Cripes Israel, lay off a bit.

[Troll]

Look, I'm sorry you've had bad experiences. What you don't seem to get is how you're coming off, though. The meat of your posts in this thread have consisted of 1) making insulting statements about orthodox Jews as a whole, and 2) giving examples for why AN ENTIRE RELIGIOUS DENOMINATION IS BAD based on your personal experiences. Am I supposed to see you as some enlightened scholar now because you had a friend who lived in a building with mostly bad neighbors one time? I live next to an apartment full of rude rednecks, does that mean all white people are bad?

Yup, you're entitled to your opinion. And I'm entitled to call it crap. You see, that's my opinion. Or am I being daft?

 

[Hailey Knight]

I still stick to the fact that the blacks are seen as stuck up and arrogant (and my personal experiences confirm this). I mean, you won't know you're talking to a black person unless they show their skin color in an obvious way and those that do tend to be more conservative.

I still stick to the fact that the Mexicans are seen as stuck up and arrogant (and my personal experiences confirm this). I mean, you won't know you're talking to a Mexican unless they have an accent in an obvious way and those that do tend to be more conservative.

I still stick to the fact that the women are seen as stuck up and arrogant (and my personal experiences confirm this). I mean, you won't know you're talking to a women unless they have a vagina in an obvious way and those that do tend to be more conservative.

I still stick to the fact that the Muslims are seen as stuck up and arrogant (and my personal experiences confirm this). I mean, you won't know you're talking to a Muslim unless they go to Mecca in an obvious way and those that do tend to be more conservative.

I still stick to the fact that the Romans are seen as stuck up and arrogant (and my personal experiences confirm this). I mean, you won't know you're talking to a Roman unless they lose their empire in an obvious way and those that do tend to be more conservative.

I still stick to the fact that the doctors are seen as stuck up and arrogant (and my personal experiences confirm this). I mean, you won't know you're talking to a doctor unless they amputate your arm in an obvious way and those that do tend to be more conservative.

I still stick to the fact that the Martian are seen as stuck up and arrogant (and my personal experiences confirm this). I mean, you won't know you're talking to a Martian unless they have antennae in an obvious way and those that do tend to be more conservative.

I still stick to the fact that the gays are seen as stuck up and arrogant (and my personal experiences confirm this). I mean, you won't know you're talking to a gays unless they watch Will & Grace in an obvious way and those that do tend to be more conservative.

I still stick to the fact that the conservatives are seen as stuck up and arrogant (and my personal experiences confirm this). I mean, you won't know you're talking to a conservative unless they conserve in an obvious way and those that do tend to be more conservative.

I still stick to the fact that the people with username Icarus are seen as stuck up and arrogant (and my personal experiences confirm this). I mean, you won't know you're talking to a person with the username Icarus unless they have the username Icarus in an obvious way and those that do tend to be more conservative.

 

[Sparhawk]

****lots of deleted stuff****

Now tell me they didn't use the Bible, and the phrases noted by me (of course, out-of-context)to persecute jews. Next time, read, and before making a claim that someone who has said worse of other religions, fucking fess up and know more about your religion's past (and my ex-religion)

I read and comprehend that you lump all Christians as Catholics. It's in everything that you write about Christianity. I never said (as you imply with the reply) that some people don't do it, but they aren't living up to the rules handed down by Christ. Love God, Love Others, the two greatest commandments.

I know my religion's past, and note that extremists use stuff (as you state, out of context) but that doesn't make all Christians guilty of it, just as the actions of extremist Muslims don't make all Muslims guilty of their transgressions.

 

[Iaculus]

****lots of deleted stuff****

Now tell me they didn't use the Bible, and the phrases noted by me (of course, out-of-context)to persecute jews. Next time, read, and before making a claim that someone who has said worse of other religions, fucking fess up and know more about your religion's past (and my ex-religion)

I read and comprehend that you lump all Christians as Catholics. It's in everything that you write about Christianity. I never said (as you imply with the reply) that some people don't do it, but they aren't living up to the rules handed down by Christ. Love God, Love Others, the two greatest commandments.

I know my religion's past, and note that extremists use stuff (as you state, out of context) but that doesn't make all Christians guilty of it, just as the actions of extremist Muslims don't make all Muslims guilty of their transgressions.

Why bring up Catholics here? Much of what he mentioned had more to do with the Eastern Orthodox churches, and then there was my point about Luther. Christian extremists are thoroughly multidenominational - even the Anglicans have some.

 

[Sparhawk]

Why bring up Catholics here? Much of what he mentioned had more to do with the Eastern Orthodox churches, and then there was my point about Luther. Christian extremists are thoroughly multidenominational - even the Anglicans have some.

Because almost all of JCM's experience with Christianity is with Catholicism, and he always tries to lump all Christianity as Catholics, he even brought it up earlier in the thread.

 

[Iaculus]

Why bring up Catholics here? Much of what he mentioned had more to do with the Eastern Orthodox churches, and then there was my point about Luther. Christian extremists are thoroughly multidenominational - even the Anglicans have some.

Because almost all of JCM's experience with Christianity is with Catholicism, and he always tries to lump all Christianity as Catholics, he even brought it up earlier in the thread.

A telling response. How does that affect the historical data he presented in his most recent post?

 

[JCM]

He didnt even read the data

****lots of deleted stuff****

Now tell me they didn't use the Bible, and the phrases noted by me (of course, out-of-context)to persecute jews. Next time, read, and before making a claim that someone who has said worse of other religions, fucking fess up and know more about your religion's past (and my ex-religion)

I read and comprehend that you lump all Christians as Catholics. It's in everything that you write about Christianity.

Seeing this is the first time I wrote about christianity as a whole in these forums in like, a year, so cut the bullshit, as for the rest? Since you cant get that you were wrong, its not only the catholic church that has been persecuting Jews, again -

The bible could be used to imply that the Jewish nation will/should be blamed (and probably was used, again, look at the list above of persecution)-
* Matthew 27:25
* Mark 2:6 , 16; 3:6; 15:10
* Luke 23:4, 14, 20, 22, 25
* John 8:44
* 1 Thessalonians 2:15ff

And - 1 Thessalonians 2:15ff . The whole paragraph reads:

We also constantly give thanks to God for this, that when you received the word of God that you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word but as what it really is, God’s word, which is also at work in you believers. For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you suffered the same things from your own compatriots as they did from the Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out; they displease God and oppose everyone by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. Thus they have constantly been filling up the measure of their sins; but God’s wrath has overtaken them at last. (1 Th 2:13-16 , NRSV)

Mind you, their true meaning isnt anything against the Jewish nation, but if you look at the list before this of Christian persecution, one can see that any priest can easily use them to say Jews are bad or to justify persecution, and that has happened.

Personally I think that you are allowing your personal bias into this and really stretching to say those verses could be used to implicate the Jews as the scapegoats. Yes, there are always extremists on all sides (Christian, Muslim, tree hugging hippie...) but just as you like to point out, repeatedly, it isn't the general consensus among Christians.

And don't lump all Christians in with Catholics.

Nope.
If you had bothered to read the large text you'd see Im not atlking with a bias, as its history, and I consider the Muslims as worse offenders, but since you cant read, tell me that there wasn't persecution, and it wasnt just by Catholics-

Persecution of Jews by Christians:

Initial persecution of Jews was along religious lines. Persecution would cease if the person converted to Christianity.
306: The church Synod of Elvira banned marriages, sexual intercourse and community contacts between Christians and Jews. 3,4
315: Constantine published the Edict of Milan which extended religious tolerance to Christians. Jews lost many rights with this edict. They were no longer permitted to live in Jerusalem, or to proselytize.
325: The Council of Nicea decided to separate the celebration of Easter from the Jewish Passover. They stated: "For it is unbecoming beyond measure that on this holiest of festivals we should follow the customs of the Jews. Henceforth let us have nothing in common with this odious people...We ought not, therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews...our worship follows a...more convenient course...we desire dearest brethren, to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the Jews...How, then, could we follow these Jews, who are almost certainly blinded."
337: Christian Emperor Constantius created a law which made the marriage of a Jewish man to a Christian punishable by death.
339: Converting to Judaism became a criminal offense.
343-381: The Laodicean Synod approved Cannon XXXVIII: "It is not lawful [for Christians] to receive unleavened bread from the Jews, nor to be partakers of their impiety." 5
367 - 376: St. Hilary of Poitiers referred to Jews as a perverse people who God has cursed forever. St. Ephroem refers to synagogues as brothels.
379-395: Emperor Theodosius the Great permitted the destruction of synagogues if it served a religious purpose. Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire at this time.
bullet 380: The bishop of Milan was responsible for the burning of a synagogue; he referred to it as "an act pleasing to God."
415: The Bishop of Alexandria, St. Cyril, expelled the Jews from that Egyptian city.
415: St. Augustine wrote "The true image of the Hebrew is Judas Iscariot, who sells the Lord for silver. The Jew can never understand the Scriptures and forever will bear the guilt for the death of Jesus."
418: St. Jerome, who created the Vulgate translation of the Bible wrote of a synagogue: "If you call it a brothel, a den of vice, the Devil's refuge, Satan's fortress, a place to deprave the soul, an abyss of every conceivable disaster or whatever you will, you are still saying less than it deserves."
489 - 519: Christian mobs destroyed the synagogues in Antioch, Daphne (near Antioch) and Ravenna.
528: Emperor Justinian (527-564) passed the Justinian Code. It prohibited Jews from building synagogues, reading the Bible in Hebrew, assemble in public, celebrate Passover before Easter, and testify against Christians in court. 3
535: The "Synod of Claremont decreed that Jews could not hold public office or have authority over Christians." 3
538: The 3rd and 4th Councils of Orleans prohibited Jews from appearing in public during the Easter season. Canon XXX decreed that "From the Thursday before Easter for four days, Jews may not appear in the company of Christians." 5 Marriages between Christians and Jews were prohibited. Christians were prohibited from converting to Judaism. 4
561: The bishop of Uzes expelled Jews from his diocese in France.
612: Jews were not allowed to own land, to be farmers or enter certain trades.
613: Very serious persecution began in Spain. Jews were given the options of either leaving Spain or converting to Christianity. Jewish children over 6 years of age were taken from their parents and given a Christian education
692: Cannnon II of the Quinisext Council stated: "Let no one in the priestly order nor any layman eat the unleavened bread of the Jews, nor have any familiar intercourse with them, nor summon them in illness, nor receive medicines from them, nor bathe with them; but if anyone shall take in hand to do so, if he is a cleric, let him be deposed, but if a layman, let him be cut off." 5
694: The 17th Church Council of Toledo, Spain defined Jews as the serfs of the prince. This was based, in part, on the beliefs by Chrysostom, Origen, Jerome, and other Church Fathers that God punished the Jews with perpetual slavery because of their responsibility for the execution of Jesus. 5
722: Leo III outlawed Judaism. Jews were baptized against their will.
855: Jews were exiled from Italy
1050: The Synod of Narbonne prohibited Christians from living in the homes of Jews.
1078: "Pope Gregory VII decreed that Jews could not hold office or be superiors to Christians." 6
1078: The Synod of Gerona forced Jews to pay church taxes
1096: The First Crusade was launched in this year. Although the prime goal of the crusades was to liberate Jerusalem from the Muslims, Jews were a second target. As the soldiers passed through Europe on the way to the Holy Land, large numbers of Jews were challenged: "Christ-killers, embrace the Cross or die!" 12,000 Jews in the Rhine Valley alone were killed in the first Crusade. This behavior continued for 8 additional crusades until the 9th in 1272.
1099: The Crusaders forced all of the Jews of Jerusalem into a central synagogue and set it on fire. Those who tried to escape were forced back into the burning building.
1121: Jews were exiled from Flanders (now part of present-day Belgium)
1130: Some Jews in London allegedly killed a sick man. The Jewish people in the city were required to pay 1 million marks as compensation.
1146: The Second Crusade began. A French Monk, Rudolf, called for the destruction of the Jews.
1179: Canon 24 of the Third Lateran Council stated: "Jews should be slaves to Christians and at the same time treated kindly due of humanitarian considerations." Canon 26 stated that "the testimony of Christians against Jews is to be preferred in all causes where they use their own witnesses against Christians." 7
1180: The French King of France, Philip Augustus, arbitrarily seized all Jewish property and expelled the Jews from the country. There was no legal justification for this action. They were allowed to sell all movable possessions, but their land and houses were stolen by the king.
1189: Jews were persecuted in England. The Crown claimed all Jewish possessions. Most of their houses were burned.

Thats just up to 1189 :slywink: There's a bigger list showing up to the 19th cetury at-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecutio ... tisemitism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christiani ... tisemitism

Now tell me they didn't use the Bible, and the phrases noted by me (of course, out-of-context)to persecute jews. Next time, read, and before making a claim that someone who has said worse of other religions, fucking fess up and know more about your religion's past (and my ex-religion)

Grow a brain, research the given cases to get historical persepctive, click on the links and see from Indian Malankan church members to Egypt Coptic Christians to members of the Evangelical church, there has been anti-semistism by Christians as a whole, NOT only Catholics.

I await you to learn to debate and do proper research, and BTW, find me where did I : always" lump Christians as a whole with the Catholic church :slywink:

 

[JCM]

Why bring up Catholics here? Much of what he mentioned had more to do with the Eastern Orthodox churches, and then there was my point about Luther. Christian extremists are thoroughly multidenominational - even the Anglicans have some.

Because almost all of JCM's experience with Christianity is with Catholicism, and he always tries to lump all Christianity as Catholics, he even brought it up earlier in the thread.

Who let this idiotic newbie in?

Ive studied theology in an evangelical church, mormonism, grew up a catholic, have had more experience with churches from Egypt to Japan and South Africa. Heck, Ive probably know more about your book(and versions of it), and have been to more churches in more countries than you ever did in your sorry life.

Heck, I wasted 12 bloody years doing so.

May I suggest again, shoving that bias claim and prove that ONLY the catholic church promoted anti semitism, and get some history and perspective? Or how about studying

-the Lutheran church- read volume 47 of Luther's Works - "On The Jews and Their Lies", this and acceptance of his works allowed Hitler a moral excuse to cause the holocaust.
-up Peter Martyr Vermigli, one of Reformed Protestantisms formers, and his making Jews into an enemy
-the Dominicans' views on Jews, and the slaughter of jews on the way on Jan Ziska.
-the Eastern Orthodox Church's use until today of prayers until today mentioning "impious and law-breaking people, the swarm of deicides, the lawless people of the Jews"

Thats a good start for you, good luck with the homework, I'll be back later to educate you more, or see if you'll do a Gasbandit. :slywink:

 

Are we really having a discussion of whether or not Jews are Nice People?

Like, seriously?

Your avatar works well with that question.

 

[Hailey Knight]

Are we really having a discussion of whether or not Jews are Nice People?

Like, seriously?

Your avatar works well with that question.

*gasp* It's a JJJJJEEEEEWWWWW!!!!!!

 

*gasp* It's a JJJJJEEEEEWWWWW!!!!!!

I'm here for your babies; it's almost time for Passover!

 

[JCM]

Are we really having a discussion of whether or not Jews are Nice People?

Like, seriously?

Your avatar works well with that question.

*gasp* It's a JJJJJEEEEEWWWWW!!!!!!

Nope

Its super-jew

Or is it "superjew"?

 

[Sparhawk]

Why bring up Catholics here? Much of what he mentioned had more to do with the Eastern Orthodox churches, and then there was my point about Luther. Christian extremists are thoroughly multidenominational - even the Anglicans have some.

Because almost all of JCM's experience with Christianity is with Catholicism, and he always tries to lump all Christianity as Catholics, he even brought it up earlier in the thread.

Who let this idiotic newbie in?

Ive studied theology in an evangelical church, mormonism, grew up a catholic, have had more experience with churches from Egypt to Japan and South Africa. Heck, Ive probably know more about your book(and versions of it), and have been to more churches in more countries than you ever did in your sorry life.

Heck, I wasted 12 bloody years doing so.

May I suggest again, shoving that bias claim and prove that ONLY the catholic church promoted anti semitism, and get some history and perspective? Or how about studying the Lutheran church- read volume 47 of Luther's Works - "On The Jews and Their Lies", this and acceptance of his works allowed Hiltler a moral excuse to cause the holocaust. Then look up Peter Martyr Vermigli, a shaper of Reformed Protestantism, and his writings, the Dominicans' views on Jews, and the slaughter of jews on the way on Jan Ziska.

Good luck with the homework.

Good luck learning to read Julio. You see what you want and try to bend the discussion that way. Never claimed it was only Catholics, but pointed out that it's the extremists that push crap, from Christianity to Muslims.

Also, learn to discuss with out baseless name calling, it takes away from the discussion needlessly.

 

[JCM]

Ill be gald to learn to erad if you can mount an argument, or cure that amnesia

Why bring up Catholics here? Much of what he mentioned had more to do with the Eastern Orthodox churches, and then there was my point about Luther. Christian extremists are thoroughly multidenominational - even the Anglicans have some.

Because almost all of JCM's experience with Christianity is with Catholicism, and he always tries to lump all Christianity as Catholics, he even brought it up earlier in the thread.

Who let this idiotic newbie in?

Ive studied theology in an evangelical church, Mormonism, grew up a catholic, have had more experience with churches from Egypt to Japan and South Africa. Heck, Ive probably know more about your book(and versions of it), and have been to more churches in more countries than you ever did in your sorry life.

Heck, I wasted 12 bloody years doing so.

May I suggest again, shoving that bias claim and prove that ONLY the catholic church promoted anti semitism, and get some history and perspective? Or how about studying

-the Lutheran church- read volume 47 of Luther's Works - "On The Jews and Their Lies", this and acceptance of his works allowed Hitler a moral excuse to cause the holocaust.
-up Peter Martyr Vermigli, one of Reformed Protestantisms formers, and his making Jews into an enemy
-the Dominicans' views on Jews, and the slaughter of jews on the way on Jan Ziska.
-the Eastern Orthodox Church's use until today of prayers until today mentioning "impious and law-breaking people, the swarm of deicides, the lawless people of the Jews"

Thats a good start for you, good luck with the homework, I'll be back later to educate you more, or see if you'll do a Gasbandit.

Never claimed it was only Catholics, but pointed out that it's the extremists that push crap, from Christianity to Muslims.

Nope, you just whined about my bias and said I was lumping all Christians with Catholics

And don't lump all Christians in with Catholics.

I read and comprehend that you lump all Christians as Catholics. It's in everything that you write about Christianity.

Because almost all of JCM's experience with Christianity is with Catholicism, and he always tries to lump all Christianity as Catholics

Guess what kiddo, a) I have been to and studied more churches and sects around the world than you have, and b) ITS NOT ONLY THE CATHOLICS. I don't need to lump Christianity in, because Ive given countless other churches, and I'd be glad to give more, for examples, churches that went along with Hitler's Jewish solution, and even preached his propaganda-
* Gleichschaltung
* German Christians
* Protestant Reich Church
* Hanns Kerrl, Minister for Ecclesiastical Affairs
* Positive Christianity (the approved Nazi version of Christianity)

Tell me again that I'm lumping Catholics with Christians, because Im saying BEFORE the Catholic church, and up to the last century, there has been anti-semitism by Christians (and thats Catholic AND non-catholic).

Oh, and let go of your bias against Catholics, they arent that bad these days.

 

[bhamv]

I have a feeling this one thread alone is enough for JCM to exceed my total postcount.

Oh well, it was fun having more posts than him while it lasted.

 

[Iaculus]

I have a feeling this one thread alone is enough for JCM to exceed my total postcount.

Oh well, it was fun having more posts than him while it lasted.

Screw your postcount, what about mine?

 

[JCM]

I have a feeling this one thread alone is enough for JCM to exceed my total postcount.

Oh well, it was fun having more posts than him while it lasted.

Screw your postcount, what about mine?

Nah, Gas just repeats the same talking points when you give him sources and backing up data, and that Catholic hater was too easy to prove wrong...

Maybe if you guys got Invader here.

 

[Icarus]

*bunch of bullshit*

Yeah except none of those examples make sense :roll:

 

[Mr_Chaz]

*gasp* It's a JJJJJEEEEEWWWWW!!!!!!

I'm here for your babies; it's almost time for Passover!

They are crispy and taste good with Ketchup.

 

[Iaculus]

*gasp* It's a JJJJJEEEEEWWWWW!!!!!!

I'm here for your babies; it's almost time for Passover!

They are crispy and taste good with Ketchup.

Me, I prefer Worcestershire sauce.

Then again, I am an agnostic.

 

[ElJuski]

*bunch of bullshit*

Yeah except none of those examples make sense :roll:

I think they do. I think you're the one harboring the bullshit.

 

[GasBandit]

Bla bla Confuse blabla stupid dead cat pic, and yes I didnt read the thread. And now Ive been shown to have bias and nobody agrees with me, I´ll just write blabber others must be juvenile to avoid the fact that I am wrong and have a bias worse than a suicide bomber´s
oh, and UN BASE BAAAD! US GOOOD!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Pathetic without a single sourced argument X4

Another mutation of the stance! Sourced arguments? I've provided YOU more links over the course of my argument than you have sent at ME ... you've provided *none*, and promptly ignored the links or pretended that part of the argument never existed. Also, you haven't addressed my final point at all again. All you've done NOW is slap [citation needed] over your eyes and plugged your ears with smileys. Address my argument, which you've ignored for pages now... or I guess, just copy/paste your lollerskate again and further show the weakness of your position by refusing to play at all.

I gave him some stuff to read, with more than just Catholic antisemitism.
Back to Israel, finally seems Israel is becoming sane-

-Israel finally accepted red cross and international aid, just no UN obsevers nor peacekeeping yet.
-If the rockets stop, the invasion stops and they will have a temporary ceasefire
-If Hamas steps down, the two year blockade will be called off and a longer treaty will be drawn
-Israel has said it may accept the EU-Egypt proposal, of a ceasefire and international peacekeeping with Hamas being disarmed.

If US vetoes this in the UN, god help them.

I doubt the US would veto the Egypt proposal, seeing as how Bush and Condi have been talking it up and trying to nudge Israel in that direction all week.

Edit - hah... I just heard on the local news here that soon Texas will have its first Jewish state house chairman in the entirety of its history... and he's replacing a catholic.

 

[JCM]

Bla bla Mutation bla bla of course a huge-ass list of missions, with links all showing that US' participation is less than 20% and UN had many successful missions and lasting peace treaties is too much for my biased mind to handle, and yes I didnt read the thread. Even though nobody agrees with me, UN BAAAD! US GOOOD!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Pathetic X5, here is another nickel- "Fox"

Back to Israel, finally seems Israel is becoming sane-

-Israel finally accepted red cross and international aid, just no UN obsevers nor peacekeeping yet.
-If the rockets stop, the invasion stops and they will have a temporary ceasefire
-If Hamas steps down, the two year blockade will be called off and a longer treaty will be drawn
-Israel has said it may accept the EU-Egypt proposal, of a ceasefire and international peacekeeping with Hamas being disarmed.

If US vetoes this in the UN, god help them.

I doubt the US would veto the Egypt proposal, seeing as how Bush and Condi have been talking it up and trying to nudge Israel in that direction all week.

So this must be Bush' version of the Clinton last-minute pardons, as for 8 years they've been vetoing an international peacekeeping force and base. :slywink:

Good to see even Bush is pushing for what I said would be the only other option, UN base/international peacekeeping, only you Gas and your UN phobia wont accept it, when you remove the aluminum hat I'll be glad to talk to you on the subject of UN.

 

[GasBandit]

Bla bla Mutation bla bla of course a huge-ass list of missions, with links all showing that US' participation is less than 20% and UN had many successful missions and lasting peace treaties is too much for my biased mind to handle, and yes I didnt read the thread. Even though nobody agrees with me, UN BAAAD! US GOOOD!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Pathetic X5, here is another nickel- "Fox"

You're the Madden game of posting. You just change the number and send the same stuff as last time and call it done. I went back and double checked... there were no links in your list. Try again, cupcake. Your entire argument has only been loosely joined with reality, coherence, or logic. If I didn't know better I'd think you were back on the sauce again.

Back to Israel, finally seems Israel is becoming sane-

-Israel finally accepted red cross and international aid, just no UN obsevers nor peacekeeping yet.
-If the rockets stop, the invasion stops and they will have a temporary ceasefire
-If Hamas steps down, the two year blockade will be called off and a longer treaty will be drawn
-Israel has said it may accept the EU-Egypt proposal, of a ceasefire and international peacekeeping with Hamas being disarmed.

If US vetoes this in the UN, god help them.

I doubt the US would veto the Egypt proposal, seeing as how Bush and Condi have been talking it up and trying to nudge Israel in that direction all week.

So this must be Bush' version of the Clinton last-minute pardons, as for 8 years they've been vetoing an international peacekeeping force and base. :slywink:

Good to see even Bush is pushing for what I said would be the only other option, UN base/international peacekeeping, only you Gas and your UN phobia wont accept it, when you remove the aluminum hat I'll be glad to talk to you on the subject of UN.

No news source I've been able to find has said the egyptian cease fire entails new UN bases (or even US bases under UN auspices). It basically just seems to be your standard cease fire with an agreement to meet to talk. You makin' stuff up again?

"Today I announce Egypt's proposal to contain the situation that consists of three elements. First, Israel and the Palestinian factions must accept an immediate ceasefire so that aid would reach the civilians," said Mubarak.

The second element was Egypt's invitation to the Israelis and Palestinians for an urgent meeting to ensure that a similar conflict does not recur. The discussions would also deal with the causes that led to the most recent conflict, including protecting the border, reopening crossing points and lifting the blockade.

"Thirdly, Egypt renews its invitation to the Palestinians for all factions, including Hamas and its rival Fatah, for reconciliation talks," added Mubarak.

Nothing in there about bases.

 

[North_Ranger]

Okay, that's hot enough.

*takes off his pants and enjoys the slightly cordite-smelling sauna*

 

[JCM]

*hands Northranger the bath oils*

Bla bla MAdden bla bla of course a huge-ass list of missions, with links all showing that US' participation is less than 20% and UN had many successful missions and lasting peace treaties is too much for my biased mind to handle, and yes I didnt read the thread. Even though nobody agrees with me, UN BAAAD! US GOOOD!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Pathetic X7, And if Fox (another nickel) taught you to scroll, you'd see on page three-

BTW, on the whole UN peacekeeping and its totals, here's a good report
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/dpko/bnote.htm

Want more? http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/dpko/index.asp
Or since you are having trouble reading, here's a simple list at wikipedia at your level
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_al ... g_missions

"Today I announce Egypt's proposal to contain the situation that consists of three elements. First, Israel and the Palestinian factions must accept an immediate ceasefire so that aid would reach the civilians," said Mubarak.

The second element was Egypt's invitation to the Israelis and Palestinians for an urgent meeting to ensure that a similar conflict does not recur. The discussions would also deal with the causes that led to the most recent conflict, including protecting the border, reopening crossing points and lifting the blockade.

"Thirdly, Egypt renews its invitation to the Palestinians for all factions, including Hamas and its rival Fatah, for reconciliation talks," added Mubarak.

Nothing in there about bases.

Nope, just European monitor stations at the borders. Israel itself is now pushing for it, as well as the Egyptian proposal of ceasefire, heck first link on google-

The three-part French-Egyptian plan requires an immediate ceasefire for a limited period to allow humanitarian aid to reach Gaza and give Egypt and France time to negotiate a final deal.*snip*

Israeli diplomats in Cairo are demanding the creation of an armed international peacekeeping force to guarantee Hamas's disarmament. This force would also guard the border between Gaza and Egypt, and destroy the secret tunnels Hamas uses to smuggle weapons into the territory.

The peacekeepers could be supplemented by an international naval force to enforce an arms embargo.

http://www.canada.com/news/story.html?id=1156325
Or

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said on Tuesday an international force along the Gaza-Egypt frontier, where Palestinian militants have built weapons-smuggling tunnels, should be seriously considered to help counter Hamas's growing strength

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L1479876.htm
Now

Israel itself is following what I said would be the best solution, glad to always educate you out of republicanfatasylandia, face it you and Hamas are now the only ones against international peacekeeping, again, good luck with the tin-foil hat and UNphobia :slywink:

 

[blotsfan]

[

JCM, your posts are just as repetitive as GasBandits (if not more).

 

[Twitch]

I'm just digging in but... Escushion makes a lot of sense.

 

[Iaculus]

[

JCM, your posts are just as repetitive as GasBandits (if not more).

JCM, your posts are just as repetitive as GasBandits (if not more).

 

[Hailey Knight]

My post made sense to perceptive, intelligent, and attractive individuals.

 

My post made sense to perceptive, intelligent, and attractive individuals.

Oh shit...now I'm afraid to go back and read it in case it doesn't make sense. aranoid:

 

[Twitch]

My post made sense to perceptive, intelligent, and attractive individuals.

Oh shit...now I'm afraid to go back and read it in case it doesn't make sense. aranoid:

It will, trust me.

 

[Bubble181]

Right....Oh god.

A) Icarus: I have no idea where you're from, but...in Belgium - Flander sespecially - the orthodox Jews have always been seen as an example to be followed bythe Morrocans and Turks. To use racist words for a minute here, at least they're decent, honest, hard-working folk who don't bother the rest and don't live off of charity. Sure they're self-centered and mostly insular, but they don't bother anyone else, unlike all those other filthy immigrants.Anyway, VB mode off :-P

B) GasBandit: Jesus holy crap, you've been saying JCM's using ad hominems and altered quotes for 3 pages now, but, since I just went through them...You started the whole "Quote: blahbalhyousuck" thing. Seriously, it's a bit infantile, but you're both doing it. Don't call him out on being ad hominem if YOU start calling HIM a broken record and stuff, mmkay?

C) Practically all Israel's done so far as far as humanitarian stuff goes has been largely laughed away by any and all humanitarian organisations in the field. Doctors withiout Borders, Oxfam, the Red Cross, UNWRA, UNICEF, all of them. Due tot he Israeli blockade, the average daily need of Gaza is approximately 475 trucks of aid a day. It's been down to a few dozen for months, nad during those three hour "cease-fires" (during which Israel happily continued firing whereever there wasn't a camera present, cfr. the school they bombed during a cease fire), 20 passed. Hurray.
Consider that ALL traffic has to pass through ONE open border checkpoint in the far south of Gaza, that the oil pipeline and the water pipes in the north have been closed for months now, that the technically UN-obligated second checkpoint in the north has been closed for over a year now, and...err...Well, the north of Gaza - you know, the part that's suffering most - isn't receiving any help at all.
ext point: during the past 8 years, Hamas has launched approcimately 7000 improvised misslies in the Sderot region, considered the absolute hotbed over the years, where the most deaths have occured and hwere the worst hasbeen suffered, according to Israeli official sources. That equals to about 3 missiles a day. A grand total of 27 people died.
In the past 13 days, Israel has killed over 700 confirmed civilians in only the southern part of Gaza - no actual figures are known about the north, and those casulaties considered Hamas militants have been subtracted. I'll happily say Israel can't tolerate having a buch of home-made missiles (and YES, they're improvised missiles in over 80% of the cases, according to red cross) fired at them every day, but how is this response in any way comparable? More people have died due to lack of medical care and lack of nourishment in Gaza (accordin gto MSF, doctors without borders, whatever they're called in english) than Israelis died from missile fire.

D) Israel's just providing ever more cannon fodder for Hamas and their ilk. Jesus.

E) So far, thankfully, Israel is considering the missiles fired from Lebanon to be an isolated incident - which, no doubt, they were. But readinfg the reports and watching arabian news sources - let's hope it stays that way. Hezbollah doesn't seem interested in nother war with israel (duh!) bu they might get sucked in if this continues for much longer...which would ultimately be horrible for all involved.

F) JCM's a talking head and a broken record, perhaps, and I certainly do'nt agree with him 100%, but really, some people (and not just GB :-p) show a remarkable lack of open-minded exploration of other news sources than the ones right in front of them, agreeing with them.

 

[Espy]

I think we should revoke JCM and Gasbandits ability to use the quote feature.

 

[Twitch]

What you're all ignoring here is no matter how few Israelis were killed there were israelis killed. Many people are saying that Israel has little or nothing to gain but through inaction they have so much to lose. We're not talking about a military action that has a definable goal. If Israel pulls out now I guarantee rockets will be in the air within a month.