Chippy, this is the kind of shit that got you temp-banned. Put it back in your pants.
[Gaming] Mass Effect 3 : It's here and thy ending is queeeeeeer.
- Thread starter Jay
- Start date
- Status
A friend of a friend of mine was a very long term employee at Bioware (he'd been there for 13 years) until he recently quit. Apparently the culture at Bioware has basically been in the shitter since EA took over. Everyone's expected to work insane hours to produce content at a ridiculous turnaround rate. With all of the senior people abandoning ship at Bioware, it's really no wonder their last couple of games (since the EA takeover) have been less than stellar compared to previous installments.
He/She is, but not entirely. This is what I was getting at before.
Games by nature are vessels that give us control. Some go the railroad route and simply give us a character in which we are only the conductor in the cockpit. Others go to great lengths to make the character feel like a part of us, like we are the person or, at the least, helped craft the person. Shepard is an example of a character that, while all his options were written out by writers beforehand, we were given the option to craft him over time to carry responses and ideals we ourselves carry. Look at Gordon Freeman, Valve said long ago the reason they have refused to give him a voice all these years is because WE are Gordon Freeman. Yes, I don't have a Ph.D in Physics, but when I am in that suit, with that gravity gun, and hitting things with that crowbar, I am Gordon Freeman, and Gordon Freeman is me.
Mass Effect was in the middle. It tried to keep us with enough separation to feel like an epic sci-fi movie, but gave us the power to craft the character and choose the roads. I helped craft my Shepard, so I have some stakes in him and his relationships. It is foolish to say my Shepard is not mine just as much as it is to say my orc hunter in WoW is not mine.
Yes saying your character, whose choices were written, designed, and acted by other people, isn't yours is mega-trolling.
I am the troll master and you have all been played.
Do you play any MMOs, Chippy? If you do, and you have a character you were playing for years, would you say that character is not yours? Not even a little bit?
Why is Chippy so bad at this?
I'm hoping all those people go make a new company, or do a Kickstarter.
That does not answer the question. I am asking if you feel any ownership over your character as a character, at all.
So you are telling me it will be perfectly okay if tomorrow your MMO character is killed off by the company because, well, it's their artistic property after all.
The reasons I'm harping on Chippy:
1. The cheering that went on when he was temp-banned was funny even though I didn't notice him causing any grief. I don't even know what was going on with that, but it was funny.
2. His answer is "no, it's not." People post explanations, analyses, personal experience, and he gives a 5-year-old's "Nuh-uh".
1. The cheering that went on when he was temp-banned was funny even though I didn't notice him causing any grief. I don't even know what was going on with that, but it was funny.
2. His answer is "no, it's not." People post explanations, analyses, personal experience, and he gives a 5-year-old's "Nuh-uh".
I mean I'm having a normal conversation with the rest of the people. You're the one who seems to have a personal problem here.
Besides, you saying Shepard was yours was really, really stupid. So, you know.
To Sycthe, I thought you were asking in a purely artistic sense. as a consumer I would say yes I feel some ownership. And so, as a consumer, I would be mad that a character got deleted. But to me, that's not the same as what's going on. I get that the ending practically deleted all the choices made earlier in the game, but having a bad ending due to artistic vision and deleting an mmo character for the same reasons are too different.
Besides, you saying Shepard was yours was really, really stupid. So, you know.
To Sycthe, I thought you were asking in a purely artistic sense. as a consumer I would say yes I feel some ownership. And so, as a consumer, I would be mad that a character got deleted. But to me, that's not the same as what's going on. I get that the ending practically deleted all the choices made earlier in the game, but having a bad ending due to artistic vision and deleting an mmo character for the same reasons are too different.
I was just clarifying that I wasn't saying you're not allowed to have your wrong opinion.
And of course Shepard isn't mine.
She's Liara's.
And of course Shepard isn't mine.
She's Liara's.
North_Ranger
Staff member
Let's get back to 'polite', shall we? Or do I have to resort to 'You sound like an old married couple' and risk someone flipping a table?
I've played ME1 and ME2. I've read the description of the endings and I have to agree more with Chippy than everyone else. The ending wasn't what people expected and they're upset about it. They are just a participant in the story, not the story teller. That is Bioware/EA, for better or worse. I care about the characters, I care about the story, but not to the point where I'm going to get all up in arms about it or attack a fellow forum member because they, perhaps stubbornly, disagree with me.
Ultimately, it's a game. Granted, it's a game that, by the end of ME3, I will have invested a lot of hours into, but it's just a game...another story. So what if the ending lands with a thud for some people.
Ultimately, it's a game. Granted, it's a game that, by the end of ME3, I will have invested a lot of hours into, but it's just a game...another story. So what if the ending lands with a thud for some people.
So you are telling me you have no artistic attachment to a character you create? That mage you made with the name you choose, the skills you developed, the choices you made. You feel no attachment to that other then a consumer would to, say, a rug? The reason I even brought it up is because characters you make usually have some artistic attachment, more so in MMOs, but everything about them from the quests they do to the texture that makes their face, was created by someone else.
Maybe we see things differently, but to me, a character I helped create is important to me. Every character I make I imbue values and attributes I hold as long as those values are not 100% predisposed. ME is a series based on crafting your Shepard over time, so that by the end it was a story you helped mesh and relationships you helped promote, or in some cases denied. In the end, every person that has ever played an RPG has some attachment to the person they helped craft. Aerith is just a bunch of polygons, but she was also a close friend to my Cloud Strife, she was someone he cared about, and thus someone I cared about. I cried when she died.
I can't look at a character I craft as just another consumer product, nor should I accept someone else telling me "Yes we are going to let you have control to make this character feel however you want, to imbue some of your own values and emotions into him, but when the end comes all those values you embraced will mean jack shit, sorry."
My Shepard was not just Commander Shepard, his name was Captain Aiden Shepard, and he would never leave a fight unless everyone got out alive. He was not given a chance to make that choice because the choices were made for him.
You don't feel that attachment, then good for you, but it's very real, and why so many of us hate the ending. The fact "Artistic Integrity" is used as an excuse is only worst, because ME is as much a product of the fans that helped support it as the writers that wrote those scripts. We don't want to be told our opinion does not matter when the vast majority inform you how crappy and uninspired you made our character go out.
Fixed.
The issue again comes down to the facts...
We were promised closure, we were given none.
We were promised our choices would matter for the ending. They didn't.
We were given a story about hope, acceptance, individuality, and galactic unity, only for all those things to be thrown out. Unity can never happen unless you give up your individuality in favor of synthesis.
Our character, whose entire basis has been a powerful ability to choose when to do something, and when not to do something, simply gives in and does something because a character he never met before told him he had too.
Here is the thing, and one thing everyone arguing this keep missing. A game like this is not "Just a story..." anymore then me playing DnD with my friends is "Just a story..." Bioware is my DM and they crafted this world that I took part in throwing these encounters my way, I made those choices, but they have to see it through in a way the entire party has fun and does not feel squelched. Actually to go with the whole DnD thing, imagine you are playing a long built mage, you are ending the night and the DM gives you this...
"As the goblins ravage the world above, you enter a room. A ghost appears, you have not met him before but he tells you that entering one of the doors behind him will stop the goblins. Once you enter a door, you will perish, and you will never know what happens to all your friends."
You stand up, "But I don't want to make that choice, I will find another way to stop them. Let me roll another option."
The DM stands, "Nope, I am the DM, this is my story, so you will choose a door."
You yell, "Dude that's not fair, I spend years building up this guy and his ideals, you can't just give me those choices!"
The DM retorts, "Too bad, it's my vision, sit down and drink a soda, pick a door, and get it over with."
Are you really saying I should just sit back, shrug, say "Fine" and go with it because it was never really "My story" in the first place? Shepard WAS my character, his interactions were written by Bioware, just like my DnD encounters are brought up by a DM, but that does not make him any less invested by me. Bioware can bitch about "Artistic Integrity" if they want (mind you, the writer of ME3 was not even the same one as ME1), but I have the right to decide the DM is bullshit and find a new friend to play with if they are not going to take me seriously.
Holy hell, why in the world are we still debating this?! A lot of us really really hated the ending and feel slighted. Some of us merely really hated the ending and don't feel slighted. I even know some people who loved the ending. All viewpoints are opinions and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Fucking move on already.
yeah how dare we discuss ME in a thread about ME
And to me Shepard is only the creator's. All those decisions, customization options, and pretty much everything except the name were set up by the developers. You picked what order they came in and how they happened, but they're still the developers doing.
And to me Shepard is only the creator's. All those decisions, customization options, and pretty much everything except the name were set up by the developers. You picked what order they came in and how they happened, but they're still the developers doing.
I'm not disparaging discussing Mass Effect in a thread dedicated to talking about Mass Effect; I'm disparaging the seemingly never-ending wrangling about whose opinion of whether or not we should feel slighted by the ending is the correct one. We get it, alright!? Chippy and KCWM didn't like the ending, but don't feel like the writers should be roasted on a spit for it; Scythe and others think that Bioware is the worst company in the world for destroying a franchise that millions of people loved because of how crappy the ending is. For cryin' out loud, it really is like watching an old married couple argue. Neither of you is going to convince the other that their opinion of the ending and resulting shit-storm is the right one.
That can be said for every role-playing game in existence. So you really are telling me that you have no creative attachment to any character you make at any point in the existence of the RPG genre?
SR - If it's the end of the campaign and my DM gives me that choice...my character's life to save everyone, I take it. I go down as a legend, even if it's just a legend in my eyes. After all, the game is over and I've saved the world. But, that's just me.
I get the D&D comparison. I don't think it's apples to apples, but it's close enough that I can appreciate it. Perhaps I'm just not as invested in the characters of ME as others are.
For me, the ending makes sense. It's not a happy ending where Shepard walks away with the love interest of the player's choice, settles down, and has a great life. It's not all rainbows and sunshine. If I understand the endings, you have a choice...a touch and crappy choice. It works for me. I can understand how it doesn't work for everyone. More power to them.
Maybe once I play the game, I'll feel differently. We will see.
I'm not trying to be combative, so please don't take it that way.
I get the D&D comparison. I don't think it's apples to apples, but it's close enough that I can appreciate it. Perhaps I'm just not as invested in the characters of ME as others are.
For me, the ending makes sense. It's not a happy ending where Shepard walks away with the love interest of the player's choice, settles down, and has a great life. It's not all rainbows and sunshine. If I understand the endings, you have a choice...a touch and crappy choice. It works for me. I can understand how it doesn't work for everyone. More power to them.
Maybe once I play the game, I'll feel differently. We will see.
I'm not trying to be combative, so please don't take it that way.
I haven't played it yet and the ending pisses me off on principle.
GasBandit
Staff member
I played 2, and had planned to play the others but the ending fiasco soured me on the idea.
I'm still going through with--I bought it and I'm invested in what's going on. The games have held me for 60 hours; I'll give them another 29 hours and 45 minutes, and then flip a table about the last 15 mins.
North_Ranger
Staff member
This. Taking orders from a VI who has chosen to look like a whiny little runt and sound like Haley Joel Osment on a bad day.Pretty sure no one is pissed that Shepard sacrifices him/herself. It's what he/she does it for that is the problem.
And the fact we didn't get to see what happened to his friends and comrades. Even something simple, like Liara and Wrex and whoever standing in the ruins of London and watching as the Citadel explodes as a flicker on the night sky... Even that would have been great. Instead there's just Joker suddenly tucking his tail between his leg and running.
That is fine, you didn't care about the choice, but maybe that was just how your character worked. Maybe that's how you built him. Again, the issue comes down to choices, and being able to make a choice that fits the character and the narrative you wanted to fight for.
Here is another problem people who argue this seem to have, it's not about having a "happy" (in the case of Shepard) ending. I have no problem with me having to kill my Shepard, but I want my death to be a positive influence that does not counter everything I stood for leading up to that point. My Shepard was a guy that worked his ass off over three games to bring peace, equality, and hope to the universe. I brought worlds together, made friends out of enemies, made countless friends myself. In the end, here is what we get...
Choice 1) Destroy. I destroy the Reapers, and in doing so I kill EDI and the Geth. I would be murdering two of my friends, the work they did, and the sacrifices they made, without any input from them. I would be committing genocide, and spit in the face of all the work I did to bring the Quarians and Geth to a lasting peace. Legion's sacrifice would mean nothing.
Choice 2) Control. I control the Reapers, and just fly them out of the galaxy. My Shepard is never one to take away free will from anything, even the Reapers, and would not dare risk everything to control them just for them to end up controlling him. This was driven home less then 10 minutes earlier with TIM and how foolish it was to even do. I would have to destroy my own methods and everything I fought to stop to basically turns the Reapers into my puppets. Choice
3) Synthesis. Was it not nice that the whole time I was fighting for unity of the planets, all while maintaining that it was the differences we had that made us unique and strong in our own ways? Wrex is a noble Korgan, but guess what Wrex, you are now part of the bio-synthetic super group now! We are all the same and all our individually as species is gone! I bet you are pretty happy about that!
Under all three choices the Mass Relays are destroyed, and my friends are left stranded on some planet. In two out of three of the endings, either Garrus and Tali are going to die from starvation, or the rest of the crew will. The fact they abandoned the battle made Joker, who was a brave loyal person, look like a coward, and don't even get me started on things like Wrex, excited to see his kids in the pre-battle, will now never see them. That Tali, who finally go back her homeworld, will never again be able to visit it in her lifetime. No, but we got to see Joker stare off like an idiot by himself or with his arm around EDI while my love interest left my side to run away.
If I could have taken Choice 1 without being told it would cause a mass genocide, my rage would probably be half of what it is now, because then at least I felt I was keeping in tune with my characters values (The rest of the being pissed would be due to the lack of closure and the crappy Joker scene). Death or not, the issue was my Shepard was not given the choice he needed to be my Shepard, he was given some out of character options and then told "sorry, that's all you get, DEAL WITH IT."
Choice 2) Control. I control the Reapers, and just fly them out of the galaxy. My Shepard is never one to take away free will from anything, even the Reapers, and would not dare risk everything to control them just for them to end up controlling him. This was driven home less then 10 minutes earlier with TIM and how foolish it was to even do. I would have to destroy my own methods and everything I fought to stop to basically turns the Reapers into my puppets. Choice
3) Synthesis. Was it not nice that the whole time I was fighting for unity of the planets, all while maintaining that it was the differences we had that made us unique and strong in our own ways? Wrex is a noble Korgan, but guess what Wrex, you are now part of the bio-synthetic super group now! We are all the same and all our individually as species is gone! I bet you are pretty happy about that!
Under all three choices the Mass Relays are destroyed, and my friends are left stranded on some planet. In two out of three of the endings, either Garrus and Tali are going to die from starvation, or the rest of the crew will. The fact they abandoned the battle made Joker, who was a brave loyal person, look like a coward, and don't even get me started on things like Wrex, excited to see his kids in the pre-battle, will now never see them. That Tali, who finally go back her homeworld, will never again be able to visit it in her lifetime. No, but we got to see Joker stare off like an idiot by himself or with his arm around EDI while my love interest left my side to run away.
If I could have taken Choice 1 without being told it would cause a mass genocide, my rage would probably be half of what it is now, because then at least I felt I was keeping in tune with my characters values (The rest of the being pissed would be due to the lack of closure and the crappy Joker scene). Death or not, the issue was my Shepard was not given the choice he needed to be my Shepard, he was given some out of character options and then told "sorry, that's all you get, DEAL WITH IT."
That is the issue I have with it, it's not that it needs to be totally happy, but at least make it bittersweet. The ending left me nothing but bitter, because if you look at it from the point of view of what I was fighting for, there was nothing sweet about it. I feel like the sacrifices I made were for nothing, because everything I did up to that point was invalidated.
I don't, but I find the entire argument overly dismissive to the issue. It's that "deal with it" mentality that I hate. We didn't like the ending for a reason, and we don't like it being implied that our outrage is us being whiny or entitled. We really didn't like the ending for reasons you can see all over the internet, it's not just a few dudes.
This is what the DLC's supposed to address, but you're still stuck with being one kind of war criminal or another, and your war assets being worthless because the doomsday device does it all.
People were talking less about the ending and more about who owns a character until you posted this
. Thanks.I understand your point.
Honestly, I'm not invested enough in the conversation to carry on. As we both disagree with the other, going back and forth won't change anything in a positive way. I appreciate the points you're making and I don't feel that you're opinion and feelings on the matter are right or wrong...just different than what I walk away with, again, as someone who hasn't played ME3, but at the same time isn't as invested in my characters the same way it appears others are.
Honestly, I'm not invested enough in the conversation to carry on. As we both disagree with the other, going back and forth won't change anything in a positive way. I appreciate the points you're making and I don't feel that you're opinion and feelings on the matter are right or wrong...just different than what I walk away with, again, as someone who hasn't played ME3, but at the same time isn't as invested in my characters the same way it appears others are.
Wife just finished the first Mass Effect as full Paragon (not a drop in her red meter), and daaaamn:
She got Saren to shoot himself. That was fucking awesome.
You'd never seen that? I don't think I've ever had to fight him.
We just got the game last month and I fought him.
- Status