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A Loki Place for Spoilers

Jun 9, 2021#1

ThatNickGuy

So, figured we could have a thread for Loki spoilers since it's gonna be a thing.

The first episode was...okay, I guess? I don't know. I enjoyed it. I like the spin with the bureaucratic TVA. I like how they handled the Infinity Stones. It's enjoyable enough that I'll keep watching, but it doesn't make me immediately what to see the next episode.

As I was watching it, I asked myself, "What major character developments has this Loki missed out on?" and I realized his mother's death was a big one and was probably his biggest turning point. And sure enough, that's exactly what they zeroed in on. Good call.

But honestly, I'm not crazy about the possible villain, at least for now, being another Loki. That's taking the "every Marvel villain is just an evil version of themselves" a little too literally. Asking for Kang would be asking for too much, of course, but still. Another Loki is disappointing.

Still, as I said, I'll keep watching for now, but I'm not as eager on future episodes as I was with Falcon & Winter Soldier or definitely not WandaVision.

EDIT: Actually, an additional thought. Why the hell was Avengers Endgame "supposed to happen" according to the TVA or the Time Keepers? Loki is honestly right there. The Avengers ran totally amok with time, even if Cap might go back and try to "fix" some of that. Thanos yanking himself and his army out of his own timestream into the present seems like a pretty big variant that shouldn't have happened?

Jun 9, 2021#2

Shawn

We have been told it’s another Loki who is the villain. But the thing is we were deliberately not shown confirmation of this. The scene after we find out that it’s a variant of Loki who is killing the agents would be the obvious time to reveal “evil” Loki. But they for some reason still keep him in shadow and do not confirm his identity.
From a narrative perspective this means there is more to this other Loki (assuming it is even him) that the show creators don’t want us to know yet.
So either…
1) it’s not really Loki.
2) There is a physical characteristic about this Loki that might identify him from a particular point in his life or a disfigurement that will have a big story impact.

Jun 9, 2021#3

ThatNickGuy

Shawn said:
We have been told it’s another Loki who is the villain. But the thing is we were deliberately not shown confirmation of this. The scene after we find out that it’s a variant of Loki who is killing the agents would be the obvious time to reveal “evil” Loki. But they for some reason still keep him in shadow and do not confirm his identity.
From a narrative perspective this means there is more to this other Loki (assuming it is even him) that the show creators don’t want us to know yet.
So either..z
1) it’s not really Loki.
2) There is a physical characteristic about this Loki that might identify him from a particular point in his life or a disfigurement that will have a big story impact.

They PROBABLY won't go this route, but they could do Lady Loki.

Jun 9, 2021#4

@Li3n

ThatNickGuy said:
But honestly, I'm not crazy about the possible villain, at least for now, being another Loki. That's taking the "every Marvel villain is just an evil version of themselves" a little too literally. Asking for Kang would be asking for too much, of course, but still. Another Loki is disappointing.

But that's the most logical reason why they would need Loki.

If it's just some guy he has no connection to then the TVA is just randomly picking him for plot convenience.

Of course the Other Loki hopefully has a good backstory.

ThatNickGuy said:
Thanos yanking himself and his army out of his own timestream into the present seems like a pretty big variant that shouldn't have happened?

But the variant timeline would be the one Thanos left behind, and they could just erase that one without doing anything to soon-to-be-non-existant-alt-Thanos.

Jun 9, 2021#5

MindDetective

re: Loki - as the villain. It definitely makes the most sense. Loki the protagonist is an established loser, cheat, liar, and too ambitious for his own good. He would be ineffective against most people that the TVA couldn't handle. But a villain that is just like him? They definitely could use Loki's expertise for that.

re: Lady Loki - as the villain. My initial thought was that Protagonist Loki will turn into villain Loki at the end of the series. But I like female Loki as the villain MUCH better. There has been some press confirming Loki's gender fluidity, so it is not out of the realm of possibility!

re: Endgame - Thanos and his crew were snapped out of existence by Tony Stark, so the TVA did not need to intervene for that reason. And the repercussions of that fight might be important for the Sacred Timeline, so intervening could arguably make things worse if, let's say mutants don't come into existence or the Fantastic Four doesn't happen as a result.

Jun 10, 2021#6

Shawn

I do not believe it will be a female Loki. At least not at this time.
They have referred to the killer variant as a "he".

Jun 10, 2021#7

MindDetective

Shawn said:
I do not believe it will be a female Loki. At least not at this time.
They have referred to the killer variant as a "he".

That's a good point. Gender fluidity will enter the picture another way, then.

Jun 10, 2021#8

bhamv3

Aww, I wanted to speculate possible actresses for female Loki. The first candidate that came to mind was Sarah Silverman.

EDIT: Cause Matt Damon has played Loki, and... well...

Jun 10, 2021#9

ThatNickGuy

bhamv3 said:
Aww, I wanted to speculate possible actresses for female Loki. The first candidate that came to mind was Sarah Silverman.

EDIT: Cause Matt Damon has played Loki, and... well...

*sings* And she's fucking Matt Damon!

Jun 10, 2021#10

bhamv3

ThatNickGuy said:
*sings* And she's fucking Matt Damon!

♩ ♪ On the bed, on the floor♫ ♬
♩ ♪ On a towel by the door♫ ♬
♩ ♪ In the tub, in the car♫ ♬
♩ ♪ Up against the mini-bar♫ ♬

Jun 10, 2021#11

General Specific

Watched an easter egg video by ScreenCrush and he pointed out that in the comics the Time Keepers were brought into existence by a being at the end of their timeline who went back in time to the beginning to specifically create them. So, they are protecting the timeline that leads to their own creation, not necessarily what is the "best" timeline.

This may be true for the show as well. All of the TVA has a vested interest in ensuring this timeline exists because, without it, they don't.

"Evil" Loki may be fighting them in order to create a new timeline that doesn't have the Time Keepers or TVA to interfere with their plans. I use "they" there because we don't know if the Evil Loki is male or female and there was a shot when flipping through Main Loki's file that listed his gender as "fluid."

I honestly think that the Evil Loki is Lady Loki as otherwise, they likely would have shown us his face during the attack on the TVA Agents at the end to hammer home that this is an alternate version of Loki. Not showing us anything about the character means, to me, that there is some key detail that would be given away by appearance alone. Either that means a gender swap as has been speculated about since images of a woman in a very Loki-ish costume surfaced during filming or a different character entirely that appears to be emulating Loki. This might make the show similar to Silence of the Lambs, if true.

Jun 10, 2021#12

ScytheRexx

Since this is a spoiler thread (leak)

it's already been leaked that the villain is Lady Loki. She is played by Sophia Di Martino. The reason they think it's a "He" is because everyone that has actually come into contact with this Variant Loki has been killed, and they only know it's Loki through detective work (the way the victims were stabbed, the kids profiling, likely many more clues from past investigations, etc)

Jun 10, 2021#13

Dave

Well there's spoilers for things that are in the show and then there's leaked spoilers for things to come that people like myself knew nothing about.

Jun 10, 2021#14

ScytheRexx

Ah my bad. I will spoiler it and be better next time. My mistake.

Jun 10, 2021#15

Dave

Not to worry, man. You're right that it IS a spoiler thread.

Jun 10, 2021#16

Bubble181

I'd have enjoyed a Loki played by Hemsworth, from a universe where Thor looks like Hiddleston too.

Jun 10, 2021#17

Celt Z

If we're going to see variant Lokis, they really should make one Matt Damon.

Jun 10, 2021#18

Dave

Celt Z said:
If we're going to see variant Lokis, they really should make one Matt Damon.

Don't read Twitter.

Jun 10, 2021#19

Shawn

The flow of time in the MCU is very confusing.

Smart Hulk's explanation of time flow and how time travel doesn't actually change your future suggests the existence of branches occurring. But the TVA insists there is only a single timeline and they clip those branches as they happen.
In a way this kind of makes sense. Regardless of what the Avengers did their changing of the future would be corrected by the TVA. But this goes against what was told to them by the Supreme Sorceress who insisted that their branch reality would not go unprotected without the Infinity Stones and that they must be returned. But with the TVA around there would be absolutely no need to return the stones at all because that branch would be "pruned" anyway.
And then there is the matter of Steve being allowed to stay in the past after returning the stones. Apparently the TVA doesn't have a concern with heroes breaking the rules, but on villains they put their foot down.

Jun 10, 2021#20

evilmike

Jun 10, 2021#21

Ravenpoe

Shawn said:
And then there is the matter of Steve being allowed to stay in the past after returning the stones. Apparently the TVA doesn't have a concern with heroes breaking the rules, but on villains they put their foot down.

As quoted by the judge, that was "supposed to happen"

Jun 10, 2021#22

Shawn

Ravenpoe said:
As quoted by the judge, that was "supposed to happen"

Which, kinda sucks a bit, because it implies that no one has a choice and there is no fight that is won simply because someone was better than someone else. It just means that any fight they didn't win was simply erased from time.

Jun 10, 2021#23

ScytheRexx

That is the thing about time. Technically, the TVA may have not existed until recently. Who can say? By the nature of being able to travel through time they can take part in any event at any point, so were they created thousands of years ago? Millions? Were they created in the past? The future? WHO KNOWS!

My theory? The Avengers, unintentionally, created the TVA. Much like the comics, the Time Keepers were not created at the start of the Universe, but at the end of it. The stuff that the Avengers did in Endgame caused a rupture in time that created all the errant timelines that made up the multiverse, and those timelines came into conflict at some future date, not in the past. Out of this conflict the Time Keepers are born far into the future, and decide to consolidate all the timelines into a single one they deem to be the best one, aka the Sacred Timeline. They just happened to choose the one that the MCU has taken place in. In a way, it's a "cheat" because that means the TVA wouldn't, TECHNICALLY, be watching over what the Avengers did in Endgame and helping them, because that stuff already happened, in a way, to them, and they just are making sure it continues to happen as it did before they came to "exist". Does your head hurt yet?

By the end, Loki is going to do something that causes the whole machine to crumble and likely the TVA is going to be either destroyed or an event changed that caused them to never to come exist in the first place, like stopping the birth of the Time Keepers. This would, in essence, allow all those variant timelines to be reborn again, as the lack of TVA means they never went back in time to erase them in the first place. Now I bet your head hurts.

Jun 11, 2021#24

klew

Wonder if the show might hint that any of Dr Strange's 14 million+ outcomes to beat Thanos had any interference from the TVA, or would those not technically be variant timelines? Did the time stone actually allow Dr Strange to live through all those timelines, or act more as a remote viewing device?

Jun 11, 2021#25

Ravenpoe

Shawn said:
Which, kinda sucks a bit, because it implies that no one has a choice and there is no fight that is won simply because someone was better than someone else. It just means that any fight they didn't win was simply erased from time.

That's actually one of the things I really like about this series, it's leaning into the existential crisis of determinism that should crop up any time that time travel is involved.

Jun 11, 2021#26

Shawn

On a completely different note: I want to see that awesome "elevator" clothing destroying robot again.

Jun 11, 2021#27

Tiger Tsang

Shawn said:
On a completely different note: I want to see that awesome "elevator" clothing destroying robot again.

*cringes, humming and rocking softly in the corner and whispers* "You don't, you really don't"

Jun 11, 2021#28

ScytheRexx

The way its face distorts like an old TV was a great touch. You can see it really well in how the smile kind of creeps in.

Jun 13, 2021#29

figmentPez

What if the Variant Loki isn't an MCU Loki at all, but a remnant from the multiversal war that the TVA put an end to?

Jun 13, 2021#30

Fun Size

Am I the only one who saw the stained glass window and thought they were immediately trolling about Mephisto?

Jun 13, 2021#31

Tiger Tsang

Fun Size said:
Am I the only one who saw the stained glass window and thought they were immediately trolling about Mephisto?

Initially, yes or somesuch, but then someone pointed out Loki's old helmet.

*edit*
Heh, at this point, Mephisto has been teased/bandied about in the MCU fandom so much, I actually doubt, besides a reference, he'll ever make an appearance.

Jun 13, 2021#32

ScytheRexx

Some people have also noted that in mythology Loki and Satan have overlapping motifs too.

Jun 13, 2021#33

ScytheRexx

Tiger Tsang said:
Heh, at this point, Mephisto has been teased/bandied about in the MCU fandom so much, I actually doubt, besides a reference, he'll ever make an appearance.

If I am being honest, it feels like Marvel Studios has been attempting to avoid overt theocratic tones in the MCU. Mephisto is basically Marvel's "Satan", and so I don't see them actually bringing him in. Even the stuff with Witches we saw in Wandavision seemed more tied to the Sorcerers and Doctor Strange, rather then actual Christian occultism.

Jun 13, 2021#34

@Li3n

ScytheRexx said:
Mephisto is basically Marvel's "Satan", and so I don't see them actually bringing him in.

Actually Marvel's "Satan" is whoever is Daemon and Satana's father at this time.

Anyone know if it's still Marduk Kurios ?

...

And, interestingly enough, Mephisto was actually a Silver Surfer villain first: https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Silver_Surfer_Vol_1_3

He only later got nominated as the hell lord that gave Ghost Rider his powers in order to make it not be the Christian Satan.

Jun 15, 2021#35

figmentPez

Loki / Stitch fanart

Jun 16, 2021#36

Shawn

Episode 2:
Still loving this series. And I was thinking we'd have to wait until the end of the season to find out what Loki Variant 2 was up to.

Jun 16, 2021#37

GasBandit

Shawn said:
Episode 2:
Still loving this series. And I was thinking we'd have to wait until the end of the season to find out what Loki Variant 2 was up to.

It was Agatha ALL a-LOOOONG :notes:

Jun 16, 2021#38

Celt Z

Anybody else pause the screen to see the list of places affected by Variant-Loki's attack? Better go get those paper weights!

Jun 16, 2021#39

Dave

Celt Z said:
Anybody else pause the screen to see the list of places affected by Variant-Loki's attack? Better go get those paper weights!

Going to go back and do that now.

Found this online so I didn't have to:

08.03.1522 Phong Nha, Vietnam
03.31.1492 Lisbon, Portugal
04.23.2301 Vormir
10.25.1551 Thorton, USA
11.22.1999 Cookeville, USA
02.16.2004 Asgard
10.03.1390 Rome, Italy
08.13.1984 Sakaar, Tayo
02.02.1808 Barichara, (Col)
07.14.1708 Porvoo, Finland
12.27.1382 Ego
10.13.1982 Titan
09.21.1947 New York, USA
03.01.1984 Tokyo, Japan
01.03.0051 Hala
08.02.1999 Kingsport, USA
09.24.1001 Xandar
11.23.2005 Beijing, China
07.18.1903 Madrid, Spain

Jun 16, 2021#40

ScytheRexx

Honestly I am just curious how the whole thing worked.

The whole point of those reset charges is that they reset a timeline to be back on the Sacred Timeline by deleting anything considered a Variant to that time, like for example the minute men that were killed in the 1985 timeline. They basically reverse any changes in that specific point in time back to where it needs to be. If that was the case, why would sending them to different places randomly in time cause them to make branching timelines instead? What would they be deleting that would cause those changes? Unless... Maybe the timeline we are on isn't actually the "Sacred Timeline". Maybe the Time Keepers crafted the Sacred Timeline using their own Variants, and Lady Loki attacked those moments using the reset charges knowing that by doing so it would delete the Time Keeper's Variants and throw all those points onto their old paths, thus causing the breakdown. So many things to consider.

Also was anyone a LITTLE BIT uncomfortable from the whole 2050 segment? The fact is was a hurricane hitting Alabama, the fact it was super powerful because of climate change, the huge Walmart ripoff that towered over the rest of the city like it was straight out of Idiocracy, even down to the little joke about the guy taking part in the "Hurricane Sale" while under the control of Lady Loki? Maybe it's just my own fears of all that becoming our actual reality, but it really took me out of the show for a minute.

Jun 16, 2021#41

Shawn

Dave said:
Going to go back and do that now.

Found this online so I didn't have to:

08.03.1522 Phong Nha, Vietnam
03.31.1492 Lisbon, Portugal
04.23.2301 Vormir
10.25.1551 Thorton, USA
11.22.1999 Cookeville, USA
02.16.2004 Asgard
10.03.1390 Rome, Italy
08.13.1984 Sakaar, Tayo
02.02.1808 Barichara, (Col)
07.14.1708 Porvoo, Finland
12.27.1382 Ego
10.13.1982 Titan
09.21.1947 New York, USA
03.01.1984 Tokyo, Japan
01.03.0051 Hala
08.02.1999 Kingsport, USA
09.24.1001 Xandar
11.23.2005 Beijing, China
07.18.1903 Madrid, Spain

That’s a lot of Earth specific locations for a timeline that includes all of reality.

Jun 16, 2021#42

ScytheRexx

Shawn said:
That’s a lot of Earth specific locations for a timeline that includes all of reality.

This is just comic book movies in general. Since we are from Earth, we are pretty much the center of everything in any story while also maintaining an oddly detached existence from the rest of space. They made fun of this in Endgame when the crew are trying to figure out how to get as many infinity stones as possible with only a limited amount of Pym Particles, and realized three of the six stones were in New York at the exact same time.

It honestly kind of drives me crazy, because when you look at the rest of the galaxy they are all intermingling to some degree other then Earth. Even back when all we had in space was Asgard and the Nine Realms, they made it out like Asgardians had a close relationship with most of the Nine Realms, but just kind of didn't give a shit about Earth for thousands of years until they sent Thor there. Then GOTG happens and there is a vast network of interconnected space civilizations, all having trade / wars / squabbles / adventures / similar currencies with each other and then over here is Earth, just kind of chilling until the random cosmic being takes a road trip or wants a vacation or kidnaps a kid. I mean, Tony Starks old suits are pretty cool, but did you know Rocket Raccoon can repair critically damaged space ships with a paint sprayer thing?

Even after Endgame do you think the President is going to be visiting Xandar in the interest of strong galactic relations considering the GOTG took a big part in the final battle on Earth? Probably not.

Jun 16, 2021#43

ScytheRexx

Going back to the show at hand...

I would give anything to see half of those places with the TVA.

I keep imagine characters like Ego, Red Skull, or The Grandmaster all watching confused as a bunch of Minutemen appear out of nowhere and start setting off a reset charge.

Jun 16, 2021#44

MindDetective

ScytheRexx said:
This is just comic book movies in general. Since we are from Earth, we are pretty much the center of everything in any story while also maintaining an oddly detached existence from the rest of space. They made fun of this in Endgame when the crew are trying to figure out how to get as many infinity stones as possible with only a limited amount of Pym Particles, and realized three of the six stones were in New York at the exact same time.

It honestly kind of drives me crazy, because when you look at the rest of the galaxy they are all intermingling to some degree other then Earth. Even back when all we had in space was Asgard and the Nine Realms, they made it out like Asgardians had a close relationship with most of the Nine Realms, but just kind of didn't give a shit about Earth for thousands of years until they sent Thor there. Then GOTG happens and there is a vast network of interconnected space civilizations, all having trade / wars / squabbles / adventures / similar currencies with each other and then over here is Earth, just kind of chilling until the random cosmic being takes a road trip or wants a vacation or kidnaps a kid. I mean, Tony Starks old suits are pretty cool, but did you know Rocket Raccoon can repair critically damaged space ships with a paint sprayer thing?

Even after Endgame do you think the President is going to be visiting Xandar in the interest of strong galactic relations considering the GOTG took a big part in the final battle on Earth? Probably not.

A lot of what you said applies still in spite of this, but GotG takes place in the Andromeda Galaxy and not the Milky Way.

Jun 16, 2021#45

Krisken

I loved it, absolutely loved Episode 2. If they can keep this up, it will easily be the best of the Marvel TV shows so far, and I liked WandaVision and Falcon & the Winter Soldier.

Jun 16, 2021#46

ScytheRexx

MindDetective said:
A lot of what you said applies still in spite of this, but GotG takes place in the Andromeda Galaxy and not the Milky Way.

To be perfectly honest, this makes it even WEIRDER to me.

You can kind of make sense of all this stuff happening and overlapping a little when all these places are part of the same galaxy, but now we are finding out people like the GOTG, Thanos, The Kree, Captain Marvel, The Skrulls, etc were actually zipping the distance BETWEEN TWO WHOLE GALAXIES within a short period and still stumbling onto Earth over everything else.

Jun 16, 2021#47

Adam

Just watched it, very into this police procedural in the Marvel Universe, with my strong strong prediction that i feel is to come:

Lady Loki is our MCU Enchantress.

And I am ALL IN on that.

Jun 16, 2021#48

ScytheRexx

Back to Loki... some possible theory spoilers depending how right or wrong I end up.

Guys, I was thinking more about the stuff I mentioned earlier and even watched the episode again, and you know my theory about the Time Keepers using Variants to keep the Sacred Timeline flowing? That Lady Loki used the reset charges to remove those "maintainer" Variants in order to throw the entire timeline into disarray? Well, it hit me...

The TVA are ALL VARIANTS.

I can't believe I didn't put two and two together when the "reset charge" made their corpses vanish in 1985, but the Time Keepers didn't just burp out all these people at some point in time, these people were plucked from past Variant timelines just like Loki was, were likely brainwashed or reprogramed, and kept on to keep the Sacred Timeline flowing for all of time. This is why they all seem to be regular humans, and why they appreciate humans aesthetics, analog machines, justice with judges, etc. This is why that commander that was captured was sitting there saying "It was real" and "I want to go home", she likely had dreams of her past timeline and something Lady Loki did broke the programming, making her realize it was real all along.

I bet you money that Mobius himself was likely plucked from the 1990s which is why he is obsessed with the Jetski and soda pop. It's not just a passing fascination, it was once his life before whatever timeline he came from ceased to exist. In a way, this gives the Time Keepers near unlimited soldiers. I wonder how many of those other buildings are filled with other Mobius', all doing other jobs, all from other Variant timelines (OMG THE SCENE WHERE ROVANNA SAYS HE ISN'T THE ONLY ANALYST WORKING FOR HER!). This shit might be getting insane soon.

Jun 17, 2021#49

Shawn

ScytheRexx said:
Back to Loki... some possible theory spoilers depending how right or wrong I end up.

Guys, I was thinking more about the stuff I mentioned earlier and even watched the episode again, and you know my theory about the Time Keepers using Variants to keep the Sacred Timeline flowing? That Lady Loki used the reset charges to remove those "maintainer" Variants in order to throw the entire timeline into disarray? Well, it hit me...

The TVA are ALL VARIANTS.

I can't believe I didn't put two and two together when the "reset charge" made their corpses vanish in 1985, but the Time Keepers didn't just burp out all these people at some point in time, these people were plucked from past Variant timelines just like Loki was, were likely brainwashed or reprogramed, and kept on to keep the Sacred Timeline flowing for all of time. This is why they all seem to be regular humans, and why they appreciate humans aesthetics, analog machines, justice with judges, etc. This is why that commander that was captured was sitting there saying "It was real" and "I want to go home", she likely had dreams of her past timeline and something Lady Loki did broke the programming, making her realize it was real all along.

I bet you money that Mobius himself was likely plucked from the 1990s which is why he is obsessed with the Jetski and soda pop. It's not just a passing fascination, it was once his life before whatever timeline he came from ceased to exist. In a way, this gives the Time Keepers near unlimited soldiers. I wonder how many of those other buildings are filled with other Mobius', all doing other jobs, all from other Variant timelines (OMG THE SCENE WHERE ROVANNA SAYS HE ISN'T THE ONLY ANALYST WORKING FOR HER!). This shit might be getting insane soon.

A cool idea. The Jet Ski thing has to come up somehow. I was thinking that they would somehow use JetSkis to save the day in the final episode, but I like your idea better. Especially with the Josta cans that Mobius has been drinking he definitely has a very 90s feeling about him. There are also two locations on that list of attacked times that are in 1999. Cookeville and Kingsport. Maybe Mobius is from one of those locations and that was why it was targeted in particular.

Jun 18, 2021#50

HCGLNS

Adam said:
Just watched it, very into this police procedural in the Marvel Universe, with my strong strong prediction that i feel is to come:

Lady Loki is our MCU Enchantress.

And I am ALL IN on that.

No, it's more of a MCU blend. She's the daughter of Lauffey, but MCU is borrowing various Enchantress bits like the name Sylvie.

Jun 18, 2021#51

ScytheRexx

Really feeling my theory is going to be true the more and more I peek at old clips.

Watching the moment when Mobius is inside Renslayer's office for the first time that episode, they allude that Mobius brings her back souvenirs from time. He makes a comment about one he didn't remember bringing back for her, and she mentions how she has more Analysts then just him. Later on, when he takes a drink and sets it on a table, Renslayer chides him for not using a coaster.

"Mobius!"
"What? The rings are already there.
"Yes, and they are all from you."
(whispers) "Or maybe your other favorite Analyst."

The whole scene is very overt in a deeper meaning, even going so far as to zoom in on him setting down the glass and later the coaster. This isn't just a throw away moment, it's setting up something. He later, once again, comments about the other Analyst while signing the paperwork with a pen he didn't recognize.

I looked into the comics, and most of the TVA are basically clones of Mobius, so I really feel by the end of this we are going to find out that Renslayer has an army of Mobius' doing various jobs around different departments of the TVA, none of them knowing the others exist due to the pure size of the place. This is going to lead to Mobius himself questioning his own existence and ultimately where he came from, leading to him helping Loki with some final event that likely sets up the Multiverse. (and involves riding Jetskis')

Jun 18, 2021#52

AshburnerX

Shawn said:
A cool idea. The Jet Ski thing has to come up somehow. I was thinking that they would somehow use JetSkis to save the day in the final episode, but I like your idea better. Especially with the Josta cans that Mobius has been drinking he definitely has a very 90s feeling about him. There are also two locations on that list of attacked times that are in 1999. Cookeville and Kingsport. Maybe Mobius is from one of those locations and that was why it was targeted in particular.

Considering Josta was only made from 1995 to 1999 (and was the first Energy Drink in the US!) it's entirely likely Mobius is from the late 90's.

Also... the advertisement for Josta?

"Woulda. Shoulda. Coulda." and "Better do the good stuff now"? That's kind of talking about Mobius as a person, isn't it? He thinks jet skis are great and, if he's from the late 90's like they seem to hint he is, then he plenty of opportunity to ride one. But now he can't; he's with the TVA and he's never going to get that chance again. Except he's got Loki just flat out telling him "Why the fuck not? You've got all the time in the world."

Or maybe I'm just reading too much into a soft drink.

Jun 18, 2021#53

sixpackshaker

The coaster was a hexagon!!!

Jun 18, 2021#54

Shawn

AshburnerX said:
Considering Josta was only made from 1995 to 1999 (and was the first Energy Drink in the US!) it's entirely likely Mobius is from the late 90's.

Also... the advertisement for Josta?

"Woulda. Shoulda. Coulda." and "Better do the good stuff now"? That's kind of talking about Mobius as a person, isn't it? He thinks jet skis are great and, if he's from the late 90's like they seem to hint he is, then he plenty of opportunity to ride one. But now he can't; he's with the TVA and he's never going to get that chance again. Except he's got Loki just flat out telling him "Why the fuck not? You've got all the time in the world."

Or maybe I'm just reading too much into a soft drink.

Mobius believes he was created by the Time Keepers. I don’t think he has any idea that he and everyone else might be just plucked from time, mind wiped, and then given jobs after a thorough brain washing. But those little bits of their personalities still remain.

Jun 19, 2021#55

Shawn

I've been thinking about the whole Timeline thing when it comes to the MCU and the time travel of Endgame.
* Professor Hulk explains that time travel doesn't affect your future. This plays into the TVA's description of a nexus event where something that WOULD affect the timeline actually splits it off into an entirely separate timeline. It is the nature of the universe to branch off timelines when time itself is changed, but it is the TVA that have disrupted that nature.
* The Supreme Sorceress basically explains the idea of branching timelines to Professor Hulk when he comes back for the Time Stone. She indicates that removing the stone from that timeline would doom it. Now she specifically says that the timeline would be unprotected from the forces of evil, so I don't think she's actually referring to the TVA completely pruning the timeline. Maybe she doesn't even know about the TVA even though she's been protecting the Time Stone.
* If the TVA is allowing the Avengers to remove the stones, that must mean that returning the stones likely keeps the timeline from branching off. If they didn't return the stones then the branched off timelines would just be pruned before anything bad happened to them anyway.
* This finally explains to me why Old Steve Rogers shows up at the end of Endgame. When he goes back he is in the "sacred timeline" still, but he causes absolutely no disruptions of the timeline while he is with Peggy (and if he ever did he probably ended up dealing with the TVA). This means that Peggy kept cap secret from even family members because even Sharon didn't know about Uncle Steve. Which makes that kiss in Captain America 2 pretty creepy. That cap also had to sit idly by while bad things were happening for the 60+ years.

Jun 19, 2021#56

ScytheRexx

Shawn said:
The Supreme Sorceress basically explains the idea of branching timelines to Professor Hulk when he comes back for the Time Stone. She indicates that removing the stone from that timeline would doom it. Now she specifically says that the timeline would be unprotected from the forces of evil, so I don't think she's actually referring to the TVA completely pruning the timeline. Maybe she doesn't even know about the TVA even though she's been protecting the Time Stone.

You have to take into context what happened in Doctor Strange for what she said to make sense. She knows that Steven Strange was destined to use the Time Stone to defeat Dormammu and stop him from merging his dimension with our dimension. By taking the Time Stone, the Avengers would create a timeline where the Time Stone was not around for Steven Strange to use in the future, and thus Dormammu would have nothing to stop him from using his minions to merge the dimensions and doom that timeline. That is why she said taking it would doom their timeline to the forces of evil.

It was only when she learned that Steven Strange was the one that set all these events in motion that she went along with it, because she trusted him based on what she knew about his future.

Jun 19, 2021#57

ScytheRexx

As an addon.

I don't think the Ancient One knew about the TVA, but I don't think it's because she was ignorant of their existence. I think they just didn't exist till "now". Like the Time Keepers came into existence itself based on something the Avengers did when they did the time heist, and they realized all those others timelines in which they didn't exist kind of sucked, so they decided to just consolidate time into the one they liked using Variants to influence key moments, which just so happened to "originate" at the time heist event. This is why they likely were dealing with a lot of Loki variants, because all the biggest events that lead to this involved Loki and any change to Loki that prevents him from helping form the Avengers isn't kosher to their desires. They need that time heist to happen so they can exist, anything after that they can do whatever they want.

One theory I have, besides "The whole TVA are Variants" theory, is that the timeline we are on ISN'T the real timeline. Why? Well think about that whole ROXXCART scene. 2050 literally has a Hurricane ripping through a town in Alabama that is going to kill thousands of people only 26 years after Endgame. Does that sound like a world stuffed to the brim with people like Captain America, Spider-Man, and all the other dozens of heroes that are starting to appear and likely still doing things? The Eternals? Captain Marvel? Hell, Wakanda is supposed to be doing more to help people around the world and you would think they would have warning of a CAT 11 Hurricane about to erase a small town would lead to some advanced aid. No, I think after the heist, the Time Keepers see heroes willing to subvert time as a BAD thing, and likely did things to get them killed or eliminated over that time period until a world happens where no heroes exist, just regular humans shopping in Idiocracy-style MEGA stores, easy to shape, easy to control, no heroes to save them.

So for the Time Keepers, everything up to Endgame? IT MUST HAPPEN! After that? Now we control the fate of the Universe. We can't change how it starts, but we can control how it ends.

Jun 20, 2021#58

figmentPez

It finally dawned on me what seemed so familiar about the TVA; the concept is a lot like a short story by Issac Asimov called "The End of Eternity". I haven't read it in years, and the Wikipedia entry conflicts with some of what I thought I remembered, so it's possible that my memory has blended multiple stories together.

Jun 20, 2021#59

ThatNickGuy

figmentPez said:
It finally dawned on me what seemed so familiar about the TVA; the concept is a lot like a short story by Issac Asimov called "The End of Eternity". I haven't read it in years, and the Wikipedia entry conflicts with some of what I thought I remembered, so it's possible that my memory has blended multiple stories together.

It wouldn't surprise me if the comic writer who created the TVA in the first place was an Asimov fan and was strongly inspired by that story.

Jun 20, 2021#60

GasBandit

Good thing it was Asimov and not Harlan Ellison.

Jun 20, 2021#61

evilmike

I did a little research to see if Walt Simonson had talked about the inspiration for the TVA. I was surprised to find that the initials of the organization was really from the most obvious source.

Also, CBR quotes Simonson about his inspiration for the TVA:

Actually, the TVA had nothing to do with Doctor Who. Where do these ideas come from? Just curious. Did you read this somewhere? I've never seen any Doctor Who programs although I drew a few Doctor Who illustrations a zillion years ago for Marvel.

The TVA (Time Variance Authority) was a satire of bureaucracy in general and of Marvel at that particular time and place as the company was moving towards a more corporate model. (The initials of the TVA were taken from the Tennessee Valley Authority, one of the New Deal developments during the depression.) The point of the TVA is that it was an infinite organization and still expanding (a new desk and monitor for each new universe born out of every possible time bifurcation). The office environment was the perfect visual symbol for a bureaucracy as were all the faceless monitors. The one character with a face was middle management and his was the only face you ever saw.

Which is another way of saying that there was no upper management visible. It's possible one didn't exist. Or if it did exist, it was irrelevant to the operations of the TVA.

The purpose of the TVA was deliberately vague. Whether or not the TVA had anything to do with the actual management of time remains a mystery. It's possible it existed to serve itself and had no real function regarding the regulation of time.

Its HQ had a great clock on the front of the facade and the hands of the clock denoted a non-real time.

Jun 20, 2021#62

PatrThom

ThatNickGuy said:
It wouldn't surprise me if the comic writer who created the TVA in the first place was an Asimov fan and was strongly inspired by that story.

I mean, one of the main characters in Asimov's story is named "Harlan" soooo...

--Patrick

Jun 22, 2021#63

Piotyr

I for one am curious if Mobius is

a Howard Stark variant

Jun 22, 2021#64

Celt Z

Piotyr said:
I for one am curious if Mobius is

a Howard Stark variant

When I originally watched the first Loki trailer, at first I thought it was John Slattery, not Owen Wilson until later in the trailer. I'm not used to seeing Owen grey instead of his signature blonde. I don't think he's supposed to have anything to do with Howard Stark, but it's nice to know that since this theory is floating around, I'm not the only one who's brain went there.

Jun 23, 2021#65

ScytheRexx

First off...

My Variant theory was confirmed to be true. The TVA is entirely made up of Variants pulled from lost timelines and made to work for the Time Keepers.

Now on to the episode itself.

They are definitely leaning into this character being a merger of Lady Loki and the classic villain Enchantress. Her powers are all about Enchantment and taking control of others and she renamed herself Sylvie, the same name as the second Enchantress in the comics. Have a good feeling by the end of this we are going to learn she isn't actually a Variant of our specific Loki, but comes from a timeline in which Odin adopted a human instead at some point. Why a human? Well it's mostly that she isn't shown to have the same strength as an Asgardian or Frost Giant, though I admit, they been showing Loki himself a lot weaker in this series then he has ever been, strength wise, so I might be overthinking that one. Either way, it seems they are trying to build the two having a romance, and I find that incredibly in character that the only person Loki could love turned out to be an alternate version of himself.

Jun 23, 2021#66

@Li3n

ScytheRexx said:
First off...

My Variant theory was confirmed to be true. The TVA is entirely made up of Variants pulled from lost timelines and made to work for the Time Keepers.

I mean, there's no other logical way to do it, since

taking anyone out of the timeline without changing it would at the very least require they'd be dead in that timeline starting from that time when they where taken, which would make them being alive the start of an alternate timeline. Obviously being put outside of time negates the new timeline, but they would still count just as much as anyone taken after the timeline split, but was then erased, since neither has a working timeline etc.

Jun 23, 2021#67

ScytheRexx

@Li3n said:
I mean, there's no other logical way to do it, since

taking anyone out of the timeline without changing it would at the very least require they'd be dead in that timeline starting from that time when they where taken, which would make them being alive the start of an alternate timeline. Obviously being put outside of time negates the new timeline, but they would still count just as much as anyone taken after the timeline split, but was then erased, since neither has a working timeline etc.

Never claimed they were from a regular timeline. The reveal that they are all Variants discounts their own notions that the Time Keepers created them.

Now a few questions.

So the majority of the episode takes place on Lamantis-1 in the year 2077, but I couldn't decide whether it was a future human colony of some type, or an entirely alien civilization. It really could go either way considering we have seen countless human-like races around the galaxies like Rhomann Dey, but much of the visual style like the futurish dump trucks, food carts, trains, etc, really felt more human then anything we have seen from other space civilizations.

It really seems like Sylvie does not consider herself a princess in any way, so it makes me question if she was raised by Odin or not. It could be her timeline has an entirely different take on the Loki myth and how she came to take the name before discarding it.

Lastly, why are they flailing around so much and getting beat up by future cops when Loki can look at a falling building and make it REVERSE DIRECTION. They have never showed him have that kind of telepathic strength. Though, honestly, that moment made me form a theory.

Finally, THEORY TIME.

None of that stuff happened. Wait what?

The start of the episode establishes how Sylvie's enchantment powers work, and she basically creates an existence in their mind of a past memory. Later on, she attempts to use her powers on Loki in a rather intimate fashion but he scoffs that her powers won't work on him. I think they did. Sylvie knows the planet from a past visit, using it as a hideout. She never specified the place she goes in their head has to be their own memories, what if they can be her memories too? Considering how she looked at him leading into the touch, I think she is actually curious if he could be trusted. How can you get someone to open up about how they really feel? Well, constant assured destruction has a way of removing any filters one might have. Why bother when you will be dead in moments?

In the end they will be sitting around, watching the planet about to impact them, Loki will show his true self, and Sylvie will pull them out of the enchantment and decide to work with him for real. It will then be a repeat of the same day but completely different, playing into the time motif.

Jun 23, 2021#68

ThatNickGuy

Just a thought, but given that these threads are usually created specifically with spoilers in mind, we probably don't need all the spoiler tags?

Jun 23, 2021#69

Dave

ThatNickGuy said:
Just a thought, but given that these threads are usually created specifically with spoilers in mind, we probably don't need all the spoiler tags?

As long as they are spoilers about the show in question we're fine. But spoilers about "this actor is in IMDB or said this in an interview" should probably still go behind tags.

Jun 23, 2021#70

Shawn

I’m fine with theories being untagged.

ScytheRexx said:
Never claimed they were from a regular timeline. The reveal that they are all Variants discounts their own notions that the Time Keepers created them.

Now a few questions.

So the majority of the episode takes place on Lamantis-1 in the year 2077, but I couldn't decide whether it was a future human colony of some type, or an entirely alien civilization. It really could go either way considering we have seen countless human-like races around the galaxies like Rhomann Dey, but much of the visual style like the futurish dump trucks, food carts, trains, etc, really felt more human then anything we have seen from other space civilizations.

It really seems like Sylvie does not consider herself a princess in any way, so it makes me question if she was raised by Odin or not. It could be her timeline has an entirely different take on the Loki myth and how she came to take the name before discarding it.

Lastly, why are they flailing around so much and getting beat up by future cops when Loki can look at a falling building and make it REVERSE DIRECTION. They have never showed him have that kind of telepathic strength. Though, honestly, that moment made me form a theory.

Finally, THEORY TIME.

None of that stuff happened. Wait what?

The start of the episode establishes how Sylvie's enchantment powers work, and she basically creates an existence in their mind of a past memory. Later on, she attempts to use her powers on Loki in a rather intimate fashion but he scoffs that her powers won't work on him. I think they did. Sylvie knows the planet from a past visit, using it as a hideout. She never specified the place she goes in their head has to be their own memories, what if they can be her memories too? Considering how she looked at him leading into the touch, I think she is actually curious if he could be trusted. How can you get someone to open up about how they really feel? Well, constant assured destruction has a way of removing any filters one might have. Why bother when you will be dead in moments?

In the end they will be sitting around, watching the planet about to impact them, Loki will show his true self, and Sylvie will pull them out of the enchantment and decide to work with him for real. It will then be a repeat of the same day but completely different, playing into the time motif.

I like this theory a lot. There are a few questions raised here though as I don’t feel that Silvie has the memory knowledge of so much of the planet without a proper explanation. And if she does such as the train then they would likely run into a past version of silvie here since this is all part of the sacred timeline.
it also seems odd that Loki would be able to experience things while Silvie was asleep and also that moment where he gets tossed out and we focus on Silvie for a moment before she jumps out too. It focuses on a character who is not the center of the projection meaning it’s just there to throw off the audience and therefore cheating.

apart from that awesome theory I also question how a variant like Silvie can exist at all if the TVA prunes any split timeline within hours of it diverting. If Odin did adopt a human instead it would mean a few hours later the tva would remove that moment from history. She’s never get old enough to be Silvie.

Jun 23, 2021#71

ThatNickGuy

Dave said:
As long as they are spoilers about the show in question we're fine. But spoilers about "this actor is in IMDB or said this in an interview" should probably still go behind tags.

See, I'm of the opinion that threads like this are specifically for people to discuss spoilers without the need of tags at all. We've done this before with various movies and shows. If you enter a thread created to discuss a movie or show, then it should be an "Enter at your own risk" kind of thing. It's a minor thing, honestly. If this were still the general TV discussion or MCU thread, then spoiler tag away.

Jun 23, 2021#72

ScytheRexx

Shawn said:
I like this theory a lot. There are a few questions raised here though as I don’t feel that Silvie has the memory knowledge of so much of the planet without a proper explanation. And if she does such as the train then they would likely run into a past version of silvie here since this is all part of the sacred timeline.
it also seems odd that Loki would be able to experience things while Silvie was asleep and also that moment where he gets tossed out and we focus on Silvie for a moment before she jumps out too. It focuses on a character who is not the center of the projection meaning it’s just there to throw off the audience and therefore cheating.

Two things, 1) You don't have memories of yourself from an alternate viewpoint, so they wouldn't see an alternate version of Sylvie at the train station, and 2) She has the ability to manipulate the memories for her needs, like how she inserted herself into a memory with the commander at the start, and even did things like changing the time of day half way through.

When it comes to stuff like her sleeping, that would be part of the ruse. As for how we saw her in the train reacting without Loki nearby, well, that is definitely a crack in the theory, but its not exactly a breaker, because movies do that all the time too (show events without the protag even though it ends up being a dream the protag was having).

apart from that awesome theory I also question how a variant like Silvie can exist at all if the TVA prunes any split timeline within hours of it diverting. If Odin did adopt a human instead it would mean a few hours later the tva would remove that moment from history. She’s never get old enough to be Silvie.

This one is easy, 1) She comes from a pre-time keepers timeline, one that they pruned while crafting the Sacred Timeline, and 2) She was recruited out of said deleted timeline to be a member of the original TVA and had her memory wiped. Think about it, how did she get to understand the mechanics of their tech so well that she could hotwire a timeline carpet bomb? This is someone with intimate knowledge about the TVA and the technology they use. My theory is that a long time ago while on a mission as some type of Analyst, her magic powers returned to her, and gave her back her original memory and the knowledge of the destruction of her timeline. She is out for revenge now realizing that everyone she loved was erased.

Jun 23, 2021#73

@Li3n

ScytheRexx said:
Never claimed they were from a regular timeline. The reveal that they are all Variants discounts their own notions that the Time Keepers created them.

Ah, see, i always assumed that the Time Keepers creating them was obvious BS.

Shawn said:
I like this theory a lot. There are a few questions raised here though as I don’t feel that Silvie has the memory knowledge of so much of the planet without a proper explanation. And if she does such as the train then they would likely run into a past version of silvie here since this is all part of the sacred timeline.

I mean being in a place from a memory and actually experiencing the memory isn't the same thing, there's no reason why there would be a Sylvie memory copy.

Shawn said:
It focuses on a character who is not the center of the projection meaning it’s just there to throw off the audience and therefore cheating.

Near the end she says something about stronger minds making it like they're both there, so it's likely that she's not "not the center of the projection".

Shawn said:
apart from that awesome theory I also question how a variant like Silvie can exist at all if the TVA prunes any split timeline within hours of it diverting. If Odin did adopt a human instead it would mean a few hours later the tva would remove that moment from history. She’s never get old enough to be Silvie.

She might be from before the timeline war destroyed everything.

Hell, maybe the whole TVA staff is.

Jun 23, 2021#74

Ravenpoe

As soon as Sylvie touched Loki and he said his mind is too strong, I immediately thought everything after this is in his mind, because how better to sell it to him than through his own ego?

Jun 24, 2021#75

Shawn

I'm not saying there would be a sylvie copy in the memory. But there would be in reality if they do this whole thing over again in the next episode.

Jun 24, 2021#76

GasBandit

Jun 24, 2021#77

MindDetective

Are people actually mad about that?

Jun 24, 2021#78

ThatNickGuy

MindDetective said:
Are people actually mad about that?

It's the internet and a character was revealed as gay. Of course people are mad. The usual suspects, of course.

Jun 24, 2021#79

MindDetective

ThatNickGuy said:
It's the internet and a character was revealed as gay. Of course people are mad. The usual suspects, of course.

So....nobody noteworthy.

Jun 24, 2021#80

Celt Z

A couple of days ago we watched Ragnarok with my son, and I told him that the large wolf was named Fenrir, and "in Norse mythology, Loki is his father!". My son was completely nonplussed by this tibit.

So if he won't bat an eye at that revelation, Loki being bisexual is a non-issue at this point.

Jun 25, 2021#81

HCGLNS

GasBandit said:
View attachment 38168

And that is the most normal relationship he had, re offspring. And that this is the version Christian monks wrote down to best convince the Norse how similar their beliefs were to Christianity.

Jun 30, 2021#82

Shawn

Episode 4 was pretty crazy.
I’ve got no theories. Any theory I had went straight out the window. Everything at this point is fair game.

Jun 30, 2021#83

evilmike

End credit scene this week.

Jun 30, 2021#84

Dave

I fully expected the ending. I just don't know what they are going to do with it.

I actually expect the REAL timekeepers to be Loki somehow.

Jun 30, 2021#85

Dave

*watches end credit scene*

Okay, I didn't expect THAT.

Jun 30, 2021#86

Celt Z

Jun 30, 2021#87

ScytheRexx

So my old theories were wrong. It was nice to get a real backstory on Sylvie but also it was confirmed the last episode was not some sort of memory space. Still does not explain how Loki can lift a building with his mind though.

When they "pruned" Mobius and later Loki and I was like, :Leyla:

Seriously, the minute I actually saw the Time Keepers and not just the creepy silhouette in the beginning, I was like "This is the worst CGI they ever did. What the hell." and then they just sat there and didn't react during the entire fight, not even fear or worry or anger, and I was like "Something does not feel right about this, this is just sloppy."

Then the head came off and I was like, "Oh you sons of bitches, you got me."

The post-credits scene though? Talk about nuts. When they showed that sort of post apocalyptic New York in the trailers, I thought it was another timeline, but now I think what the TVA does is actually sends Variants to what amounts to a dimensional trash bin. The reason the buildings and stuff in the trailer are so broken up and lopsided is because if they also get "pruned" from the time charges it throws them in there too. The good news, this mean Mobius is alive too!

Now for next week, I have a feeling Loki will have to save Mobius from other Lokis that hate him for being part of the TVA, lead by the "President Loki" which is basically a Loki that won the Battle of New York and was pruned for it. It's likely due to the massive change Loki winning would do to New York itself, meant a huge chunk of the city itself was also pruned and fell into this trash dimension. As for who the real Time Keeper is, 75% I feel it's going to be yet another Loki Variant and the other 25% is leaning on Kang making his debut. I still think we are going to find out the TVA itself is a new creation and has not actually existed since the start of time.

Addon : Watching the midseason trailer again, the place is totally a trash dimension. I didn't catch it before but one of the shots is a boat appearing out of thin air and dropping onto the ground, but if you look closely it does the "pruning effect" but in reverse.

Jun 30, 2021#88

Shawn

I also was thinking that the TVA may be in fact run by a variant Loki. It’s nearly all of the Loki variants’ dreams to be in charge. Makes sense that one of them already is. Why he wants other Lokies to fail is the question. Keep the competition down?

Jun 30, 2021#89

ScytheRexx

Shawn said:
I also was thinking that the TVA may be in fact run by a variant Loki. It’s nearly all of the Loki variants’ dreams to be in charge. Makes sense that one of them already is. Why he wants other Lokies to fail is the question. Keep the competition down?

This is what actually bothers me. Like, why would Loki, once he gains the power of the TVA, continue to form a timeline where he dies? That is the only question that makes me unsure on whether it's Loki or not. You would think Loki would craft a timeline where he always wins.

My brain twister of a theory is that the Loki that ends up being the head of the TVA is going to be the Loki we follow in the show, but from the future, creating a sort of paradox loop. He has to keep the sacred timeline going because only through that can he create the point where he gets captured by the TVA, which puts events into motion that lead to him ultimately overthrowing himself and restarting the loop.
Even that has a lot of holes though, like why would Loki let himself be sub planted, even by another Loki? Wouldn't that mean he would have to die and know when he does? So yes, not perfect.

Either way, I imagine if it does end up being another Loki we are going to hear that "glorious purpose" line again.

Jun 30, 2021#90

Vrii

ScytheRexx said:
Still does not explain how Loki can lift a building with his mind though.

Loki has telekinetic powers. We saw him pull something off of a shelf to him a couple of episodes ago, and in Thor: Dark World he trashed his cell with his mind as well. Lifting a building is bigger than he's shown - and I wouldn't be surprised if the writers have forgotten he can do it sometimes - but it's not a new trick.

Jun 30, 2021#91

Ravenpoe

So I don't think being female is what triggered Sylvie's nexus event. Loki is gender fluid and a shapeshifter, the timeline doesn't care what gender they are.

Sylvie was playing save Asgard. And she was concerned for the wellbeing of the man in the TVA. She was turning into a good person, that is what made her a deviant.

Jun 30, 2021#92

Piotyr

Just as I always expected, Miss Minutes is the mastermind behind everything.

Jun 30, 2021#93

Celt Z

Vrii said:
Loki has telekinetic powers. We saw him pull something off of a shelf to him a couple of episodes ago, and in Thor: Dark World he trashed his cell with his mind as well. Lifting a building is bigger than he's shown - and I wouldn't be surprised if the writers have forgotten he can do it sometimes - but it's not a new trick.

This. And I think it was Dark World, they confirmed Frigga taught Loki magic, but they never got into the specifics. So I guess Loki has Plot Magic; similar to Plot Armor, but flashier!

Jun 30, 2021#94

evilmike

Does anyone else wonder if there is any significance to Sylvie's timeline ending on a Tuesday?

Jun 30, 2021#95

PatrThom

evilmike said:
Does anyone else wonder if there is any significance to Sylvie's timeline ending on a Tuesday?

Tiw(also Tiu/Tyr) was the god who sacrificed his hand/arm to Fenrir to allow Fenrir to be leashed, and Fenrir is one of Loki's children.
I haven't seen the series of course, so I don't know if any of that is relevant.

--Patrick

Jun 30, 2021#96

ThatNickGuy

evilmike said:
Does anyone else wonder if there is any significance to Sylvie's timeline ending on a Tuesday?

SOLOMON GRUNDY CONFIRMED!

...wait.

Jun 30, 2021#97

Celt Z

evilmike said:
Does anyone else wonder if there is any significance to Sylvie's timeline ending on a Tuesday?

Taco Tuesday?

Jun 30, 2021#98

evilmike

Ravonna flat out M. Bison'ed Silvie

Jul 1, 2021#99

ScytheRexx

Vrii said:
Loki has telekinetic powers. We saw him pull something off of a shelf to him a couple of episodes ago, and in Thor: Dark World he trashed his cell with his mind as well. Lifting a building is bigger than he's shown - and I wouldn't be surprised if the writers have forgotten he can do it sometimes - but it's not a new trick.

I know he has "telekinetic" powers (more likely a form of magic just without the effects), just never to the scale of lifting an entire building back up to it's foundation.

If he can pick up a building with his mind / magic, then there is nothing stopping him from just flinging heroes all over the place like a rag doll, yet he gets his ass beat by a trucker in a department store in the episode before that one. It just felt a little much for his character.

So I don't think being female is what triggered Sylvie's nexus event. Loki is gender fluid and a shapeshifter, the timeline doesn't care what gender they are.

Sylvie was playing save Asgard. And she was concerned for the wellbeing of the man in the TVA. She was turning into a good person, that is what made her a deviant.

Why can't it be both? One thing of note is that, on Sylvie's paperwork during the flashback, she ISN'T listed as genderfluid like Loki was, but instead female. Also, while Loki revealed his own bisexuality and hinted to Sylvie being the same, she never actually confirmed she felt that way. It might not just be that she seems to be good, but because she in the end became a completely different person down to even her personal and social preferences.

Jul 1, 2021#100

Vrii

ScytheRexx said:
It just felt a little much for his character.

Loki has the least consistent power level in the MCU, ranging from being a threat to the Avengers to being shown up by random mooks when it's convenient to the plot; the first episode even called it out when Mobius described him as existing to push other people to reach their potential. I don't think there's a lot of value to be had in trying to pin down any of his abilities or what they can/can't accomplish.

That said, I don't think "his life is in danger so he pushes past his previous limits" or "starting to care about someone else makes him stronger" are terrible reaches as far as explanations for suddenly seeming stronger go.

Jul 1, 2021#101

Shawn

There is never any spotlight cast on Loki's ability to stop the building from collapsing on top of them (no one says "how did you do that?" or has a look of pure puzzlement on their face when it happens). Narratively this just means that his power to do so should be considered perfectly normal for him. Even Loki didn't question it when it happened, so the theory that he gained an extra boost from being in danger or protecting someone he cares about is likely to be debunked or completely glossed over.

Jul 1, 2021#102

@Li3n

ScytheRexx said:
The post-credits scene though? Talk about nuts. When they showed that sort of post apocalyptic New York in the trailers, I thought it was another timeline, but now I think what the TVA does is actually sends Variants to what amounts to a dimensional trash bin. The reason the buildings and stuff in the trailer are so broken up and lopsided is because if they also get "pruned" from the time charges it throws them in there too. The good news, this mean Mobius is alive too!

Well, i know one of them was black, but that's not a problem for Loki (oh, and he's also a crocodile, missed that one in the viewing), so as far as we know maybe only Loki's get transported there instead of being deleted. And maybe that's because no Loki would ever give his subordinates a weapon capable of killing him.

ScytheRexx said:
I still think we are going to find out the TVA itself is a new creation and has not actually existed since the start of time.

I mean their official origin story is that they started after all the timelines went to war with each other and destroyed everything.

So it's more like they existed since the end of time.

Jul 1, 2021#103

Celt Z

Slight Mobius spoiler

Imdb lists Owen Wilson as being in 5 episodes, so he has to show up again in some capacity.

Jul 1, 2021#104

Shawn

Celt Z said:
Slight Mobius spoiler

Imdb lists Owen Wilson as being in 5 episodes, so he has to show up again in some capacity.

And he wasn’t even in episode 3.

Jul 1, 2021#105

evilmike

Jul 1, 2021#106

ScytheRexx

There are other scenes in the trailers of Mobius driving a car so unless that was fake filler we will likely see that next episode.

Jul 2, 2021#107

figmentPez

Jul 5, 2021#108

chris

I haven't watched Loki yet. But I have a theory about the TVA and what they are really doing that is so stupid and bonkers that I don't really believe Disney will do it. It will be to Meta and fourth wall breaking, people will feel offended.

Jul 7, 2021#109

Shawn

The restaurant at the end of the universe.

Jul 7, 2021#110

Cog

Thanos helicopter.

Jul 7, 2021#111

evilmike

Throg.

Jul 7, 2021#112

ScytheRexx

One of my favorite parts of the episode was we technically got to see post-avengers MCU Loki again. Old Man Loki was a Variant that tricked Thanos instead of dying during the opening events of Infinity War and that was where he diverged.

Jul 7, 2021#113

PatrThom

Cog said:
Thanos helicopter.

The image this brings to my mind is probably not the same as the one it brings to yours, and I don't like it.
especially if you include the phrase "infinity stones" ( <-- NSFW)

--Patrick

Jul 7, 2021#114

Dave

God damn this was a great episode.

Jul 7, 2021#115

evilmike

Jul 7, 2021#116

figmentPez

This LOST reboot sure didn't waste any time revealing what was under the hatch, did it?

Jul 7, 2021#117

Gryfter

This series keeps getting better.

Jul 7, 2021#118

ScytheRexx

Huh, guys, I just realized that Old Man Loki (Classic Loki) might be hinting that MCU Loki is still alive.

As I mentioned earlier, he used his magic to make an illusion so real that Thanos was able to "kill" it, allowing him to escape. However, I didn't realize something VERY important.

The TVA captures variants as soon as a "Nexus Event" occurs. However, the TVA didn't come for him after he survived Thanos, instead leaving him alone until he was getting ready to leave the planet he was hiding on. There are only two possible options for this...

A) Classic Loki, by not being seen by anyone and living on an uninhabitated planet, didn't create any Nexus Energy, similar to how such energy isn't generated during apocolypses.
B) Loki did use an illusion to escape death yet again and him attempting to leave the planet was his Nexus Event for the TVA.

It's very likely it's A, but you can't stop but wonder how viable B could be now that Classic Loki hints to it.

Jul 7, 2021#119

Celt Z

Uh oh... the TVA got to @ScytheRexx and stuck him in a time loop!

Jul 7, 2021#120

MindDetective

That doesn't explain the EOF message when Loki variant was reviewing the footage of his life that he had not experienced yet.

Jul 7, 2021#121

GasBandit

Maybe when this Loki and Sylvie take down the TVA, it will free up the multiverse timelines so that the Canon timeline can now be the one where Loki fakes his death at the hands of Thanos.

Or, conversely, when it's "all over," he decides to "return" to the canon timeline post-Endgame to re-reconcile with Thor and continue from there.

Jul 7, 2021#122

bhamv3

I remember the Russos saying that anyone who died in Infinity War and Endgame was going to stay dead.

So far we've seen the snapped get unsnapped, Gamora and Loki return due to time travel shenanigans, Natasha returning (sort of) in her solo movie, and Vision get remade.

I'll bet Heimdall's all like, "Guys..."

Jul 7, 2021#123

Shakey

I would prefer Loki is replaced with Sylvie in the current timeline.

Jul 7, 2021#124

Shakey

My current preferred theory is that Kang killed the TVA council at some point, and had been manipulating it to ensure his preferred timeline is the one that survives. Maybe he’s the one the Loki’s will end up freeing, and allow Ravonna and him to meet. If they haven’t already.

Not sure they’d introduce a big bad like that in a show though.

Jul 7, 2021#125

Shawn

Still doesn't explain why Captain America and Tony Stark had to travel back to get the Tesseract from Shield if Loki escaping with it from New York would have been reset anyway.

Jul 7, 2021#126

Shakey

It needed to be reset to get that version of Loki brought in to the TVA.
No idea, but I don’t think they’ll ever be a completely clean explanation.

Jul 7, 2021#127

Celt Z

bhamv3 said:
I remember the Russos saying that anyone who died in Infinity War and Endgame was going to stay dead.

So far we've seen the snapped get unsnapped, Gamora and Loki return due to time travel shenanigans, Natasha returning (sort of) in her solo movie, and Vision get remade.

I'll bet Heimdall's all like, "Guys..."

Joss Whedon said Coulson was dead, and 7 seasons of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D was like, "Nuh-uh!". Like the comics they're based on death is only permanent until the next writer gets their hands on them.

I remember there was a time when people said "the only people that stay dead are Uncle Ben and Bucky!", and by the 2000's that wasn't true anymore, either.

Jul 7, 2021#128

figmentPez

Celt Z said:
I remember there was a time when people said "the only people that stay dead are Uncle Ben and Bucky!", and by the 2000's that wasn't true anymore, either.

They've even brought back Lian Harper.

Jul 8, 2021#129

Shawn

Spider-Man: No Way Home

Toby Peter Parker: "My Uncle Ben is dead because I didn't act when I could have."

Andrew Peter Parker: "Same."

Tom Peter Parker: "Huh? Mine is alive. He and May just got a divorce. I see him every other weekend.

Toby/Andrew: "WHAT THE F....!"

Jul 8, 2021#130

bhamv3

Shawn said:
Spider-Man: No Way Home

Toby Peter Parker: "My Uncle Ben is dead because I didn't act when I could have."

Andrew Peter Parker: "Same."

Tom Peter Parker: "Huh? Mine is alive. He and May just got a divorce. I see him every other weekend.

Toby/Andrew: "WHAT THE F....!"

Cap: LANGUAGE!

Jul 8, 2021#131

DarkAudit

bhamv3 said:
Cap: LANGUAGE!

Steve may be old fashioned, but he's from Brooklyn.

Jul 8, 2021#132

Shawn

With Spider-Man: No Way Home due out by the end of the year I was rather surprised we haven't seen a trailer.
But now I'm wondering if they are waiting for the end of the Loki season.
I think it's a safe prediction that the series finale will spark the end (or downfall) of the TVA and then multitudes of dimensions blossoming out from the timeline as a result.
Being able to see that in Loki would be very important to have happen before they release a trailer about a dimensional hopping Spider-Man.

Jul 8, 2021#133

Ravenpoe

DarkAudit said:
Steve may be old fashioned, but he's from Brooklyn.

Jul 8, 2021#134

ScytheRexx

Fixed. Sorry guys, it was not posting earlier so I gave up and just left to do other things, then I guess all those times I clicked the post button and nothing happened decided to catch up while I was gone.

MindDetective said:
That doesn't explain the EOF message when Loki variant was reviewing the footage of his life that he had not experienced yet.

Just one episode ago the Time Keepers were found out to be Chuck-E-Cheese-style animatronics. Who is to say the TVA's master didn't tamper with the files? If the theory ends up being true that the person in charge is another Variant of Loki, possibly one that also comes from a "post-infinity war" existence, then he might have need to make his fake death look like his real death.

I remember the Russos saying that anyone who died in Infinity War and Endgame was going to stay dead.

Joss Whedon said Coulson was dead, and 7 seasons of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D was like, "Nuh-uh!". Like the comics they're based on death is only permanent until the next writer gets their hands on them.

To be absolutely fair to both these points, the only person that matters is Kevin Fiege. Kevin considers Coulson perma-dead because he never wanted AoS and does not consider it canon, and should he want to bring someone back, it's going to happen, regardless of what the Russos said during the time they made Infinity War and Endgame.

Jul 8, 2021#135

ScytheRexx

Theory time!

We still have not had the multiple Mobius moments that they hinted at earlier. Now, in the end, it could just be a Easter Egg towards the comics, but my theory is that now Mobius is back at the TVA he won't be able to take it down alone. He will run into "himself" while trying to sneak around the TVA, and realizing there are possibly multiple Variants of himself working there, will find them all to build an army big enough to take down the TVA.

The big bad won't be Kang. Kang is a futurist and isn't likely to be the type to brood in some Gothic castle at the end of the Universe. We know we saw Kang's city as an Easter Egg in Ant Man and the Wasp, shrunk down into the quantum dimension. My theory is that Kang shrunk the city into the quantum dimension specifically to avoid the TVA as he would be too small to create any Nexus Events and thus shielded from being pruned. When the TVA is destroyed at the end of Loki, he will have no reason to hide, and the stinger leading off the end of the episode will be him recruiting a now homeless and angry Ravanna Renslayer in order to gain the TVAs secrets, leading into whatever happens during Ant Man and the Wasp : Quantumania.

Though I am certain it won't be Kang, I am still not sold on the big bad being another MCU (Tom Hiddleston) Loki Variant. The reason that theory is so persuasive is because there are still unused scenes in the trailer of Loki dressed in kingly attire. However, other shots of him in the same room show people that look a lot like Asgardians, and my theory is that whoever the big bad really is, they are going to try to convince Loki to join them by taking them back to moments in time where they felt the most powerful. Loki as King of Asgard, Loki during the Battle of New York (another stinger from the trailer we have yet to see), etc. So who is the person? Sylvie. Yes, I know, what!? It's a lot to explain, so I won't go into all the ideas on the theory, but the basics is Sylvie in a past time period succeeded in destroying the Time Keepers but in the end decided to rule the TVA instead. When past Sylvie and Loki confront her, she will use her enchantment powers, enhanced over millennia of usage, to attempt to coax the more devious and dangerous side of Loki so that he can join her and rule, but ultimately Loki will care more for the past Sylvie, who having grow a connection with Loki, no longer wants that power. It would be a nice play off the convo the two had last episode, where Sylvie made Loki promise not to betray her, and now he must, either betraying her past self to rule with her future self, or her future self to save her past self.

Anyways, those are the biggest theories I have for now. Of course, can be WAY off in the end, I have been before, but this is just where I see these threads going right now.

Jul 8, 2021#136

Piotyr

My guess, since Mobius left the void before the end, is that Mobius is going to be being in the castle, for one reason or another.

Jul 8, 2021#137

chris

Disney should really make some Croki plushies.

Jul 8, 2021#138

Shawn

ScytheRexx said:
Theory time!

We still have not had the multiple Mobius moments that they hinted at earlier. Now, in the end, it could just be a Easter Egg towards the comics, but my theory is that now Mobius is back at the TVA he won't be able to take it down alone. He will run into "himself" while trying to sneak around the TVA, and realizing there are possibly multiple Variants of himself working there, will find them all to build an army big enough to take down the TVA.

The big bad won't be Kang. Kang is a futurist and isn't likely to be the type to brood in some Gothic castle at the end of the Universe. We know we saw Kang's city as an Easter Egg in Ant Man and the Wasp, shrunk down into the quantum dimension. My theory is that Kang shrunk the city into the quantum dimension specifically to avoid the TVA as he would be too small to create any Nexus Events and thus shielded from being pruned. When the TVA is destroyed at the end of Loki, he will have no reason to hide, and the stinger leading off the end of the episode will be him recruiting a now homeless and angry Ravanna Renslayer in order to gain the TVAs secrets, leading into whatever happens during Ant Man and the Wasp : Quantumania.

Though I am certain it won't be Kang, I am still not sold on the big bad being another MCU (Tom Hiddleston) Loki Variant. The reason that theory is so persuasive is because there are still unused scenes in the trailer of Loki dressed in kingly attire. However, other shots of him in the same room show people that look a lot like Asgardians, and my theory is that whoever the big bad really is, they are going to try to convince Loki to join them by taking them back to moments in time where they felt the most powerful. Loki as King of Asgard, Loki during the Battle of New York (another stinger from the trailer we have yet to see), etc. So who is the person? Sylvie. Yes, I know, what!? It's a lot to explain, so I won't go into all the ideas on the theory, but the basics is Sylvie in a past time period succeeded in destroying the Time Keepers but in the end decided to rule the TVA instead. When past Sylvie and Loki confront her, she will use her enchantment powers, enhanced over millennia of usage, to attempt to coax the more devious and dangerous side of Loki so that he can join her and rule, but ultimately Loki will care more for the past Sylvie, who having grow a connection with Loki, no longer wants that power. It would be a nice play off the convo the two had last episode, where Sylvie made Loki promise not to betray her, and now he must, either betraying her past self to rule with her future self, or her future self to save her past self.

Anyways, those are the biggest theories I have for now. Of course, can be WAY off in the end, I have been before, but this is just where I see these threads going right now.

I feel like the big-bad being another Loki Variant at this point will just feel like a letdown.

Post automatically merged: Jul 8, 2021

chris said:
Disney should really make some Croki plushies.

Specially if they have a pair of Frog Thor's legs sticking out from between the teeth.

Jul 8, 2021#139

ScytheRexx

Shawn said:
I feel like the big-bad being another Loki Variant at this point will just feel like a letdown.
Post automatically merged: Jul 8, 2021

The thing about mysteries, you have to establish the person ahead of time. They don't work otherwise. The audience feels cheated when they go through an entire movie or series trying to figure out who the secret person is, only to find out it was Joe from three houses down who was never mentioned or even seen. As soon as it turned out the Time Keepers were fake, they would have to establish the real leader very soon after if they planned for him to be a new insert (aka Kang, which is another reason I don't think it's him, general audiences are not going to know who he is.) The fact we still don't know who they are going through the penultimate episode means they are banking the show on that mystery reveal for the finale, so they can't do an ass pull.

Loki, or a variant, fits the overall theme the best, but I wouldn't put it aside that the actual leader ends up being Mobius (bad idea, same issue with Sharon Carter in the last series), Ravanna (not likely, established she is in the dark too), or even Casey (Ya, remember that guy? The one that didn't know what a fish was? Seems kind of interesting that he is the one the TVA seems to give all these powerful time artifacts to). All of them can make viable "Oh shit!" twists for the mystery with their own upsides and downsides, but it being another Loki is the safest option.

Jul 8, 2021#140

Dave

You know what would be cool and really unexpected? A variant Thor being the leader. In his universe, Loki was the God of War or something like that and Thor was overlooked and turned all bad. Everyone knows the character and it would be an interesting divergence.

Jul 8, 2021#141

Celt Z

Possible spoiler that I accidentally stumbled on:

Imdb lists Richard E. Grant/Classic Loki as appearing in 3 episodes, so he may be part of the finale/mystery after all? Or maybe just a flashback. Who knows.

Jul 8, 2021#142

ScytheRexx

Celt Z said:
Possible spoiler that I accidentally stumbled on:

Imdb lists Richard E. Grant/Classic Loki as appearing in 3 episodes, so he may be part of the finale/mystery after all? Or maybe just a flashback. Who knows.

Do they count the recap as part of the episode? He is for sure going to have a blurb in that.

Jul 8, 2021#143

Celt Z

ScytheRexx said:
Do they count the recap as part of the episode? He is for sure going to have a blurb in that.

Usually it only counts if it's a new scene? As far as I know? They don't credit Hemsworth, Russo, Hopkins, etc. when they used their scenes in Ep. 1.

Jul 8, 2021#144

Dave

Also, it might be the kid Loki.

Jul 8, 2021#145

ThatNickGuy

I'm calling it now: it's Mephisto. Obviously.

Jul 8, 2021#146

Far

I'm just enjoying the ride this time and not trying to speculate myself into over expectations like I kind of did with WandaVision

Jul 8, 2021#147

figmentPez

Possible big bads:
- Variant Doctor Strange
- Variant The Ancient One
- Variant Jack Kirby
- Actual Kevin Feige
- The Time Twisters

Jul 8, 2021#148

ScytheRexx

Oh god it's Stan Lee back from the dead! Run!

Jul 8, 2021#149

Celt Z

-Variant Thanos - surprise, fuckers!
-Variant Red Skull - surprise, der saftsack!
-Variant Hela - surprise, little brother!
-Variant Ronan - surprise, Xandar-fuckers!
-Ultron- Not that big of a surprise. Could explain a few things. He's secretly been Miss Minutes.
-Variant Justin Hammer - ...oh no.

Jul 8, 2021#150

bhamv3

It's gonna be Deadpool.

Jul 8, 2021#151

Dave

bhamv3 said:
It's gonna be Deadpool.

I would be good with that.

Jul 8, 2021#152

GasBandit

Variant Lady Sif? I dunno, Jaime Alexander has already appeared in an episode...

Jul 8, 2021#153

Shawn

The Loki/Simpsons crossover was very underwhelming.

Jul 8, 2021#154

ScytheRexx

Shawn said:
The Loki/Simpsons crossover was very underwhelming.

"Come watch our Loki Simpsons special!"

*2 minutes of quick site gags then 3 more minutes of gag credits followed then by real credits.*

Honestly kind of embarrassed they thought people would be excited to watch it. It was the type of special you throw on as a gag at 3am, not a advertised special crossover.

Jul 8, 2021#155

Celt Z

Mr. Z just sent this my way.

Jul 8, 2021#156

ScytheRexx

If anyone ten years ago told me that Owen Wilson would be one of my favorite casting choices in a Marvel movie / show, I would say they were nuts, yet here we are.

Jul 8, 2021#157

Shawn

ScytheRexx said:
If anyone ten years ago told me that Own Wilson would be one of my favorite casting choices in a Marvel movie / show, I would say they were nuts, yet here we are.

It's kinda like putting Martin Freeman in the MCU.
Just needs the right role.

Jul 8, 2021#158

bhamv3

Casting is one of the things the MCU consistently knocks out of the park.

Jul 9, 2021#159

AshburnerX

Jul 9, 2021#160

General Specific

My totally not going to be it prediction for who is behind the TVA:

Wanda

Jul 9, 2021#161

ScytheRexx

What if it's Frigga? Wouldn't that be a twist.

Jul 9, 2021#162

chris

Jul 9, 2021#163

evilmike

Jul 9, 2021#164

figmentPez

ScytheRexx said:
What if it's Frigga? Wouldn't that be a twist.

My immediate thought on reading this was, "What about Heimdall, though? All seeing, controls travel to other realms."

But then I wondered, the current timeline has both of them dying. Why would Frigga, Heimdall, or even a variant, want to preserve a timeline where they die and Asgard is destroyed?

Then I thought: Hey, there are three Time Keepers. Maybe there are three behind this as well, Frigga, Heimdall, and Sif. And given the sometimes portrayal of Ragnarok as being circular, both the beginning and the end of time, perhaps what lies beyond Alioth is Asgard, or at least one group's idealized version of Asgard, and they've set up the TVA to ensure that it is the one and true Asgard.

Jul 10, 2021#165

figmentPez

Jul 10, 2021#166

GasBandit

Jul 10, 2021#167

PatrThom

Still waiting to see Loki dressed up as Capt Hook.

--Patrick

Jul 10, 2021#168

Celt Z

GasBandit said:

Izodki. I'd wear it.

Jul 10, 2021#169

ScytheRexx

figmentPez said:
View attachment 38307

The only fail is the glass should have been a RoxxiWine wine box!

Jul 11, 2021#170

GasBandit

Jul 11, 2021#171

figmentPez

Jul 11, 2021#172

Ravenpoe

GasBandit said:

This clearly isn't Canon, because we all know alligator Loki was adopted by Toadin and Frogga, and their son Throg.

Jul 12, 2021#173

@Li3n

ScytheRexx said:
So who is the person? Sylvie. Yes, I know, what!? It's a lot to explain, so I won't go into all the ideas on the theory, but the basics is Sylvie in a past time period succeeded in destroying the Time Keepers but in the end decided to rule the TVA instead.

Nah, that makes sense. And it also explains why them bonding during the apocalypse caused a nexus event.

Jul 12, 2021#174

@Li3n

Damn, the writers really did their homework:

Citadel at the End of Time

5 appearance(s) of Citadel at the End of Time 5 image(s) of Citadel at the End of Time

mightythor.fandom.com

Jul 12, 2021#175

GasBandit

Jul 12, 2021#176

GasBandit

Jul 13, 2021#177

PatrThom

This meme has legs.
...tiny scaly ones but w/e

--Patrick

Jul 13, 2021#178

@Li3n

GasBandit said:

Finally, a new variant of Moebius....

Jul 13, 2021#179

GasBandit

Jul 14, 2021#180

Shawn

Not bad for a Kang the Conquerer reveal: technically not revealing him at all.
I’m actually impressed with this season finale and very excited for the rest of phase 4.

Jul 14, 2021#181

Frank

So I binged Loki this afternoon to catch up without having read much about anything. I've literally never heard of the TVA so looking up that stuff afterwards was fun.

Fun series. Some thoughts I had today,

- I dig buddy cop duo. They have wonderful chemistry.

- I guess we're already done with that.

- I wonder if she's the MCU Enchantress with her blonde hair and vaguely green outfit. "Enchant, enchant, I can enchant, I enchant, enchant, enchant, enchant, why can't I enchant, enchant." I guess so.

- Old Loki is very silly and amazing. They're ending this episode with a pretty incredibl(y)e silly pyrotechnics display.

I figured it would be Kang, since I'd read he's a villain elsewhere, but that's also neato that it's not Kang and opens up the MCU for whatever the fuck bullshit they want now. Here come da mutants.

Jul 14, 2021#182

figmentPez

Jul 14, 2021#183

ThatNickGuy

Good episode, though a lot of it felt like that part of Matrix Reloaded with the Architect droning on and on. At least this guy was more interesting.

Thing is, I don't think that was Kang. I think it was Immortus. Long story short, Immortus is a "variant" of Kang. Kind of. Kang's comic history is...complicated. Immortus is basically the oldest version of Kang. They never name him, but he talked about how he's very old. And Immortus had a citadel at the end of time, too. Anyway, it doesn't really matter since they're NOW clearly setting up Kang. And now that we've been introduced to the idea of variants, I wouldn't be surprised if we see multiple versions of him. I can't help wondering if we'll see Rama-Tut (who was originally just an Egyptian themed villain from the future but retconned to be one of the youngest versions of Kang).

Also loved that hook at the end with Mobius having no sweet clue who Loki is. So time has already gone wibbly wobbly. As with the rest of Loki, this kind of feels like Marvel's own Doctor Who and I'm all for it.

Jul 14, 2021#184

tegid

In those few moments in the TVA at the end of the episode, the camera focused on a statue which I guess used to be of a Time Keeper but now it was... of not-Kang wearing Kang's costume.

Jul 14, 2021#185

BErt

Phase IV Preview:

Jul 14, 2021#186

ScytheRexx

So I was wrong, it was Kang. I do like the fact that they made it a Variant of Kang though, one that was not evil (per say) but was actually attempting to prevent the worst versions of himself from existing.

A few disappointments I do wish to list.

Once again Marvel tricks us with fake trailer scenes. The scene of Loki in a throne room never appears in the episode even though it's been in multiple trailers, including the midseason trailer. It was likely put in to make us think the person at the end of time was a Loki and not Kang.

Really was hoping for a scene with multiple Mobius', the pen ended up referencing Renslayers original existence as a school teacher.

The ending, while fun, definitely leaves on a sour note overall for me. It's less a conclusion and more a cliffhanger for the next big arc of the MCU. We also don't know what will happen to Loki, since he is in a TVA that does not remember him, and I don't like it when a series ends on such an open cliffhanger. Still loved the series as a whole though, even with the disappointments. It always kept me engaged at least.

Speaking of that ending scene, I don't think the TVA itself reset. Remember how they showed Mobius and Hunter B15 in the control room lamenting how there was no turning back, and B15 implied they didn't want to turn back? That happened AFTER Loki was thrust through the time portal and Kang was killed, so that event had to still happen, while the ones in the archive seemed more like original Mobius and B15. My best theory is that, remember how the TVA said once the red line passed a specific point it couldn't be reset? I think the reason was because once things go past that line, that branch would in turn create IT'S OWN TVA. Since the branches were occurring before Kang even died, one likely passed the red line point before Sylvie sent Loki away, and since she used Kang's bracelet, which is obviously way more powerful then the average time pad, she actually sent him to another timelines version of the TVA, one that is now ruled by one of the conqueror Kangs. If they do a second season, I expect the first episode will be Loki being interrogated by this TVA before the "originals" come to save him. One other little observation, but in this TVA, Mobius didn't even recognize Loki at all, which means in the "timeline" they watch over, Loki likely does not even exist.

Jul 14, 2021#187

Dave

I loved the ending. I found it very “Empire Strikes Back”.

I really liked this show. Like a lot.

Jul 14, 2021#188

Vrii

ScytheRexx said:
If they do a second season

There was a mid-credits stinger saying "Loki will return in Season 2."

Jul 14, 2021#189

ScytheRexx

Vrii said:
There was a mid-credits stinger saying "Loki will return in Season 2."

Yes I saw on Twitter. Glad to see. We really need it to keep going.

Jul 14, 2021#190

@Li3n

ScytheRexx said:
So I was wrong, it was Kang. I do like the fact that they made it a Variant of Kang though, one that was not evil (per say) but was actually attempting to prevent the worst versions of himself from existing.

As Nick said, that wasn't Kang, that was clearly Immortus. It's all about that cape.

Wonder if well get his Iron Lad for Young Avengers. I hope so.

ScytheRexx said:
since she used Kang's bracelet, which is obviously way more powerful then the average time pad, she actually sent him to another timelines version of the TVA, one that is now ruled by one of the conqueror Kangs.

I wouldn't be so sure that wasn't intentionally set to send him to a variant TVA.

tegid said:
of not-Kang wearing Kang's costume.

No, that's Kang, the guy at the end of the timelines was Immortus.

Jul 14, 2021#191

ThatNickGuy

@Li3n said:
As Nick said, that wasn't Kang, that was clearly Immortus. It's all about that cape.

Wonder if well get his Iron Lad for Young Avengers. I hope so.
I wouldn't be so sure that wasn't intentionally set to send him to a variant TVA.
No, that's Kang, the guy at the end of the timelines was Immortus.

I think "clearly" is too strong a word. There's enough hints and nods that it was Immortus, but there's no way to know unless they come right out and say it. They might just simplify things and just refer to him as a Kang variant.

I hadn't even considered Iron Lad before and that's a great idea. With Wanda's kids (who will undoubtedly return at some point), Cassie Lang (Ant-Man's daughter), Eli Bradley (the grandson of the black Captain America seen in Falcon & Winter Soldier), and Kate Bishop, you have your original Young Avengers roster right there. Maybe toss in Ms Marvel, even though she wasn't part of the team in the comics but would fit right in. Heck, Young Loki could still be out there, too, who joined the team later on. Ditto for American Chavez, who is rumored to be in Dr. Strange 2.

Given all that, I wouldn't be surprised if they do some form of Young Avengers at some point. Actually, they might use the team name Champions, similar to how they used the Defenders name even though it didn't match the original team. And it wouldn't be entirely straying from the comics since there was (or still is?) a teen team called Champions that featured Ms Marvel and others.

Jul 14, 2021#192

Gryfter

I overall liked the finale. I liked Immortus/Kang and think it is an overall better setup for Kang than the original comics version introduction of "Hi, I'm Kang, I am from the future and I come to conquer."

My wife on the other hand was disappointed. She has no idea who or what a Kang is and to her it was a lot of build-up to a nothing reveal. Her opinion might change once more about the character comes out down the line, but for now she thought is was as bad the unnecessary fight scenes at the end of most Marvel outings.

I liked the show and look forward to a second season.

Jul 14, 2021#193

ThatNickGuy

Gryfter said:
I overall liked the finale. I liked Immortus/Kang and think it is an overall better setup for Kang than the original comics version introduction of "Hi, I'm Kang, I am from the future and I come to conquer."

My wife on the other hand was disappointed. She has no idea who or what a Kang is and to her it was a lot of build-up to a nothing reveal. Her opinion might change once more about the character comes out down the line, but for now she thought is was as bad the unnecessary fight scenes at the end of most Marvel outings.

I liked the show and look forward to a second season.

I can understand your wife's disappointment. It's kind of like Thanos at the end of Avengers. Only the nerds are going to know who it is unless the movie/show flat out tells you. As soon as I saw Kang/Immortus' outfit, I immediately knew who he was (or at least a version or variant of him). But to the average viewer, he was "just some guy" they haven't seen before.

Jul 14, 2021#194

@Li3n

ThatNickGuy said:
I think "clearly" is too strong a word. There's enough hints and nods that it was Immortus, but there's no way to know unless they come right out and say it. They might just simplify things and just refer to him as a Kang variant.

He Who Remains had the purple cape and green outfit with the yellow sign on the chest:

Kang statue had the neck to belt thing:

Even if they don't call him Immortus, that's still who he is.

ThatNickGuy said:
I can't help wondering if we'll see Rama-Tut (who was originally just an Egyptian themed villain from the future but retconned to be one of the youngest versions of Kang).

That's not true, it wasn't a retcon, Kang's 1st appearance has him telling the Avengers his origin as Rama-Tut.

Gryfter said:
My wife on the other hand was disappointed. She has no idea who or what a Kang is and to her it was a lot of build-up to a nothing reveal. Her opinion might change once more about the character comes out down the line, but for now she thought is was as bad the unnecessary fight scenes at the end of most Marvel outings.

Kang wouldn't have worked for non-comic-fans if there wasn't a 2nd season (unless the Loki's chose to replace him, or actually betrayed eachother, i guess).

Jul 14, 2021#195

Celt Z

To me, the finale felt kinda like the Wizard of Oz. DorLoki and the Scarecrowki pull back the curtain and The Wizard is... just a dude. I mean, if your a Marvel fan, he's much more, but for the average viewer, just a dude. Of course, in this case, he offers them a brain and a way home, and DorLoki stabs him instead. Now Oz is in chaos, and Scarecrowki's screwed. Should be interesting.

Jul 14, 2021#196

ThatNickGuy

Come to think of it, I wonder what the hell Sylvie is going to do now, since she's all by herself in the citadel.

Jul 14, 2021#197

@Li3n

She still has the fancy Immortus TemPad, doesn't she?

Jul 14, 2021#198

Sara_2814

Celt Z said:
To me, the finale felt kinda like the Wizard of Oz. DorLoki and the Scarecrowki pull back the curtain and The Wizard is... just a dude. I mean, if your a Marvel fan, he's much more, but for the average viewer, just a dude. Of course, in this case, he offers them a brain and a way home, and DorLoki stabs him instead. Now Oz is in chaos, and Scarecrowki's screwed. Should be interesting.

I think this really sums up how I felt. I don't know much about the Marvel Universe, so the ending was a lot of build-up to... a guy. I had a feeling the True Fans were picking up all sorts of clues I couldn't see about whatever was going on. So I guess as a casual Marvel fan, the Wizard of Oz ending worked...okay. They got across that a can of worms had been opened, so that was enough to lead in to Season 2 where they will hopefully explain everything.

Jul 14, 2021#199

ThatNickGuy

Heh, I just learned Chris Hemsworth voiced Throg (the "blink and you miss it" appearance of Frog Thor in Loki last week). All he did was a little yell. That's exactly the kind of silly thing Hemsworth would to do, too.

"So, we'd like you to come on the Loki show."
"I'm kinda busy with Love & Thunder."
"You're voicing Frog Thor."
"What time do you want me in the booth?"

Jul 14, 2021#200

ThatNickGuy

Jul 14, 2021#201

Tinwhistler

My wife knows nothing about Marvel stuff except what's been revealed in the various shows she's watched over the years. She doesn't know who Kang is, and I didn't bother to nerd-splain it to her. She is excited for the 2nd season.

Jul 14, 2021#202

figmentPez

No, no, no. It's not Kang or Immortus. It's Kevin Feige's self-insert. This is all a meta-narrative about how he thinks the MCU will fall into chaos when he retires.

Jul 14, 2021#203

BErt

You guys are gonna feel so stupid when he reveals himself to be Mephisto

Jul 15, 2021#204

figmentPez

Jul 15, 2021#205

Shawn

It will be interesting to see what type of personality that Kang has.
With Jonathan Majors playing possibly multiple variants of the Nathaniel Richards character he could technically have a different way of playing each and everyone.
He Who Remains (possibly Immortus) was played as ancient but childish (reminded me a lot of Ford Prefect in Hitchhiker's Guide). Different variations of him may end up being far more serious and terrifying.

Now it seems obvious that with Phase 4 delving into multiverse problems that Kang seems like a major player here, but I find it odd that his first official appearance (as Kang) will be in the Antman/Wasp 3 movie. The last two entries haven't been very dark or even very important when it comes to the rest of the MCU.

Jul 15, 2021#206

Ravenpoe

Shawn said:
It will be interesting to see what type of personality that Kang has.
With Jonathan Majors playing possibly multiple variants of the Nathaniel Richards character he could technically have a different way of playing each and everyone.
He Who Remains (possibly Immortus) was played as ancient but childish (reminded me a lot of Ford Prefect in Hitchhiker's Guide). Different variations of him may end up being far more serious and terrifying.

Now it seems obvious that with Phase 4 delving into multiverse problems that Kang seems like a major player here, but I find it odd that his first official appearance (as Kang) will be in the Antman/Wasp 3 movie. The last two entries haven't been very dark or even very important when it comes to the rest of the MCU.

Kang's kingdom did appear as an Easter egg in Ant-Man and Wasp. You can spot it in the background when they go into the quantum realm.

Jul 15, 2021#207

Shawn

Is it possible that Loki got automatically ejected back to the dimension that would have branched off during his escape from Avenger’s Tower?

Jul 16, 2021#208

GasBandit

It seems to me something of an injustice that Ultron was a humdrum one-and-not-particularly-well-done, when of all things, we're going all-in on Kang for the next big bad arc, apparently.

Maybe it's just because my only substantive previous exposure to Kang was in Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes, and I wasn't so big on him there, either.

Or maybe it's just how badly they handled Ultron always stuck in my craw.

Jul 16, 2021#209

Far

James Spader was great too, I'm hoping he returns one day.

Jul 17, 2021#210

GasBandit

Jul 24, 2021#211

Tiger Tsang

Marvel made the finales of ‘Loki’ and ‘WandaVision’ sync up perfectly, and we almost missed it

Everything in the Marvel Cinematic Universe is interconnected. That was clear from the moment Nick Fury (Samuel L. Jackson) visited Tony Stark in the Iron Man post-credits scene. In the years since, heroes came and went, planets exploded, and a purple supervillain wiped out half of all life in...

www.yahoo.com

Jul 24, 2021#212

ScytheRexx

Oh that's actually really cool.

I remember when I saw that scene, how it seems to drag on for awhile longer then I expected. His "realization" that he passed the threshold of his knowledge didn't need to be a long drawn out moment, but it did, and when sitting side by side with WandaVision, it almost feels like they were supposed to be together all along. That's the good stuff.

Direct video for those that don't want to read the article.

Sep 3, 2021#213

figmentPez

Delta Variant Loki

Sep 3, 2021#214

Adam

figmentPez said:
Delta Variant Loki

That is too clever and too well done.

Sep 6, 2021#215

bhamv3

That is amazingly clever. And the costume and props are very well done.

Also she's hot.

Sep 13, 2021#216

figmentPez

"Steve Thorwin"! :rofl:

Sep 13, 2021#217

Celt Z

"Crikey, 'e's tryin' to steal the throne again!"

Sep 13, 2021#218

Cheesy1

Celt Z said:
"Crikey, 'e's tryin' to steal the throne again!"

Sep 13, 2021#219

Celt Z

Oct 15, 2023#220

figmentPez

I'm enjoying season 2 so far. No real spoilers to discuss, but s2e2 is titled "Breaking Bad" and it feels like a missed opportunity to not call it "Branching Bad".

Oct 15, 2023#221

Piotyr

Actually the episode is entitled "Breaking Brad".

Oct 15, 2023#222

figmentPez

Piotyr said:
Actually the episode is entitled "Breaking Brad".

REALLY? *googles* Dammit! I am mildly dyslexic, but usually it doesn't trip me up this bad.

Nov 9, 2023#223

ThatNickGuy

The Loki finale was the Doctor Whoist episode since the S2 premiere.

And it was...okay. I don't know, it didn't do much for me. I didn't honestly understand what Loki was doing at the end and it's not explained very well.

Still, good finale for what was mostly a fumbled S2.

Nov 10, 2023#224

Krisken

Huh, I loved it.

Nov 10, 2023#225

figmentPez

ThatNickGuy said:
I didn't honestly understand what Loki was doing at the end and it's not explained very well.

I thought it was pretty clear. Loki chose to take on the burden of keeping the infinite timelines alive, preventing the Time War, by setting himself up as a god. The details aren't given, but the broad strokes are clear. The new shape of the timelines is a tree, a reference to Yggdrasil the World Tree. Loki has shown himself to be his father's son, even though he was adopted and felt like Thor was the favored child. Loki hasn't just become King of Asgard, he's taken on more responsibility than he ever dreamed of, and done it not for glory, or pleasure, or even out of spite. He's now a new Allfather, in a way even Odin wasn't. He's taken on the burden of the multiverse because he genuinely cares about people, and giving them a chance.

The entire series has been building to this. Loki is burdened with glorious purpose. His variants are more varied than anyone else's. He has potential to be more than he, or anyone else, thought possible. He Who Remains offered Loki a throne at the end of time, ruling over a single timeline. Sylvie accused Loki of being seduced by that throne. Loki then decided to make his own throne, on his own terms. "It's not about what, or where, or how. It's about ~~Doctor Who~~ who." Loki found friends who he was willing to sacrifice for, and then made that sacrifice not only for them, but for everyone.

Loki, god of mischief, is doing the most punk thing possible: giving everyone free will. He destroyed the system that was keeping a totalitarian regime in place, and replaced it with infinite possibility.

Nov 11, 2023#226

Shawn

Series stuck the landing in my opinion.

Everything about it was fun and the visuals were so wonderful.

I agree this is the perfect ending for Loki realizing his true purpose.

Nov 11, 2023#227

Gryfter

Shawn said:
Series stuck the landing in my opinion.

Everything about it was fun and the visuals were so wonderful.

I agree this is the perfect ending for Loki realizing his true purpose.

Yeah, solid series and I agree that the ending was great. It's been one of the strongest Marvel series on D+ so far.

Nov 11, 2023#228

Yoshimickster

So is Loki's Yggdrassil like...THE Yggdrassil or a different thing? Like, a hypertime Yggdrassil?

Nov 11, 2023#229

Gryfter

I saw it it more as he used Yggdrasil for the model of how he would maintain the multiverse, since Yggdrasil already exists in Marvel lore as Thor described it to Jane in the first Thor movie. HWR's solution was a ring but that model doesn't work in a situation where infinite branches can occur as the whole season showed.

Nov 11, 2023#230

Yoshimickster

Gryfter said:
I saw it it more as he used Yggdrasil for the model of how he would maintain the multiverse, since Yggdrasil already exists in Marvel lore as Thor described it to Jane in the first Thor movie. HWR's solution was a ring but that model doesn't work in a situation where infinite branches can occur as the whole season showed.

OOH so Loki PLAGIARIZED Yggdrassil? THAT is on brand, I love it.

Nov 11, 2023#231

evilmike

Or, Loki now exists out of time. It looks like Yggdrasil because it was always Yggdrasil.

Nov 11, 2023#232

Yoshimickster

evilmike said:
Or, Loki now exists out of time. It looks like Yggdrasil because it was always Yggdrasil.

AH, chicken or the egg.

Nov 11, 2023#233

Krisken

But also, you are dealing with time, and someone messed with time and sorta re-wrote it to exclude other realities. Maybe it was always Yggdrasil and always required a Loki to bring it into place, but He Who Remains ruined that for a period.

Nov 13, 2023#234

Celt Z

What I really liked about Loki, both seasons 1and especially 2, is that it really felt like a solid science fiction tale. It wasn't a "superhero story", it went back to Thor's origins in the scifi Journey Into Mystery comics. I've always felt that what made the best Marvel films and series is when they pick a genre that best fits the character and build around that. I feel like the weakest Marvel offerings are the ones that forget that. I feel like Loki was one of the better examples as of late why these characters can be worth exploring. Marvel can continue success if they remember "superhero" isn't, and shouldn't be, a genre; it is a medium to tell a story with.

That, and stop releasing things every few months. Breath in between offerings, okay? Leave 'em wanting more.

Nov 13, 2023#235

bhamv3

Celt Z said:
That, and stop releasing things every few months.

This has been the main issue for me. Even if all of Marvel's offerings were excellent (and, let's be fair, not all of them have been excellent) there's simply too much of them, and I haven't been able to keep up. If I stop watching and a backlog of shows and movies builds up, this doesn't make me want to get cracking and watch them all, it just makes me want to stop watching altogether.

If watching Marvel movies and shows starts to feel like homework, then I'm gonna lose interest.

Also I still need to finish Moon Knight.

Nov 13, 2023#236

Celt Z

I, personally, don't object to how many projects they're making. I like that they're looking at variety. I just think they're releasing them too often and too close together. They're flooding the market. Slow it down, give us some time to digest, and then have something to look forward to.

Nov 13, 2023#237

Shawn

Celt Z said:
I, personally, don't object to how many projects they're making. I like that they're looking at variety. I just think they're releasing them too often and too close together. They're flooding the market. Slow it down, give us some time to digest, and then have something to look forward to.

I'm not all that worried about the speed of the projects coming out. The quality of them has dipped these last few seasons. If that has to do with how quickly they are churning out projects then yeah, they need to slow down. But if they could put out stuff consistently as strong as Loki and Guardians 3 I'd be just fine with their current release schedule.

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