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Captain America: Civil War (spoilers!)

Apr 28, 2016#1

evilmike

No, I don't have any.

I'm just trying to avoid them for the next seven days. To that end, please put your spoiler discussions here (and I'll look at this thread a week from now.)

Apr 28, 2016#2

Terrik

It was the worst movie I have ever seen. Spiderman sounded (and acted) like twelve year old, Ant-man was shoehorned in and completely awkward, and they somehow miraculously made Captain America (the I-Do-Superman-Better-Than-Superman hero), a better stand-in for Hitler than Iron Man was in the comics.

2/10 (extra point for Black Widow fanservice). Would not recommend.

Apr 28, 2016#3

Tress

Terrik said:
It was the worst movie I have ever seen. Spiderman sounded (and acted) like twelve year old, Ant-man was shoehorned in and completely awkward, and they somehow miraculously made Captain America (the I-Do-Superman-Better-Than-Superman hero), a better stand-in for Hitler than Iron Man was in the comics.

2/10 (extra point for Black Widow fanservice). Would not recommend.

Not sure if serious...?

Apr 28, 2016#4

Ravenpoe

Tress said:
Not sure if serious...?

We just told him he was watching Civil War. Gotta get those Batman v Superman ticket sales somehow.

Apr 28, 2016#5

Terrik

Tress said:
Not sure if serious...?

And I thought I had written it too ridiculous to be real. Civil war will be awesome.

Apr 28, 2016#6

Reverent-one

Terrik said:
And I thought I had written it too ridiculous to be real. Civil war will be awesome.

It threw me off too. Everything you wrote is theoretically possible, they did get a younger spider-man, Antman interacted much with the rest of the MCU so he could be integrated poorly, and it wouldn't be the first time a paragon of good hero has been ruined.

Apr 28, 2016#7

bhamv3

It's been released here in Taiwan already. Everything Terrik posted is true.

Spider-Man sounded like a 12 year old boy doing his best Deadpool impression. "*gasp* You have a metal arm? That's like the coolest shit ever, man!" I honestly would not be surprised if it was actually a young Ryan Reynolds in the costume. Ant-Man ends up saving the day in some of the deusest-exest-machinaest bullcrap ever. Two words: Giant Man. More words: Iron Man's armor withstood hits from Mjolnir, you're telling me it gets crushed like an egg from getting stepped on by a twenty-feet-tall Paul Rudd? Oh, and Cap's shocking twist in the end completely betrayed the character from the previous films, as well as his whole comics backstory. There is no fucking way that Captain America is actually Red Skull okay???

Though I will acknowledge that Black Widow's scene, where she seduces Baron Zemo for information, was nice. But she dies afterwards without actually passing on the information to everyone, which means in the context of the storyline, the sex scene was completely pointless, and therefore was only there for fanservice.

And what was with all the off-screen deaths? Did they run out of film or something, so they couldn't actually show us Hawkeye, Vision, Wanda, Black Panther, and Bucky dying? I mean, ok, we saw Natasha's death, and Rhodey's death was a big deal. And Cap, of course, gets his dramatic death scene before he miraculously revives himself and is revealed to be Red Skull. But seriously, so many characters just got a "oh he didn't make it" mention and that's it.

I'm done with the MCU now. This movie is so bad it makes all the previous MCU movies bad by association.

:troll:

Apr 30, 2016#8

bhamv3

Ok, for real this time. Just got back from Civil War. Quite liked it. Spoilers ahoy.

First, I'm both surprised and unsurprised that no one died. At first I was certain that at least a few people were going to die, firstly because of how Civil War in the comics ended with Cap's death, secondly because apparently this was the last movie Chris Evans's contract runs to, and thirdly because the MCU is getting a bit overcrowded so I thought they'd thin out the roster here. Anyway, the closest we get to death is Rhodey getting paralyzed, which probably means War Machine will need to retire for the time being. One thing I liked about the movie was that it never tried to deliberately hint at upcoming deaths. Contrast that to, say, Age of Ultron, in which Hawkeye dying was foreshadowed throughout (and then subverted too). This means that Civil War audiences are constantly kept guessing at whether someone's about to die.

Secondly, I loved the nods the movie had towards the comics. Cap's famous "no, you move" speech makes an appearance. The iconic shot of Cap and Iron Man pushing against each other also shows up. Falcon gets a pet falcon, albeit a mechanical one here.

Thirdly, I liked how throughout all the battles, the hierarchy of strength among the heroes is consistently maintained. There's never a moment of, "Bullshit, there's no way A could've beaten B!" Spider-Man is shown as being much stronger and more durable than Cap and the others. Clint tries to fight Vision and Black Panther hand-to-hand, and both times finds himself completely out of his league. Bucky takes on Romanov, Sharon Carter, Falcon, and a suit-less Stark in succession, and handily wins. There's no ass-pull victory anywhere along the line.

Though I did wonder how is it Black Panther can keep up with Bucky and Cap, both having been enhanced with the super soldier serum, but I suppose this will be explained in his solo film.

Finally, Martin Freeman has a freaking part in this freaking movie!!! My dream of seeing Martin Freeman and Benedict Cumberbatch interact in the Dr. Strange movie lives on!!!!!!

May 1, 2016#9

tegid

Black Panther has some mystical shit going on in the comics, doesn't he?

I loved Spider-man. He was well introduced worked great as a secondary character (although it makes me worry a bit about how his solo movie will be). I liked his banter a lot. Also liked many other characters, and the acting was pretty good. And aunt hottie is hot (why?!).

If I had to critizice something, the battle at the airport went on for a bit too much, and at some points I asked myself: 'where is X character?'. Also, I fell that the movie does not have a story with a real beginning and end (in particular, it ends the story of Bucky... but it doesn't). Rather, it's objective is changing the status quo of the MCU, and as such it takes as its starting point aaaall the other movies and at ends pointing to many of the movies to come. Also, people at my cinema laughed way too much :/

EDIT: Oh, and I went in with low expectations because just before I read Terrik's post and took it at face value :wololo:

May 2, 2016#10

ScytheRexx

I have not seen the full movie yet, but I decided to spoil myself by watching some cam footage of the airport fight. I am weak since I likely won't be able to see it for another few weeks.

It's extremely well done. Spider-Man is the best I think I have ever seen him, just nothing but youthful vigor and a playful nonchalance. It actually made me realize how... angsty the past Spider-man movies have been, even the ones with Toby.

This Spider-man is in the middle of a hugely emotional battle for some people, and he has to note how "awesome" Bucky's metal arm is, or have general curiosity about everything around him, including asking Falcon about how his wings are constructed. When taking down Scott Lang (fucking GIANT MAN) he made a comment about "Hey you guys remember that old movie empire strikes back?" making Rhodes ask Tony "Jeeze how young is this guy?", before using his web to wrap up Lang's legs for the knock down blow, ending with a "Wow that is awesome!" thumbs up before getting himself knocked out for the count.

I was also very surprised of the intensity of Black Panther. Where most of the heroes are a little more playful in their banter or fighting (even Bucky, surprisingly), Black Panther is nothing but pure focus. He wants Bucky, and anything in his way is going to move, or he will make them move. I think my favorite part is when he dodges half of Hawkeyes arrows, catching the last two and just letting them explode in his face with barely a flinch. Hawkeye converts his bow into a battle staff and goes "I don't think we met, my name is Clint" to which Panther just says "I don't care" before the fight continues. Ever moment something is not in his way he is making a line for Bucky, even appearing out of nowhere at the end.

I think my only disappointment was Vision. Honestly almost all the heroes had a ton of time fighting each other, but Vision just sort of... hung around. He appears to stop the Cap gang from escaping, then looks like he is joining the fight, but once it happens he only appears again later on to save Black Panther from a bus, bonk Scott in the chest, beam down a control tower, then makes the worst mistake of his so far short life (I don't feel like spoiling that part). At no point do they show him going toe to toe with any other hero in a one-on-one battle (unless you count him bonking Scott). I really would have liked seeing that, even if just a little.

God I want to see this movie. ARG :mad:

May 2, 2016#11

HCGLNS

To be fair his power level is exponentially greater than the others.

May 2, 2016#12

bhamv3

Regarding Vision, the movie portrays him as being extremely reluctant to get involved in the conflict. Ostensibly, he's on Stark's side, but he only ever uses force against Cap's team as a last resort. If he wanted to, he could single-handedly wipe out everyone on the anti-registration side, with possibly only Wanda giving him some trouble. The thing is, though, he really doesn't want to.

May 2, 2016#13

ScytheRexx

One other comment on spider-man, but I am honestly super happy with his cgi. At no point did I feel he was just a 3d model flailing around, and the extra expressions it allowed with his eyes added so much emotion while in his suit. you can tell when he is surprised or focused and even just light movements when he talks. It adds a whole new dimension to his scenes that was missing in the actual worn suits from the last two versions, probably the only time I will ever give cgi a one up over practical.

May 5, 2016#14

Terrik

Welp, seeing this an IMAX in an hour. My 'review' better not be accurate

May 5, 2016#15

Dave

Just got back and might I say...wow. Saw it in glorious 3D (once we switched glasses to the correct 3D tech - thanks high school girl working part time!) Loved almost everything about it but I STILL can't stand it when Stan Lee comes in, especially since they've been giving him cutesy lines.

Aunt May bugged me, but Spidey was AWESOME! And please know that there are TWO credit scenes. One right at the beginning and one at the end of the credits. Most people saw the first but not the second.

Oh, and 3 hours! Did not feel like it, though.

May 6, 2016#16

phil

I liked it, overall but some things kinda bugged me. I'm not 100% sure what Cap's plan was other than to not sign the thing and also Bucky and him be friends again. Like what did they really need Clint and Scott for? Was he making an underground avengers team? Did he think winning a fight with Tony would make the legislation go away? What was his end game? I mean even right now he's just in wakanda with what seems like no plan.

It also kind of bothered me how quickly everything kind of wrapped up? Like tony and Steve almost kill each other but then just walk away....and a week or so later tony gets a phone and a letter with "we still cool though, right?" When honestly it felt like there's just no coming back from any of this.

May 6, 2016#17

bhamv3

Cap's position was that he would use his best judgment to decide when and where to use his powers. When the attack in Vienna happened, he decided to go after Bucky. Once he learned about Zemo's search for the other Winter Soldiers from Bucky, that's where he focused his efforts. His attention was never really on beating Tony and the other supporters of the Accords, though he knew that they would probably never leave him alone. To this end, he recruited Clint, Wanda, and Scott, because he thought he might need help fending off Tony's team, and they could also help him when he reached Hydra's Winter Soldier facility in Siberia.

May 6, 2016#18

Yoshimickster

I thought Aunt May being young in this was a little weird too, but I'm cool with it since Spidey was just great, real show stealer! Also REALLY glad we got to see Giant Man in this, though part of me wishes his costume would've changed like in "Earth's Mightiest Heroes".

ALSO-I find it interesting that Pepper wasn't even IN this film, yet I found the relationship drama between her and Tony infinitely more interesting than whatever they tried to make me believe Clark and Lois had in the latest debacle from Defective Comics Entertainment.

May 6, 2016#19

phil

Oh right, and it felt weird seeing aunt may being super hot.

May 6, 2016#20

Jax

phil said:
I liked it, overall but some things kinda bugged me. I'm not 100% sure what Cap's plan was other than to not sign the thing and also Bucky and him be friends again. Like what did they really need Clint and Scott for? Was he making an underground avengers team? Did he think winning a fight with Tony would make the legislation go away? What was his end game? I mean even right now he's just in wakanda with what seems like no plan.

It also kind of bothered me how quickly everything kind of wrapped up? Like tony and Steve almost kill each other but then just walk away....and a week or so later tony gets a phone and a letter with "we still cool though, right?" When honestly it felt like there's just no coming back from any of this.

The main reason for Cap to assemble his own team was because they were going after Zemo, and possibly facing 5 other Winter Soldier. He wasn't interested in fighting Tony, but he wasn't about to surrender either.

Here's a short motivation for each side:
Tony: Overcome by guilt (as we've seen in previous movies too) of civilian casualties, he accepts that there is a need to be governed, to be controlled. By signing the accords, they can still act as a superhero force but within the law.
Steve: Feeling the aftermath of Shield's/Hydra's downfall, he does not trust in politics and government that much anymore. What if they are sent to someplace they don't want to interfere with or forbidden to intervene in something that is unacceptable in their eyes? He feels that they themselves are best equipped to assess the situation and respond accordingly. Plus, the current fight was about his friend, Bucky.

The funny part here is that Tony was originally a loose cannon, playing by his own rules and generally disregarded the authorities, whereas Steve was trained to follow the chain of command due to his military background. i think this bit also reflects the comics where the characters take the opposite stand of what would be expected.

Also, things are not 'cool' between the two at the end of the movie, everything is not back to normal. Cap and his team are still wanted. Each side regrets how things have become, but they still stand by their decision. It's just that Cap sends the letter to let him know that they are not full blown enemies from now on. They are still on the 'same side', despite their different viewpoints and now the law standing in between them. And if there is ever a crisis or problem that Tony can't overcome by himself, they can still count on Cap and his team.
At first I kind of expected them to duke it out, then come back together to face a bigger threat. So the ending felt kinda anti-climactic to me too. But now I get that this more of a turning point in the series and can't wait how it will influence future movies.

Last note, about Spider-Man: I had avoided as much news and trailers before this movie, so I didn't know he would be a young kid or how he would be introduced. As such, the first shock was a bit unpleasant (I mean, why a kid? And his original costume, wow.. And then: what was the motivation for him to be in this movie, other than as a recruit for Tony's team? At least Black Panther is given an actual reason for being there.. And Tony's team isn't exactly lacking firepower..). But during the battle he quickly grew on me, he's still the wise cracking Spidey that I know and love.

Awesome movie.

May 6, 2016#21

bhamv3

It's been a week since I saw the movie, so my memory may be hazy, but if I recall correctly, Steve never uses the Hydra/SHIELD situation as a concrete example of why he doesn't like government oversight, right? He never actually says, "Hey, remember when SHIELD was taken over by Hydra? Yeah, that could happen again." That would've been a strong argument for his point of view, so its absence means the movie misses out on a key opportunity to bring people over to Cap's side of the debate. As it is, it feels like Tony's arguments feel more real and more convincing.

May 6, 2016#22

Yoshimickster

Marvel person A: Hey you know how we can use Spider-man now?

Marvel person B: Yeah.

Marvel person A: WELL-what if instead of casting some 24-28 year old, we cast an ACTUAL teenager?

Marvel person B: BRILLIANT!

Seriously, why did it take Hollywood THREE movie franchises to cast an age appropriate Spider-man? Granted there were OTHER problems with Tobey and Garfield's performances, but still.

May 7, 2016#23

Tiger Tsang

Yoshimickster said:
Marvel person A: Hey you know how we can use Spider-man now?

Marvel person B: Yeah.

Marvel person A: WELL-what if instead of casting some 24-28 year old, we cast an ACTUAL teenager?

Marvel person B: BRILLIANT!

Seriously, why did it take Hollywood THREE movie franchises to cast an age appropriate Spider-man? Granted there were OTHER problems with Tobey and Garfield's performances, but still.

IMHO Tobey was a better Peter, Garfield a better Spiderman.

May 7, 2016#24

Sparhawk

Tiger Tsang said:
IMHO Tobey was a better Peter, Garfield a better Spiderman.

I think that Tom Holland does a great job, in a short time, of combining the two into a better whole. You get the real feeling that Peter is a science nerd and still new to the whole Spider-Man thing, while also being a real wise-acre to hide the fact that he's nervous and a little scared about everything going on around him.

May 7, 2016#25

Yoshimickster

Tiger Tsang said:
IMHO Tobey was a better Peter, Garfield a better Spiderman.

Sparhawk said:
I think that Tom Holland does a great job, in a short time, of combining the two into a better whole. You get the real feeling that Peter is a science nerd and still new to the whole Spider-Man thing, while also being a real wise-acre to hide the fact that he's nervous and a little scared about everything going on around him.

Agreed on both fronts, I also like how there's a legit transformation from Peter to Spider-man albeit subtle. ALSO-there better be a cross-over with him and Daredevil, that'd be awesome.

FINAL ALSO-I like how Spidey has a REAL reason for joining up with Iron Man in this Civil War in that what Cap was doing was actually both illegal AND morally questionable, and didn't end up revealing his secret identity to the fucking public leading to Aunt May getting shot leading to the most pointless story-line of all TIME! MARVEL CINEMATIC UNIVERSE: Only the good parts.

May 7, 2016#26

HCGLNS

Ready to see Civil War!

May 7, 2016#27

Hailey Knight

Got back a couple hours ago. Before I get in my comments, I want to say I'm glad this thread was made. We have a main Marvel thread, but it's good to make threads like this for the big movies so we don't have pages of spoiler tags in the main thread. Someone should probably do that when Guardians 2 comes out next year.

Okay! I really enjoyed this. In contrast to Ultron, where I thought the movie was hindered by the desire to move Marvel universe stuff, I felt this movie didn't move the arc of movies much, but was more focused on just being a good movie. I appreciate that it kept the focus on Cap, Bucky, and Tony, all the way to the end, so that it didn't feel so much like Avengers 2.5 outside of the airport battle.

- Crossbones's presence made me think this was going to end like the comics, which I'm sure is why he's even in this at all. Killing him at the beginning was a fun way of telling people who know the comics "haha, you know nothing."

- T'Challa was a strong presence even before the reveal of Black Panther. Playfully mentioning the end of Winter Soldier to Black Widow was a good way to bring him in, and giving him a revenge story sealed the deal. Made me wish his movie was coming out next year instead of 2018, but I'm also excited for ....

- The other newly-introduced, Spider-man ... well, everyone's said what there is to say. He's chatty, he's awestruck, he has skills. I knew they were casting a kid, and I'm so glad. He has the right demeanor. I love the little "I have to impress Mr. Stark" bit, and when fighting Cap "that shield does NOT obey the laws of physics!" He was definitely a scene stealer and I'm looking forward to Homecoming next year based on his time in Civil War.

- Fucking General Ross. Excuse me, Secretary Ross. When I saw that stupid undersea prison, I knew he had to have blueballs over wishing he could put Bruce Banner in there and had to settle for a chunk of the Avengers. "Do you know where Thor or Banner are? Or just Banner. Anyone know where Banner is? Come on, I'd just ... I'd really like to know where Banner is. That'd really make me happy." Fuck, anyone could've gotten out of their cell if they'd known where Ross could find the Hulk. I've always hated that guy.

- One gripe I have is how quickly Scott Lang jumped on-board with Cap's side, considering they even warn him he'll be a criminal again if he helped them. I know he thought they were after assassins, but still, considering how much he wanted to be a part of his daughter's life in Ant-Man, it felt strange that he'd just throw in so quickly.

- Speaking of the five assassins/the rest of the Winter Soldier six-pack, I was kind of dreading a lame duck climax. Five no-names with Bucky's abilities did not sound like something worth giving a shit about. But it made good bait, it worked, and the Russo brothers proved themselves, because the reveal of Zemo's plan, and the results, was excellent. I really thought someone was going to die there. The good thing for Cap/Bucky is that while their abilities are part of them, they just needed to disable Tony's suit. It was a dramatic climax and you could feel everything they were going through. The scene with T'Challa and Zemo was solid; I really loved that quiet, intense moment. All of this being the work of one man's revenge, a man without an agency behind him, no superpowers, no super-tech, just as he said, his experience and determination, just felt right, the kind of tone you'd expect out of a non-superhero movie.

- I thought the end with Tony was fine. He had time to cool off and accept what Steve said, that Bucky wasn't in control as the Winter Soldier, which Tony already knew, but considering the video he'd just watched--I mean, he's only human. Maybe he could never forgive Bucky, but he could forgive Cap, even if they can't be friends anymore. Plus, fuck General Ross. He can stay on hold.

I was pleasantly surprised with the way things played out in the end. The movie didn't feel bloated like I was worried it would and I'm confident the Russo brothers are going to knock it out of the park with Avengers 3 and 4.

May 7, 2016#28

IronBrig4

I thoroughly enjoyed it and thought it blew Batman vs. Superman out of the water.

Most of what I liked has already been said. But I do have one gripe. And it was the same thing I complained about in Winter Soldier. Stop with the shaky cam already. It diminishes a movie and makes it look cheap. I get it. There's action. No, I don't want to feel like I'm part of the action. I just want to be able to see what's going on.

May 7, 2016#29

Hailey Knight

Some stuff I meant to mention but forgot (this is a packed movie):

- The political stuff reminded me of issues going on in BvS, except done well. There's even a bomb framing, but it does involve a jar of urine, and the person being framed would actually do something like that to assassinate someone. It's also interesting that both movies address a city-wide disaster, though in that case it makes more sense in BvS, because really if the Avengers had ignored saving people, they could've stopped Ultron earlier and blown up the city before it got too high in the atmosphere. Instead Cap made rescue a priority and didn't want to destroy the would-be meteor until the civilians were cleared. That Hulk footage was pretty damning though from the first Avengers movie, since more controlled attacks against the Chitari were working, so Hulk going on a rampage would lead to more unnecessary deaths. But still killed fewer people than Superman in Man of Steel, and Ross really just included that because, like I said, he's got a hard-on for Hulk-hunting.

- I appreciate that Black Widow backed up Cap at the last minute of the airport fight. That made more sense for her, especially since you could see her leaning that way earlier, but sticking with Tony because she wanted the world to trust the team.

- I know it's brought up in the movie that Vision doesn't fully understand what he is, but others in the movie understand even less and it bugged me. Particularly Tony. He treats Vision like he's going to always be on Tony's side, which is really asinine, like Tony has learned nothing from what happened with Ultron. This is not Jarvis personified. Near the end when Vision is sitting alone at the chess board, rotating one piece in his hand--you can't leave a mind like that to stew in isolation. I almost think that if Cap hadn't played prison break at the end, Vision would have. This is not an entity that thinks as highly of Tony Stark as Tony Stark thinks of himself.

May 7, 2016#30

Jax

bhamv3 said:
It's been a week since I saw the movie, so my memory may be hazy, but if I recall correctly, Steve never uses the Hydra/SHIELD situation as a concrete example of why he doesn't like government oversight, right? He never actually says, "Hey, remember when SHIELD was taken over by Hydra? Yeah, that could happen again." That would've been a strong argument for his point of view, so its absence means the movie misses out on a key opportunity to bring people over to Cap's side of the debate. As it is, it feels like Tony's arguments feel more real and more convincing.

The problem here is that it is a little harder to infiltrate 113 or so (how many countries exactly signed the accords?) governments, and if an organisation manages thát, it's pretty much game over anyway. Plus there would have to be some kind of a gut feeling or certainty for this to happen in the first place to distrust almost all the governments of the world.

The simpler reason is what Cap said: what if they send us to a situation that we don't want? Or if we're forbidden to intervene where help is needed? etc.

May 7, 2016#31

Charlie Don't Surf

This movie is a disaster at the us box office, it had a smaller opening day than Batman v. Superman

May 7, 2016#32

Hailey Knight

Charlie Don't Surf said:
This movie is a disaster at the us box office, it had a smaller opening day than Batman v. Superman

I wish this was just a joke, but there are people posting that as a critique of Civil War's performance. Civil War still had a bigger weekend, which is surprising considering the name recognizability for average Joe on Batman and Superman. I expected BvS to keep on top of it in that.

May 7, 2016#33

GasBandit

Saw it today. Ditto to Ironbrig's "shaky-cam" action sequences gripe. Especially just when it's showing someone driving a car. We get it, he's driving and trying to drive faster, you don't have to have a cameraman with palsy to communicate that.

That was really my only gripe though. Great movie. Good stuff.

Although, can someone explain the "orange slices" thing when Scott Lang un-giants?

May 8, 2016#34

klew

GasBandit said:
Although, can someone explain the "orange slices" thing when Scott Lang un-giants?

I figured it was a reference to orange slices being served at halftime at kid soccer games.

I didn't understand Stark's claim that the Avengers need to be held accountable for the damage. Yes, they should answer for their actions. But wouldn't an oversight committee be the ones accountable? "They sent us to this area to do what we do and 1000 civilians died. We were just following orders." When a sports team under-performs, you usually fire the coach.

May 8, 2016#35

Jax

I don't think sport analogies are the right kind here.. If a soldier in a battlefield loses control and kills civilians, do you drag him to court-martial or his CO (or even the general/government that issued the mission) that sent him there?

If you agree with Tony's claim that they should answer for their actions, then who should they answer to, if not the collective governments of the world? That's the whole point of the committee, a cooperation of all those countries that basically represent the world.

May 8, 2016#36

Hailey Knight

Except as Falcon pointed out, they're really just shifting the blame to their oversight committee. They'd essentially be treated like a weapon, the way Tony was treating Scarlet Witch, the way Ross referenced Thor and Hulk. That's not really taking responsibility, that's being able to ignore it because you were just following orders.

Really I think T'Challa says everything that needs to be said. Two people in a room can get more done than 100. How long would it have taken the U.N. to decide to send the Avengers to Sokovia, and what restrictions would they have had? I have a feeling it would've resembled the shadowy council from the first Avengers movie, where they wanted to nuke New York City to make the problem go away. They would've had the Avengers just destroy it all, because by the time they decided to send them in, it would've been too late to follow Cap's intent of evacuating civilians.

Obviously the counter-argument is the damage and death caused by letting that situation drag out. There's no perfect right answer.

May 8, 2016#37

Sparhawk

GasBandit said:
Although, can someone explain the "orange slices" thing when Scott Lang un-giants?

He mentions that he got a huge headache when he experimented with it in the lab, vitamin C is a natural analgesic and possibly a reference to being "out of the game" on the fight.

May 8, 2016#38

Bubble181

Jax said:
I don't think sport analogies are the right kind here.. If a soldier in a battlefield loses control and kills civilians, do you drag him to court-martial or his CO (or even the general/government that issued the mission) that sent him there?

If a solider "loses control", the soldier. If his "smart bombs" blow up a hospital because he was aimed that way, his CO. "Collateral damage" is sadly a big thing in real life, and some governments care less than others.

May 8, 2016#39

GasBandit

klew said:
I figured it was a reference to orange slices being served at halftime at kid soccer games.

Huh. I didn't know that was a thing. TIL.[DOUBLEPOST=1462719246,1462719180][/DOUBLEPOST]

Sparhawk said:
He mentions that he got a huge headache when he experimented with it in the lab, vitamin C is a natural analgesic and possibly a reference to being "out of the game" on the fight.

But if it was a headache joke, wouldn't it have been more obvious/accessible if he'd said something like "Anybody got any ibuprofen?"

May 8, 2016#40

Dave

GasBandit said:
Although, can someone explain the "orange slices" thing when Scott Lang un-giants?

Before he goes big he talks about how he's only done it once in a lab and afterwards he passed out. Orange slices help replace electrolytes (it's what the body craves!) and staves off passing out.

May 8, 2016#41

GasBandit

Dave said:
Before he goes big he talks about how he's only done it once in a lab and afterwards he passed out. Orange slices help replace electrolytes (it's what the body craves!) and staves off passing out.

Alrighty then. You'd think this wouldn't have been news to me, what with doctors for parents, but this was the first time I've ever heard of the orange slices thing.

May 8, 2016#42

Ravenpoe

GasBandit said:
Alrighty then. You'd think this wouldn't have been news to me, what with doctors for parents, but this was the first time I've ever heard of the orange slices thing.

It's also why they give you oranges when you donate blood.

May 8, 2016#43

klew

Plus, I know they wanted the teams to start out even (6v6?), even though Vision is already OP, but if Spider-Man had time to think about both sides, he might agree more with Captain America's stance on personal responsibility, what with his realization about great power after walking away when someone needed help.

May 8, 2016#44

Dei

Hey guys, remember that old movie, "The Empire Strikes Back?"

May 8, 2016#45

Hailey Knight

At least he's seen the original trilogy. Now we know Uncle Ben and Aunt May were raising him right.

May 8, 2016#46

Bubble181

GasBandit said:
Alrighty then. You'd think this wouldn't have been news to me, what with doctors for parents, but this was the first time I've ever heard of the orange slices thing.

It's weird, considering I know it... As one of those typical American things.

May 8, 2016#47

CynicismKills

Dang that was a blast.

Really excited for Spider-Man, Ant Man/Wasp and Black Panther's solo movies now.

May 8, 2016#48

ScytheRexx

Finally saw it. While it didn't do great on opening day it blew everything away internationally for the first weekend. Unless we see a huge drop off next week it's primed to take the top spot for the year so far.

I think all the great points about the movie have already been said, but I wanted to say something a little against the grain from what I have seen around the net. Zemo was a great villain.

Okay, maybe that isn't entirely accurate, since Zemo was not really a "villain" in the general sense. Not on the same level as Ronan or Ultron or even Peirce.

Zemo's entire arc was hinted at very early when Tony Stark is confronted by that woman in the hallways about her dead son, and how she blamed him for it. Zemo was not, in the end, a rich billionaire scratching some itch to watch powerful people fight, or a man hellbent on world domination looking to utilize super-soldiers, or all the other contrived, generic things he could have easily been. No, he was a regular man, with some military background, that lost everything he loved in Sokovia during the events of AoU, driven by vengeance, and had the patience to work towards a seemingly impossible goal, to tear down the Avengers from within. He had no henchman, having to rely on trickery to get the code book, used a regular carrier service to deliver an EMP, and took a regular old flight to Russia.

I love that the Winter Soldiers that Cap and Bucky thought he was going to unleash were a total red herring, and that all he wanted in the end was the video of Bucky killing Tony's parents. He was just looking for the hail merry that he knew would destroy the unity of the Avengers, and he played a long game to get it.

He was the every man, and a representative of all the people that have suffered in the shadows from the Avengers, and provided that perspective in a very satisfying way for me. The third, powerless side to all this crazy meta-human insanity. Even for the little time he was in the movie, he is now up there with Loki and Peirce as my favorite Marvel "villains".

May 8, 2016#49

HCGLNS

Can we talk about how awesome the kiss scene was, because it was pretty awesome.

May 8, 2016#50

ScytheRexx

HCGLNS said:
Can we talk about how awesome the kiss scene was, because it was pretty awesome.

Dude, Steve is smooching his old love interests niece. That's pretty weird.

Speaking of Peggy, watching her funeral, and later watching Howard Stark get punched to death in the face, is going to make the next season of Agent Carter really, REALLY bittersweet.

P.S. It's a bit weird watching Agents of Shield, with all Hydras obsession making Super Soldiers, and then find out they have five perfectly viable ones frozen in Russia. I guess they just forgot about them? I know the flashback showed they were hard to control, so I guess they were just scrapped and left for a later phase that never came.

May 8, 2016#51

Dei

Yeah, non pliable super soldiers are not very useful.

I agree the actual kiss felt so squicky to me, but Falcon and Bucky in the car was awesome.

May 8, 2016#52

bhamv3

Y'know, the feeling I got was that Steve kissed Sharon as a way of thanking her, because he can tell she's got the hots for him. He may not really like her in a romantic sense, but he's willing to let her briefly indulge in the fantasy because of all she's done for him.

But of course, to Sam and Bucky, they're all like, "Aww yeah, that's my boy!"

May 8, 2016#53

Hailey Knight

ScytheRexx said:
Finally saw it. While it didn't do great on opening day it blew everything away internationally for the first weekend. Unless we see a huge drop off next week it's primed to take the top spot for the year so far.

I think all the great points about the movie have already been said, but I wanted to say something a little against the grain from what I have seen around the net. Zemo was a great villain.

Okay, maybe that isn't entirely accurate, since Zemo was not really a "villain" in the general sense. Not on the same level as Ronan or Ultron or even Peirce.

Zemo's entire arc was hinted at very early when Tony Stark is confronted by that woman in the hallways about her dead son, and how she blamed him for it. Zemo was not, in the end, a rich billionaire scratching some itch to watch powerful people fight, or a man hellbent on world domination looking to utilize super-soldiers, or all the other contrived, generic things he could have easily been. No, he was a regular man, with some military background, that lost everything he loved in Sokovia during the events of AoU, driven by vengeance, and had the patience to work towards a seemingly impossible goal, to tear down the Avengers from within. He had no henchman, having to rely on trickery to get the code book, used a regular carrier service to deliver an EMP, and took a regular old flight to Russia.

I love that the Winter Soldiers that Cap and Bucky thought he was going to unleash were a total red herring, and that all he wanted in the end was the video of Bucky killing Tony's parents. He was just looking for the hail merry that he knew would destroy the unity of the Avengers, and he played a long game to get it.

He was the every man, and a representative of all the people that have suffered in the shadows from the Avengers, and provided that perspective in a very satisfying way for me. The third, powerless side to all this crazy meta-human insanity. Even for the little time he was in the movie, he is now up there with Loki and Peirce as my favorite Marvel "villains".

Yes, all of this. Zemo in this movie felt like a character much in line with the tone of Captain America: The Winter Soldier. I totally bought the red herring and cannot express how pleasantly surprised I was about how everything turned out. What a masterful plan he put together, using very simple means to achieve grandiose results. I'm hoping the internet video reviewers blasting this for not having a big monster villain at the end are the minority. If not, I hope people come around, because the Russo brothers really deserve praise for how they handled the finale. This was much more intelligent and emotionally charged than having Thanos show up all of a sudden as Half in the Bag suggested.

There's a simple storytelling beauty in having it be just this ordinary man. No suit, no tools, no powers. And he's not the mustache-twirling emotionless dickshit like Ronan either. He shows remorse to T'Challa, fully expecting to get killed at that moment, and then willing to do it himself when T'Challa won't. He didn't even wait to watch his work play out; this was all he'd set out to do and he let it go, become the chaos he wanted. I love the line that I'm going to mangle "I can't beat them. Stronger men than me have tried."

May 8, 2016#54

HCGLNS

Zemo got me as I expected a full on Hydra connection and in the end it was just a common surname.

Tricksies Marvels!

May 8, 2016#55

ScytheRexx

Zero Esc said:
There's a simple storytelling beauty in having it be just this ordinary man. No suit, no tools, no powers. And he's not the mustache-twirling emotionless dickshit like Ronan either. He shows remorse to T'Challa, fully expecting to get killed at that moment, and then willing to do it himself when T'Challa won't. He didn't even wait to watch his work play out; this was all he'd set out to do and he let it go, become the chaos he wanted. I love the line that I'm going to mangle "I can't beat them. Stronger men than me have tried."

Honestly when he was sitting on the mountain, and they were playing that same dialog of his wife talking to him on the phone about the smile on his sons face, and how she was tired and going to sleep, my brain went "Oh no... no no no no. Oh god it's a message. They are dead." and then T'Challa shows up, and Zemo talks about what happened to his family, how they felt safe and then were crushed under the debris from the falling landmass, I felt for him. This is a man that in the end killed countless people through his schemes, including a innocent psychiatrist and the King of Wakanda, but I felt for him because I couldn't even grasp what I would do if I was pulling the dead bodies of those I love from a pile of rubble created by things that I am not strong enough to stop. When they showed him pull up the phone and that he finally deleted the message, I think a tear went down my cheek.

"I pulled the corpses of my family from the rubble, and the Avengers... they just flew home."

In the end he knew what he did was wrong, he was prepared to die in payment for it, but he was mournful and angry, and he was going to put the Avengers through the same pain as him before he paid that debt.

P.S. Also, watching this man who was suffering, and what his vengeance lead him to do, was what ultimately showed T'Challa that he can't let his own desire for vengeance send him down a similar path. He set out to murder Bucky for the death of his father, and in the end when confronted with the real killer, he absolved to save his fathers killer and take him to justice instead. Great moment for T'Challa that really let him grow (which is amazing considering he was a side character in the whole movie.)

May 9, 2016#56

Hailey Knight

ScytheRexx said:
P.S. Also, watching this man who was suffering, and what his vengeance lead him to do, was what ultimately showed T'Challa that he can't let his own desire for vengeance send him down a similar path. He set out to murder Bucky for the death of his father, and in the end when confronted with the real killer, he absolved to save his fathers killer and take him to justice instead. Great moment for T'Challa that really let him grow (which is amazing considering he was a side character in the whole movie.)

That whole scene was fantastic. Really wish we were getting the Black Panther movie earlier than we are, but I understand Marvel bumped Spidey up so they could make his movie rather than let Sony grow impatient and fuck around again.

May 9, 2016#57

HCGLNS

Is anyone as happy as I am that they gave that quote to Sharon?

May 9, 2016#58

ThatNickGuy

Saw it yesterday afternoon. Some bullet thoughts:

-I am absolutely ready for Black Panther and Spider-Man's solo movies. They were unquestionably the best parts of this movie.

-I want a Falcon/Winter Soldier Lethal Weapon-like buddy movie.

-Much as I loved every minute of Spidey, it still felt like a giant "Go see his solo movie!" advertisement. Like, as enjoyable as the whole Tony-in-his-apartment stuff was, I thought it brought the pacing to a screeching halt.

-Similarly, as awesome as the clusterfuck action scene was, it honestly felt out of place with the rest of the movie's mostly espionage style storytelling. Like, most of the movie was a thematic continuation of Captain America: Winter Soldier, and then suddenly, it's "AND NOW AVENGERS CLUSTERFUCK TIME!" I had a similar issue with Falcon's scene in Ant-Man because it felt tacked on. Here, it didn't necessarily feel tacked on. Just that it didn't really fall in line with the rest of the movie's pacing.

-LOVED Zemo's twist at the end and showing the footage that opened the movie. When the tape showed "1991," my jaw dropped and I knew what the last part of the movie would be.

-I don't know why, but Vision wearing normal clothes for most of the movie cracked me up.

-Zemo accomplished what Loki failed to do: destroy the Avengers by pinning them against each other.

-The shaky cam was REALLY bad in this movie. In Winter Soldier, the action was mostly pretty clear from what I remember. Here, every fight scene and car chase had horrendous shaky cam. I'm ready for that style of filmmaking to die in a fire.

Criticisms aside, I still loved the hell out of this and am considering seeing it again before it leaves theatres (likely with my sister and my nieces). Not sure where I'd place it on my list of the 13 Marvel movies to date, but it'd be relatively near the top, I think. Top 5, maybe.

May 9, 2016#59

Frank

I got lots to say, but this is the main thing I will, the casting of Marisa Tomei as Aunt May is super awkward. A buddy said to me over text that no one should want to bone Aunt May. I think I agree.

May 9, 2016#60

DarkAudit

Frank said:
I got lots to say, but this is the main thing I will, the casting of Marisa Tomei as Aunt May is super awkward. A buddy said to me over text that no one should want to bone Aunt May. I think I agree.

By keeping her a helpless, frail old biddy we got One More Day.

May 9, 2016#61

CynicismKills

I mean, even Ultimate Spider-Man May was younger, but maybe like, mid-60's instead of Immortal From Times Unknown.

May 9, 2016#62

Frank

I'm so glad Giant Man wasn't spoiled in the trailers. That was a legit fun super hero movie moment. It was the best Avengers movie by a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG shot.

May 9, 2016#63

Sparhawk

Frank said:
I'm so glad Giant Man wasn't spoiled in the trailers. That was a legit fun super hero movie moment. It was the best Avengers movie by a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG shot.

I had Giant Man spoiled to me by a Pop! figure in Target, the back of the Crossbones had a picture of the Giant Man figure.[DOUBLEPOST=1462849301,1462849196][/DOUBLEPOST]

Frank said:
I got lots to say, but this is the main thing I will, the casting of Marisa Tomei as Aunt May is super awkward. A buddy said to me over text that no one should want to bone Aunt May. I think I agree.

Tomei is 51, exactly in the range of having a nephew in high school. She looks younger than the "traditional" May, but chronologically right on target.

May 9, 2016#64

strawman

I think the aunt may thing will dismay a lot of people because they expect gray hair, and because the target audience is now within her dating age.

Ask any 20 year olds and they'll think her a little to old to date. Any attraction is really just a reflection of your own age...

May 9, 2016#65

Frank

stienman said:
I think the aunt may thing will dismay a lot of people because they expect gray hair, and because the target audience is now within her dating age.

Ask any 20 year olds and they'll think her a little to old to date. Any attraction is really just a reflection of your own age...

Having a multi-decade crush on Marisa Tomei doesn't help any.

Though the biggest crush I had in that movie was on Chris Evans' workout regimen. That helicopter sequence....lordy!

May 9, 2016#66

Cajungal

Frank said:
Having a multi-decade crush on Marisa Tomei doesn't help any.

Though the biggest crush I had in that movie was on Chris Evans' workout regimen. That helicopter sequence....lordy!

I straight up blushed during that scene.

May 9, 2016#67

IronBrig4

Aunt May shouldn't look like she was born in the 1890s.

May 9, 2016#68

Hailey Knight

Aunt May being in her 50s makes sense. Any older and she's getting into being more believably Peter's great aunt instead.

ThatNickGuy said:
Not sure where I'd place it on my list of the 13 Marvel movies to date, but it'd be relatively near the top, I think. Top 5, maybe.

Definitely in my top 5. So for me that's the three Cap movies, Avengers 1, and Guardians of the Galaxy.

May 10, 2016#69

Charlie Don't Surf

excuse me, it's Oscar-winner Marisa Tomei. put some respek on My Cousin Vinny

May 10, 2016#70

Jax

ThatNickGuy said:
-I want a Falcon/Winter Soldier Lethal Weapon-like buddy movie.

Falcon: "I'm getting too old for this shit"
Winter Soldier: "... Dude, i'm like 100 years old."

Charlie Don't Surf said:
excuse me, it's Oscar-winner Marisa Tomei. put some respek on My Cousin Vinny

Fine fine, let's just call her an OWILF then.

May 10, 2016#71

Frank

Also, I was just kidding about the whole casting thing. I think she's fine. In multiple definitions of the word.

May 10, 2016#72

Celt Z

Cajungal said:
I straight up blushed during that scene.

I did say my Mother's Day present was 2 1/2 hours alone with Chris Evans. Was not disappointed.

Jax said:
Fine fine, let's just call her an OWILF then.

Hey, since when are we listening to the opinions of the yutes?!

May 10, 2016#73

Bubble181

Jax said:
Fine fine, let's just call her an OWLILF then.

I thought I was the only one for you :cry:

May 10, 2016#74

Frank

Some legit gripes about the movie. The whole collateral damage thing only really made sense in the case of Age of Ultron.

Without the heroes, all the other situations would have ended up MUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCH worse. Like, literally the nuclear holocaust of New York City or the elimination of EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD that Hydra doesn't like. The only leg they have to stand on is Sarkovia, which is directly the fault of Tony Stark and Bruce Banner.

May 10, 2016#75

Jax

Bubble181 said:
I thought I was the only one for you

If you ever win an oscar, then you can be an OWILF too.
Don't worry, you're still my number one BILF <3

Edit: just saw what you did there... Have another <3

May 10, 2016#76

Hailey Knight

Frank said:
Some legit gripes about the movie. The whole collateral damage thing only really made sense in the case of Age of Ultron.

Without the heroes, all the other situations would have ended up MUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCH worse. Like, literally the nuclear holocaust of New York City or the elimination of EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD that Hydra doesn't like. The only leg they have to stand on is Sarkovia, which is directly the fault of Tony Stark and Bruce Banner.

Except it never seemed apparent that the governments of the world knew about Ultron's origin as a pet project by Tony and Bruce. They all focused on the damage caused during the situation during the climax.

I agree that it's bullshit, but harping on these matters when there would be collateral damage no matter what seems like exactly the kind of thing for the U.S. government to do as a means of covering its ass. Ross did have a point about ignoring borders though. Having the U.N. and Avengers sign a document would make it okay for them to go wherever. Nonetheless, I think a lot of us are on Cap's side here, much like with the comics, though at least unlike the comics they didn't turn Tony into essentially a villain. Otherwise the dialogue would've been:

"Do you know where Thor and Bruce are?"
"Space."
"How do you know?"
"Thor lives there and in about 5 seconds a rocket is going to make Bruce live there too."

May 10, 2016#77

GasBandit

My buddy's wife HATES Captain America so much. Like, even before Civil War. She says he's "just too pure and goodie goodie" so she was rooting for Iron Man. She has expressed similar views about Superman in the past. I'm not sure, but I think there's something deep in her psyche that is bent, but I'm kinda afraid to tug at that thread. Of course, this is the same woman who won't let her husband play video games (at least not without a lot of arguments, guilt tripping, and general pissyness), so no secret something's not quite right upstairs.

May 10, 2016#78

Charlie Don't Surf

GasBandit said:
My buddy's wife HATES Captain America so much. Like, even before Civil War. She says he's "just too pure and goodie goodie" so she was rooting for Iron Man. She has expressed similar views about Superman in the past. I'm not sure, but I think there's something deep in her psyche that is bent, but I'm kinda afraid to tug at that thread. Of course, this is the same woman who won't let her husband play video games (at least not without a lot of arguments, guilt tripping, and general pissyness), so no secret something's not quite right upstairs.

you are projecting a whole lot of weird misogyny and weird mental health armchair diagnoses onto this woman for not liking the same costumed superheroes as you, and I'm afraid to tug at that thread

May 10, 2016#79

Hailey Knight

GasBandit said:
My buddy's wife HATES Captain America so much. Like, even before Civil War. She says he's "just too pure and goodie goodie" so she was rooting for Iron Man. She has expressed similar views about Superman in the past. I'm not sure, but I think there's something deep in her psyche that is bent, but I'm kinda afraid to tug at that thread. Of course, this is the same woman who won't let her husband play video games (at least not without a lot of arguments, guilt tripping, and general pissyness), so no secret something's not quite right upstairs.

If it were me, I wouldn't touch that, if only because odds are it's the friend who'd suffer for it.

May 10, 2016#80

CynicismKills

I wonder, if Disney keeps Evans on for more Cap, if they'll do one of his other various costumes/names since he left his shield and the US behind.

May 10, 2016#81

Hailey Knight

Charlie Don't Surf said:
you are projecting a whole lot of weird misogyny and weird mental health armchair diagnoses onto this woman for not liking the same costumed superheroes as you, and I'm afraid to tug at that thread

Why do you think he's basing all of that on the first sentence? These are people he knows in real life; he's mentioned them often.[DOUBLEPOST=1462897740,1462897706][/DOUBLEPOST]

CynicismKills said:
I wonder, if Disney keeps Evans on for more Cap, if they'll do one of his other various costumes/names since he left his shield and the US behind.

I'm pretty sure he's getting a new shield. He's in the vibranium world capital now.

May 10, 2016#82

CynicismKills

Yeah I thought of that after posting. He could easily get a new shield made, but would he want to be Captain America at that point? Representing a country that's basically made him a traitor? He's had other names and at this point is just Steve Rogers, so changing the name could make for an interesting subplot.

May 10, 2016#83

GasBandit

Charlie Don't Surf said:
you are projecting a whole lot of weird misogyny and weird mental health armchair diagnoses onto this woman for not liking the same costumed superheroes as you, and I'm afraid to tug at that thread

This is not an isolated incident, and I'm also not good at communicating things like the fervor in her voice and the gleam in her eye. I had to bite back a "Jeez, did a guy in a Captain America costume touch you inappropriately when you were little?" in the conversation. It was wayyyyy too emphatic an opinion to hold about the topic.

But yeah, she's fucking coo-coo for cocoa puffs for other reasons too, and I've gone into that in other threads.

May 10, 2016#84

Hailey Knight

CynicismKills said:
Yeah I thought of that after posting. He could easily get a new shield made, but would he want to be Captain America at that point? Representing a country that's basically made him a traitor? He's had other names and at this point is just Steve Rogers, so changing the name could make for an interesting subplot.

Considering his next movies are Avengers 3 and 4, I don't think we have time for subplots like that. In Winter Soldier, he was made a criminal/traitor, but he stuck to being Captain America because he's not representing America's government, he's representing America's ideals.

Something I just thought of--we never get the public's perspective in this movie, only that of the world governments. At the end of The Avengers, we see how people feel about these superheroes, in Avengers 2 we see civilians being rescued, in Winter Soldier we see ordinary people inspired to resist because of Cap, but in Civil War we don't really know how the public feels, except that they believe Bucky was responsible for the explosion in Vienna. So we have no idea how public perception is over all this stuff and for all we know, they're not as critical of the Avengers as the governments are being, except for the two people in the movie we know to be pissed because their families died in that collateral damage.

Which would really make all this shit just a powerplay by the governments and not really representing the will of the people they represent. So, you know, like real life.

May 10, 2016#85

CynicismKills

It's possible he could have some screen time in Black Panther since he's hiding out in Wakanda.

May 10, 2016#86

Charlie Don't Surf

GasBandit said:
coo-coo for cocoa puffs .

is this the place to start condemning and insulting people for strong opinions about superhero movies? have you read all the angry fan fiction in the DC thread?
it's also kinda shitty to throw around all these "crazy" perjoratives that kinda keep stigmatizing actual, real mental health concerns

now if you're a licensed psychiatrist and diagnosed her out of the DSM and set her up with a therapist, I retract everything above

May 10, 2016#87

GasBandit

Charlie Don't Surf said:
is this the place to start condemning and insulting people for strong opinions about superhero movies? have you read all the angry fan fiction in the DC thread?
it's also kinda shitty to throw around all these "crazy" perjoratives that kinda keep stigmatizing actual, real mental health concerns

now if you're a licensed psychiatrist and diagnosed her out of the DSM and set her up with a therapist, I retract everything above

You're also coo-coo for cocoa puffs.

May 10, 2016#88

Hailey Knight

Civil War's opening weekend tops Batman vs Superman. Not a factoid I care about weighing for film's quality (it's going to make more money than Winter Soldier, which I still say is the stronger and more cohesive film), but at least puts that to rest. In any case, it'll likely be one of the top earners for the year, but we got a Star Wars movie coming out this December and I could see that being the year's biggest release.

Spider-man: Homecoming is going to be huge. Hopefully it's also a good movie. I'm not worried about performances, but I am a little bit about the main people making the movie. The writer is the guy behind Vacation and Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs 2 (which isn't bad per se, but I didn't think it was as good as the first one). The director is pretty new as far as feature length films go. For some reason I thought Clown was directed by Eli Roth; now I'm curious to check it out and get a glimpse of this guy's style.

For the most part, Marvel has been good about picking who is doing each movie (Thor 2 aside; a Game of Thrones person was probably not the best person for that material) so they must have their reasons. For how long they've been wanting to get Spider-man back, they wouldn't just hand him over to people they thought would screw things up. Plus, pretty sure the Russo brothers will be overseeing. Hopefully it'll be good.

May 10, 2016#89

CynicismKills

The Russos have really been knocking it out of the park with Marvel, so I'm excited for anything they get their hands on at this point.

May 10, 2016#90

Hailey Knight

I'm glad to be hearing reviews where people appreciate the level of detail put into this movie. Each scene they give attention to the different characters, how they would be acting and speaking and so on, about their issues from other movies (like Tony explaining why he's not with Pepper right now; he said he'd quit, then he didn't). Before seeing it I was worried it'd be like X-Men where a lot of characters just end up standing in the background of shots, not really having a place or personality aside from when it's called on, but Civil War balances and makes use of. Like I said on page 1, the movie is so stuffed that it's easy to miss things.

Side-note, I know people going on about how the sunlight shines off of Chris Evans's muscles in the helicopter scene, but damn, his face when he's a pallbearer at Peggy's funeral. Goddamn.

May 10, 2016#91

CynicismKills

Emotions were portrayed pretty well through silence in this movie. Steve's face at Peggy's funeral, and Tony's as he watches the video of Bucky killing his parents.

In fact, that whole scene with Tony out for Bucky's blood is just amazing. Downey killed it.

May 10, 2016#92

Sara_2814

Charlie Don't Surf said:
you are projecting a whole lot of weird misogyny and weird mental health armchair diagnoses onto this woman for not liking the same costumed superheroes as you, and I'm afraid to tug at that thread

LOL, "misogyny".

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

(There's a disturbing trend for privileged SJWs to throw the label of "misogyny" onto any stupid shit--"There's no whipped cream on my latte! The barista was male! Misogyny!", which dilutes the power of the word, which in turn harms women who are victims of real misogyny. But that's a whole different rant.)

Criticizing a woman for controlling behavior towards her spouse is most definitely not misogyny. If a man said he hated the characters seen as the ultimate symbols of good in their respective universes because they were "too good", and also micromanaged and dictated his wife's participation in hobbies/interests, he'd be considered "not right upstairs". Controlling behavior is not okay, no matter the gender, and coupling that with a disdain for "good" could set off a few alarm bells.

It's also normal in English for someone to use "crazy" or "not right in the head" to casually comment on someone's actions, while not intending to literally make a medical diagnosis. People have beliefs/behaviors/etc. that don't fall under a mental health diagnosis. Not every usage of "crazy" refers to a mental health issue. People say I'm crazy because I like to drive my Subaru around orange cones in a field as fast as I can. And maybe I'm wrong--I'll defer to our resident mental health experts--but I seriously doubt "RallyCross Driver" has a listing in the DSM. So accusing Gas of trying to medically diagnose this woman when he is obviously making a casual comment on her behaviors is either dishonest or ignorant, depending on your motive for accusing him of it.

May 10, 2016#93

Bubble181

You're crazy for trying to discuss rationally with Charlie

May 10, 2016#94

GasBandit

Bubble181 said:
You're crazy for trying to discuss rationally with Charlie

Everybody's gotta try it once. To get it out of their system. Give it the ol' college try before they give up and join the legions of "STFU Charlie." Even I did.

May 10, 2016#95

Sara_2814

Bubble181 said:
You're crazy for trying to discuss rationally with Charlie

Yeah, well, referring to me as crazy (or criticizing anything I do or say) makes you a misogynist. So there!

May 10, 2016#96

Hailey Knight

This used to be a nice thread.

May 10, 2016#97

CynicismKills

I miss when we could have discussion threads without playing "Who's More Offensive."

May 10, 2016#98

Dave

Sara_2814 said:
Yeah, well, referring to me as crazy (or criticizing anything I do or say) makes you a misogynist. So there!

All your posts are so much better with a Slappy voice.

May 10, 2016#99

Sara_2814

I apologize for the thread hijacking. The diluting of the meaning of misogyny just really pisses me off.

May 10, 2016#100

GasBandit

CynicismKills said:
I miss when we could have discussion threads without playing "Who's More Offensive."

I don't remember that time

May 11, 2016#101

Charlie Don't Surf

internalized misogyny is the worst kind

May 11, 2016#102

strawman

Today children we are going to practise the THINK process regarding online commentary. Before you post something, reread it and ask yourself:

Is it True?
Is it Helpful?
Is it Inspiring?
Is it Necessary?
Is it Kind?

Some people believe you only need one of these to post a comment, but most people seem to prefer 2-3 of these to be true for their comments, and rarely you'll find someone who doesn't post unless all conditions are met.

Let's process a recent post through this filter:

Charlie Don't Surf said:
internalized misogyny is the worst kind

Is it true?

Well, here we run into a problem, because some people's definition differ. The dictionary says a misogynist is one who hates, holds in contempt, or has an ingrained prejudice against all women. Others believe any slight to any specific woman is misogyny regardless of their general behavior towards women as a whole. We can't tell one way or the other, and have to give the poster the benefit of the doubt that they believe what they're saying to be true, despite their lack of psychiatry degree or intimate knowledge of the person they are speaking of. To the poster, this may be true, but likely to the audience it is not.

Is it helpful?

No, this comment doesn't produce any sort of information one can positively act on, isn't a service, or improves the life of another.

Is it inspiring?

No, quite the opposite.

Is it necessary?

There is nothing about this discussion that suggest this comment is required, so no.

Is it kind?

It isn't kind, and isn't even meant or written kindly.

So this post is, at best, a level one THINK comment - and that only in the poster's mind. Considering their audience this is likely less than level one. Some people feel this is ok, but I would caution anyone who doesn't follow at least 2 or 3 of the criteria that they are liable to be viewed as rude, inconsiderate, or intentionally mean. This may be ok for some, but it generally drives others away and results in a crushing sense of loneliness as others abandon them.

May 11, 2016#103

ThatNickGuy

So where do you guys think Marvel will go from here? A couple of threads I thought need pulling:

Spider-Man's solo movie is called Homecoming, which was also one of the codewords that brainwashed The Winter Soldier. Think that's a coincidence or they have something planned?

Cap, Bucky, and others are now in Wakanda. Will they play a role in Black Panther's solo movie? Heck, where do they go from here with Panther since he basically got his origin in this movie?

Who else hopes that, in order to bring them all back together, someone - hopefully Cap - will shout "AVENGERS ASSEMBLE!" finally. After that tease at the end of Age of Ultron. I imagine that will be part of the story for the first part of Infinity War.

May 11, 2016#104

strawman

I'm of the opinion that the code words relate only to Bucky. Interestingly, the Russian phrase for homecoming tends more towards "return to homeland" - so rather than a familial, comfortable return to loved ones, it's more a patriotic return to a nation. This analysis is interesting:

http://kryptaria.tumblr.com/post/144068680650/winter-soldier-reprogramming-definitive-version

May 11, 2016#105

bhamv3

ThatNickGuy said:
So where do you guys think Marvel will go from here? A couple of threads I thought need pulling:

Spider-Man's solo movie is called Homecoming, which was also one of the codewords that brainwashed The Winter Soldier. Think that's a coincidence or they have something planned?

Cap, Bucky, and others are now in Wakanda. Will they play a role in Black Panther's solo movie? Heck, where do they go from here with Panther since he basically got his origin in this movie?

Who else hopes that, in order to bring them all back together, someone - hopefully Cap - will shout "AVENGERS ASSEMBLE!" finally. After that tease at the end of Age of Ultron. I imagine that will be part of the story for the first part of Infinity War.

I think (or even hope) that Cap and Bucky don't have a role in the Black Panther movie, or are just very minor supporting roles at best. Otherwise they'd steal the spotlight from T'Challa. Ulysses Klaw's already been introduced in the MCU, so I wouldn't be surprised if he's the antagonist. My guess is that the basic premise will be that Klaw's going after more of the Vibranium, and T'Challa will have to stop him.

And surely everyone's going to come back for the fight against Thanos (barring any deaths along the way). If Cap does shout "Avengers assemble" somewhere along the line, I'd hope it's in the final conflict, when everything seems lost, and he utters an inspiring rally cry that drives his allies forward for one last push. Man, I can imagine that scene.

Also, it wouldn't surprise me if Infinity War 1 and 2 have mostly different sets of protagonists, due to the superhero bloat in the MCU right now. So, for example, part 1 involves the more "grounded" heroes, like Cap and Iron Man and the rest of the human Avengers. Part 2 is when things get kicked up a notch, which would then require a more cosmic force to fight against Thanos. This is where the Guardians of the Galaxy, Dr. Strange, and the Asgardians get involved.

May 11, 2016#106

ThatNickGuy

bhamv3 said:
I think (or even hope) that Cap and Bucky don't have a role in the Black Panther movie, or are just very minor supporting roles at best. Otherwise they'd steal the spotlight from T'Challa. Ulysses Klaw's already been introduced in the MCU, so I wouldn't be surprised if he's the antagonist. My guess is that the basic premise will be that Klaw's going after more of the Vibranium, and T'Challa will have to stop him.

And surely everyone's going to come back for the fight against Thanos (barring any deaths along the way). If Cap does shout "Avengers assemble" somewhere along the line, I'd hope it's in the final conflict, when everything seems lost, and he utters an inspiring rally cry that drives his allies forward for one last push. Man, I can imagine that scene.

Also, it wouldn't surprise me if Infinity War 1 and 2 have mostly different sets of protagonists, due to the superhero bloat in the MCU right now. So, for example, part 1 involves the more "grounded" heroes, like Cap and Iron Man and the rest of the human Avengers. Part 2 is when things get kicked up a notch, which would then require a more cosmic force to fight against Thanos. This is where the Guardians of the Galaxy, Dr. Strange, and the Asgardians get involved.

I think I wrote about this before, but if I were writing at least the first Infinity War movie? It'd be a race. You mix and match various heroes and send them off in smaller teams after each of the Infinity Stones. Basically, it a race to collect them before Thanos does. And you do some interesting team-ups, like maybe Groot and Hulk, Rocket and Iron Man, Star-Lord and Cap, etc. Assuming they're including The Defenders, maybe Daredevil and Hawkeye (one's blind, one has hearing issues).

And at the end, they fail. Thanos slips the last stone into the Infinity Gauntlet, raises it victoriously...and everything fades to white as he rewrites reality. Credits.

The second movie is the original Infinity Gauntlet story (which started with Thanos already having the Gauntlet), done in an MCU manner.

May 11, 2016#107

strawman

ThatNickGuy said:
interesting team-ups, like maybe Groot and Hulk, Rocket and Iron Man, Star-Lord and Cap

I'd prefer team ups that involve polar opposites rather than people with similar abilities/skills/powers. I like watching waves crash...

May 11, 2016#108

ThatNickGuy

stienman said:
I'd prefer team ups that involve polar opposites rather than people with similar abilities/skills/powers. I like watching waves crash...

That's true, too. I thought Cap/Star-Lord might be interesting as two out-of-time guys. Hulk/Groot would only be interesting if MCU Hulk talked more.

May 11, 2016#109

sixpackshaker

The Aunt May most of you remember is what a 50 year old woman looked like in 1960.

May 11, 2016#110

Celt Z

I don't know if this is a spoiler, but I'm playing the DLC stages for Lego Marvel Avengers, and in the Black Panther stage, he is fighting Klaw and The Black Knight. Now, this could be just a coincidence and the characters they decided to use, but when Lego Marvel Superheroes was released, they made a point of using playable characters from all the upcoming movies, though a number of them hadn't be announced to the public yet.

May 11, 2016#111

CynicismKills

Klaw would be a good villain for Black Panther, being a Vibranium smuggler. He's a pretty powerful guy as he learns how to properly use his sonic weapon, at one point becoming living sound if I remember right.

I can't remember Black Knight all that well. I think he's a Captain Britain villain?

May 11, 2016#112

ScytheRexx

Don't think they would go with something as simple as a smuggling story.

Instead, they will have something in which Klaw uses his new vast wealth from Age of Ultron to try and take over the country, making his claim over the Vibranium easier and more legitimate, using someone else in the royal family as a pawn in the process of dethroning T'Challa. Two good options are his adopted brother, Hunter, or his half-brother, Jakarra

It would have T'Challa on the run using his incredible agility to uncover the plot while he runs from Klaws mercs and his own Hetut Zeraze through the jungles.

May 11, 2016#113

IronBrig4

There are several Black Knights in the Marvel Universe. The principal Black Knight is an on-again, off-again Avenger.

May 11, 2016#114

Celt Z

I should have said it is the Augustine du Lac Black Knight in the game, but then again that could mean nothing in the MCU.

May 11, 2016#115

ThatNickGuy

Celt Z said:
I don't know if this is a spoiler, but I'm playing the DLC stages for Lego Marvel Avengers, and in the Black Panther stage, he is fighting Klaw and The Black Knight. Now, this could be just a coincidence and the characters they decided to use, but when Lego Marvel Superheroes was released, they made a point of using playable characters from all the upcoming movies, though a number of them hadn't be announced to the public yet.

Squirrel Girl was in Lego Marvel Superheroes, too, but there's no Squirrel Girl movie.

Where's the Squirrel Girl movie, Celt?! WHERE'S THE SQUIRREL GIRL MOVIE?! HUH?!

...because I'd actually like to see that.

May 11, 2016#116

Hailey Knight

It only just dawned on me tonight that Spider-man could be in Avengers 3 and 4.

This all is so crazy. And for many of these movies to be good on top of all that is extra crazy.

May 11, 2016#117

Hailey Knight

I think it's funny that in some reviews I've seen, some people are bashing the conflict in this movie as "obviously Iron Man is right" and then others "obviously Captain America is right" and that both sides think their view is that clearly correct speaks to the strength of the movie's legislative conflict.

Of course by the end, it's much much deeper.

May 12, 2016#118

GasBandit

Well, speaking as a libertarian, obviously Cap is right

If he had to wait for the oversight committee to give its blessing, HydraSHIELD would have minigunned millions of Americans to death. And if SHIELD can be so thoroughly taken over by Hydra, who's to say the international committe couldn't be, even more easily?

May 12, 2016#119

Hailey Knight

And then you have Half in the Bag going "obviously Iron Man is right, these guys need to be put in check." Even just having the difference in point of view from audience informs on why there would be differences in point of view in the movie.

But yeah, I'm with you. Not just anyone, but Captain America being charge of it, I trust him.

May 12, 2016#120

Celt Z

ThatNickGuy said:
Squirrel Girl was in Lego Marvel Superheroes, too, but there's no Squirrel Girl movie.

Where's the Squirrel Girl movie, Celt?! WHERE'S THE SQUIRREL GIRL MOVIE?! HUH?!

...because I'd actually like to see that.

Ummm...well, it's...ah, the thing is.....look over there! It's Kevin Feige!

*flees*

May 12, 2016#121

sixpackshaker

The UN is already more corrupt than SHIELD.

May 12, 2016#122

GasBandit

May 12, 2016#123

evilmike

Saw a fun fan theory: "Their first team-up"

It's not completely perfect -- the kid looks a little young for the timeline, but the Stark Expo was held in Queens.

May 14, 2016#124

Zappit

Just saw it today.

Damn, it is just not a good time for Peggy Carter, is it?

May 14, 2016#125

Dave

Zappit said:
Just saw it today.

Damn, it is just not a good time for Peggy Carter, is it?

But it's great for her niece! Well, sort of.

May 15, 2016#126

Null

I love that they included the definitive Captain America speech, but had it delivered to, not by, Steve Rogers, and instead helping him to hold firm to his beliefs and act.

May 15, 2016#127

Frank

Damn, it only took 2 weeks for Civil War to beat BvS's worldwide box office and it's like 20 million from beating it's domestic take too.

May 15, 2016#128

ThatNickGuy

May 15, 2016#129

Null

It's amazing what having a coherent script, fully realized characters, and strong storytelling can do.

Also the comedy value of three jacked dudes in an old school Volkswagen Beetle is vastly underrated. "Can you move your seat up?" "No." And then this:

May 15, 2016#130

evilmike

Frank said:
Damn, it only took 2 weeks for Civil War to beat BvS's worldwide box office and it's like 20 million from beating it's domestic take too.

May 16, 2016#131

Null

It just occurred to me why Steve, by far the strongest of the pallbearers, seems to be having a much harder time carrying the coffin.

The other pallbearers are carrying a wooden coffin and a body.

Steve is carrying one of the foundations of his entire world.

May 16, 2016#132

ThatNickGuy

QUEENS

Though that does remind me of one minor nitpick or gripe for the movie: the location text taking up the entire screen. Am I the only one who found that mildly annoying? Why didn't they just use the usual tiny text in the corner?

May 16, 2016#133

ScytheRexx

ThatNickGuy said:
Though that does remind me of one minor nitpick or gripe for the movie: the location text taking up the entire screen. Am I the only one who found that mildly annoying? Why didn't they just use the usual tiny text in the corner?

They traveled all over the map in this movie. It reaches a point where even with the little text you kind of drown it out by some point and may not actually notice it the next time a big location change happens, which can leave the audience confused when it says they are in Vienna and then suddenly they are in Bucharest. I think they compensated for that by just making the location text become impossible to miss, so you know without a shadow of a doubt that they are somewhere else compared to a few moments ago.

May 16, 2016#134

Dave

I talked to quite a few people who were happy the location text was so large and frankly so was I. It wasn't distracting in the least to me.

May 16, 2016#135

Celt Z

Null said:
It just occurred to me why Steve, by far the strongest of the pallbearers, seems to be having a much harder time carrying the coffin.

The other pallbearers are carrying a wooden coffin and a body.

Steve is carrying one of the foundations of his entire world.

Why you gotta do this to me, Null?! :cry:

May 16, 2016#136

Null

Celt Z said:
Why you gotta do this to me, Null?!

I actually tweeted that one to Chris Evans. And yeah, it's right in the feels.

May 16, 2016#137

Hailey Knight

I just realized how monstrous the scope of Avengers 3 and 4 must be. We have Ant-Man and Wasp and later Captain Marvel coming out in between those movies, suggesting there's at least some passage of time between.

May 16, 2016#138

Null

I think it's also worth noting that Captain America: Civil War is significant for having three major black characters, without making a big deal that they're black. Rhodey is the most staunch supporter of the accords, because he's believed they (and Tony) needed oversight all the way back to Iron Man 2, and that fits with him being a devoted military man. Sam Wilson trusts Steve's leadership, but he wants Steve to be sure he's doing what he does for the right reasons, because as Sam reminds him, it's not just his neck on the block. He and Bucky being slightly antagonistic BFFs was a real treat, his fighting scenes were awesome - especially how versatile he used his wings, not to mention Redwing, a fantastic adaptation to what would have been a silly gimmick from the comics. And Chadwick Boseman as Black Panther was amazing. Majestic, dangerous, implacable, but also smart and self-controlled enough to keep his options open. When he finds out that Zemo, not Barnes, was behind the bombing that killed King T'Chaka, and saw how the cycle of revenge was destroying Earth's Mightiest Heroes, he stood down. It's all well and good to tell us a character is smart, it's all well and good to say they have certain attributes, but T'Challa showed it - intelligence, wisdom, and good judgement, by his actions.

May 16, 2016#139

Celt Z

I can't remember if I put it in my earlier post, but I love the addition of Anthony Mackie's Falcon. I wish they could have added him sooner.

May 16, 2016#140

Null

Celt Z said:
I can't remember if I put it in my earlier post, but I love the addition of Anthony Mackie's Falcon. I wish they could have added him sooner.

I wish he'd had more of a part in Age of Ultron, for sure.

May 16, 2016#141

ThatNickGuy

Cut the cheque!

(Hopefully, people have seen that special feature on the Winter Soldier bonus features to get that reference.)

May 17, 2016#142

GasBandit

May 18, 2016#143

Null

I just realized why Bucky lied to Steve in Bucharest.

Bucky lied because he wanted Steve to give up on him. He didn't want Steve to interfere and get hurt when the authorities came for him, because he didn't think he was worth saving.

Ow.

May 18, 2016#144

ScytheRexx

You know, there was one "revelation" that happened in Civil War that really comes out of left-field if you didn't watch Winter Soldier and really pay attention...

That Bucky was involved with the death of Tony Starks parents. When they watch the tape and Tony asks if Steve "knew", Steve says "I didn't know it was him." before Tony repeats himself with Steve admitting "Yes". For those that may not remember, in Winter Soldier, when Steve and Natasha head to the old SHIELD bunker and find the Zola computer, he stalls by telling them the story of HYDRA growing within SHIELD, and at one point he shows them a picture of Howard Stark's death and the line "accidents... will happen".

That single little blurb is the only reason Steve knew, since before that, Howard Stark's death was chalked up to a car accident since Iron Man 1. That one moment was the only lead up to Steve knowing about the murder, which is why when he admits to Tony that he "knew" about his parents it feels rather out of nowhere in the context of the movie.

May 18, 2016#145

CynicismKills

That whole scene was crazy good. It's the first time we really see Tony lose his cool, stop snarking and lay into someone. Every shot of his face and line of dialogue tells you just how betrayed and enraged he really is.

May 18, 2016#146

ScytheRexx

CynicismKills said:
That whole scene was crazy good. It's the first time we really see Tony lose his cool, stop snarking and lay into someone. Every shot of his face and line of dialogue tells you just how betrayed and enraged he really is.

Oh yeah, it was a great scene, it just probably came out of nowhere that suddenly Steve was privy to the whole murder thing. I think most people likely missed the little reference in the middle of Winter Soldier that showed exactly why he knew.

May 18, 2016#147

CynicismKills

Yeah, I wish I'd re-watched Winter Soldier before seeing Civil War.

May 18, 2016#148

evilmike

ThatNickGuy said:
Though that does remind me of one minor nitpick or gripe for the movie: the location text taking up the entire screen. Am I the only one who found that mildly annoying? Why didn't they just use the usual tiny text in the corner?

My only thought about the location text was that it was obvious that some of the film makers are fans of Movie Sins. Most of the location texts had enough information to identify the location, but no additional, redundant information -- "Bucharest" instead of "Bucharest, Romania"; "Queens" instead of Queens, New York; et cetera. This foils a common Movie Sins joke, "London, England in case you confused it with London, Ontario."

May 18, 2016#149

Celt Z

ScytheRexx said:
You know, there was one "revelation" that happened in Civil War that really comes out of left-field if you didn't watch Winter Soldier and really pay attention...

That Bucky was involved with the death of Tony Starks parents. When they watch the tape and Tony asks if Steve "knew", Steve says "I didn't know it was him." before Tony repeats himself with Steve admitting "Yes". For those that may not remember, in Winter Soldier, when Steve and Natasha head to the old SHIELD bunker and find the Zola computer, he stalls by telling them the story of HYDRA growing within SHIELD, and at one point he shows them a picture of Howard Stark's death and the line "sacrifices had to be made".

That single little blurb is the only reason Steve knew, since before that, Howard Stark's death was chalked up to a car accident since Iron Man 1. That one moment was the only lead up to Steve knowing about the murder, which is why when he admits to Tony that he "knew" about his parents it feels rather out of nowhere in the context of the movie.

Ah! Thank you! That was bugging both Mr. Z and myself. It's been a while since I watched Winter Soldier, so I forgot about that part.

May 18, 2016#150

GasBandit

I didn't realize people didn't know Steve Knew. I thought it was one of the big bombshell moments of Winter Soldier.

Scene in question:

May 18, 2016#151

ScytheRexx

Oops... Okay so the line was actually "accidents... will happen", which fits a lot better then what my memory was telling me. Same deal though.

Still, while it was a big moment for some of us, I don't think a general audience would have really hung on that little sequence about Howard Stark over the much larger revelation that "Holy shit HYDRA is inside SHIELD!". Much of my point is that in the context of Civil War as a whole, the revelation that Steve "knew" feels like it comes out of nowhere unless you watched Winter Soldier.

May 18, 2016#152

Celt Z

I think, at least from that sequence, I knew Howard had died via HYDRA, but not directly from Bucky. Also, I took it with a grain of salt since it also said they killed Nick Fury.

May 18, 2016#153

GasBandit

Celt Z said:
I think, at least from that sequence, I knew Howard had died via HYDRA, but not directly from Bucky. Also, I took it with a grain of salt since it also said they killed Nick Fury.

Well, at the time, they thought they had. This was before he was revealed to have faked his death, and it was Hydra assassins who attempted the hit.

May 18, 2016#154

Celt Z

I also didn't get to see Winter Soldier in the theater, so I already knew the A.o.S. spoiler before I saw the movie.

May 18, 2016#155

ScytheRexx

Celt Z said:
I think, at least from that sequence, I knew Howard had died via HYDRA, but not directly from Bucky. Also, I took it with a grain of salt since it also said they killed Nick Fury.

That is why in Civil War the first thing Steve said when Tony asked him was "I didn't know it was him." He knew HYDRA killed Tony's father from the encounter with Zola, but he didn't realize till the video that it was Bucky that carried out the hit. He was just as surprised as Tony in that regard.

The "yes" was that he knew, since Winter Soldier, that Tony's parents were murdered. Tony, up till the video, still thought his parents died in a car accident. It was entirely new to him, but not to Steve, since Zola showed him long ago. That is why the rage hit Tony so quickly, he lived all that time never knowing the truth, and he had it flung at him with the instrument of that act right next to him.

The letter at the end was Steve apologizing for not telling him about the murder sooner, bucky or no-bucky, he just didn't want Tony to know that his parents were murdered in cold blood, and he realized as a friend, he should have said something.

May 18, 2016#156

GasBandit

May 18, 2016#157

Hailey Knight

ScytheRexx said:
You know, there was one "revelation" that happened in Civil War that really comes out of left-field if you didn't watch Winter Soldier and really pay attention...

That Bucky was involved with the death of Tony Starks parents. When they watch the tape and Tony asks if Steve "knew", Steve says "I didn't know it was him." before Tony repeats himself with Steve admitting "Yes". For those that may not remember, in Winter Soldier, when Steve and Natasha head to the old SHIELD bunker and find the Zola computer, he stalls by telling them the story of HYDRA growing within SHIELD, and at one point he shows them a picture of Howard Stark's death and the line "accidents... will happen".

That single little blurb is the only reason Steve knew, since before that, Howard Stark's death was chalked up to a car accident since Iron Man 1. That one moment was the only lead up to Steve knowing about the murder, which is why when he admits to Tony that he "knew" about his parents it feels rather out of nowhere in the context of the movie.

I remember being surprised during Winter Soldier, but I totally forgot about that until now.

It didn't seem out of left field in Civil War anyway though. Tony asked Steve a question; Steve answered. I didn't wonder how Steve knew, I was just with Tony wondering if he knew.

I haven't seen anyone be confused by that moment in Civil War, but I'm going to guess you've seen them

. Glad you brought it up; just another thing I can appreciate in Civil War.

May 19, 2016#158

Jax

I've seen a lot of people being surprised about that revelation, despite having seen Winter Soldier.

Even with the explanation, it's no wonder why many people went 'huh?' about the fact that Steve "knew". I mean, in Winter Soldier, all that is shown (in a timeframe of about 15 seconds) is that Zola suggests that Hydra was involved Howard Stark's death. Sure, it's an easy enough interpretation to imply what has happened, but it's not like this is definitive proof that Bucky killed Howard. It's just a conclusion that Steve apparently reached after connecting all the dots, and even he did not know for certain until he saw the same video that Tony saw (seeing as his first response was: "I didn't know it was him").

Sure, it makes sense now that we have time to go over it, but it's not strange that a lot of people had question marks on their faces about it during the movie (or even after).

May 19, 2016#159

Hailey Knight

Jax said:
I've seen a lot of people being surprised about that revelation, despite having seen Winter Soldier.

Even with the explanation, it's no wonder why many people went 'huh?' about the fact that Steve "knew". I mean, in Winter Soldier, all that is shown (in a timeframe of about 15 seconds) is that Zola suggests that Hydra was involved Howard Stark's death. Sure, it's an easy enough interpretation to imply what has happened, but it's not like this is definitive proof that Bucky killed Howard. It's just a conclusion that Steve apparently reached after connecting all the dots, and even he did not know for certain until he saw the same video that Tony saw (seeing as his first response was: "I didn't know it was him").

Sure, it makes sense now that we have time to go over it, but it's not strange that a lot of people had question marks on their faces about it during the movie (or even after).

But has anyone seen or interacted with someone who said they were confused at the time? Or is this just conjecture we're having? I've read and watched many more reviews than is healthy for a movie I'd already seen out of curiosity for how people were appreciating it (not enough!) and I don't mean just official ones. I'd never heard of someone being confused in that moment until Scythe's post. So again, have you guys encountered this or is it just a thing you're saying could happen, but was set up in a prior movie anyway? Because without that, it's a neat detail that everyone forgot, but wasn't necessarily confused about.

May 19, 2016#160

tegid

Steve also got the russian folder about Bucky from Black Widow at the end of Capt. America 2, didn't he?

May 19, 2016#161

Jax

Zero Esc said:
But has anyone seen or interacted with someone who said they were confused at the time? Or is this just conjecture we're having? I've read and watched many more reviews than is healthy for a movie I'd already seen out of curiosity for how people were appreciating it (not enough!) and I don't mean just official ones. I'd never heard of someone being confused in that moment until Scythe's post. So again, have you guys encountered this or is it just a thing you're saying could happen, but was set up in a prior movie anyway? Because without that, it's a neat detail that everyone forgot, but wasn't necessarily confused about.

Yes, I've actually seen and heard people being confused as to why Cap knew. And read plenty of reviews as well where people were stumbling on this particular point. When explained the reason, the general reaction was either "Ooooooh, so that was it!" or "uhmm okay, yes that must be it, I guess". They accept it because, well, it is plausible and no other explanation or reasoning is given. But in no way is it straight up proof that this is why Cap knew. All we do is infer and interpret reasons as to how Cap knew (or said that he knew).

The reason why this gets so much attention is that it directly divides Tony and Steve into opposite sides. If Steve didn't know, then he would be kind of a neutral party (not the Accords thing, but as friends. I mean, Tony went there to help Steve instead of arrest him, after all), trying to keep Tony and Bucky apart from each other. But he did, and for Tony that places Steve into enemy territory almost as much as Bucky. While Tony's still going after Bucky first and foremost, he doesn't shy away from dishing out a lot of hurt to Steve for keeping this secret (where he might've tried to just go around Steve or try to remove him from the battlefield if Steve didn't know). This is essentially the big plot twist of the movie, so it's not really surprising that people went 'but how did Cap know?'

May 19, 2016#162

Dave

I just love the precise placement and quality of the 1960's wilderness camera.

May 19, 2016#163

sixpackshaker

Dave said:
I just love the precise placement and quality of the 1960's wilderness camera.

And its ability to go from the top of the pole to inside the car and back.

May 19, 2016#164

ScytheRexx

Dave said:
I just love the precise placement and quality of the 1960's wilderness camera.

It was December 16, 1991.

Though yeah, I did quip to my friend "That is a very convenient camera out in the middle of nowhere. I wonder who owns it?"

Back on the whole knowing thing, all I am saying is that unless you watch a few quick seconds of Winter Soldier, that entire discussion seems out of nowhere. There are not any hints in Civil War about Steve knowing anything about the Stark murders, not a weird dream, not a discussion with Falcon about how he wished he told Tony the truth long ago, not even a little "almost convo" when Tony mentions how much his dad idolized Steve. Hell, even a scene after they capture him in the machine press, they could have Steve ask Bucky about things he learned during Winter Soldier and Bucky simply confirming them, which would make the interaction later feel more cohesive.

There is no build up to Steve knowing this huge secret, we just jump into the end and Steve says he knew. I talk with a lot of people that were extremely confused by that scene. "How did Steve know!?" So I just wanted to set the record straight on that info for people, here or elsewhere.

May 19, 2016#165

Dave

Yeah, because RDJ was that young in 1991. I know what the movie says but the years don't make any sense. I was joking about the 1960's stuff, obviously, but there's no way he was that young looking in 1991. He's older than I am. (By like 6 months...)

May 19, 2016#166

CynicismKills

I mean, it was over 20 years ago, and Stark is probably not as old as RDJ actually is. I would figure he's supposed to be closer to mid-40's at the oldest.

May 19, 2016#167

Dave

I guess it's because I'm old. The 1990's does not seem like they were 20 years ago. Still weird to have a camera in the wilderness that just HAPPENS to be at the right location for where they were going to crash, even if the crash was caused on purpose.

May 19, 2016#168

CynicismKills

Oh yeah, the camera is definitely a plot-convenient placement.

May 19, 2016#169

GasBandit

Dave said:
I guess it's because I'm old. The 1990's does not seem like they were 20 years ago.

That's not just you >_<

May 19, 2016#170

ScytheRexx

Dave said:
Yeah, because RDJ was that young in 1991. I know what the movie says but the years don't make any sense. I was joking about the 1960's stuff, obviously, but there's no way he was that young looking in 1991. He's older than I am. (By like 6 months...)

Of course RDJ was not that young back in 1991. The actors age does not automatically mean the characters age. That is why you have someone like Peter Parker as a high school kid played by a near 30 year old Andrew Garfield. I mean, go back and watch Ant-Man, how old would you say Scott Lang is? 35? Paul Rudd is in his late 40s getting close to 50 years old. The flashback was of Tony Stark back in 1991, not RDJ.

Based on the interactions of Tony and his parents, it seemed to me that Tony was supposed to be a deadbeat college age kid crashing with his parents because he has little drive in life. If we assume Civil War happens in 2016, then that is 25 years between 1991 and now. Even if we generously assume he was 20 in the flashback and not a bit older, that means he would be 45 as of Civil War, which fits just fine with RDJs general look on screen.

May 19, 2016#171

Shakey

They did a bunch of special effects on RDJ to make him look younger on screen. I wouldn't go by his actual age.

May 19, 2016#172

Charlie Don't Surf

where was nick fury

May 19, 2016#173

GasBandit

Charlie Don't Surf said:
where was nick fury

You mean in 1991, or in this movie?

May 19, 2016#174

CynicismKills

Far as I know he's still in hiding after Winter Soldier/Ultron. He doesn't even get mentioned much in Agents of SHIELD now.

May 19, 2016#175

ScytheRexx

CynicismKills said:
Far as I know he's still in hiding after Winter Soldier/Ultron. He doesn't even get mentioned much in Agents of SHIELD now.

You know with that Inhuman menace and Hives return, it might have been nice if Nick gave back the Hellicarrier that Coulson was building and hiding for him back in Season 2. THANKS A LOT NICK!

May 19, 2016#176

GasBandit

Civil War: Waifu Edition.

May 19, 2016#177

ScytheRexx

I like how they actually make the creative choice to make the Vision waifu red but make War Machine, Falcon, and Black Panther just as pasty as the others.

May 19, 2016#178

GasBandit

ScytheRexx said:
I like how they actually make the creative choice to make the Vision waifu red but just make War Machine, Falcon, and Black Panther just as pasty as the others.

In Japan, a red-colored android is more conceivable than a black person XD

May 19, 2016#179

Charlie Don't Surf

when is nick fury going to come back and talk to the avengers

May 19, 2016#180

Dave

Probably in the next Avengers movie, which I believe is Infinity War.

May 19, 2016#181

strawman

Samuel Jackson only has two more movies in his contract, and as of last year it hadn't been extended. His most recent comments suggest he'll be in the next two avengers movies - so we should see him in infinity war one and two, though I wouldn't be surprised to see a credits cameo here and there before then.

May 19, 2016#182

bhamv3

Even if Fury did show up in Civil War, what could he say that would make a difference?

"Hey Steve, knock it off with this teenage rebellion of yours, and sign the damn accords."
"Actually, Nick, don't you remember when SHIELD was taken over by Hydra? Right under your nose?"
"Oh yeah..."

"Hey Tony, quit it with the brown-nosing, you've got a decent brain on your shoulders, trust yourself to use it and do the right thing."
"Actually, Nick, don't you remember the last time I did that, you ended up having to save all our asses with an old helicarrier?"
"Oh yeah..."

"Hey Wanda, Vision's obviously got the hots for you, how about you give an android a shot, huh?"
"Actually, Nick, remember the last time we let a robotic life form do what he wanted? He turned Sokovia into a meteor."
"Oh yeah..."

"Hey Clint, I set you up in a nice, secret house in the middle of nowhere so that you could live in peace with your family. How about you go home?"
"Actually, Nick, remember how Wanda's brother sacrificed his life to save me? Do I look like the kind of guy who wouldn't repay that debt?"
"Oh yeah..."

"Hey T'Challa, your highness, how about you go back to Wakanda and not meddle in the affairs of the Avengers?"
"Actually, Nick, remember how my dad, the reigning monarch, was blown up in Vienna?"
"Oh yeah..."

"Hey Natasha, you've never been one to take sides and take a stand, why don't you just stay out of this?"
"Actually, Nick, remember how I dumped all of SHIELD's secrets, including my own, onto the Internet? I need friends now for backup."
"Oh yeah..."

"Hey Sam, help me out here, just stay out of this, won't you?"
"Actually, Nick, remember when I said I do everything Steve does, only slower?"
"Oh yeah..."

"Hey Rhodey, how about you and Stark back down, and stop this from getting any worse than it already is?"
"Actually, Nick, remember how I'm an air force officer and so I took an oath to obey my government?"
"Oh yeah..."

"Hey Vision, you love all life, how about you stay out of the fighting?"
"I am staying out of the fighting. Haven't you noticed I don't use force against anyone except as a last resort?"
"Oh yeah..."

"Hey kid, you're what, in high school? How about you go home and do your homework?"
"I finished my homework already."
"Oh yeah..."

"Hey Scott, you've finally shaken your stigma as a con, why would you get back into all this again? Trust me, just go home, it'll be better for you."
"Actually, Nick, Hank told me never to trust SHIELD."
"Who's Hank?"
"Hank Pym? Inventor of the Pym Particles?"
"Oh yeah..."

"Hey Bucky... actually, never mind, there's no way you're staying out of this."

May 20, 2016#183

Jax

At some press conference, they said Nick Fury and Maria Hill were doing something else at the time (something big even??), and that we'll see or hear in a later installment what that was.

May 22, 2016#184

GasBandit

Jun 26, 2017#185

evilmike

evilmike said:
Saw a fun fan theory: "Their first team-up"

It's not completely perfect -- the kid looks a little young for the timeline, but the Stark Expo was held in Queens.

Tom Holland is a fan of this theory, going so far to confirm it to the Huffington Post. (Though, according to io9, it doesn't sound like he had official approval to do this.)

Jun 26, 2017#186

Hailey Knight

Quality necro.

Jun 27, 2017#187

@Li3n

GasBandit said:
Civil War: Waifu Edition.

Leave it to Japan to do the reverse of US DC shows, and replace black people with gingers, but for the other company. We've come full circle.

Jun 27, 2017#188

@Li3n

GasBandit said:
In Japan, a red-colored android is more conceivable than a black person XD

The funny thing is, it wasn't always that way:

And i just realized that that cartoon had a Team Rocket with a fat human instead of a pokemon cat...

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