>___< "In a Woman's World"

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Kissinger said:
GasBandit said:
Fight on, Forum Crusaders!
Ah, yes. The image macro. The last refuge of the defeated internet poster.
He's not defeated. He just doesn't care enough to get involved with the discussion.

And I understand what you're saying, I just disagree. I believe that for humor's sake stereotypes are great. The differentiation of the genders/races/sexual proclivities are of immense importance to humor. And that's what this started as - humor.

Do I think stereotypes are truisms? Not all of them, but for the most part yes. Does this mean we shouldn't fight through them? Of course not. But they exist and are there for a reason.
 

ElJuski

Staff member
Gruebeard said:
Charlie Dont Surf said:
Alright, sure, I'll bite.

Gruebeard, what stereotypes do you believe in?
Hey, back on the discussion point.

Watch a sitcom. Any sitcom. I believe in the stereotypes used to create pretty much every character on the screen.

Oh, but given Kissinger's post just now, I want to add that I'm not talking about stereotypes that set "expectations for how men and women should and shouldn't behave." I'm talking about those that create handy shortcuts to describe how a person likely behaves.

And handy shortcuts = lazy writing. That's why I stay the fuck away from Two and a Half Men or ABC Family's Roomates. He's the wacky one and he's the lady's man lololol
 
S

Steven Soderburgin

MindDetective said:
Kissinger said:
Edrondol said:
I agree, but totally disregarding the genetic effect of our differences is.
I wasn't totally disregarding it. I was saying that the stereotype greatly overstates things, cultural factors play a large part in shaping things, and that, in general, blanket stereotypes are bad things that should not be supported.

I really don't know why so many of you have a hard time with this.
Because you gave the impression of making a stronger statement than "culture influences stereotypes". If that is really all you are saying then it isn't terribly interesting or much of a contribution to the overall discussion, really.
It was a contradiction of the attitude expressed by many people in this thread that stereotypes exist for a reason and that the differences perceived between men and women were completely based in genetics. Although if adding a dissenting opinion doesn't contribute much to a discussion, then you must have some boring discussions.
 
Kissinger said:
MindDetective said:
Kissinger said:
Edrondol said:
I agree, but totally disregarding the genetic effect of our differences is.
I wasn't totally disregarding it. I was saying that the stereotype greatly overstates things, cultural factors play a large part in shaping things, and that, in general, blanket stereotypes are bad things that should not be supported.

I really don't know why so many of you have a hard time with this.
Because you gave the impression of making a stronger statement than "culture influences stereotypes". If that is really all you are saying then it isn't terribly interesting or much of a contribution to the overall discussion, really.
It was a contradiction of the attitude expressed by many people in this thread that stereotypes exist for a reason and that the differences perceived between men and women were completely based in genetics. Although if adding a dissenting opinion doesn't contribute much to a discussion, then you must have some boring discussions.
1.) Nobody said these differences were completely based in genetics.

2.) Culture is a reason. The opposite position would be that they exist for no reason whatsoever.
 
K

Kitty Sinatra

Kissinger said:
So you use stereotypes to make judgements about people before you get to know them? You "pre-judge" people, so to speak?
Charlie said:
believing sitcoms as fact.... so... you're telling me you don't believe black people exist?
Okay, I know there are multiple discussions going on here, so I'm gonna assume the two of you haven't read all my posts in the proper context, which would require this line: Stereotypes are a basis for comedy gold. That is, I'm talking about fictional characters, not real people.
 
S

Steven Soderburgin

Gruebeard said:
Okay, I know there are multiple discussions going on here, so I'm gonna assume the two of you haven't read all my posts in the proper context, which would require this line: Stereotypes are a basis for comedy gold. That is, I'm talking about fictional characters, not real people.
If you like lazy, boring comedy, I guess.
 

Kissinger said:
Gruebeard said:
Charlie Dont Surf said:
Alright, sure, I'll bite.

Gruebeard, what stereotypes do you believe in?
Hey, back on the discussion point.

Watch a sitcom. Any sitcom. I believe in the stereotypes used to create pretty much every character on the screen.

Oh, but given Kissinger's post just now, I want to add that I'm not talking about stereotypes that set "expectations for how men and women should and shouldn't behave." I'm talking about those that create handy shortcuts to describe how a person likely behaves.
So you use stereotypes to make judgements about people before you get to know them? You "pre-judge" people, so to speak?
EVERYONE prejudges people. Everyone. When you meet someone you instantly make a call in your brain base on several factors which include looks, smell and even touch (handshakes). We make these subconsciously. Even you, Kissinger. Or are you going to tell me that if you met these two guys in the street you'd treat them exactly the same? If you say yes you are lying to yourself as well as us.

 

GasBandit

Staff member
Edrondol said:
Kissinger said:
GasBandit said:
Fight on, Forum Crusaders!
Ah, yes. The image macro. The last refuge of the defeated internet poster.
He's not defeated. He just doesn't care enough to get involved with the discussion.
The discussion is inane. You're right, I wasn't debating him, I was just mocking him.

Stereotypes form the way they do as a parody of observed tendency. Yes, they can be hurtful. Yes, they have no bearing on the actual idiosyncrasies of the individual. But to say they their comparison is groundless is silly. Otherwise, we'd have "stereotypes" of "oh those silly black people, going to Mars for 2 weeks in the summer and eating their weight in reconstituted oysters whenever baseball season rolls around." It'd be gobbledygook, and hence would have no lasting power at all.
 

ElJuski

Staff member
Kissinger said:
Gruebeard said:
Okay, I know there are multiple discussions going on here, so I'm gonna assume the two of you haven't read all my posts in the proper context, which would require this line: Stereotypes are a basis for comedy gold. That is, I'm talking about fictional characters, not real people.
If you like lazy, boring comedy, I guess.
This is what I've been saying this whole time.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Kissinger said:
Gruebeard said:
Okay, I know there are multiple discussions going on here, so I'm gonna assume the two of you haven't read all my posts in the proper context, which would require this line: Stereotypes are a basis for comedy gold. That is, I'm talking about fictional characters, not real people.
If you like lazy, boring comedy, I guess.
For someone who should be familiar with the laments of Jay Sherman, you certainly are naive about human nature.

"If that's what passes for entertainment, no wonder I'm getting cancelled." - Jay
"Ha ha. Toilet." -Jay's Taxi Driver.
 

GasBandit said:
Kissinger said:
Gruebeard said:
Okay, I know there are multiple discussions going on here, so I'm gonna assume the two of you haven't read all my posts in the proper context, which would require this line: Stereotypes are a basis for comedy gold. That is, I'm talking about fictional characters, not real people.
If you like lazy, boring comedy, I guess.
For someone who should be familiar with the laments of Jay Sherman, you certainly are naive about human nature.

"If that's what passes for entertainment, no wonder I'm getting cancelled." - Jay
"Ha ha. Toilet." -Jay's Taxi Driver.
Considering the show itself is a stereotype about a Jewish critic...Lazy comedy indeed.
 

ElJuski

Staff member
Gruebeard said:
Kissinger said:
If you like lazy, boring comedy, I guess.
Go watch your favorite comedy movie. Count the stereotypes and get back to me.
I <3 Huckabees or Wet Hot American Summer? Possibly Harold and Kumar go to White Castle. Although the latter two definitely use 'stereotypes' for 'comedy gold', it is in the inversion of those stereotypes, not the boring use of old stereotypes. I honestly don't know where you're getting that "stereotypes are comedy gold". Putting in a stock character in a stock situation is boring as fuck.

So really, now I just question your tastes.
 

ElJuski said:
Gruebeard said:
Kissinger said:
If you like lazy, boring comedy, I guess.
Go watch your favorite comedy movie. Count the stereotypes and get back to me.
I <3 Huckabees or Wet Hot American Summer? Possibly Harold and Kumar go to White Castle. Although the latter two definitely use 'stereotypes' for 'comedy gold', it is in the inversion of those stereotypes, not the boring use of old stereotypes. I honestly don't know where you're getting that "stereotypes are comedy gold". Putting in a stock character in a stock situation is boring as boop.

So really, now I just question your tastes.
Your avatar is a middle aged white guy with a pipe.
 

ElJuski

Staff member
There's a reason why a show such as News Radio is considered a masterpiece of sitcom television, where...uhh, I don't know, Reba is not. Good art comes from changing or bucking convention, not playing color by numbers. Archie Bunker could have told you that!

EDIT:
Your avatar is a middle aged white guy with a pipe.
Yeah, Clone High is pretty awesome. The whole show is a parody of teen dramadies, those really shitty shows that use stereotypes abound to try and absorb the teen demographic. That character is a wonderful parody, and ultimately, via his telling Abe to hump the shit out of Cleo, a subversion of the wonderfully tried, true and tired Sitcom Dad formula.
 
K

Kitty Sinatra

So, you've never met a flaming gay? You've never met a geek with odor issues?

Of course I believe in the stereotypes because I know what a stereotype is: An amalgam of personal traits observed among a set of people who share certain qualities.
 

Cajungal

Staff member
I don't think there's anything wrong with acknowledging that stereotypes are there and are based a lot on truth. I've witnessed so many of them. Do I think that's GOOD? No, but denying that there is truth in them isn't bad. Facing that fact is good, because then maybe we can start moving away from those stereotypes.

A good example of this is a documentary I watched for one of my education classes called "Acting White." It was about how intelligent black students at many poorer, inner-city public schools were being harassed for their good grades and general success. They were viewed as traitors by some people in the black community. Why? Because some black people in the community considered good grades, Standard English, and setting lofty goals in general as inherently white traits. They even had a black musician give an interview. He says he is "practically bilingual." When he is with his friends he uses their slang. But any other time, he speaks standard English. He doesn't feel he can share that part of himself with the guys in the community of his youth. If we ignore this stereotype--if we are offended just by the mentioning of it--there's no way for us to examine ourselves and our communities and help to change it.

And I've laughed at stereotypes in film and TV. Sometimes they make good observations. There are people out there who prefer to adopt some safe, mass persona rather than be a complex individual with a mind of their own. And that's laughable.
 
K

Kitty Sinatra

ElJuski said:
it is in the inversion of those stereotypes, not the boring use of old stereotypes. I honestly don't know where you're getting that "stereotypes are comedy gold".
So why exactly do you think I'm not referring to the creative use of stereotypes?
 
S

Steven Soderburgin

GasBandit said:
Stereotypes form the way they do as a parody of observed tendency. Yes, they can be hurtful. Yes, they have no bearing on the actual idiosyncrasies of the individual. But to say they their comparison is groundless is silly. Otherwise, we'd have "stereotypes" of "oh those silly black people, going to Mars for 2 weeks in the summer and eating their weight in reconstituted oysters whenever baseball season rolls around." It'd be gobbledygook, and hence would have no lasting power at all.
Stereotypes certainly come from somewhere, but that doesn't automatically mean that the source is valid. Think about the stereotypical racist caricature of black people from the first half of the 20th century. Just because those are based on stereotypes doesn't make them valid or accurate, nor should the stereotype be given any credence. The same could be said for stereotypes regarding behavior. Stereotypes are self-perpetuating. I'd say it's pretty likely that behavioral stereotypes strongly establish an expectation for behavior that, upon being fulfilled and observed, reinforces that stereotype.
 

ElJuski

Staff member
Gruebeard said:
ElJuski said:
it is in the inversion of those stereotypes, not the boring use of old stereotypes. I honestly don't know where you're getting that "stereotypes are comedy gold".
So why exactly do you think I'm not referring to the creative use of stereotypes?
Because of the "flaming gay" and "geek with odor issues". If you met the inversion of stereotypes you would have said the inversion of stereotypes. But you're not. They are completely different things and it sounds like you're trying to change tack here to save face.
 
S

Steven Soderburgin

ElJuski, I'd just like to say that your posts in this thread are great. Keep up the good work.
 

Cajungal

Staff member
Also, agree with Kissinger on stereotypes being not always based on truth and a self-fulfilling prophecy. :(

Seriously, all my lessons from the past 2 years are coming flowing back this week.
 

ElJuski

Staff member
Kissinger said:
ElJuski, I'd just like to say that your posts in this thread are great. Keep up the good work.
I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not, but I'd like to hope that you're not!
 
S

Steven Soderburgin

Cajungal said:
I don't think there's anything wrong with acknowledging that stereotypes are there and are based a lot on truth. I've witnessed so many of them. Do I think that's GOOD? No, but denying that there is truth in them isn't bad. Facing that fact is good, because then maybe we can start moving away from those stereotypes.

A good example of this is a documentary I watched for one of my education classes called "Acting White." It was about how intelligent black students at many poorer, inner-city public schools were being harassed for their good grades and general success. They were viewed as traitors by some people in the black community. Why? Because some black people in the community considered good grades, Standard English, and setting lofty goals in general as inherently white traits. They even had a black musician give an interview. He says he is "practically bilingual." When he is with his friends he uses their slang. But any other time, he speaks standard English. He doesn't feel he can share that part of himself with the guys in the community of his youth. If we ignore this stereotype--if we are offended just by the mentioning of it--there's no way for us to examine ourselves and our communities and help to change it.

And I've laughed at stereotypes in film and TV. Sometimes they make good observations. There are people out there who prefer to adopt some safe, mass persona rather than be a complex individual with a mind of their own. And that's laughable.
This is essentially what I'm talking about, other that the thing about stereotypes being based in a lot of truth, which I actually think is pretty incongruous to the rest of the post.
 
Mine happen to be great too. :ugeek:

-- Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:43 pm --

Kissinger said:
This is essentially what I'm talking about, other that the thing about stereotypes being based in a lot of truth, which I actually think is pretty incongruous to the rest of the post.
If you're quibble is with "a lot" I suppose I can get on board. If it is with "a grain of", we might still disagree. I really do get the impression you are coming from a tabula rasa standpoint, which I simply do not believe is founded.
 
K

Kitty Sinatra

ElJuski said:
Gruebeard said:
ElJuski said:
it is in the inversion of those stereotypes, not the boring use of old stereotypes. I honestly don't know where you're getting that "stereotypes are comedy gold".
So why exactly do you think I'm not referring to the creative use of stereotypes?
Because of the "flaming gay" and "geek with odor issues". If you met the inversion of stereotypes you would have said the inversion of stereotypes. But you're not. They are completely different things and it sounds like you're trying to change tack here to save face.
hmm. Obviously the longer this goes on the more muddled my point is going to get. I provided those as examples of stereotypes that exist. I never talked about their use.

As for stereotypes in comedy: I've been calling them a "basis" with the expectation that y'all reading would fill in some blanks.That is, right from the start I expected you to think of things like the inversion of stereotypes you say is in Harold and Kumar and think "haha, awesome use of a stereotype to produce comedy gold"
 

ElJuski

Staff member
Gruebeard said:
ElJuski said:
Gruebeard said:
ElJuski said:
it is in the inversion of those stereotypes, not the boring use of old stereotypes. I honestly don't know where you're getting that "stereotypes are comedy gold".
So why exactly do you think I'm not referring to the creative use of stereotypes?
Because of the "flaming gay" and "geek with odor issues". If you met the inversion of stereotypes you would have said the inversion of stereotypes. But you're not. They are completely different things and it sounds like you're trying to change tack here to save face.
hmm. Obviously the longer this goes on the more muddled my point is going to get. I provided those as examples of stereotypes that exist. I never talked about their use.

As for stereotypes in comedy: I've been calling them a "basis" with the expectation that y'all reading would fill in some blanks.That is, right from the start I expected you to think of things like the inversion of stereotypes you say is in Harold and Kumar and think "haha, awesome use of a stereotype to produce comedy gold"
You know, I'm smarter than I look. Smart enough where I don't go ahead assuming what posters are thinking when they are writing something completely different. And using stereotypes and inverting stereotypes are two completely different concepts. One of them is lower level thinking and the other requires examination of the stereotype and breaking down the pieces to reach comedic effect.

That is, a stereotype does not require intelligence, just social repetition and assimilation. Black people like purple drink, haha.

Inverting a stereotype requires understanding (A) that social assimilation, and then (B) considering the absurdity of that social assimilation.
 

Cajungal

Staff member
I should have said "some" truth, not "a lot" honestly. Because I don't believe that stereotypes are based on 100% or even 75, 50% truth... but probably bits of it here and there. Don't know why I wrote it that way, but I take it back.
 
S

Steven Soderburgin

MindDetective said:
If you're quibble is with "a lot" I suppose I can get on board. If it is with "a grain of", we might still disagree. I really do get the impression you are coming from a tabula rasa standpoint, which I simply do not believe is founded.
Not entirely tabula rasa, but I highly doubt the built in knowledge and experiences we have at birth are the same or even mostly the same across the board.
 
Denbrought said:
makare1 said:
See now here is something that crosses the line from sexist to misogynistic to boop you * really quick
WTF seriously
Funny how it says "Contract of Wifely Expectations" right on the first page yet the fourth one says "This is not a contract"." :eyeroll:
This guy could have just found someone with a submissive/slave fetish, problem solved.
Agreed..this looks like some fairly standard Dominance/submission fare. Who's to say that's not the kind of relationship that the couple enjoyed until they broke up?
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Kissinger said:
GasBandit said:
Stereotypes form the way they do as a parody of observed tendency. Yes, they can be hurtful. Yes, they have no bearing on the actual idiosyncrasies of the individual. But to say they their comparison is groundless is silly. Otherwise, we'd have "stereotypes" of "oh those silly black people, going to Mars for 2 weeks in the summer and eating their weight in reconstituted oysters whenever baseball season rolls around." It'd be gobbledygook, and hence would have no lasting power at all.
Stereotypes certainly come from somewhere, but that doesn't automatically mean that the source is valid. Think about the stereotypical racist caricature of black people from the first half of the 20th century. Just because those are based on stereotypes doesn't make them valid or accurate, nor should the stereotype be given any credence. The same could be said for stereotypes regarding behavior. Stereotypes are self-perpetuating. I'd say it's pretty likely that behavioral stereotypes strongly establish an expectation for behavior that, upon being fulfilled and observed, reinforces that stereotype.

Your honor, every-ting dat guy just said is bullshit.
(Stereotype humor for the +1)



Except for the part maybe about where they reinforce themselves. All bad habits are self-perpetuating. But that they are doesn't make them false.
 
Kissinger said:
MindDetective said:
If you're quibble is with "a lot" I suppose I can get on board. If it is with "a grain of", we might still disagree. I really do get the impression you are coming from a tabula rasa standpoint, which I simply do not believe is founded.
Not entirely tabula rasa, but I highly doubt the built in knowledge and experiences we have at birth are the same or even mostly the same across the board.
There will definitely be individual variability. We clearly are not all clones of each other. This is the fundamental notion behind believing homosexuality may have a genetic precursor. But that pesky Y chromosome produces some pretty dramatic, systematic shifts in physiology as well as neurology. It would be a bit disingenuous to suggest that there would be perfect overlap in all measures of individual differences (including emotionality, intelligence, personality characteristics, etc.) between the entire spectrum of male population and the entire spectrum of the female population when they clearly do not overlap neurologically.
 
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