a large man.

 

[Mathias]

I don't get it. A kid is dead for doing... nothing... I don't care how the fight between them started. Zimmerman is the reason for it because he ignored what 911 told him to do, and freaking instigated the whole thing.

Say you have a situation where someone spots a car driving recklessly in front of them (not even a good analogy because Martin was doing nothing suspicious), and they report it to 911. 911 tells them not to follow the car, and that police are on their way. That person ignores 911 and follows the car ahead closely. The car speeds up. The person reporting speeds up to keep up. The car is now driving more recklessly to evade its pursuer, and ends up T-boning another car at an intersection. The person who followed the car in the first place instigated the accident. Zimmerman instigated the reaction from Martin, and then shot him.

Zimmerman is a murderer.

 

[Soliloquy]

I don't get it. A kid is dead for doing... nothing... I don't care how the fight between them started. Zimmerman is the reason for it because he ignored what 911 told him to do, and freaking instigated the whole thing.

Say you have a situation where someone spots a car driving recklessly in front of them (not even a good analogy because Martin was doing nothing suspicious), and they report it to 911. 911 tells them not to follow the car, and that police are on their way. That person ignores 911 and follows the car ahead closely. The car speeds up. The person reporting speeds up to keep up. The car is now driving more recklessly to evade its pursuer, and ends up T-boning another car at an intersection. The person who followed the car in the first place instigated the accident. Zimmerman instigated the reaction from Martin, and then shot him.

Zimmerman is a murderer.

The thing is, he wasn't told "don't follow him," he was told "you don't have to follow him," which has completely different connotations.

It doesn't change that he killed an unarmed kid. It does mean that there is a lot less of a reason to arrest him.

 

[strawman]

The person who followed the car in the first place instigated the accident.

But that person would not be in trouble. That's the difficulty with this type of situation. What he did was wrong - bottom line.

But what law would you create that would make what he did illegal? Think carefully - a lot of other people have, and so far no one has a better idea.

Maybe you can crack the code.

 

[SeraRelm]

doing... nothing... .

http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=16000239

knocked him down with a punch to the nose, repeatedly slammed his head on the ground

k.

 

[SeraRelm]

Martin perhaps should have kept walking, but he didn't half to.

but he didn't half to.

half to

 

[Yoshimickster]

Trayvon's murderer is the kind of guy who get's killed on episodes of Case Closed. And then we here the murderer's sad reasoning for doing such.

 

[Krisken]

 

[checkeredhat]

Punch guy who pulls gun on you in nose: not self defense.
Shoot guy who punched you in the nose after you pulled a gun on him: self defense?

 

[Yoshimickster]

Man, this is like Bernie Goetz all over again. Only there is UNDENIABLE PROOF that the guy killed simply for murder.

 

[Adam]

Probs because checkered already went through your post with his rebuttal. And using "possession of mj" to make a guy seem dangerous is lolworthy.

But naw you're shaking your head. We are the stupid ones and you are the enlightened intelligent person in a sea of idiots

It wasn't to make him seem dangerous, it was to make him seem a little unlike this sweet innocent 15 year old that the media is making him out to be (and some posters here).

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sfl-rep...re-of-trayvon-martin-20120326,0,7098615.story

"Trayvon, who claimed that an unnamed friend had given him the jewelry, was not disciplined because of the discovery, but was instead suspended for graffiti, according to a Miami-Dade Schools Police report obtained by The Miami Herald."

A good example of that? Here's the photos that the media are using to sell this story.

Zimmerman from booking photo on left, 5 year old picture of Martin on right.

Zimmerman picture:

Martin recent picture:

Why "sell this story"? $$$

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/trayvon-martin-trademarks-769123

MARCH 26--The mother of Trayvon Martin has filed two applications to secure trademarks containing her late son’s name, records show. Sybrina Fulton is seeking marks for the phrases “I Am Trayvon” and “Justice for Trayvon,” according to filings made last week with the United States Patent and Trademark Office. In both instances, Fulton, 46, is seeking the trademarks for use on “Digital materials, namely, CDs and DVDs featuring Trayvon Martin,” and other products.

Martin approached Zimmerman, not the other way around.



Zimmerman said he was walking back to his SUV when Martin approached him from behind, according to the Sentinel's report, which Sanford police confirmed Monday afternoon.

Is any of this 'true'? We'll never know. But this garbage about "It's obvious who's in the wrong here." is patently NOT true.

I'm not calling anyone stupid, I'm saying that to presume guilt based on, so far, a very one-sided emotional argument isn't entirely clever.

 

[SeraRelm]

But he had a gun and the kid was black, he's obviously an insane racist bent on genocide.

 

[Adam]

Hey, police report here: http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin Lakes Shooting Initial Report.pdf

 

[Krisken]

Ok, this keeps getting glossed over, and it is very, very annoying.

There is about a one-minute gap between when Zimmerman made the 911 call and when he came face-to-face with Martin that police say they're not sure what happened.

THIS is where I have a problem. THIS is why I can't side with the shooter. There is a full minute where anything could have been said by either person.

 

[Adam]

Ok, this keeps getting glossed over, and it is very, very annoying.


THIS is where I have a problem. THIS is why I can't side with the shooter. There is a full minute where anything could have been said by either person.

Don't side with anyone? Let the justice system take its course.

 

[makare]

We can still have opinions on the case. The justice system doesn't work in a bubble.

 

[Adam]

We can still have opinions on the case. The justice system doesn't work in a bubble.

Fair enough. "Siding" suggests predisposition towards one person or another; which I suppose in a situation like this where you have one side with their opinion and the other side dead is impossible to avoid.

 

[Krisken]

Fair enough. "Siding" suggests predisposition towards one person or another; which I suppose in a situation like this where you have one side with their opinion and the other side dead is impossible to avoid.

It means, I'm not instantly taking the guy at his word. There is a full minute where he isn't divulging what was said or what happened, why he got out of his car, how he ended up face to face with the kid. The whole thing smells kind of fishy.

 

[Adam]

It means, I'm not instantly taking the guy at his word. There is a full minute where he isn't divulging what was said or what happened, why he got out of his car, how he ended up face to face with the kid. The whole thing smells kind of fishy.

I think Zimmerman's not telling the whole truth about the altercation and how he ended up on the ground with Trayvon punching him and bashing his head into the ground. Is it the difference between murder and manslaughter?

Oh, and just a quick clarification. That mugshot of Zimmerman I posted above is from 2005, not recent. Not sure why the media is using a 7 year old picture of him...

 

[Jay]

How does a kid get to punch & manhandle a guy who's well over 100 pounds heavier than him? Bullshit.

One thing is for sure, Zimmerman's a dead man, regardless on what the outcome of this is unless he is shipped somewhere completely under the radar.... like Montana.

 

[Adam]

How does a kid get to punch & manhandle a guy who's well over 100 pounds heavier than him? Bullshit.

One thing is for sure, Zimmerman's a dead man, regardless on what the outcome of this is unless he is shipped somewhere completely under the radar.... like Montana.

6'3 , 170lb football playing 17 year old punches a 5'9 200lb loan underwriter in the face and manhandles him and you call bullshit? Strange.

 

[GasBandit]

In this thread, perhaps even moreso than any other, even on the internet... people have already made up their mind about the topic, and nothing will dissuade. Nothing.

Meanwhile, more teenagers are killed every day, and yet the national stage doesn't trumpet them for some reason.

None of you guys better make a joke about "stop the presses, a pretty white girl is missing" in the future and not feel like such a grand hypocrite.

 

[Adam]

In this thread, perhaps even moreso than any other, even on the internet... people have already made up their mind about the topic, and nothing will dissuade. Nothing.

Meanwhile, more teenagers are killed every day, and yet the national stage doesn't trumpet them for some reason.

None of you guys better make a joke about "stop the presses, a pretty white girl is missing" in the future and not feel like such a grand hypocrite.

Like say: http://ca.news.yahoo.com/student-shot-dead-mississippi-state-university-054223724.html

A student was shot to death at a Mississippi State University residence hall late on Saturday night, authorities said, adding that three suspects remained at large.
The unidentified student was reported shot at Evans Hall shortly after 11 p.m. local time, university officials said.
Authorities described the suspects as three black males who fled the hall in a late model blue Crown Victoria car.
There were no immediate reports of further injuries and the university is operating on "emergency" status, officials said.

 

[Jay]

So what I understood is that Zimmerman (who claims to be a part of an unofficial Neighborhood Watch) follows Trayvon for a period of time and confirms on the phone that the teen is well aware of this. Eventually, the man actually approached the teen up close and began to bluntly demand answers from him. Zimmerman then claims he was sucker punched as he reached for his cellphone and this is KEY.

Meanwhile Trayvon, a kid in his own neighborhood, had no idea he was being suspected of wrong doing. In his eyes he was followed and accosted by a large and angry stranger who then began to reach into his pocket for something.

Put yourself in the poor kid's situation. How many of you can say you wouldn't assume it was a gun or knife of some sort? It was an act of desperation. Dumb as fuck but hey, kids.
Zimmerman created this horrible situation and deserves all of the culpability and once again proves that 2nd amendment is a dumb as fuck right to give to the masses of the mundane.

 

[Adam]

So what I understood is that Zimmerman (who claims to be a part of an unofficial Neighborhood Watch) follows Trayvon for a period of time and confirms on the phone that the teen is well aware of this. Eventually, the man actually approached the teen up close and began to bluntly demand answers from him. Zimmerman then claims he was sucker punched as he reached for his cellphone and this is KEY.

Meanwhile Trayvon, a kid in his own neighborhood, had no idea he was being suspected of wrong doing. In his eyes he was followed and accosted by a large and angry stranger who then began to reach into his pocket for something.

Put yourself in the poor kid's situation. How many of you can say you wouldn't assume it was a gun or knife of some sort? It was an act of desperation. Dumb as fuck but hey, kids.
Zimmerman created this horrible situation and deserves all of the culpability and once again proves that 2nd amendment is a dumb as fuck right to give to the masses of the mundane.

Trayvon wasn't in his own neighborhood. He was staying with his dad and his dad's girlfriend after being suspended from school for 10 days for drug possession. But yes, a series of misunderstandings can result in dire consequences.

 

[Jay]

6'3 , 170lb football playing 17 year old punches a 5'9 200lb loan underwriter in the face and manhandles him and you call bullshit? Strange.

The kid was only 140 pounds. Get the facts straight before you post.

 

[Jay]

Trayvon wasn't in his own neighborhood. He was staying with his dad and his dad's girlfriend after being suspended from school for 10 days for drug possession. But yes, a series of misunderstandings can result in dire consequences.

 

[Adam]

He lived with his mom.

 

[makare]

In this thread, perhaps even moreso than any other, even on the internet... people have already made up their mind about the topic, and nothing will dissuade. Nothing.

Meanwhile, more teenagers are killed every day, and yet the national stage doesn't trumpet them for some reason.

None of you guys better make a joke about "stop the presses, a pretty white girl is missing" in the future and not feel like such a grand hypocrite.

What does the fact that not every crime is treated with the same notoriety have to do with anything?

 

[Adam]

The kid was only 140 pounds. Get the facts straight before you post.

Ok once again, here's the police report: http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin Lakes Shooting Initial Report.pdf

Trayvon is listed at 160.

 

[Jay]

Oh, and just a quick clarification. That mugshot of Zimmerman I posted above is from 2005, not recent. Not sure why the media is using a 7 year old picture of him...

sigh.... and that is not a mugshot. He only had the misfortune to wear orange during his driver's license renewal....notice the lack of height stripes behind him.

A BLACK KID IS WEARING HOODIE. GAAAAAGNSTA. WATCH OUT. Charlie, is this your alt account?

"Martin approached Zimmerman, not the other way around."

So claims the survivor of the altercation.

Listen, before I lose my patience and say something I regret.... get your facts straight and look at the whole thing objectively.

The kid wasn't an angel nor I expect him to be some poor victim but he's dead with nothing but a bag of skittles in his pockets and he can't tell his side of a story that clearly indicated that he was accosted without reason in the streets.

So, if I don't shave for a couple days and show up in Miami to visit friends and lose myself going back home after buying some skittles and iced tea, should I expect a fat self-cop wearing a piece to get out of his SUV and start screaming at me to ask me what I'm doing?

It's ridiculous.

It's murder.

And Americans once again prove that the 2nd amendment is a dip shit right.

 

[Adam]

sigh.... and that is not a mugshot. He only had the misfortune to wear orange during his driver's license renewal....notice the lack of height stripes behind him.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...rman-said-he-was-knocked-to-ground-and-beaten

"George Zimmerman, in a 2005 mug shot provided by the Orange County (Fla.) jail, via The Miami Herald.""



I am posting facts Jay. If you don't like it, I'm sorry, but it doesn't change what they are.

 

[Krisken]

What does the fact that not every crime is treated with the same notoriety have to do with anything?

He's saying that we only care because the kid was black. You know, he's playing the 'poor white people' card.

I'd also like to know how Trayvon pulled the guy out of his car. Obviously that is what occurred since he 'approached Zimmerman, not the other way around'.

 

[Jay]

Incidentally, the official Neighborhood Watch manual says, and this is a direct quote: "it should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers, and they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles."

IMO

Hispanic guy follows the kid around, then approaches him in a hostile way and starts barking as the kid, probably flashing his piece, then puts his hand in his pocket, the kid freaks out and tries to defend himself and takes him down, guy grabs his gun and shoots him in the chest.

The black kid got trolled hard.

All he wanted was his ice tea and skittles and get back to his basketball game.

Love how it took the cops 3 days to identify him, especially when they had his cell phone and his contact info was at hand.

Pathetic.