Cripes Israel, lay off a bit.

[Iaculus]

I want to know why - other than religious "OMFG THEY KILLED JEBUS!" arguments - people hate the Jewish. I've never understood it. I've also never been given a good explanation why Jews are considered a "race" when in fact it is a religious dogma.

In any event, the UN will never be effective until the veto powers of the "Big 5" are taken away and the UN is given real teeth to get stuff done. This will never happen as people want to keep their power base and a powerful UN would usurp their power at it's whim.

I think the UN is a great idea that was not thoroughly thought out.

I know, dead kitten, but this Wikipedia article (and those linked to it) is quite illustrative. A simplistic but broadly accurate way of describing it is that Jews are an ethnic group whose religion is a distinct part of their culture. Much of the prejudice towards them stems from them traditionally being a fairly insular culture with a typically excellent intracommunity education system, leading to them gettimg a disproportionate number of the really good jobs. Obviously, prejudice has exaggerated it, but that's the core of the matter.

 

[Icarus]

Much of the prejudice towards them stems from them traditionally being a fairly insular culture with a typically excellent intracommunity education system, leading to them gettimg a disproportionate number of the really good jobs. Obviously, prejudice has exaggerated it, but that's the core of the matter.

I think it's mostly the fact that to many people, a "Jew" is someone wearing black with a black hat - the orthodox Jew. Antwerp is full of them and they are generally a really unfriendly unlikable bunch. The American Jew is VERY VERY different from the European Jew - American Jews are much much more integrated.

A friend of mine lived there and I never got a friendly word out of ANY Jewish citizens there. I was treated as an outsider in my own country! If you treat everyone else like an outsider, why be surprised if they treat you the same? It's really many small things but when everyone dislikes you, you can't pretend there's no reason for it. Hell, they have their own schools, their own stores (they buy as little as possible out of other stores - another reason they're not liked since they contribute little to the economy). For example, at the turn of the century (18-19th century), many banks were in hands of rich Jewish families who were responsible for kicking MANY poor families out in the street. They showed zero compassion for anyone who wasn't Jewish and people don't forget that.

It's sad for the Jewish people who really have blend in with the rest of the community. I know many Jewish girls myself and I get along with them very well - hell, they all condemn what Israël is doing as well. The modern Jew is no different than any other person. But it's the traditional Jew who wants to stick to his own community, who doesn't mingle with anyone else, who works for other Jews, who only goes to Jewish restaurants, to Jewish schools, Jewish stores, etc. Integration is the key and as long as you want to hold on to every aspect of your culture while treating everyone else as not worthy of your attention ... well you're asking for it.

 

[GasBandit]

I might be misremembering, but I think I read something about how most of it got started back when Judaism didn't see a problem with lending money with interest, while other religions did. Hence, the Jewish banks.

 

[Icarus]

I might be misremembering, but I think I read something about how most of it got started back when Judaism didn't see a problem with lending money with interest, while other religions did. Hence, the Jewish banks.

It was especially the cold-blooded nature of these banks that people disliked. Banks are known to be cold these days, but 100 years ago there were no supermarkets, megastores, etc. People bought stuff in the shop on the corner of the street. If you didn't have a lot of money, you often got free stuff or left overs. These shops were personal and they knew everyone. But the bank ... the bank was always cold and impersonal. They didn't care about the human aspect and people would get kicked out on the street if they missed a payment. And guess who owned nearly all banks? They were also known to charge very high interest rates for people who desperately needed money.

 

So it's a money issue? That seems kind of...stupid. "You greedy bastards! I'm going to kill every last one of you!"

Seems extreme to me.

 

[Armadillo]

I have nothing against the Jewish faith or the practitioners of it, but to a one, every single Jewish person I've known (and I've known quite a few) was stuck-up, arrogant, and overall kind of a jerk/bitch. I can't imagine the faith itself is responsible for that; maybe I've just had a bad sampling?

 

[Yoink]

So it's a money issue? That seems kind of...stupid. "You greedy bastards! I'm going to kill every last one of you!"

Seems extreme to me.

mankind isn´t mostly known for smart reasoning

 

[Troll]

I have nothing against the Jewish faith or the practitioners of it, but to a one, every single Jewish person I've known (and I've known quite a few) was stuck-up, arrogant, and overall kind of a jerk/bitch. I can't imagine the faith itself is responsible for that; maybe I've just had a bad sampling?

Yes.

 

[JCM]

So it's a money issue? That seems kind of...stupid. "You greedy bastards! I'm going to kill every last one of you!"

Seems extreme to me.

Sadly, its true. Take it from someone who has been in one such Islamic religious school, they blame every form of corruption of mind though media on the Jews and say that the Jews want to enslave the Muslims to get money from us.

Heck, one of the uztaz (teacher) there actually told us it was haram (prohibited) to buy Jewish books (aka american books) because we´d be giving Jews money, instead we should buy only from poor Muslim countries.

And just when I thought this was probably an isolated case, I heard the same repeated by the ex-prime minister of Malaysia, Dr Mahathir Mohammed, and also by users from all Muslim forums I used to frequent.

To top it off, back when I was a Catholic, I heard the same said at Bible class. *sigh*

While the current missiles is due to Isreal´s backing off its promise, I can bet you 90% of the arabs there wouldnt mind seeing every Jew dead, and that me being kind.

I have nothing against the Jewish faith or the practitioners of it, but to a one, every single Jewish person I've known (and I've known quite a few) was stuck-up, arrogant, and overall kind of a jerk/bitch. I can't imagine the faith itself is responsible for that; maybe I've just had a bad sampling?

Yes.

Yes.

My ex-in laws were Jewish and the kindest people I know, and I exchange emails with a writer in Israel who himself hates the Israeli violation of human rights, not to mention I´ve had several great teachers and met several people in my travels who were Jewish, and not once did I get treated badly.

Sadly the only rude people I met in 17 countries were Argentinians, a Texan and some Malays who didnt accept the fact that I had converted to Islam, yet read "unholy" books.

I didnt read the thread. And now Ive been shown to have bias and nobody agrees with me, I´ll just write blabber others must be juvenile to avoid the fact that I am wrong and have a bias worse than a suicide bomber´s
oh, and UN BASE BAAAD! US GOOOD!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Pathetic X3

 

[Armadillo]

I have nothing against the Jewish faith or the practitioners of it, but to a one, every single Jewish person I've known (and I've known quite a few) was stuck-up, arrogant, and overall kind of a jerk/bitch. I can't imagine the faith itself is responsible for that; maybe I've just had a bad sampling?

Yes.

I know, I know. I don't automatically assign those characteristics to every Jew on Earth; that would just be silly. All I said is that's been my experience.

Granted, I did go to a private high school. Jerks abound.

 

[JCM]

I have nothing against the Jewish faith or the practitioners of it, but to a one, every single Jewish person I've known (and I've known quite a few) was stuck-up, arrogant, and overall kind of a jerk/bitch. I can't imagine the faith itself is responsible for that; maybe I've just had a bad sampling?

Yes.

I know, I know. I don't automatically assign those characteristics to every Jew on Earth; that would just be silly. All I said is that's been my experience.

Granted, I did go to a private high school. Jerks abound.

Amen

 

[Iaculus]

I have nothing against the Jewish faith or the practitioners of it, but to a one, every single Jewish person I've known (and I've known quite a few) was stuck-up, arrogant, and overall kind of a jerk/bitch. I can't imagine the faith itself is responsible for that; maybe I've just had a bad sampling?

Yes.

I know, I know. I don't automatically assign those characteristics to every Jew on Earth; that would just be silly. All I said is that's been my experience.

Granted, I did go to a private high school. Jerks abound.

... Sometimes, I get the feeling that I must have been the only person on the planet to go to a private school where most of my year were moderately decent souls. Well, apart from everyone else in that year-group, obviously.

 

[North_Ranger]

Well, I've read some about Jewish persecution in Europe. Some of the reasons along the years seem to have been:
1.) Money
It was considered a sin to take interest for lent money for Christians. The Jewish had no such religious ban, so they could lend money on interest - which in Christian Europe raised ires.

2.) Scapegoats
In the Middle Ages, Jews were often blamed for various catastrophes, both remote and local. The plague hit the city? Blame the Jews. And when charismatic leaders began to gather laymen to go and free Jerusalem from the Muslims, many of such spontaneous groups dissolved into looting and pillaging Jewish holdings, as well as killing Jews.

3.) Urban legends
I forget the date, but in the 15th century in Germany there were claims and rumors of Jews practising horrendous blood rites, usually involving killing and drinking the blood of a Christian child. These were mostly local, but they resulted in bloodshed nonetheless - Jews were killed "in retaliation".

4.) Cuius regio, eius religio
During the Reformation and Counter-Reformation, this idea of "Whose realm, his religion" also put pressures on Jews, since they oftentimes refused to convert. However, it was already in the 1480s and 1490s when for instance the Spanish Inquisition insisted on consolidating the new Spanish state, formed by the marriage of Ferdinand of Aragon and Isabella of Castile, by banishing the tradition of co-existence between Jews, Christians and Muslims. As a result, Jews were banished from Spain and conversos (Jews who had converted into Christiniaty) came under scrutiny. A converso could become under suspicion of secretly practising Judaism through different means: if the family had dressed in finer clothes on Friday evening in preparation for Sabbath, for instance.

 

[JCM]

Well, I've read some about Jewish persecution in Europe. Some of the reasons along the years seem to have been:
1.) Money
It was considered a sin to take interest for lent money for Christians. The Jewish had no such religious ban, so they could lend money on interest - which in Christian Europe raised ires.

2.) Scapegoats
In the Middle Ages, Jews were often blamed for various catastrophes, both remote and local. The plague hit the city? Blame the Jews. And when charismatic leaders began to gather laymen to go and free Jerusalem from the Muslims, many of such spontaneous groups dissolved into looting and pillaging Jewish holdings, as well as killing Jews.

3.) Urban legends
I forget the date, but in the 15th century in Germany there were claims and rumors of Jews practising horrendous blood rites, usually involving killing and drinking the blood of a Christian child. These were mostly local, but they resulted in bloodshed nonetheless - Jews were killed "in retaliation".

4.) Cuius regio, eius religio
During the Reformation and Counter-Reformation, this idea of "Whose realm, his religion" also put pressures on Jews, since they oftentimes refused to convert. However, it was already in the 1480s and 1490s when for instance the Spanish Inquisition insisted on consolidating the new Spanish state, formed by the marriage of Ferdinand of Aragon and Isabella of Castile, by banishing the tradition of co-existence between Jews, Christians and Muslims. As a result, Jews were banished from Spain and conversos (Jews who had converted into Christiniaty) came under scrutiny. A converso could become under suspicion of secretly practising Judaism through different means: if the family had dressed in finer clothes on Friday evening in preparation for Sabbath, for instance.

Lets not also forget that the Bible and the Koran also warn against Jews, and their traditions have always taught them in the past that Jews were evil/bad/to be avoided/traitors.

An interesting site I found (no Islamic persecution listed, but believe me, it was just as bad)

Persecution of Jews by Roman Pagans:
bullet 70: The Roman Army destroyed Jerusalem, killed over 1 million Jews, took about 100,000 into slavery and captivity, and scattered many from Palestine to other locations in the Roman Empire.
bullet 113: Jews in Cyprus, Cyrene, Egypt and Mesopotamia revolted against the Roman Empire. This caused "the death of several hundreds of thousands of Romans and Jews." 1
bullet 132: Bar Kochba led a hopeless three-year revolt against the Roman Empire. Many Jews had accepted him as the Messiah. About a half-million Jews were killed; thousands were sold into slavery or taken into captivity. The rest were exiled from Palestine and scattered throughout the known world, adding to what is now called the "Diaspora." Judaism was no longer recognized as a legal religion. 2
bullet 135: Serious Roman persecution of the Jews began. They were forbidden, upon pain of death, from practicing circumcision, reading the Torah, eating unleavened bread at Passover, etc. A temple dedicated to the Roman pagan god Jupiter was erected on temple mountain in Jerusalem. A temple of Venus was built on Golgotha, just outside the city.
bullet 200: Roman Emperor Severus forbade religious conversions to Judaism.

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Sponsored link:

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Persecution of Jews by Christians:

Initial persecution of Jews was along religious lines. Persecution would cease if the person converted to Christianity.
306: The church Synod of Elvira banned marriages, sexual intercourse and community contacts between Christians and Jews. 3,4
315: Constantine published the Edict of Milan which extended religious tolerance to Christians. Jews lost many rights with this edict. They were no longer permitted to live in Jerusalem, or to proselytize.
325: The Council of Nicea decided to separate the celebration of Easter from the Jewish Passover. They stated: "For it is unbecoming beyond measure that on this holiest of festivals we should follow the customs of the Jews. Henceforth let us have nothing in common with this odious people...We ought not, therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews...our worship follows a...more convenient course...we desire dearest brethren, to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the Jews...How, then, could we follow these Jews, who are almost certainly blinded."
bullet 337: Christian Emperor Constantius created a law which made the marriage of a Jewish man to a Christian punishable by death.
bullet 339: Converting to Judaism became a criminal offense.
bullet 343-381: The Laodicean Synod approved Cannon XXXVIII: "It is not lawful [for Christians] to receive unleavened bread from the Jews, nor to be partakers of their impiety." 5
bullet 367 - 376: St. Hilary of Poitiers referred to Jews as a perverse people who God has cursed forever. St. Ephroem refers to synagogues as brothels.
bullet 379-395: Emperor Theodosius the Great permitted the destruction of synagogues if it served a religious purpose. Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire at this time.
bullet 380: The bishop of Milan was responsible for the burning of a synagogue; he referred to it as "an act pleasing to God."
bullet 415: The Bishop of Alexandria, St. Cyril, expelled the Jews from that Egyptian city.
bullet 415: St. Augustine wrote "The true image of the Hebrew is Judas Iscariot, who sells the Lord for silver. The Jew can never understand the Scriptures and forever will bear the guilt for the death of Jesus."
bullet 418: St. Jerome, who created the Vulgate translation of the Bible wrote of a synagogue: "If you call it a brothel, a den of vice, the Devil's refuge, Satan's fortress, a place to deprave the soul, an abyss of every conceivable disaster or whatever you will, you are still saying less than it deserves."
bullet 489 - 519: Christian mobs destroyed the synagogues in Antioch, Daphne (near Antioch) and Ravenna.
bullet 528: Emperor Justinian (527-564) passed the Justinian Code. It prohibited Jews from building synagogues, reading the Bible in Hebrew, assemble in public, celebrate Passover before Easter, and testify against Christians in court. 3
bullet 535: The "Synod of Claremont decreed that Jews could not hold public office or have authority over Christians." 3
bullet 538: The 3rd and 4th Councils of Orleans prohibited Jews from appearing in public during the Easter season. Canon XXX decreed that "From the Thursday before Easter for four days, Jews may not appear in the company of Christians." 5 Marriages between Christians and Jews were prohibited. Christians were prohibited from converting to Judaism. 4
bullet 561: The bishop of Uzes expelled Jews from his diocese in France.
bullet 612: Jews were not allowed to own land, to be farmers or enter certain trades.
bullet 613: Very serious persecution began in Spain. Jews were given the options of either leaving Spain or converting to Christianity. Jewish children over 6 years of age were taken from their parents and given a Christian education
bullet 692: Cannnon II of the Quinisext Council stated: "Let no one in the priestly order nor any layman eat the unleavened bread of the Jews, nor have any familiar intercourse with them, nor summon them in illness, nor receive medicines from them, nor bathe with them; but if anyone shall take in hand to do so, if he is a cleric, let him be deposed, but if a layman, let him be cut off." 5
bullet 694: The 17th Church Council of Toledo, Spain defined Jews as the serfs of the prince. This was based, in part, on the beliefs by Chrysostom, Origen, Jerome, and other Church Fathers that God punished the Jews with perpetual slavery because of their responsibility for the execution of Jesus. 5
bullet 722: Leo III outlawed Judaism. Jews were baptized against their will.
bullet 855: Jews were exiled from Italy
bullet 1050: The Synod of Narbonne prohibited Christians from living in the homes of Jews.
bullet 1078: "Pope Gregory VII decreed that Jews could not hold office or be superiors to Christians." 6
bullet 1078: The Synod of Gerona forced Jews to pay church taxes
bullet 1096: The First Crusade was launched in this year. Although the prime goal of the crusades was to liberate Jerusalem from the Muslims, Jews were a second target. As the soldiers passed through Europe on the way to the Holy Land, large numbers of Jews were challenged: "Christ-killers, embrace the Cross or die!" 12,000 Jews in the Rhine Valley alone were killed in the first Crusade. This behavior continued for 8 additional crusades until the 9th in 1272.
bullet 1099: The Crusaders forced all of the Jews of Jerusalem into a central synagogue and set it on fire. Those who tried to escape were forced back into the burning building.
bullet 1121: Jews were exiled from Flanders (now part of present-day Belgium)
bullet 1130: Some Jews in London allegedly killed a sick man. The Jewish people in the city were required to pay 1 million marks as compensation.
bullet 1146: The Second Crusade began. A French Monk, Rudolf, called for the destruction of the Jews.
bullet 1179: Canon 24 of the Third Lateran Council stated: "Jews should be slaves to Christians and at the same time treated kindly due of humanitarian considerations." Canon 26 stated that "the testimony of Christians against Jews is to be preferred in all causes where they use their own witnesses against Christians." 7
bullet 1180: The French King of France, Philip Augustus, arbitrarily seized all Jewish property and expelled the Jews from the country. There was no legal justification for this action. They were allowed to sell all movable possessions, but their land and houses were stolen by the king.
bullet 1189: Jews were persecuted in England. The Crown claimed all Jewish possessions. Most of their houses were burned.

 

[Iaculus]

Well, I've read some about Jewish persecution in Europe. Some of the reasons along the years seem to have been:
1.) Money
It was considered a sin to take interest for lent money for Christians. The Jewish had no such religious ban, so they could lend money on interest - which in Christian Europe raised ires.

2.) Scapegoats
In the Middle Ages, Jews were often blamed for various catastrophes, both remote and local. The plague hit the city? Blame the Jews. And when charismatic leaders began to gather laymen to go and free Jerusalem from the Muslims, many of such spontaneous groups dissolved into looting and pillaging Jewish holdings, as well as killing Jews.

3.) Urban legends
I forget the date, but in the 15th century in Germany there were claims and rumors of Jews practising horrendous blood rites, usually involving killing and drinking the blood of a Christian child. These were mostly local, but they resulted in bloodshed nonetheless - Jews were killed "in retaliation".

4.) Cuius regio, eius religio
During the Reformation and Counter-Reformation, this idea of "Whose realm, his religion" also put pressures on Jews, since they oftentimes refused to convert. However, it was already in the 1480s and 1490s when for instance the Spanish Inquisition insisted on consolidating the new Spanish state, formed by the marriage of Ferdinand of Aragon and Isabella of Castile, by banishing the tradition of co-existence between Jews, Christians and Muslims. As a result, Jews were banished from Spain and conversos (Jews who had converted into Christiniaty) came under scrutiny. A converso could become under suspicion of secretly practising Judaism through different means: if the family had dressed in finer clothes on Friday evening in preparation for Sabbath, for instance.

Lets not also forget that the Bible and the Koran also warn against Jews, and their traditions have always taught them in the past that Jews were evil/bad/to be avoided/traitors.

Wait, what?

 

[Espy]

Lets not also forget that the Bible and the Koran also warn against Jews, and their traditions have always taught them in the past that Jews were evil/bad/to be avoided/traitors.

Wait, what?

Wait, what?

 

[JCM]

The bible could be used to imply that the Jewish nation will/should be blamed (and probably was used, again, look at the list above of persecution)-
* Matthew 27:25
* Mark 2:6 , 16; 3:6; 15:10
* Luke 23:4, 14, 20, 22, 25
* John 8:44
* 1 Thessalonians 2:15ff

And - 1 Thessalonians 2:15ff . The whole paragraph reads:

We also constantly give thanks to God for this, that when you received the word of God that you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word but as what it really is, God’s word, which is also at work in you believers. For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you suffered the same things from your own compatriots as they did from the Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out; they displease God and oppose everyone by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. Thus they have constantly been filling up the measure of their sins; but God’s wrath has overtaken them at last. (1 Th 2:13-16 , NRSV)

Mind you, their true meaning isnt anything against the Jewish nation, but if you look at the list before this of Christian persecution, one can see that any priest can easily use them to say Jews are bad or to justify persecution, and that has happened.

 

[Iaculus]

Ah, good ol' Paul. Thought he might be responsible.

 

[Espy]

Meh. People can use whatever they want to say what they want. The focus of Pauls writings and Christs words were made clear that all have sinned and that ALL can be restored to relationship with Christ. Hell, Paul was a very learned Jew who killed Christians before his conversion.

 

[Chazwozel]

I have nothing against the Jewish faith or the practitioners of it, but to a one, every single Jewish person I've known (and I've known quite a few) was stuck-up, arrogant, and overall kind of a jerk/bitch. I can't imagine the faith itself is responsible for that; maybe I've just had a bad sampling?

I guess by that logic it's the Jew in me that makes me a dick. :eyeroll:

 

[Icarus]

Well considering that the European countries that hold the most Jewish people are no longer very religious I doubt that is one of the reasons for the dislike of Jewish people. I still stick to the fact that the orthodox Jews are seen as stuck up and arrogant (and my personal experiences confirm this). I mean, you won't know you're talking to a Jewish person unless they dress in an obvious way and those that do tend to be more conservative. It's also those that tend to support Israel, stick to the old customs, refuse to blend in, etc.

Just wondering: how many Jewish people in the USA are really orthodox? Dressed like this I mean:
http://arjewtino.com/wp-content/uploads ... jews-2.JPG

 

[Espy]

I have nothing against the Jewish faith or the practitioners of it, but to a one, every single Jewish person I've known (and I've known quite a few) was stuck-up, arrogant, and overall kind of a jerk/bitch. I can't imagine the faith itself is responsible for that; maybe I've just had a bad sampling?

I guess by that logic it's the Jew in me that makes me a dick. :eyeroll:

It's gotta be something, why not that?

 

I have a couple Jewish friends (and probably more that I just don't know are Jewish) and they are cool as hell. I know a couple of Palestinians and they are cool. In fact, there's only one race of people that constantly surprises me with their levels of dickery...white Christians. But of course I know many more of them than anyone else so I guess it's inevitable.

I know a few Indians (from India, not Native Americans) and while nice I just don't understand them. They don't eat beef. Not sure that's even human. (Sorry Ritesh, if you're reading this. If you want I'll say it to your face later...)

 

[Troll]

Well considering that the European countries that hold the most Jewish people are no longer very religious I doubt that is one of the reasons for the dislike of Jewish people. I still stick to the fact that the orthodox Jews are seen as stuck up and arrogant (and my personal experiences confirm this). I mean, you won't know you're talking to a Jewish person unless they dress in an obvious way and those that do tend to be more conservative. It's also those that tend to support Israel, stick to the old customs, refuse to blend in, etc.

I'm sorry, but you're just repeating classic xenophobic and anti-semitic arguments here. The old "they don't assimilate, stick to the old ways" is the standard claim made against every minority group throughout history. And I again point to confirmation bias when I see you use the same old "all Jews are stuck up, it's true 'cuz every Jew I ever met is stuck up!" argument. Both of those statements are crap.

 

[GasBandit]

I'm going to keep repeating the same ad hominem over and over, never actually address the issue, and continue to gradually revise my stances to something less indefensible! AND overuse SMILEYS for MAXIMUM LULZ!

Whatever works for you. If you can't convince em, confuse em, eh Jon?

 

[LordRendar]

I know a couple of Jews and they are actually quite decent folks.Sometimes they are kinda stuck up,but those are rare moments.Same goes with my Muslim friends.

What I cant stand though are people who like to swing around their Religion/Nationality around like a Club.

Like some Turks I know who are like "Im from Turky and a Muslim,dont mess with me." And I usally reply "Im a guy and Im gonna punch your lights out,dosn't matter where I am from or who my God is." :humph:

Haven't met any Christian Zeots here in Germany yet,though quite a few in the Philippines,problem is that everyone on the Island was a Catholic,so they didn't really have anyone to call heathen swine.I did get whacked on the head by an old crone with an bag for kissing my Girlfriend in public though.

 

[ElJuski]

Are we really having a discussion of whether or not Jews are Nice People?

Like, seriously?

 

[JCM]

Ah, good ol' Paul. Thought he might be responsible.

Well, Paul was always that guy, who after the first three mechanics explained that your car's engine was functioning well because it had been cleaned of dirt, would jump in and scream that your car engine is really made of celestial Unicorn's horns.

Sadly, the old testament is full of promises from God tothe Jews, and heaps of praise upon them and even the title of those chose by God.

Bla bla Confuse blabla stupid dead cat pic, and yes I didnt read the thread. And now Ive been shown to have bias and nobody agrees with me, I´ll just write blabber others must be juvenile to avoid the fact that I am wrong and have a bias worse than a suicide bomber´s
oh, and UN BASE BAAAD! US GOOOD!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Pathetic without a single sourced argument X4

Are we really having a discussion of whether or not Jews are Nice People?

Like, seriously?

Up next on halforums, "Do French women shave their armpits, or not.
*scary tune plays*

 

[Sparhawk]

The bible could be used to imply that the Jewish nation will/should be blamed (and probably was used, again, look at the list above of persecution)-
* Matthew 27:25
* Mark 2:6 , 16; 3:6; 15:10
* Luke 23:4, 14, 20, 22, 25
* John 8:44
* 1 Thessalonians 2:15ff

And - 1 Thessalonians 2:15ff . The whole paragraph reads:

We also constantly give thanks to God for this, that when you received the word of God that you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word but as what it really is, God’s word, which is also at work in you believers. For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you suffered the same things from your own compatriots as they did from the Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out; they displease God and oppose everyone by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. Thus they have constantly been filling up the measure of their sins; but God’s wrath has overtaken them at last. (1 Th 2:13-16 , NRSV)

Mind you, their true meaning isnt anything against the Jewish nation, but if you look at the list before this of Christian persecution, one can see that any priest can easily use them to say Jews are bad or to justify persecution, and that has happened.

Personally I think that you are allowing your personal bias into this and really stretching to say those verses could be used to implicate the Jews as the scapegoats. Yes, there are always extremists on all sides (Christian, Muslim, tree hugging hippie...) but just as you like to point out, repeatedly, it isn't the general consensus among Christians.

And don't lump all Christians in with Catholics.

 

[JCM]

The bible could be used to imply that the Jewish nation will/should be blamed (and probably was used, again, look at the list above of persecution)-
* Matthew 27:25
* Mark 2:6 , 16; 3:6; 15:10
* Luke 23:4, 14, 20, 22, 25
* John 8:44
* 1 Thessalonians 2:15ff

And - 1 Thessalonians 2:15ff . The whole paragraph reads:

We also constantly give thanks to God for this, that when you received the word of God that you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word but as what it really is, God’s word, which is also at work in you believers. For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you suffered the same things from your own compatriots as they did from the Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out; they displease God and oppose everyone by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. Thus they have constantly been filling up the measure of their sins; but God’s wrath has overtaken them at last. (1 Th 2:13-16 , NRSV)

Mind you, their true meaning isnt anything against the Jewish nation, but if you look at the list before this of Christian persecution, one can see that any priest can easily use them to say Jews are bad or to justify persecution, and that has happened.

Personally I think that you are allowing your personal bias into this and really stretching to say those verses could be used to implicate the Jews as the scapegoats. Yes, there are always extremists on all sides (Christian, Muslim, tree hugging hippie...) but just as you like to point out, repeatedly, it isn't the general consensus among Christians.

And don't lump all Christians in with Catholics.

Nope.
If you had bothered to read the large text you'd see Im not atlking with a bias, as its history, and I consider the Muslims as worse offenders, but since you cant read, tell me that there wasn't persecution, and it wasnt just by Catholics-

Persecution of Jews by Christians:

Initial persecution of Jews was along religious lines. Persecution would cease if the person converted to Christianity.
306: The church Synod of Elvira banned marriages, sexual intercourse and community contacts between Christians and Jews. 3,4
315: Constantine published the Edict of Milan which extended religious tolerance to Christians. Jews lost many rights with this edict. They were no longer permitted to live in Jerusalem, or to proselytize.
325: The Council of Nicea decided to separate the celebration of Easter from the Jewish Passover. They stated: "For it is unbecoming beyond measure that on this holiest of festivals we should follow the customs of the Jews. Henceforth let us have nothing in common with this odious people...We ought not, therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews...our worship follows a...more convenient course...we desire dearest brethren, to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the Jews...How, then, could we follow these Jews, who are almost certainly blinded."
337: Christian Emperor Constantius created a law which made the marriage of a Jewish man to a Christian punishable by death.
339: Converting to Judaism became a criminal offense.
343-381: The Laodicean Synod approved Cannon XXXVIII: "It is not lawful [for Christians] to receive unleavened bread from the Jews, nor to be partakers of their impiety." 5
367 - 376: St. Hilary of Poitiers referred to Jews as a perverse people who God has cursed forever. St. Ephroem refers to synagogues as brothels.
379-395: Emperor Theodosius the Great permitted the destruction of synagogues if it served a religious purpose. Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire at this time.
bullet 380: The bishop of Milan was responsible for the burning of a synagogue; he referred to it as "an act pleasing to God."
415: The Bishop of Alexandria, St. Cyril, expelled the Jews from that Egyptian city.
415: St. Augustine wrote "The true image of the Hebrew is Judas Iscariot, who sells the Lord for silver. The Jew can never understand the Scriptures and forever will bear the guilt for the death of Jesus."
418: St. Jerome, who created the Vulgate translation of the Bible wrote of a synagogue: "If you call it a brothel, a den of vice, the Devil's refuge, Satan's fortress, a place to deprave the soul, an abyss of every conceivable disaster or whatever you will, you are still saying less than it deserves."
489 - 519: Christian mobs destroyed the synagogues in Antioch, Daphne (near Antioch) and Ravenna.
528: Emperor Justinian (527-564) passed the Justinian Code. It prohibited Jews from building synagogues, reading the Bible in Hebrew, assemble in public, celebrate Passover before Easter, and testify against Christians in court. 3
535: The "Synod of Claremont decreed that Jews could not hold public office or have authority over Christians." 3
538: The 3rd and 4th Councils of Orleans prohibited Jews from appearing in public during the Easter season. Canon XXX decreed that "From the Thursday before Easter for four days, Jews may not appear in the company of Christians." 5 Marriages between Christians and Jews were prohibited. Christians were prohibited from converting to Judaism. 4
561: The bishop of Uzes expelled Jews from his diocese in France.
612: Jews were not allowed to own land, to be farmers or enter certain trades.
613: Very serious persecution began in Spain. Jews were given the options of either leaving Spain or converting to Christianity. Jewish children over 6 years of age were taken from their parents and given a Christian education
692: Cannnon II of the Quinisext Council stated: "Let no one in the priestly order nor any layman eat the unleavened bread of the Jews, nor have any familiar intercourse with them, nor summon them in illness, nor receive medicines from them, nor bathe with them; but if anyone shall take in hand to do so, if he is a cleric, let him be deposed, but if a layman, let him be cut off." 5
694: The 17th Church Council of Toledo, Spain defined Jews as the serfs of the prince. This was based, in part, on the beliefs by Chrysostom, Origen, Jerome, and other Church Fathers that God punished the Jews with perpetual slavery because of their responsibility for the execution of Jesus. 5
722: Leo III outlawed Judaism. Jews were baptized against their will.
855: Jews were exiled from Italy
1050: The Synod of Narbonne prohibited Christians from living in the homes of Jews.
1078: "Pope Gregory VII decreed that Jews could not hold office or be superiors to Christians." 6
1078: The Synod of Gerona forced Jews to pay church taxes
1096: The First Crusade was launched in this year. Although the prime goal of the crusades was to liberate Jerusalem from the Muslims, Jews were a second target. As the soldiers passed through Europe on the way to the Holy Land, large numbers of Jews were challenged: "Christ-killers, embrace the Cross or die!" 12,000 Jews in the Rhine Valley alone were killed in the first Crusade. This behavior continued for 8 additional crusades until the 9th in 1272.
1099: The Crusaders forced all of the Jews of Jerusalem into a central synagogue and set it on fire. Those who tried to escape were forced back into the burning building.
1121: Jews were exiled from Flanders (now part of present-day Belgium)
1130: Some Jews in London allegedly killed a sick man. The Jewish people in the city were required to pay 1 million marks as compensation.
1146: The Second Crusade began. A French Monk, Rudolf, called for the destruction of the Jews.
1179: Canon 24 of the Third Lateran Council stated: "Jews should be slaves to Christians and at the same time treated kindly due of humanitarian considerations." Canon 26 stated that "the testimony of Christians against Jews is to be preferred in all causes where they use their own witnesses against Christians." 7
1180: The French King of France, Philip Augustus, arbitrarily seized all Jewish property and expelled the Jews from the country. There was no legal justification for this action. They were allowed to sell all movable possessions, but their land and houses were stolen by the king.
1189: Jews were persecuted in England. The Crown claimed all Jewish possessions. Most of their houses were burned.

Thats just up to 1189 :slywink: There's a bigger list showing up to the 19th cetury at-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecutio ... tisemitism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christiani ... tisemitism

Now tell me they didn't use the Bible, and the phrases noted by me (of course, out-of-context)to persecute jews. Next time, read, and before making a claim that someone who has said worse of other religions, fucking fess up and know more about your religion's past (and my ex-religion)

 

[Iaculus]

The bible could be used to imply that the Jewish nation will/should be blamed (and probably was used, again, look at the list above of persecution)-
* Matthew 27:25
* Mark 2:6 , 16; 3:6; 15:10
* Luke 23:4, 14, 20, 22, 25
* John 8:44
* 1 Thessalonians 2:15ff

And - 1 Thessalonians 2:15ff . The whole paragraph reads:

We also constantly give thanks to God for this, that when you received the word of God that you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word but as what it really is, God’s word, which is also at work in you believers. For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you suffered the same things from your own compatriots as they did from the Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out; they displease God and oppose everyone by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. Thus they have constantly been filling up the measure of their sins; but God’s wrath has overtaken them at last. (1 Th 2:13-16 , NRSV)

Mind you, their true meaning isnt anything against the Jewish nation, but if you look at the list before this of Christian persecution, one can see that any priest can easily use them to say Jews are bad or to justify persecution, and that has happened.

Personally I think that you are allowing your personal bias into this and really stretching to say those verses could be used to implicate the Jews as the scapegoats. Yes, there are always extremists on all sides (Christian, Muslim, tree hugging hippie...) but just as you like to point out, repeatedly, it isn't the general consensus among Christians.

And don't lump all Christians in with Catholics.

Who says it was just the Catholics? Martin Luther was a rabid anti-Semite, for one.

 

[JCM]

I gave him some stuff to read, with more than just Catholic antisemitism.
Back to Israel, finally seems Israel is becoming sane-

-Israel finally accepted red cross and international aid, just no UN obsevers nor peacekeeping yet.
-If the rockets stop, the invasion stops and they will have a temporary ceasefire
-If Hamas steps down, the two year blockade will be called off and a longer treaty will be drawn
-Israel has said it may accept the EU-Egypt proposal, of a ceasefire and international peacekeeping with Hamas being disarmed.

If US vetoes this in the UN, god help them.

 

[Icarus]

I'm sorry, but you're just repeating classic xenophobic and anti-semitic arguments here. The old "they don't assimilate, stick to the old ways" is the standard claim made against every minority group throughout history. And I again point to confirmation bias when I see you use the same old "all Jews are stuck up, it's true 'cuz every Jew I ever met is stuck up!" argument. Both of those statements are crap.

a) xenophobia is NOT wanting people to adapt to customs when you're in someone else's country. Xenophobia is refusing to adapt and even refusing to deal with the local population. I don't mind them practicing their beliefs but don't create whole neighbourhoods where you lock yourselves up, pretending as if it's a mini-Israel and then look down on "outsiders" who enter it. If they were friendly and open, I doubt there would be anywhere near the dislike I'm seeing around me.

b) I made it clear that it's mainly the orthodox Jews that were giving Jews on the whole a bad reputation. My experiences ran across 8 years so I think they're pretty accurate. You mention your confirmation bias as much as you want, but I didn't even KNOW what Jews were like until I had my personal experiences and I quite liked them before I met them so you're plainly WRONG. My criticism was born out of my experiences with them instead of the other way round.

Also like I said, you can't compare the American Jew in any way - they're very very VERY very different.

 

[Troll]

I'm sorry, but you're just repeating classic xenophobic and anti-semitic arguments here. The old "they don't assimilate, stick to the old ways" is the standard claim made against every minority group throughout history. And I again point to confirmation bias when I see you use the same old "all Jews are stuck up, it's true 'cuz every Jew I ever met is stuck up!" argument. Both of those statements are crap.

a) xenophobia is NOT wanting people to adapt to customs when you're in someone else's country. Xenophobia is refusing to adapt and even refusing to deal with the local population. I don't mind them practicing their beliefs but don't create whole neighbourhoods where you lock yourselves up, pretending as if it's a mini-Israel and then look down on "outsiders" who enter it. If they were friendly and open, I doubt there would be anywhere near the dislike I'm seeing around me.

b) I made it clear that it's mainly the orthodox Jews that were giving Jews on the whole a bad reputation. My experiences ran across 8 years so I think they're pretty accurate. You mention your confirmation bias as much as you want, but I didn't even KNOW what Jews were like until I had my personal experiences and I quite liked them before I met them so you're plainly WRONG. My criticism was born out of my experiences with them instead of the other way round.

Also like I said, you can't compare the American Jew in any way - they're very very VERY very different.

I stick by my original assertion. Still crap. You're painting an entire denomination as stuck up, closed off, money-grubbing, non-assimilating bad people based on the fact that you've met some orthodox Jews you don't like. Do you have any hard proof that they live up to those accusations? Numbers, statistics, studies, anything? 'Cuz otherwise it comes off like the same old intolerant rant people have been shouting for generations. I don't doubt that there are *some* Jewish people who happen to fit this stereotype, but you don't seem to distinguish between that and *all* Jews (or all orthodox Jews, in this case).

By the way, xenophobia takes many forms. One of the most common is accusing a minority of not assimilating because they have the temerity to not automatically conform to all of the majority's ideals. Are orthodox jews in America wrong because they don't wear things from Old Navy? Because they don't have haircuts like most people? Because they don't buy houses in your neighborhood? Is that really what bothers you so much? If yes, am I going to hear you railing against the Amish, or traditional muslims, or any other group? Do they assimilate in the same sense?

Every group sticks together to some degree in this country. White, black, rich, poor, every religious faith... it's human nature to seek out groups and make tiny communities. It's also a major part of the American ideal: that you can come to the country and be yourself and nobody gives you crap for it (within reason). The reason I disagree so strongly with what you're saying is because it seems you want to bag on orthodox jews, and the entire jewish faith by association, for not instantly acting exactly like everyone else. But that's not what assimilation is.

That's how I see it, anyway.

In case anyone is wondering, not trying to troll or kid around. I'm serious.

 

[Icarus]

We all base our opinions on personal experiences. If the experiences of my friends and of myself all show the same thing, am I to go "well I'm sure it's a coincidence"? Don't be daft. You don't seem to get what makes an opinion - you can't NOT base your opinion on personal experiences. It's how life works.

Besides, my opinion is not based on two or three people I once met like you make it sound - I weekly went through those neighbourhoods for many years (we used to watch Formula 1 together every sunday) and we often hung out in them afterwards and I've met hundreds and seen the reaction of hundreds. I've seen an entire bar quiet down when we entered. He himself admitted to trying to get to know his neighbours (he lived in an apartment) and was even told by one of them that he didn't fit in and that it wasn't a Jewish custom to fraternize with your neighbour :shock: and that they valued their privacy. If there ever was a "fuck off" statement, that was it. Anyway, we gave up after a few years - except for a Jewish couple living a few floors up that dropped by now we never got to know any of them and they moved out a few years after my friend moved in.

So I stick with what I said - the conservatives give Jews on the whole a bad name. I sure as hell didn't like them - the young couple on the other hand was very friendly and even they wanted to get out of that neighbourhood because they were being told by the conservatives how to raise their own kid and they didn't take too kindly to that.