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Democratic Primary: Crisis of infinite candidates

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Jun 17, 2019#1

phil

Well, it's time to start thinking about who we want to lose to Trump in 2020. With the first debate coming up in a few days we might as well figure out just who the fuck some of these people are. If you're a registered Mayor Pete-o-file, here for the Yang Bang, feeling the Bern, or recognize that Warren is just the best choice feel free to contribute and rep your candidate. Biden Bros please try to respect some personal space.

Iowa speeches playlist here
Rolling stone TL;DR summery of the candidates here

Let's take a look at a few of the ~~actually viable candidates~~ frontrunners:

Bernie Sanders "Back then, didn't want me. Now I'm hot, they all up on me"
Wikipedia
Twitter
Pod Save America interview link

Pro: Progressive and could actually do some good
Cons: Old A.F. Sexist?

Can they win? I mean....maybe? Young progressives will vote for him if they turn out to vote. Old people will be scared of the S word.

Pete Buttigieg "Age ain't nothing but a number"
Wikipedia
twitter
Pod Save interview

Pro: Smart, speaks 7 languages, military experience, wants to make big changes to the system
cons: no real concrete plans and kinda sorta centerist

Can they win? My heart says yes but my head says no. Don't get me wrong, I like the guy but he lacks the experience that older voters are going to want and anyone even remotely homophobic won't be able to bring themselves to vote for a gay man.

Elizabeth Warren "Make a fuckin' move it would make my fuckin' day
Got a 100 year plan you jus' think about today"
Wikipedia
Twitter
Pod Save interview

Pro: She's got a plan for that
Con : bUt CaN A wOmAn WiN?

Can They Win? I mean...yeah if we all just fuckin' vote for her. I mean people are going to call her Hillary 2.o which is weird when Biden is right over there. She's got support and she's got a plan and she's doing things smart. If she were a dude I'd say he should just start moving in now.

I'll try to do more later but if someone else wants to do a few go ahead.

Oh and one thing I want to personally say about this real quick:

Clearly I like some candidates more than others and I'm sure you do to. Poking fun and having frank honest discussions about them is all good and encuraged. Here's the thing though? One of these people is going to be The Chosen One. The Prince(ess) who was promised. Master of all elements who will bring balance to the world. Whoever it ends up being needs our FULL support otherwise we're going to, and I can't stress this enough, doom our country and maybe the world? So maybe let's not shit on them tooooooooo much.

swear to christ if Biden gets the nom I'll flip every god damn table I see for the next year

Jun 17, 2019#2

blotsfan

I like Warren as of now, but there isn't a candidate in the field I wouldn't vote for in the general (even Biden).

Jun 18, 2019#3

PatrThom

I generally make it a point not to talk about who I vote(d) for or even who I'm considering, but I am going to go on record now and say that, if I manage to survive all the way until election day, I will most definitely not be voting for Trump.

--Patrick

Jun 18, 2019#4

AshburnerX

I honestly blame Warren for Trump at this point. Warren could have nuked Bernie from orbit last election but stayed out to let Hillary have her moment and that gave the BernieBros all the reason they needed to not fucking show up... and fucking Bernie didn't do his god damn job post primary to convince them to vote for Hillary, so fuck him too. As for Buttigieg or Biden... I don't trust ether of them to actually enact a progressive agenda or to fight McConnell as savagely as he needs to be.

So who am I voting for? Whoever wins the primary, because I don't have faith in the system to actually fix itself through Progressivism but I understand that not voting for whoever isn't Donald is just going to potentially allow other people to come to harm because the Republicans are too chicken shit to do anything about the Religious Right and their on-going efforts to institute a theocracy or the Racist Right and their on-going efforts to forge a white ethnostate.

Wake me up when AOC is old enough to run... because I am SO very tired, all the time, because I feel like the country is an inch and a half from breaking into Civil War.

Jun 18, 2019#5

phil

AshburnerX said:
I honestly blame Warren for Trump at this point. Warren could have nuked Bernie from orbit last election but stayed out to let Hillary have her moment and that gave the BernieBros all the reason they needed to not fucking show up... and fucking Bernie didn't do his god damn job post primary to convince them to vote for Hillary, so fuck him too. As for Buttigieg or Biden... I don't trust ether of them to actually enact a progressive agenda or to fight McConnell as savagely as he needs to be.

So who am I voting for? Whoever wins the primary, because I don't have faith in the system to actually fix itself through Progressivism but I understand that not voting for whoever isn't Donald is just going to potentially allow other people to come to harm because the Republicans are too chicken shit to do anything about the Religious Right and their on-going efforts to institute a theocracy or the Racist Right and their on-going efforts to forge a white ethnostate.

Wake me up when AOC is old enough to run... because I am SO very tired, all the time, because I feel like the country is an inch and a half from breaking into Civil War.

I feel you, but consider that Mitch McConnell is also up in 2020. A strong Dem candidate could get enough people out to vote strait ticket to get rid of Trump and McConnell without having to use the 2nd amendment at all.

I think this is probably our last chance to avoid armed revolution to take back the country, so we need to try our best.

Jun 18, 2019#6

Hailey Knight

I thought Harris had a decent shot but she's gone quiet. It's funny how O'Rourke could've kept steaming ahead with midterm momentum, but decided to keep his cards close just long enough to blow his chances.

So it's going to be Warren in the primary and then whoever wins that. I wish Larry Hogan would keep threatening to run for the Republican nom if only to distract them.

But pretty much this:

AshburnerX said:
Wake me up when AOC is old enough to run...

Jun 18, 2019#7

Dei

It would be great if the giant turtle lost, but I think he's pretty entrenched at this point. Maybe I'll be proven wrong.

Jun 18, 2019#8

Bubble181

I'm fairly sure Mitch and Donald are staying in. Whether or not anyone will try to stop them is another thing.

That said...I dunno. Biden has a lot of benefits and might end up being the candidate, but he'd lose in the general. Two old (really old- seriously, Trump was the oldest ever when he began! Come on! Die off already, generation crap!) white men? That won't draw anyone from the left. Bern had his chance and lost it - any votes he'll win for being an old white man he'll lose for accepting the title of socialist.
Among the women, ehhh....Warren is the "safe" bet, but I don't think she'll make it.
I don't really know much about Buttigieg, what I've read I've liked, but him being gay is probably still too big of a hurdle. Wouldn't be an issue in developed countries, but in the USA? Ehhhh.
I'm not actually convinced right now that there's anyone with the charisma, star power, experience and lack of skeletons in the closet you'd need to win against Trump. Obama III isn't an option, and AOC is too young - though she, at least, might have been able to bring out the Berni voters.
Honestly, the person who'd probably have the best chance of beating Trump is Pelosi, but she's not running.

Jun 18, 2019#9

GasBandit

Beto O'Rourke's still a contender, IMO. I mean, I wouldn't vote for him personally, but he came remarkably close to kicking Ted Cruz out of his senate seat. In Texas.

Jun 18, 2019#10

AshburnerX

Bubble181 said:
Honestly, the person who'd probably have the best chance of beating Trump is Pelosi, but she's not running.

Pelosi has the Hillary problem, in that they've had over a decade to demonize her and turn people against her. As more... her utter cowardice in not even attempting to impeach Trump (and the rest of the party for not removing her for it) tells me I'd rather just not at vote at all if she was the nominee. If she doesn't want Trump gone, fine... have 4 more years of him and let the deaths be on her head.

Jun 18, 2019#11

blotsfan

What it would take for Gas to vote for a democrat:

~~Republican opponent is running literal concentration camps~~

Jun 18, 2019#12

Gruebeard

GasBandit said:
Beto O'Rourke's still a contender, IMO. I mean, I wouldn't vote for him personally, but he came remarkably close to kicking Ted Cruz out of his senate seat. In Texas.

Well, then. When 2020 comes around and O'Rourke loses to Trump by losing Texas by a single vote, I'm blaming Armageddon on you.

Jun 18, 2019#13

GasBandit

blotsfan said:
What it would take for Gas to vote for a democrat:

~~Republican opponent is running literal concentration camps~~

I'm not voting republican either, Mr strawman.

Jun 18, 2019#14

blotsfan

I know. The status quo is fine so it's not worth doing whatever you can to stop the bleeding.

Jun 18, 2019#15

GasBandit

blotsfan said:
I know. The status quo is fine so it's not worth doing whatever you can to stop the bleeding.

Well, the serious answer to that question, of what would it take for GB to vote democrat is the candidate:

Would have to openly and loudly declare themselves to be firmly pro 2nd amendment rights
Would have to openly and loudly declare themselves committed to non-government-controlled solutions to the healthcare problems of the country (for example, the Million Payer Plan)

There's some other things that might be nice, but if you can get me a democrat candidate that will adhere to those two things, I'll loudly and proudly pull that D lever to dethrone trump.

But if you're not willing to move to my values, you can't shame me for voting for refusing to vote for turd sandwich instead of giant douche.

Jun 18, 2019#16

blotsfan

Things Gas finds more important than stopping concentration camps:

Owning murder toys.
Making sure poor people can't get health care.

Jun 18, 2019#17

GasBandit

blotsfan said:
Things Gas finds more important than stopping concentration camps:

Owning murder toys.
Making sure poor people can't get health care.

Things Blotsfan finds more important than stopping concentration camps:

Advancing agendas that undermine constitutionally-guaranteed rights.

Jun 18, 2019#18

blotsfan

I'd vote for Biden if he wins the nomination.

Jun 18, 2019#19

GasBandit

blotsfan said:
I'd vote for Biden if he wins the nomination.

So you're willing to vote for a candidate that aligns with your political beliefs.

What a coincidence, so am I.

Jun 18, 2019#20

blotsfan

Lolz

Jun 18, 2019#21

PatrThom

blotsfan said:
I'd vote for Biden if he wins the nomination.

So you’re willing to vote for a candidate who lies about his record, gets his best words from other people’s mouths, and who can’t keep his hands to himself?

—Patrick

Jun 18, 2019#22

blotsfan

Vs the alternative?

Jun 18, 2019#23

evilmike

The Orlando Sentinel editorial board has announced their endorsement for the 2020 Presidential Election, "Not Donald Trump".

Jun 18, 2019#24

PatrThom

blotsfan said:
Vs the alternative?

At this point, I don’t consider Trump an actual candidate. Even if he wins the nomination. Like evilmike says, I expect either the bluest wave ever, or rampant voter suppression so blatant that any attempts to explain away its necessity will be dismissed as the lies they are.

—Patrick

Jun 18, 2019#25

figmentPez

PatrThom said:
At this point, I don’t consider Trump an actual candidate. Even if he wins the nomination. Like evilmike says, I expect either the bluest wave ever, or rampant voter suppression so blatant that any attempts to explain away its necessity will be dismissed as the lies they are.

I expect a declaration of martial law before the election can even be held, and an attempt to suspend the election process indefinitely.

Jun 18, 2019#26

Tress

figmentPez said:
I expect a declaration of martial law before the election can even be held, and an attempt to suspect the election process indefinitely.

I expect the same thing that happened in 2016: older conservative white people, terrified of whatever Fox News tells them to fear, spread out over enough southern and midwestern states to overcome the highly concentrated liberal strongholds like California and New York. They take one look at a gay/female/socialist/“evil liberal” Democrat and vote Trump even though they don’t actually like Trump all that much. Tribalism wins these days.

Jun 19, 2019#27

Dave

Remember, most people on the right who consume nothing but conservative news sources, think the Meuller report completely exonerated Trump. In their eyes he's done nothing wrong and is succeeding at everything.

These are the same idiots who voted him in the first time, people. Trump not only might not get beaten in a landslide, he could win again.

Jun 19, 2019#28

blotsfan

If there's one thing I learned in 2016 it's to never overestimate the American people.

Jun 19, 2019#29

Tiger Tsang

Dave said:
Remember, most people on the right who consume nothing but conservative news sources, think the Meuller report completely exonerated Trump. In their eyes he's done nothing wrong and is succeeding at everything.

These are the same idiots who voted him in the first time, people. Trump not only might not get beaten in a landslide, he could win again.

Going from bad to worst

Stupidity > unwitting ignorance > willful ignorance > pick your -ism

Jun 19, 2019#30

Dave

The human average IQ is somewhere between 90 & 110. That means that 50% of the population is dumber than that.

Jun 19, 2019#31

@Li3n

Dave said:
That means that 50% of the population is dumber than that.

Actually, no, it doesn't.

The way they average out IQ to 100 means the most populous cohort of people would be within the average, and not below or above it.

blotsfan said:
If there's one thing I learned in 2016 it's to never overestimate the American people.

“No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.” - H.L. Mencken (paraphrased)

Jun 19, 2019#32

blotsfan

@Li3n said:
Actually, no, it doesn't.

The way they average out IQ to 100 means the most populous cohort of people would be within the average, and not below or above it.

Well now we know what segment Dave belongs to :awesome:

Jun 19, 2019#33

figmentPez

Dave said:
The human average IQ is somewhere between 90 & 110. That means that 50% of the population is dumber than that.

68% of people have an IQ between 85 and 115. Fewer than 17% have an IQ lower than 85.

Jun 19, 2019#34

blotsfan

I'm actually really disappointed that Bernie said this. I don't think it's a fair claim to make at all.

Jun 19, 2019#35

Gruebeard

blotsfan said:
I'm actually really disappointed that Bernie said this. I don't think it's a fair claim to make at all.

That sounds like something Trump would say.

Jun 19, 2019#36

Tress

I’m getting real tired of people on the far left seeing centrists as the enemy. If you are so far to one side of the spectrum that the middle looks evil, you need to take a long look in the mirror and think about what you’re doing. It’s one thing to disagree, it’s another to demonize.

Jun 19, 2019#37

PatrThom

Tress said:
It’s one thing to disagree, it’s another to demonize.

Eh, no room for centrists once anaphase has begun.

—Patrick

Jun 19, 2019#38

@Li3n

Gruebeard said:
That sounds like something Trump would say.

Has anyone ever seen them in the same room? Dundundundun....

Post automatically merged: Jun 19, 2019

Tress said:
I’m getting real tired of people on the far left seeing centrists as the enemy. If you are so far to one side of the spectrum that the middle looks evil, you need to take a long look in the mirror and think about what you’re doing. It’s one thing to disagree, it’s another to demonize.

That wholly depends on what the 2 sides are...

I mean, the center between "lets kill all the white people!" and "let's not!" is killing half of the white people...

Jun 19, 2019#39

Dei

Plus Bernie is only a "Democrat" when election season comes around.

Jun 19, 2019#40

Ravenpoe

Tress said:
I’m getting real tired of people on the far left seeing centrists as the enemy. If you are so far to one side of the spectrum that the middle looks evil, you need to take a long look in the mirror and think about what you’re doing. It’s one thing to disagree, it’s another to demonize.

Centrism, by it's definition, favors the status quo, which is also what conservatives fight to uphold. And while centrism isn't the same as the far right of moving to facism, it doesn't help.

To give a better perspective, and use someone much better as speaking than myself, take a look at what Martin Luther King Jr said about "moderate whites" during the fight for civil rights.

"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."

Jun 19, 2019#41

Tress

Two counter-arguments:

I would argue that Conservatives fight to wind back the clock and restore systems of racism, sexism, and oppression. For example, a recent Conservative movement in support of voter ID laws is really an effort to restrict voting rights of minorities and lower class people. So it’s not mainting the status quo, but rather pulling society farther right.

Which leads me to counter-argument #2: I think American centrism is progressive, just slower than the far-left wants. The center wants to work towards making life more fair, more equal, more just. They just want to do it in a way that doesn’t burn everything else to the ground in the process.

But hey, maybe I’m projecting. It’s just that all my life whenever I meet someone on the left (not just left-of-center) they want revolution NOW and aren’t willing to think of anyone else’s point of view, or the costs of breaking society to get what they want.

Jun 19, 2019#42

Bubble181

Yes, and I understand that, and I'm still inclined to disagree. I know some people think Great People from the Past can never make mistakes and such - just look at the Founding Fathers worship many in the US tend to display, but also the way some people think anything in Latin is wise.

Jun 19, 2019#43

phil

I think American centrism is progressive, just slower than the far-left wants. The center wants to work towards making life more fair, more equal, more just. They just want to do it in a way that doesn’t burn everything else to the ground in the process.

And this sums up my problem with so called centerism. For you (not you, Tress, you the hypothetical centerist reading this) it's ok to take things slowly and wait for everyone to get comfortable with the idea of progressive ideas. Like when Boogie said that marriage equality should have waited another 10 years when people would be more comfortable with it. But what that's saying is that marriage equality is less important than... people's feelings? Like not being able to see a sick loved one in the hospital is less important than parents having to explain to their kids that sometimes men love men?

I mean I get the idea. If we just kinda ...let things happen then we don't have to have this constant back and forth, right? But some things we just actually don't have time for. Climate change needs to be addressed 10 years ago. People are going to die waiting for people to get comfortable with the idea of police accountability.

So we can play the slow game, but it's going to cost lives. Some children will never see their parents again. Some people will die because they didn't get their insulin.

I get that centerists aren't bad people. Hell most are good. But they're good men who do nothing and in the meantime evil is triumphant. So yes, I'm frustrated with them.

Jun 19, 2019#44

PatrThom

@Li3n said:
the center between "lets kill all the white people!" and "let's not!" is killing half of the white people...

By that logic, so are "Let's maim all the white people!" or "Let's make all white people hemiplegic!"

--Patrick

Jun 19, 2019#45

AshburnerX

American Centrism is still pretty far right, politically speaking, because the Right keeps pulling the middle towards them and going further right. Telling leftists their views are extreme is pointless because we're so far Right at the moment that ANY change seems extreme. Also...

Jun 19, 2019#46

Tress

AshburnerX said:
American Centrism is still pretty far right, politically speaking, because the Right keeps pulling the middle towards them and going further right. Telling leftists their views are extreme is pointless because we're so far Right at the moment that ANY change seems extreme. Also...

View attachment 31690

So... based on the comic, being centrist = supporting murder. Wow.

I think I see @Gared ‘s point. Buh bye.

(From the thread, not the whole forum)

Jun 19, 2019#47

Ravenpoe

Tress said:
So... based on the comic, being centrist = supporting murder. Wow.

I think I see @Gared ‘s point. Buh bye.

No one is talking about you or claiming you support murder. You asked why progressives don't like centrists, this is the ideology of why.

And it's not like I don't understand centrism. I used to be very centrist myself. But that centrism was born of privilege because I am a mostly hetero (regardless of what @Bubble181 says

) white cis man. From my point of view the far left were rabble rousers. Yeah, I agree with you but why must you be so radical about it?

That viewpoint eventually faded. If someone is of a marginalized or oppressed group, it's really hard to say hey, settle down, why you gotta rock the boat? Asking why does change need to happen now is the same as supporting the current status quo. Oppression is never ended by the oppressors, and if you ask to wait for what is right to come tomorrow instead of today, then tomorrow never comes.

Jun 19, 2019#48

phil

Tress said:
So... based on the comic, being centrist = supporting murder. Wow.

I think I see @Gared ‘s point. Buh bye.

I mean... It's a comic. It has to make it's point in a limited amount of space and is going to exaggerate a bit to cover a lot of ground quickly.

Like, it's just pointing out that some issues don't HAVE a center. It's not saying that centerists love murder.

Jun 19, 2019#49

Ravenpoe

phil said:
I mean... It's a comic. It has to make it's point in a limited amount of space and is going to exaggerate a bit to cover a lot of ground quickly.

Like, it's just pointing out that some issues don't HAVE a center. It's not saying that centerists love murder.

I'll say it, CENTRISTS FUCKING LOVE MURDER! COME FITE ME!

Except don't, because I'm out of shape, and you'll murder me.

Jun 19, 2019#50

phil

Ravenpoe said:
I'll say it, CENTRISTS FUCKING LOVE MURDER! COME FITE ME!

Except don't, because I'm out of shape, and you'll murder me.

I won't murder you because I'm not a centerist

Jun 19, 2019#51

Hailey Knight

I keep typing responses and then deleting them because I'm not sure how much deeper I want to get involved in this thread.

Trump is so bad that we're at "anyone but Trump," which means someone even slightly less bad than Trump looks good. Center is not where it was in 2015 in that regard, and probably a lot of other things.

Jun 19, 2019#52

AshburnerX

And it's not like we've even seen the field yet. For all we know, Trump might actually decide to not run after this. I mean... I doubt it, but I could see him trying to make a deal for a pardon from a future Republican president for his silence and cooperation.

Jun 19, 2019#53

Ravenpoe

AshburnerX said:
And it's not like we've even seen the field yet. For all we know, Trump might actually decide to not run after this. I mean... I doubt it, but I could see him trying to make a deal for a pardon from a future Republican president for his silence and cooperation.

Hah, I don't ever see that happening. That would require not only Trump being savvy, but to actually think he could be held to any accountability, and neither of those are possible.

Jun 20, 2019#54

Krisken

Maybe his poor health will catch up with him and we will have no charisma Pence to go up against.

Jun 20, 2019#55

Dave

If Pence gets into office and Elizabeth Warren gets the nomination there will be no debates because Pence's wife won't allow him alone on a stage with another woman.

Jun 20, 2019#56

DarkAudit

Krisken said:
Maybe his poor health will catch up with him and we will have no charisma Pence to go up against.

The shock of not being the healthiest anything ever? :rofl:

Jun 20, 2019#57

blotsfan

Dave said:
If Pence gets into office and Elizabeth Warren gets the nomination there will be no debates because Pence's wife won't allow him alone on a stage with another woman.

Nah it's ok. Mother will be watching. Mother is always watching.

Jun 20, 2019#58

Bubble181

Ravenpoe said:
Hah, I don't ever see that happening. That would require not only Trump being savvy, but to actually think he could be held to any accountability, and neither of those are possible.

It would also mean he faces the possibility he might lose, which, in his world, is impossible - he's doing the very best possible in all polls, people love him, he's adored and there's not even a contest, really. Why bargain with some other would-be president if you'll just get re-elected anyway?

Jun 20, 2019#59

DarkAudit

Bubble181 said:
It would also mean he faces the possibility he might lose, which, in his world, is impossible - he's doing the very best possible in all polls, people love him, he's adored and there's not even a contest, really. Why bargain with some other would-be president if you'll just get re-elected anyway?

Maybe someone can dig up and revive Old Man Fred's rotting corpse so he can go tell his son how much of a piece of shit he is again. :devil:

Jun 20, 2019#60

@Li3n

Tress said:
So... based on the comic, being centrist = supporting murder. Wow.

What was that again about demonizing your opponents?

I mean, for fucks sakes, the comic even uses the word "sometimes"...

Post automatically merged: Jun 20, 2019

PatrThom said:
By that logic, so are "Let's maim all the white people!" or "Let's make all white people hemiplegic!"

--Patrick

But then the "kill" side doesn't get anything it wanted, since all the white ppl r still alive.... .

Jun 20, 2019#61

Bubble181

@Li3n said:
What was that again about demonizing your opponents?

I mean, for fucks sakes, the comic even uses the word "sometimes"...

Post automatically merged: Jun 20, 2019

But then the "kill" side doesn't get anything it wanted, since all the white ppl r still alive.... .

How about we just make them all braindead with mind-pulping reality tv and/or crappy education?

Jun 20, 2019#62

PatrThom

@Li3n said:
But then the "kill" side doesn't get anything it wanted, since all the white ppl r still alive.... .

Sure it does. In both examples, you’ve only half-killed them, either by killing them only halfway, or by only killing their bottom half.

—Patrick

Jun 23, 2019#63

Frank

Holy shit, is Biden really the frontrunner?

Fuck, if people thought Hillary depressed the Dem turnout, how do you think Joe "We need to show more empathy to lynch mobs" Biden is going to fare?

Jun 23, 2019#64

Dei

Frank said:
Holy shit, is Biden really the frontrunner?

Fuck, if people thought Hillary depressed the Dem turnout, how do you think Joe "We need to show more empathy to lynch mobs" Biden is going to fare?

Primaries haven't even started yet, so I wouldn't think too much of poll numbers yet. Most people probably haven't even started thinking about it yet, just the really dedicated.

Jun 24, 2019#65

@Li3n

PatrThom said:
Sure it does. In both examples, you’ve only half-killed them, either by killing them only halfway, or by only killing their bottom half.

—Patrick

You know what they call half-killing someone over here?

"Not killing them!"

Jun 24, 2019#66

Hailey Knight

We're at 25 candidates and I don't know if that's abnormal.

Jun 24, 2019#67

blotsfan

Hailey Knight said:
We're at 25 candidates and I don't know if that's abnormal.

It's very much abnormal. People talked about how weird it was that there were 17 republicans last time around. Thankfully there's nobody (as of now) who is a trump-level disaster in the field.

Jun 24, 2019#68

phil

Frank said:
Holy shit, is Biden really the frontrunner?

Fuck, if people thought Hillary depressed the Dem turnout, how do you think Joe "We need to show more empathy to lynch mobs" Biden is going to fare?

Jun 24, 2019#69

AshburnerX

It's not abnormal because poll data is worthless in a 24/7 live firm environment, so no one has enough information to solidify around a candidate. It certainly doesn't help that anyone and everyone can grab at least SOME eyes, so if you don't let them into the game, it suddenly looks like you're trying to keep them out (which makes people want them MORE). There's also the simple fact that people with what would formerly be considered fringe ideas aren't considered fringe anymore... just like the Neo Nazis and White Supremacists were able to find each other and organize, so too have the people on the left.

Oddly enough, Trump is in the best position because people know he can at least win (because he's done it before).

tl;dr version - Everyone's on the board until people fail to keep attention.

Jun 24, 2019#70

Dei

I am really glad that primaries are a ballot in Colorado this year and the caucuses are informal, because going to a caucus is shit enough when there's only two real candidates. Hopefully most of them weed themselves out before then too.

Jun 24, 2019#71

Eriol

Here's a relatively right-wing Canadian view of the candidate field as of Saturday:

Jun 25, 2019#72

Frank

Jesus fucking Christ what a God damn moron. Don't take part in our neverending cycle of garbage war? THEN YER FOOKIN TAXED MAAAAYATE. Get back on the skateboard and think of something else you dipshit.

Jun 25, 2019#73

Tress

Well, “say stupid shit” IS a way to make yourself stand out in a crowded primary.

Jun 26, 2019#74

PatrThom

My wife's take on hearing about this: "Well, that's a novel way to go after the wealthy."

--Patrick

Jun 26, 2019#75

Ravenpoe

PatrThom said:
My wife's take on hearing about this: "Well, that's a novel way to go after the wealthy."

--Patrick

Yeah, but a fine on the wealthy is one they can easily pay, whereas the poor are left to have to send their children into further wars.

Jun 26, 2019#76

blotsfan

I like it from a perspective of "this will make war way more unpopular among the masses."

That being said, if we made health care available to everyone who needed it, we wouldn't need a VA anymore soooo....

Jun 26, 2019#77

Ravenpoe

blotsfan said:
I like it from a perspective of "this will make war way more unpopular among the masses."

Except the masses do not get a say in what wars are started. That's the politicians being paid by the defense contractors and weapon manufacturing lobbyists.

Jun 26, 2019#78

blotsfan

I guess it was a place of naïveté of assuming that people who are mad about a dumb war would vote accordingly.

Jun 26, 2019#79

phil

The first debate is about to start. Remember: take a drink when Warren says she has a plan for that. One drink when you don't remember who this person is. Finish your drink when they ignore the question to slam dunk on Trump.

Jun 26, 2019#80

Dei

phil said:
The first debate is about to start. Remember: take a drink when Warren says she has a plan for that. One drink when you don't remember who this person is. Finish your drink when they ignore the question to slam dunk on Trump.

But I don't want to die.

Jun 26, 2019#81

Hailey Knight

Jun 26, 2019#82

phil

About 30 minutes in and I'm ready for Thunderdome rules.

Jun 26, 2019#83

phil

Warren is at least wrapping it up when they call time. Granted shes got plenty of time otherwise but still, it's nice.

Jun 26, 2019#84

phil

On the one had I don't appreciate the interrupting but De Blasio knows he has to take his time since they won't give it to him

Jun 26, 2019#85

phil

Someone tell Chicago that if they take Whataburger they have to take Beto too.

Jun 26, 2019#86

phil

Tim Ryan looks like he wondered on stage by accident but I'm picking up what he's putting down.

Jun 26, 2019#87

phil

Moderator: how would you deal with Mitch McConnell?

Candidate: okay, so here's the thing about guns....

Jun 26, 2019#88

phil

Jay Inslee looks like a Frankenstein. Boom, roasted.

Jun 26, 2019#89

phil

Moderator : Congressman Delaney, we will get to you

Narrator: they would not

Jun 26, 2019#90

phil

Ok, livetweet mode over.

Initial post debate thought mode engage!

Julian Castro needs to be getting every minute of coverage that is being spent on Beto and Mayor Pete. He went wayyy up in my book after this.

Warren and Castro walked away from this looking good. A few others like Booker and Gabbard had moments. Everyone else can drop out now.

Jun 26, 2019#91

blotsfan

phil said:
Moderator: how would you deal with Mitch McConnell?

Candidate: okay, so here's the thing about guns....

I'm planning on watching it tomorrow but I really like where this candidate is going.

Jun 26, 2019#92

phil

blotsfan said:
I'm planning on watching it tomorrow but I really like where this candidate is going.

Spoiler: it's like 3 of them in a row

Edit: oh I just got what you meant. Unfortunately no call to arms yet.

Yet

Jun 27, 2019#93

Dei

I wonder how many of the other group will show us their Spanish skills.

Jun 27, 2019#94

WasabiPoptart

Dei said:
I wonder how many of the other group will show us their Spanish skills.

It might go something like this:

Jun 27, 2019#95

Gruebeard

phil said:
Moderator : Congressman Delaney, we will get to you

Ron Howard: they would not

FTFY

Jun 28, 2019#96

sixpackshaker

Kamala Harris was acting in that debate the way I expected Hilary to handle Donald 3 years ago.

Jun 28, 2019#97

phil

Finally watching part 2: first blood

Joe Biden does not know who this mouthy broad is but he has half a mind to go have words with her husband.

Jun 28, 2019#98

phil

I can hear Chuck Todd dying on the inside.

Jun 28, 2019#99

phil

Sanders: that's a misrepresentation

Maddow: that's a direct quote

Jun 28, 2019#100

DarkAudit

Dear Bernie and Joe, It's not ageism. It's not discrimination. It's your generation has done enough damage, so get the fuck out of the way.

Jun 28, 2019#101

phil

If Eric swalwell and Biden just fistfight in the parking lot I'd be real happy

Jun 28, 2019#102

Krisken

DarkAudit said:
Dear Bernie and Joe, It's not ageism. It's not discrimination. It's your generation has done enough damage, so get the fuck out of the way.

I don't know about damage. It's more "You had your time, please stop trying to direct and let those in a better position take charge and fix what you already know is broken."

Jun 28, 2019#103

DarkAudit

Krisken said:
I don't know about damage. It's more "You had your time, please stop trying to direct and let those in a better position take charge and fix what you already know is broken."

White guy boomers? I'll stick with damage. It's time to shove them off the stage if they won't go quietly.

Jun 28, 2019#104

Krisken

DarkAudit said:
White guy boomers? I'll stick with damage. It's time to shove them off the stage if they won't go quietly.

What? I didn't say any of that? I didn't even say who I'm pulling for?

Jun 28, 2019#105

DarkAudit

Krisken said:
What? I didn't say any of that? I didn't even say who I'm pulling for?

You were questioning my use of the term damage, yes? So I clarified.

Jun 29, 2019#106

Hailey Knight

I'm at Harris, Warren, or Castro.

Jul 5, 2019#107

Gruebeard

Okay, I'm looking forward to a USA run by President Castro

Jul 31, 2019#108

Hailey Knight

Delaney really made an ass of himself.

Jul 31, 2019#109

PatrThom

While it lasts:

EDIT: Aaaaaand it's gone (democratic debate).

A response:

--Patrick

Aug 9, 2019#110

Dei

Y
I
K
E
S

Aug 9, 2019#111

Ravenpoe

Dei said:
Y
I
K
E
S

Good, maybe he'll drop out now and stop centristing everything up.

Aug 9, 2019#112

@Li3n

It's fun how even people trying not to be racist still have it ingrained in their thinking because of how/when they where raised.

Aug 9, 2019#113

blotsfan

I'm old enough to remember when saying stupid shit was Biden's most well-known attribute. Remember "articulate"?

Aug 9, 2019#114

GasBandit

blotsfan said:
I'm old enough to remember when saying stupid shit was Biden's most well-known attribute. Remember "articulate"?

Stand up, Chuck!

Yeah, there were so many, it was a given that he was the stupidest guy ever in front of a microphone, and I was always flabbergasted that anyone could consider him seriously as a candidate for president.

But then, well, Trump came along, and I guess that really sealed the deal on constantly saying stupid shit not being a disqualifier.

Aug 9, 2019#115

Bubble181

GasBandit said:
Stand up, Chuck!

Yeah, there were so many, it was a given that he was the stupidest guy ever in front of a microphone, and I was always flabbergasted that anyone could consider him seriously as a candidate for president.

But then, well, Trump came along, and I guess that really sealed the deal on constantly saying stupid shit not being a disqualifier.

Ehh, stupid and goofs are different things. Dubyah Nukular Power was president, after all.

Aug 15, 2019#116

blotsfan

Alas, poor Hickenlooper, we barely knew ye.

Which is probably why he's dropping out.

Aug 22, 2019#117

Dei

blotsfan said:
Alas, poor Hickenlooper, we barely knew ye.

Which is probably why he's dropping out.

He's going to try to get rid of Gardner, which, is probably a terrible idea, because while a lot of people want Gardner gone, Hickenlooper is not really super popular and will probably help drive a lot of apathy (non) voting. We'll see if he even makes it on the ticket.

Aug 22, 2019#118

blotsfan

Eh, voter turnout in presidential elections is almost entirely driven by the presidential candidates.

Aug 23, 2019#119

blotsfan

Seth Moulton has dropped out.

I was thinking "wouldn't it be funny to do the hunger game death sound for each time a candidate drops out" and then I remembered that was Colbert's bit during the 2016 republican primary and holy shit that feels like 50 years ago.

Aug 23, 2019#120

sixpackshaker

Aug 28, 2019#121

blotsfan

Gillibrand out

Aug 28, 2019#122

Dei

blotsfan said:
Gillibrand out

Thank God.

Aug 28, 2019#123

Dei

blotsfan said:
Eh, voter turnout in presidential elections is almost entirely driven by the presidential candidates.

I mean, Colorado is a mail in state, but I guarantee that there are plenty of Dems in CO who have a low enough opinion of Hickenlooper to either leave their senate spot blank or vote 3rd party instead.

Sep 7, 2019#124

Hailey Knight

I don't know anything about Andrew Yang but I'm loving this #TrumpFearsYang thing going on.

Sep 7, 2019#125

blotsfan

Yang supporters are shaping up to be the "our guy lost! Then fuck you we're voting trump" of 2020.

Sep 7, 2019#126

AshburnerX

blotsfan said:
Yang supporters are shaping up to be the "our guy lost! Then fuck you we're voting trump" of 2020.

Half of that was Bernie's fault; when you lose, you're SUPPOSED to throw in behind the winner so half the base doesn't stay home. Instead, he took his voters and went home.

I'm tired of this shit from the Democrats: people are dying because of your fucking egos. Get in line and support the nominee.

Sep 9, 2019#127

ScytheRexx

AshburnerX said:
Instead, he took his voters and went home.

Maybe my memory is foggy, but I could have swore Bernie throwing his support behind Hillary after she was nominated.

Found it.

Of course this was a month later so...

Sep 9, 2019#128

evilmike

ScytheRexx said:
Maybe my memory is foggy, but I could have swore Bernie throwing his support behind Hillary after she was nominated.

Found it.

Of course this was a month later so...

Also,

Sep 20, 2019#129

blotsfan

Goodnight, sweet prince. The only dem who could possibly lose New York. Not sure how he thought this would go.

Sep 20, 2019#130

blotsfan

Most sensible thing Biden has said in awhile.

Sep 20, 2019#131

PatrThom

blotsfan said:
Most sensible thing Biden has said in awhile.

That's some good r/selfawarewolves material.

--Patrick

Oct 3, 2019#132

blotsfan

I don't think there's anything that can replicate the exact mix of laughter, fear, and excitement the way seeing that Jacob Wohl is trending does.

The result:

Oct 3, 2019#133

phil

I'd like off the rollercoaster now, thank you.

Oct 3, 2019#134

blotsfan

The followup tweet is also great.

Oct 3, 2019#135

Frank

I know Jacob Wohl has publicly committed multiple crimes. How the hell is he not in jail? He's literally the dumbest person alive. Man, being a white kid from an affluent family is kick-ass.

Oct 3, 2019#136

figmentPez

Oct 3, 2019#137

blotsfan

I can't believe this wasn't on the level.

Oct 3, 2019#138

ScytheRexx

Why the fuck does this even matter. Donald Trump got elected getting spanked by magazines with his face from his pornstar mistress. Why the hell does it matter if Warran gave some dude a back scar while fucking? "Oh no she is a woman who has SEX! SCANDALOUS!"

Oct 3, 2019#139

blotsfan

ScytheRexx said:
Why the fuck does this even matter. Donald Trump got elected getting spanked by magazines with his face from his pornstar mistress. Why the hell does it matter if Warran gave some dude a back scar while fucking? "Oh no she is a woman who has SEX! SCANDALOUS!"

Nobody expects republicans to have any ethics or morals. They're held to absolutely zero expectations. It's one of the reasons this is so difficult.

Oct 3, 2019#140

blotsfan

Fan-fucking-tastic

Oct 3, 2019#141

figmentPez

ScytheRexx said:
Why the fuck does this even matter. Donald Trump got elected getting spanked by magazines with his face from his pornstar mistress. Why the hell does it matter if Warran gave some dude a back scar while fucking? "Oh no she is a woman who has SEX! SCANDALOUS!"

It shouldn't matter, but you know damn well it does matter, precisely because she's a woman, and a democrat. People will care about it, even though they don't care about Trump doing much much worse.

Oct 3, 2019#142

PatrThom

The "scandal" isn't about who's sleeping with whom, it's about a woman who (allegedly) flagrantly and demonstrably ignores her proper place.

--Patrick

Oct 3, 2019#143

Dave

I'm actually torn when it comes to the notion of free college. On the one hand, it does lead to a more intelligent and educated populace. On the other, it severely devalues the education that is received. Now, if they were saying state schools are free and you can get a two year education like an associates or even a trade school license but that to continue on would cost, I'd be all for it.

Right now in the workplace, a Master's degree gets you the jobs that a Bachelor's degree used to. And more and more entry level jobs are requiring bachelor's degrees, which is just insane.

Oct 3, 2019#144

AshburnerX

Dave said:
I'm actually torn when it comes to the notion of free college. On the one hand, it does lead to a more intelligent and educated populace. On the other, it severely devalues the education that is received. Now, if they were saying state schools are free and you can get a two year education like an associates or even a trade school license but that to continue on would cost, I'd be all for it.

Right now in the workplace, a Master's degree gets you the jobs that a Bachelor's degree used to. And more and more entry level jobs are requiring bachelor's degrees, which is just insane.

Is your position really "People won't value it unless they have to pay for it, so we should keep making people become slaves to debt for a chance at a livelihood"?

Because that's depressing as hell.

Oct 3, 2019#145

Dave

AshburnerX said:
Is your position really "People won't value it unless they have to pay for it, so we should keep making people become slaves to debt for a chance at a livelihood"?

Because that's depressing as hell.

No, it's more: "People should be able to see whether or not they are cut out for college without going into massive debt or learn a trade for free."

There's a reason that college grads are (normally) sought after. Giving everyone an education for free would completely devalue the education given. And you can say, "Well, we'd then have to go by GPA or something." but grade inflation is a real thing as most universities are hyper aware of the grades their students receive and use this as a marketing ploy.

There is no good answer for this. Free is bad. I would love to see an increase in grants to lower income people.

But let me put this another way. If college were free at all levels, why would you ever hire a person with an Associates degree? Or even a Bachelor's degree?

Sorry, man. but at a certain level it HAS to hold value or none of it does.

edit: By the way, I'm writing this as someone who holds MASSIVE student loan debt. Huge. I'm never going to get social security or be able to retire. I fully understand the slave to debt thing because that's me!!

Oct 3, 2019#146

Dei

Dave said:
No, it's more: "People should be able to see whether or not they are cut out for college without going into massive debt or learn a trade for free."

There's a reason that college grads are (normally) sought after. Giving everyone an education for free would completely devalue the education given. And you can say, "Well, we'd then have to go by GPA or something." but grade inflation is a real thing as most universities are hyper aware of the grades their students receive and use this as a marketing ploy.

There is no good answer for this. Free is bad. I would love to see an increase in grants to lower income people.

But let me put this another way. If college were free at all levels, why would you ever hire a person with an Associates degree? Or even a Bachelor's degree?

Sorry, man. but at a certain level it HAS to hold value or none of it does.

College education is already devalued, because it's expected now. It is no longer a bonus on top of your qualifications, it is literally the qualification you need.

That said, I think state schools should be free, but that doesn't mean private colleges can't still exist.

Oct 3, 2019#147

GasBandit

College is a ripoff and a racket, at any price.

Oct 3, 2019#148

ScytheRexx

As someone with a bachelor's degree with a hundred thousand in debt, I think the idea that college degrees would be devalued is asinine. They already have less value because unless you got a bachelor's in business or engineering, no company is going to care about it. They care more about work experience.

I would rather free college become an expected part of working a job then have kids continue to flounder in debt so my bachelor's looks a little nicer (and still barely gets me a job, since it's a bachelor of arts.)

Oct 3, 2019#149

AshburnerX

ScytheRexx said:
As someone with a bachelor's degree with a hundred thousand in debt, I think the idea that college degrees would be devalued is asinine. They already have less value because unless you got a bachelor's in business or engineering, no company is going to care about it. They care more about work experience.

I would rather free college become an expected part of working a job then have kids continue to flounder in debt so my bachelor's looks a little nicer (and still barely gets me a job, since it's a bachelor of arts.)

This is part of it; degrees that produce profit instead of value are over-valued because our system cares more about making money than outputting useful product.

Case in point: We told people that getting philosophy degrees was a ticket to the streets, and now our kids are getting their philosphy from overweight nazis and con-artists the tell them it's not their fault that no one will touch them. Maybe we shoulda spent more money on producing philosophers.

Oct 3, 2019#150

GasBandit

AshburnerX said:
This is part of it; degrees that produce profit instead of value are over-valued because our system cares more about making money than outputting useful product.

Case in point: We told people that getting philosophy degrees was a ticket to the streets, and now our kids are getting their philosphy from overweight nazis and con-artists the tell them it's not their fault that no one will touch them. Maybe we shoulda spent more money on producing philosophers.

Or maybe instead of creating environments specifically made to bolster (often undeserved) self esteem, we should have spent more time teaching people that they can feel good about themselves when they do something good.

Or maybe, instead of trying to toddlerproof the world into safe spaces, we should have taught people to engage with and deal with opposition and things beyond their comfort, instead of chasing everybody into hugboxes, echo chambers, and insulated circle jerks of enforced consensus.

Oct 3, 2019#151

PatrThom

Dave said:
If college were free at all levels, why would you ever hire a person with an Associates degree? Or even a Bachelor's degree?

I'll say the same thing to you as I did to another buddy who despaired about his future when he saw how many people were taking the same classes..."Do you think all of these people are actually going to make it all the way to graduation?"

People are still going to drop out long before they hit the higher levels, even when it's free. They're just not going to get ground through the debt mill afterwards.

GasBandit said:
College is a ripoff and a racket, at any price.

At its worst, college (higher education in general, really) still serves as a sort of "pay to trial multiple fields for a while, see if they're things you actually like, then drop the ones you can't stand" before you exit the hallowed halls and are forced to muddle through the world of unpaid internships.

You really get out of college what you put into it. The people who learn how to take advantage of what academia offers were probably going to succeed in life anyways just because of that attitude. The dude who coasts through on daddy's money was probably going to coast through life on daddy's money anyway, college or no.

--Patrick

Oct 4, 2019#152

@Li3n

Dave said:
Giving everyone an education for free would completely devalue the education given.

Jesus fuck America... this is why everyone thinks you're dumb.

Sorry Dave, but you really drank the flavor-aid on this one.

It's not like free college education is some theoretical thing that hasn't been tried and works quite well in plenty of Eurostani member states...

Dave said:
And you can say, "Well, we'd then have to go by GPA or something." but grade inflation is a real thing as most universities are hyper aware of the grades their students receive and use this as a marketing ploy.

Yeah, and they feel the need to market and attract more students because...

GasBandit said:
College is a ripoff and a racket, at any price.

Yes, that's why i always get my surgery from the local butcher... :rolleyes:

Oct 5, 2019#153

GasBandit

And that, folks, is what they call an "apples to oranges comparison."

Oct 5, 2019#154

PatrThom

More like "You need to be more explicit here in step two."

--Patrick

Oct 6, 2019#155

@Li3n

GasBandit said:
And that, folks, is what they call an "apples to oranges comparison."

Says fruits are a scam... complains about comparing different fruits...

WHA'???!?

Oct 6, 2019#156

GasBandit

@Li3n said:
Says fruits are a scam... complains about comparing different fruits...

WHA'???!?

"Apples are a scam." "Our oranges are just fine, maybe you should make your apples like our oranges."

Dave is right in that a bachelor's (4 year) degree has been devalued (this has nothing to do with doctors). A few generations of parents telling children "you gotta go to college and get a 4 year degree or you'll never make any money" has resulted in a glut of bachelors of X and all our manufacturing labor being outsourced overseas, and our domestic unskilled labor going to first gen immigrants of varying degrees of legal status. Thus we have millenials (and now, Gen Zs) going to school, graduating with a Bachelor's of $80k-in-debt, and moving back in with their parents because they can't find a job because the Boomers aren't retiring, our employment never actually recovered from the 08 crash (they just changed how they did the math so that the numbers looked good), and everybody desperate for work has a Bachelor's degree . And it's not just the joke degrees anymore (remember when we used to chuckle about colleges offering courses in underwater basket weaving?), it's everybody. Employers are still keeping all the hatches battened down from 10 years ago, and safe means keeping those tried-and-tested 60 year olds on the payroll instead of taking a risk and paying to train new college graduates to replace them, and definitely not growing the business because we took so long recovering from the last recession that we're already overdue for the next recession cycle to begin. And the risk-averse climate might actually mean that someone with no degree might actually be a more enticing hire (provided they have experience, which everybody has to have or you don't even get an interview) because they're less of a "risk" because their pay expectations are lower.

The American job market and the European job market are completely different animals, and the structure of the two Academic spheres seem similarly dissimilar. So, yes, what you just said is like telling someone holding a handsaw "I don't understand why you don't just hit the nail with your tool like I am" as you hammer nails.

Oct 6, 2019#157

figmentPez

Does Europe have the same problem as America does with it's attitude towards education and intelligence? My experience in America is that we like the benefits of science, but we don't like actual science. The average American likes the idea of having smart, educated people, but they don't really want them around. Charisma is valued over intelligence. A large portion of the population wants to send kids off to college, and have them come back unchanged except for having a certificate that says they deserve a better paying job. I think there are a lot of college students that go through school with that goal in mind, too.

This is a systemic problem with the American education system. We just want the symbols of learning, not the actual learning itself. There's some bizarre mix of being afraid of intelligence (and fear of being wrong/stupid/etc), combined with thinking that most people can't be taught, throw in a heavy dose of "you have to cheat the system to get anywhere in life", more than a little "colleges are liberal brainwashing", some "only social outcasts care about <insert academic subject here>", and a political system that actively relies on trying to get the most predictable people (aka, the ones that think the least) to be the only ones who consistently go to the pools.

I'm struggling to come up with the ideal analogy, but it's kinda like bullshit bullet points on tech products. Just having a digital camera on a device isn't a selling feature anymore. Hell, having a 10+ megapixel digital camera doesn't mean shit anymore, because there are so many terrible cameras with high pixel counts. But it's actually worse than that, because putting digital camera on a cordless drill, just to have one more bullet point, doesn't benefit anyone. Trying to put everyone through the existing college system is like slapping a digital camera on every electronic product, and expecting that to increase profits for the entire industry.

Oct 6, 2019#158

AshburnerX

figmentPez said:
Does Europe have the same problem as America does with it's attitude towards education and intelligence? My experience in America is that we like the benefits of science, but we don't like actual science. The average American likes the idea of having smart, educated people, but they don't really want them around. Charisma is valued over intelligence. A large portion of the population wants to send kids off to college, and have them come back unchanged except for having a certificate that says they deserve a better paying job. I think there are a lot of college students that go through school with that goal in mind, too.

This is a systemic problem with the American education system. We just want the symbols of learning, not the actual learning itself. There's some bizarre mix of being afraid of intelligence (and fear of being wrong/stupid/etc), combined with thinking that most people can't be taught, throw in a heavy dose of "you have to cheat the system to get anywhere in life", more than a little "colleges are liberal brainwashing", some "only social outcasts care about <insert academic subject here>", and a political system that actively relies on trying to get the most predictable people (aka, the ones that think the least) to be the only ones who consistently go to the pools.

I saw a quote awhile back that made me think about how we view intelligence in America. It went something like "In America, intelligence is the ability to come up with an answer quickly, not thoughtfully, because to answer thoughtfully is force others to reexamine their views and that is something most Americans are unwilling to do." And thoughtful/critical thinking isn't something we really teach in America anymore, at least until the college level. We just teach to the test. We teach people that there is only one answer to a problem, that the answer is easy to grasp, and that trying to go beyond that answer is pointless because it won't get you anything. That there is no point in rocking the boat, because doing that just gets you in trouble. It doesn't help that the OTHER big institution in people's lives (Religion) demands the same kind of thinking. It's not surprising no one wants to trust the views of college grads; it's easier to believe it's brainwashing instead of critical thinking.

That kind of thinking is what gets you people thinking they don't need doctors or scientists or just experts in general; they've been taught that THEY can easily grasp everything they need to know in their lives, so anyone telling them something else must be trying to fool them. They aren't equipped to do their own research, even though there are tools available for them to do it. If someone tells them something, it has never been easier to find out if that is true! Even with every algorithm against you, it's possible to find all the academic research you want. You just have to want to FIND the truth, and no one does.

Oct 6, 2019#159

PatrThom

GasBandit said:
Employers are still keeping all the hatches battened down from 10 years ago

18 years ago, you mean. The business world as a whole retreated into its shell after 9/11 and, except for outliers, has refused to trust anyone (or anything) new since.

figmentPez said:
This is a systemic problem with the American education system. We just want the symbols of learning, not the actual learning itself. There's some bizarre mix of being afraid of intelligence (and fear of being wrong/stupid/etc), combined with thinking that most people can't be taught, throw in a heavy dose of "you have to cheat the system to get anywhere in life", more than a little "colleges are liberal brainwashing", some "only social outcasts care about <insert academic subject here>", and a political system that actively relies on trying to get the most predictable people (aka, the ones that think the least) to be the only ones who consistently go to the [polls].

AshburnerX said:
thoughtful/critical thinking isn't something we really teach in America anymore, at least until the college level. We just teach to the test. We teach people that there is only one answer to a problem, that the answer is easy to grasp, and that trying to go beyond that answer is pointless because it won't get you anything. That there is no point in rocking the boat, because doing that just gets you in trouble. It doesn't help that the OTHER big institution in people's lives (Religion) demands the same kind of thinking.

Our current system of public schooling is designed to supply labor for manufacturing. High schools are designed to turn out workers smart enough to understand what they're being told to do, but conditioned to look to people in authority for their direction. An emphasis is put on herd/team mentality and the cultivation of a desire to belong (Sports!). Anyone who is an independent thinker either drops out early or else puts up with it until they can finally make it to a self-directed education in college. But now this is coming back to bite the country in the ass because all the people born in the 50's who were trained up with us/them our team/your team are the ones in positions of power, and when they're not dutifully following the directions of someone else who did go to college, they're busy working to ensure that at least "the other team" can't win.

So yes, the world is run by the charismatic rather than the academic, because they're the ones who draw the biggest following/raise the biggest armies, and because we've been training the majority for over half a century now to follow anyone with a confident enough heading without questioning why they're going that direction.

--Patrick

Oct 6, 2019#160

@Li3n

GasBandit said:
"Apples are a scam." "Our oranges are just fine, maybe you should make your apples like our oranges."

Dave is right in that a bachelor's (4 year) degree has been devalued (this has nothing to do with doctors). A few generations of parents telling children "you gotta go to college and get a 4 year degree or you'll never make any money" has resulted in a glut of bachelors of X and all our manufacturing labor being outsourced overseas, and our domestic unskilled labor going to first gen immigrants of varying degrees of legal status. Thus we have millenials (and now, Gen Zs) going to school, graduating with a Bachelor's of $80k-in-debt, and moving back in with their parents because they can't find a job because the Boomers aren't retiring, our employment never actually recovered from the 08 crash (they just changed how they did the math so that the numbers looked good), and everybody desperate for work has a Bachelor's degree . And it's not just the joke degrees anymore (remember when we used to chuckle about colleges offering courses in underwater basket weaving?), it's everybody. Employers are still keeping all the hatches battened down from 10 years ago, and safe means keeping those tried-and-tested 60 year olds on the payroll instead of taking a risk and paying to train new college graduates to replace them, and definitely not growing the business because we took so long recovering from the last recession that we're already overdue for the next recession cycle to begin. And the risk-averse climate might actually mean that someone with no degree might actually be a more enticing hire (provided they have experience, which everybody has to have or you don't even get an interview) because they're less of a "risk" because their pay expectations are lower.

TIL, IN AMERICA, doctors don't count as going to college...

And yet you guys seem to have no problem H1B1-ing people with "our orange"...

Also, look up the changes in retirement ages in Europe if you really think you're fucking special because you're making your old people work more...

GasBandit said:
The American job market and the European job market are completely different animals, and the structure of the two Academic spheres seem similarly dissimilar. So, yes, what you just said is like telling someone holding a handsaw "I don't understand why you don't just hit the nail with your tool like I am" as you hammer nails.

Well, i couldn't be possibly telling someone with a handsaw in their hands to switch to a hammer, like non-idiots, when they want to hit a nail...

GasBandit said:
all our manufacturing labor being outsourced overseas

Oh right, i always forget that you worship capitalism, and yet delude yourself that it isn't the most capitalist thing ever to go where you can pay workers the least amount of money, and no amount of uneducated populous will make wages in the US be able to compete with places where you can live off 1$/day...

Hell, even within the US, how many citizens would be willing to live dozens in a house and work 12h in the sun like the illegals are so that your farms can operate as they currently are?

Post automatically merged: Oct 6, 2019

PatrThom said:
Our current system of public schooling is designed to supply labor for manufacturing.
--Patrick

You can blame the Prussians for that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_education_system#United_States

(For Gas: oh, look, clearly the american system can't be compared to the european one, since it's based on... oh, wait...)

Oct 7, 2019#161

GasBandit

@Li3n said:
TIL, IN AMERICA, doctors don't count as going to college...

No, it doesn't. It's like saying that getting a college degree doesn't count as going to kindergarten.

Man, it's been a while, so I'd forgotten the sheer willful ignorance you insist on bringing to bear on every conversation... for example...

@Li3n said:
Also, look up the changes in retirement ages in Europe if you really think you're fucking special because you're making your old people work more...

I didn't say we're MAKING them work more, they WANT to work more, and employers are happy to keep them. Everybody under 40 desperately wants them to retire ASAP (in fact some even jokingly want more than that).

Oct 7, 2019#162

blotsfan

GasBandit said:
I didn't say we're MAKING them work more, they WANT to work more

I think by "want" you mean "literally can't afford not to."

Oct 7, 2019#163

GasBandit

blotsfan said:
I think by "want" you mean "literally can't afford not to."

Oh, the boomers can afford to retire, but why would they? They're raking it in, and the effort is low.

It's the mid-gen-Xers and later that probably won't be able to retire.

Oct 7, 2019#164

AshburnerX

Ehh... it's a mix of both? On the one hand, many Boomers don't really have any real kind of retirement savings (ether because they never started, lost it to the crash, or invested in a property they can't unload now) but on the other, Boomers have a psychological fixation on their job as their primary identity. A lot of Boomers don't want to leave their jobs because their jobs are all they have, identity wise. This is a very American problem and not one that affects Gen-X or Millenials (we all grew up knowing our employers didn't give a fuck about us so we didn't get attached), but it is causing issues.

It certainly helps Boomers that they possess a lot of the management power at companies, which allows them to insulate themselves away from economic realities until it's time for them leave.

Oct 7, 2019#165

@Li3n

GasBandit said:
No, it doesn't. It's like saying that getting a college degree doesn't count as going to kindergarten.

Man, it's been a while, so I'd forgotten the sheer willful ignorance you insist on bringing to bear on every conversation... for example...

Well then, school my willfully ignorant ass... what do doctors get in the US that isn't "a ripoff and a racket, at any price." ?

Jeez, no wonder Trumpists are so good at "but he ahtually meant...", seems like that's a well practised skill over there.

GasBandit said:
I didn't say we're MAKING them work more, they WANT to work more, and employers are happy to keep them. Everybody under 40 desperately wants them to retire ASAP (in fact some even jokingly want more than that).

The people passing retirement laws are also old... and i know plenty who work on contact after retirement age because the job is more bout influence then work... guess i could make the argument that they also want to or something like that...

But guess what, that doesn't actually change anything about the idea that old people are holding on to jobs and keeping them from young people, and them doing it on purpose or being forced to is pretty immaterial.

Then again acknowledging that would require you to rethink your argument, and we all know you don't do that in public...

Oct 7, 2019#166

figmentPez

@Li3n said:
Well then, school my willfully ignorant ass... what do doctors get in the US that isn't "a ripoff and a racket, at any price." ?

Arguably, they don't get anything that isn't a ripoff and a racket. The biggest problem is underpaid, overscheduled internships, which are basically a form of hazing combined with indentured servitude. A lot of people argue that the demands on medical students, and recent graduates, are unhealthy and dangerous, both for the future doctor and for patients. The medical education system in the US is broken, and needs as much of an overhaul as any other part of our malfunctioning schools. Even though doctors do end up trained, the costs they pay, both monetarily and otherwise, are unnecessarily high for the results.

Oct 7, 2019#167

blotsfan

My roommate is a medical student and I don't know how he's getting by. He works more than full time and has to pay a ton for the opportunity. He'll obviously make a shitton when he's out of it but that's still years away.

Oct 7, 2019#168

Dei

blotsfan said:
My roommate is a medical student and I don't know how he's getting by. He works more than full time and has to pay a ton for the opportunity. He'll obviously make a shitton when he's out of it but that's still years away.

Only if he's specializing.

Oct 7, 2019#169

AshburnerX

Dei said:
Only if he's specializing.

Most new doctors are going into specialties because you can't make money as a general practitioner or pediatrician anymore. Lots of orthopedists, dentists, ENTs, and such... general practitioners still in the business are demanding people to pay monthly fees to retain services or outsourcing all their work to RNs. The biggest change is people going into nursing; you can potentially make more money as a nurse than a doctor right now due to demand and low average cost to become an RN.

Oct 7, 2019#170

Tress

Hey, remember how this thread is supposed to be about the Democratic Primary?

I found this page to be especially interesting, especially now that it's showing Elizabeth Warren as a slight favorite.

Oct 7, 2019#171

AshburnerX

Tress said:
Hey, remember how this thread is supposed to be about the Democratic Primary?

Meh.. I'd say it was still on topic. These are all concerns of Democratic voters at any rate.

Oct 7, 2019#172

PatrThom

Tress said:
I found this page to be especially interesting, especially now that it's showing Elizabeth Warren as a slight favorite.

I almost expect Bernie and Warren to eventually go all Mondale just to make sure they get the votes of both groups of supporters.

--Patrick

Oct 8, 2019#173

@Li3n

figmentPez said:
Arguably, they don't get anything that isn't a ripoff and a racket. The biggest problem is underpaid, overscheduled internships, which are basically a form of hazing combined with indentured servitude. A lot of people argue that the demands on medical students, and recent graduates, are unhealthy and dangerous, both for the future doctor and for patients. The medical education system in the US is broken, and needs as much of an overhaul as any other part of our malfunctioning schools. Even though doctors do end up trained, the costs they pay, both monetarily and otherwise, are unnecessarily high for the results.

Pro Tip: i was waiting for an answer from Gas "Our healthcare is great because we pay our doctors more then anyone etc" Bandit...

But if we're talking about economics alone, then having any degree makes you more money (which is easily google-able). You just need even more to pay off your debt.

So no, it's not college itself, but your tuition system that is a scam... but again, he's made it clear that he agrees with Dave that you can't go free higher education... so...

Oct 10, 2019#174

blotsfan

I wish I could get odds on her being a Fox News contributer within 3 years.

Oct 10, 2019#175

Dei

That is the most wishy washy glory seeking tweet I have ever seen.

Oct 18, 2019#176

blotsfan

blotsfan said:
wish I could get odds on her being a Fox News contributer within 3 years.

It'sHappening.gif

Oct 18, 2019#177

DarkAudit

blotsfan said:
It'sHappening.gif

Yeah... Gabbard goes on Tucker Carlson's show? If that doesn't scream RUSSIAN PLANT!!, I don't know what does.

Oct 19, 2019#178

Frank

That's a crowd. Dang.

Oct 22, 2019#179

blotsfan

Oct 22, 2019#180

figmentPez

"This tweet is unavailable."

Oct 22, 2019#181

Bubble181

figmentPez said:
"This tweet is unavailable."

It was a series of tweets about potential presidential candidates, that could be backed by the democratic establishment. John Kerry, Clinton, etc.

Oct 22, 2019#182

blotsfan

Should I be more careful about the permanence of what I post for future visibility?

No, it's the people who read my stuff too late who are wrong.

Oct 24, 2019#183

blotsfan

TIL Tim Ryan was still running.

Oct 24, 2019#184

Krisken

Who?

Oct 24, 2019#185

Tress

A really useful link to keep track of who is still in the race.

Oct 24, 2019#186

GasBandit

Krisken said:
Who?

Exactly.

Oct 24, 2019#187

Frank

After being called out for being groomed to be a third party spoiler candidate, Tulsi Gabbard threw a whiny shit fit all over the place, then met with big Wallstreet donors to prepare for her third party candidate campaign.

Oct 25, 2019#188

blotsfan

She just wants a more democratic process.

Oct 25, 2019#189

Frank

Almost like she read those lines from a whitehouse talking points sheet.

Oct 25, 2019#190

GasBandit

blotsfan said:
She just wants a more democratic process.

I'm more interested in knowing what was on the crawler about "You Can't Do That On Television."

Oct 25, 2019#191

blotsfan

Hopefully nobody falls for this the same way no democrats fell for Howard Schultz.

Oct 25, 2019#192

Dave

GasBandit said:
I'm more interested in knowing what was on the crawler about "You Can't Do That On Television."

It's Fox News. It's probably "tell the truth".

Oct 25, 2019#193

blotsfan

Heyoooo

Nov 1, 2019#194

blotsfan

The first dropout that had at least one moment of plausibility.

Nov 1, 2019#195

phil

I'm glad he called it. Hopefully a few more will follow and realize that their runs are over.

Beto's run seemed a bit too...ill advised? Like right after his Senate run people were still so high on the idea of a popular Texas Dem that they wanted him to run for prez. But he announced kind of late in the game after a lot of the other big names had already announced. He might have faired better with an earlier start but ultimately it's all probably for the best. He isn't really what we need in a president.

Nov 2, 2019#196

Hailey Knight

He should aim for Congress again.

Nov 3, 2019#197

blotsfan

One year from today...

Nov 3, 2019#198

jwhouk

blotsfan said:
One year from today...

IOW 366 days of hell...

Nov 3, 2019#199

GasBandit

blotsfan said:
One year from today...

I'm afraid there's still a very real possibility of a Trump second term. 40-45% of the country's top (if not only) priority is still "make life hell for liberals and beltway elites." That takes precedence over literally anything else Trump does. They don't care about immigrant families. They don't care about (or have antipathy for) the LBGTQ community. They don't care about his tweets because badly crafted tweets make him seem less like a politician and more like a regular guy. They hear a new "scandal" every day being trumpeted as "THIS IS THE ONE, THE ONE WE GET HIM ON" and it's given everybody listener fatigue, so now they tune all of them out - except for, deep in their brains, they register "democrats and the media screaming and crying, so he must be doing something right."

Just saying. Brace for his re-election.

Nov 3, 2019#200

Krisken

It's so funny watching the party which purported to love the country and the constitution have no qualms about flipping the finger to both in self interest. It's almost like they never believed it to begin with.

Nov 3, 2019#201

blotsfan

oh yeah my money is on trump winning

Nov 3, 2019#202

Krisken

I listen to politics podcasts and each one is hand wringing over whether the Democratic party has gone to far to the left with their candidates, and it is frustrating since you never hear "That conservative candidate is too far to the right" or "They are too extreme". Trump is costing the country billions with these tariffs, asks foreign countries to meddle in our elections and target his political rivals (hell, holds foreign aid to do so), and is routinely caught in lie after lie.

This country gets what it deserves in its leaders.

Nov 3, 2019#203

GasBandit

Krisken said:
I listen to politics podcasts and each one is hand wringing over whether the Democratic party has gone to far to the left with their candidates, and it is frustrating since you never hear "That conservative candidate is too far to the right" or "They are too extreme". Trump is costing the country billions with these tariffs, asks foreign countries to meddle in our elections and target his political rivals (hell, holds foreign aid to do so), and is routinely caught in lie after lie.

This country gets what it deserves in its leaders.

It's because "the left is TOO left!" is the root of the power that trump and his cronies have. They rode to the top on the swell of a wave of "the liberals have gone too far! It's time to take back our country!" so going farther to the left is seen as the proverbial mask slipping. "See! Now they're showing their true colors, they were commie socialists all along!!"

There are two ways to go here... either appear as the rational moderate alternative to extremism (which may work, but may also be too milquetoast to inspire people to their side) or "drop the pretense" so as to show a genuine alternative ("Yes, we're socialists, and we're proud of it, and you should join us because it's to your advantage and here's why!") which is as much a gamble because it puts people's self-interest in contest with firmly-ingrained beliefs.

The fact of the matter is, it seems to be Trump's election to lose - and even incompetence and blatant perfidy isn't hurting him thus far.

Nov 3, 2019#204

Dave

That's because the right is either stupid, evil, or just plain gullible.

Or all three combined.

Nov 3, 2019#205

PatrThom

Dave said:
That's because the right is either stupid, evil, or just plain gullible.

Or all three combined.

"'I didn't think the leopards would eat my face again,' says dejected 2020 voter."

--Patrick

Nov 3, 2019#206

Krisken

GasBandit said:
It's because "the left is TOO left!" is the root of the power that trump and his cronies have. They rode to the top on the swell of a wave of "the liberals have gone too far! It's time to take back our country!" so going farther to the left is seen as the proverbial mask slipping. "See! Now they're showing their true colors, they were commie socialists all along!!"

There are two ways to go here... either appear as the rational moderate alternative to extremism (which may work, but may also be too milquetoast to inspire people to their side) or "drop the pretense" so as to show a genuine alternative ("Yes, we're socialists, and we're proud of it, and you should join us because it's to your advantage and here's why!") which is as much a gamble because it puts people's self-interest in contest with firmly-ingrained beliefs.

The fact of the matter is, it seems to be Trump's election to lose - and even incompetence and blatant perfidy isn't hurting him thus far.

But it's not them that frustrates me, it's the media and podcasts parroting it.

Nov 3, 2019#207

GasBandit

Krisken said:
But it's not them that frustrates me, it's the media and podcasts parroting it.

Obviously they believe the path to victory is the former option, and that the latter option is doomed.

Nov 4, 2019#208

Tress

GasBandit said:
The fact of the matter is, it seems to be Trump's election to lose - and even incompetence and blatant perfidy isn't hurting him thus far.

Trump is competitive in six 2020 swing states despite national weakness, polls say

Basically Trump may be wildly unpopular overall, but he's winning or close to winning against the top 3 Democrats in 6 key swing states (Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Florida, Arizona, and North Carolina). So, as another author recently said, Democrats can run up the score as much as they want in California and New York - it won't amount to much if he wins the Electoral College again. Which he very well could do.

Nov 4, 2019#209

Frank

I mean, the Dems would batshit insane to do the same dumbshit Hillary did. They're going to be in those states literally non-stop the entire election.

Nov 4, 2019#210

Dave

Frank said:
I mean, the Dems would batshit insane to do the same dumbshit Hillary did. They're going to be in those states literally non-stop the entire election.

It's cute that you think the dems are going to campaign intelligently. So far all they've done is push Biden. 2020's Hillary.

Nov 6, 2019#211

Frank

Pro-Trump ass Kentucky just elected a democrat as governor. Anything is possible.

I know they have a history of Democrat governors, but this is the split, angry age of Trump.

Next job KT is fucking throwing Mitch McConnell back into the fucking ocean.

Nov 6, 2019#212

Bubble181

Frank said:
Pro-Trump ass Kentucky just elected a democrat as governor. Anything is possible.

I know they have a history of Democrat governors, but this is the split, angry age of Trump.

Next job KT is fucking throwing Mitch McConnell back into the fucking ocean.

Do you know how much effort and money is being spent cleaning up the oceans?! Jeeze, recycle your trash!

Nov 6, 2019#213

@Li3n

Dave said:
It's cute that you think the dems are going to campaign intelligently. So far all they've done is push Biden. 2020's Hillary.

But Biden has the distinct advantage of no active investigations, and, hopefully, no e-mails on Carlos Danger's laptop...

Also, 4 years of Trump showing people why they should vote even for a candidate they don't love.

Frank said:
Pro-Trump ass Kentucky just elected a democrat as governor. Anything is possible.

I know they have a history of Democrat governors, but this is the split, angry age of Trump.

That's the funny thing about regressive conservative policies... they didn't go away because a few people disagreed with them, they went away because the majority of people accepted they where no bueno.

So while they might be able to win elections by convincing progressives and moderates to stay home because the other guy isn't their dream boat, once they actually implement their policies it just reminds people why said ideas where left behind and motivates them to vote again.

It's why conservatism only works if you're using it to keep progressivism from going too fast, and is otherwise a losing ideology (originally it was about bringing back monarchy, divine right, and not separating church and state... oh right, they still have one of those, my bad).

Nov 6, 2019#214

mikerc

@Li3n said:
It's why conservatism only works if you're using it to keep progressivism from going too fast, and is otherwise a losing ideology (originally it was about bringing back monarchy, divine right, and not separating church and state... oh right, they still have one of those, my bad).

I'd say they still have two of those. They're quite blatant about the not separating church and state, & the number of conservative talking heads that claim God chose Trump to be President certainly sounds a lot like divine right to me.

Nov 6, 2019#215

@Li3n

mikerc said:
the number of conservative talking heads that claim God chose Trump to be President certainly sounds a lot like divine right to me.

It's close, but i'm sticking the the idea that the real deal would exclude any sort of earthly interference like elections or constitutional separation of powers etc.

Nov 10, 2019#216

figmentPez

Nov 10, 2019#217

jwhouk

He isn't wrong to believe that. The man does like building things.

Completing them, on the other hand...

Nov 12, 2019#218

figmentPez

Hillary Clinton 'under enormous pressure' to run in 2020

Under pressure from who? Republicans? Billionaires afraid of Warren? Epstein's human trafficking ring? Because it sure as hell ain't your average voter pressuring her to get back into the running.

Nov 12, 2019#219

Frank

From the voices in her head.

FUCK OFF HILLARY. FUCK, THE FUCK, OFF.

Nov 12, 2019#220

jwhouk

DO. NOT. WANT.

Nov 14, 2019#221

blotsfan

Welcome deval patrick as the latest "literally anyone but Bernie or Warren" candidate.

Nov 14, 2019#222

phil

Christ, what even is the fucking point this late? There has to be an easier way to get a book deal. Like how many yes-men surround these people and tell them that "oh yeah, you for sure have a shot. Everyone knows who you are and loves you and you can for sure beat out bigger names like Biden and Sanders"

Nov 14, 2019#223

blotsfan

Im kinda hoping all the centrists just steal each other's votes.

Nov 14, 2019#224

phil

Right? I kinda want Hillary to run and take B-dogs PAC money

Nov 14, 2019#225

jwhouk

DO. NOT. WANT.

Nov 14, 2019#226

Dave

Nobody really wants.

Nov 15, 2019#227

jwhouk

Actually, only one person really wants, and her initials are HRC.

Nov 15, 2019#228

Krisken

I dunno, I think she might be over it now.

Dec 3, 2019#229

blotsfan

Another real candidate dropping out.

Dec 3, 2019#230

Tress

I'm not a big Kamala Harris fan, but she was a damn better candidate than Bloomberg. Why is his sorry ass still hanging around when legit candidates can take a hint?

Dec 3, 2019#231

Tress

The NY Times has updated their list, if anyone else needs help keeping track of who's in and who's out.

Dec 3, 2019#232

blotsfan

Tress said:
I'm not a big Kamala Harris fan, but she was a damn better candidate than Bloomberg. Why is his sorry ass still hanging around when legit candidates can take a hint?

Because he can't really run out of money.

Dec 3, 2019#233

Krisken

blotsfan said:
Because he can't really run out of money.

That's only because the financial system is rigged

Dec 3, 2019#234

Hailey Knight

Meanwhile, Castro can't even get in the debate because he's not rich enough.

This stupid country.

Jan 13, 2020#235

blotsfan

Booker is (officially) done.

Jan 13, 2020#236

Dave

If you aren't one of the top 4 at this point, you're done. No sense in continuing and spending money for no reason.

Jan 13, 2020#237

Frank

The non-Bernie candidates have cash to spare all paid for by the rich people desperate for Bernie to lose.

Jan 13, 2020#238

PatrThom

Frank said:
The non-Bernie candidates have cash to spare all paid for by the rich people desperate for Bernie to lose.

I love the website banners I keep seeing: "Who will win? Click here to vote for Trump or Warren!" "Hey you guys know there are other..." "TRUMP OR WARREN THERE IS NO OTHER CAST YOUR VOTE NOW NOW"

--Patrick

Jan 13, 2020#239

Dei

I don't think people should drop out before voting or be required to raise $x before being allowed to debate, but we live in a society where worth is determined by wealth so we're screwed.

(I'm not saying we shouldn't widdle down candidates or limit debate space, I just don't agree with money being what talks)

Jan 13, 2020#240

netsirk

Dei said:
widdle down

I'm sorry, I couldn't help myself...I'll show myself out now

Jan 14, 2020#241

Frank

Holy fucking shit are all the rich Democrats desperate right now for Bernie not to win now that he's surging. Look at the mud slinging going on.

Jan 15, 2020#242

Dave

The lies are starting to mount.

Jan 15, 2020#243

figmentPez

Starting to?

Jan 15, 2020#244

Dave

figmentPez said:
Starting to?

Now they are coming from other dems as well, though. Specifically from Warren's camp.

Jan 15, 2020#245

PatrThom

Dave said:
Now they are coming from other dems as well, though. Specifically from Warren's camp.

Guys! Guys! I don't care if it looks like a St. Bernard is going to get nominated.
You will put your full support behind that dog and praise it and you will get it elected, because the alternative is worse.

--Patrick

Jan 15, 2020#246

phil

PatrThom said:
Guys! Guys! I don't care if it looks like a St. Bernard is going to get nominated.
You will put your full support behind that dog and praise it and you will get it elected, because the alternative is worse.

--Patrick

Hmm.. how many billionaires donated to the st. Bernard?

Jan 15, 2020#247

Bubble181

PatrThom said:
Guys! Guys! I don't care if it looks like a St. Bernard is going to get nominated.
You will put your full support behind that dog and praise it and you will get it elected, because the alternative is worse.

--Patrick

nope! The Bern fans and Warren fans will eat each other alive, continue fighting, tear the other candidate down, stay home, and give Trump a second term. As was the plan all along.
The left is divided, the right is willing to put up with...well, even Trump, if it gets their side elected.

Jan 16, 2020#248

Tress

Bubble181 said:
nope! The Bern fans and Warren fans will eat each other alive, continue fighting, tear the other candidate down, stay home, and give Trump a second term. As was the plan all along.
The left is divided, the right is willing to put up with...well, even Trump, if it gets their side elected.

I hope to God you are wrong, even though I’m worried that you’re right.

Jan 16, 2020#249

Dave

I'm a HUGE Bernie guy and am very upset with the lies and bullshit coming out of the Warren camp. But if she gets the nomination - even if it's because of underhanded tactics like this - I'll still vote for her over Trump.

I'd vote for the voting MACHINE over Trump. Or the dog sitting outside waiting for their master to come back out. Or my car. Or a piece of shit that I scraped off my shoe, even though that would be about the same as a Trump.

Jan 16, 2020#250

blotsfan

Honestly after the last election, I could believe Bernie said it, and I could also believe he's right.

Jan 16, 2020#251

Dave

Bullshit. It's nothing Bernie would say and it's not true at all. Warren is not Hillary.

Jan 16, 2020#252

@Li3n

Bubble181 said:
nope! The Bern fans and Warren fans will eat each other alive, continue fighting, tear the other candidate down, stay home, and give Trump a second term. As was the plan all along.
The left is divided, the right is willing to put up with...well, even Trump, if it gets their side elected.

Hillary should have taken him as VP, especially since all the stupid "she dying" crap the reps where spewing would have given Berners hope...

Dave said:
Bullshit. It's nothing Bernie would say and it's not true at all. Warren is not Hillary.

I'd maybe believe if they had said he talked about how a woman would face more anti votes from the right, but i too don't see him saying a woman striaght up can't win.

And Hilary barely lost even after years of investigations and the worst Weiner-fere right at the end...

Jan 16, 2020#253

Bubble181

I can imagine him saying it, but not necessarily as a sexist thing. I even tend to agree - I don't think there's a woman currently in the field who could win against Trump.

Jan 16, 2020#254

PatrThom

Yeah, I think even if Tomi Lahren herself ran for office, Trump’s base would still vote for Trump just because he’s male.

—Patrick

Jan 17, 2020#255

PatrThom

Biden wants to get rid of law that shields companies like Facebook from liability for what their users post

There’s no way this could even work now. Other than EVERY site deleting ALL user-created content if they want to stay online, but then what’s the point?

—Patrick

Jan 17, 2020#256

Dei

PatrThom said:
Biden wants to get rid of law that shields companies like Facebook from liability for what their users post

There’s no way this could even work now. Other than EVERY site deleting ALL user-created content if they want to stay online, but then what’s the point?

—Patrick

This is but one of the many reasons I have strong feelings against old people running the government.

Jan 17, 2020#257

PatrThom

Dei said:
This is but one of the many reasons I have strong feelings against old people running the government.

Old, young... the bigger problem is people trying to write/pass legislation regarding subjects they literally don’t understand without soliciting the input of people who do understand.
<cough>abortion<ahem>encryption<hack>climate<wheeze>

—Patrick

Jan 18, 2020#258

figmentPez

Well, this happened:

'Simply a lie,' Biden accuses Sanders campaign of releasing 'doctored' video

"Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden accused rival Bernie Sanders’s campaign on Saturday of disseminating a “doctored” video edited to falsely appear to show the former vice president supporting cutting Social Security, and called on the Sanders campaign to disown it.

"In response, Sanders’ campaign refused to back down and continued to cite the video as evidence that Biden wants to limit the government-run retirement and disability program. "

Jan 18, 2020#259

AshburnerX

What? Biden's a DINO? Who could have ever seen this coming?!

Jan 18, 2020#260

Frank

Just how transparent is this shit?

MSNBC has a "body language" expert on to talk about how Bernie lied about saying women can't president. Here's some other greatest hits of this expert.

Jan 19, 2020#261

Hailey Knight

AshburnerX said:
What? Biden's a DINO? Who could have ever seen this coming?!

I like that this works two ways.

Jan 19, 2020#262

PatrThom

figmentPez said:
Joe Biden accused rival Bernie Sanders’s campaign on Saturday of disseminating a “doctored” video edited to falsely appear to show the former vice president supporting cutting Social Security

Joe Biden has advocated the cutting of Social Security since at least 1984.

“When I argued that we should freeze federal spending, I meant Social Security as well,” he told the Senate in 1995. “I meant Medicare and Medicaid. I meant veterans’ benefits. I meant every single solitary thing in the government. And I not only tried it once, I tried it twice, I tried it a third time, and I tried it a fourth time.”

—Patrick

Jan 21, 2020#263

Anonymous

Dear Hillary,

Go jump off a cliff.

Thanks,
Blotsfan

Jan 21, 2020#264

blotsfan

Man it's convenient that i happened to sign it the time I accidentally hit anonymous.

Jan 21, 2020#265

Terrik

I mean, the people who don't like Sanders are probably the same people who Sander's supporters don't like, so I don't see how her saying this is an any way a detraction from Sanders.

Jan 21, 2020#266

blotsfan

I preferred Sanders in 2016 but still voted for her when she was the nominee.

Jan 21, 2020#267

Tress

I don’t dislike Sanders personally, but I disagree with some of his key platforms. And and I refuse to vote for “the lesser of two evils”, because that mentality is a key contributor to the tribalism we see in politics now. So if it came down to Trump vs Sanders, I’d probably seek to vote 3rd party.

Having said that, Hillary is being petty AF. Taking personal shots at him like that just shows how bitter she is.

Jan 21, 2020#268

@Li3n

Tress said:
So if it came down to Trump vs Sanders, I’d probably seek to vote 3rd party.

Oh for fucks sakes.

The US president isn't an autocrat, electing him won't magically make all his desired policies pass Congress.

But, yeah, sure, 4 more years of a guy who is literally showing everyone your constitution isn't worth the paper it's printed on, just so you can say you didn't compromise... because that's totally not what's actually contributing to the tribalism...

Jan 21, 2020#269

Dave

I love Bernie and most of his ideas. I don't, however, see him as being able to enact most of what he says. Presidents don't do these things - congress does. So if dems don't get the senate there's NO CHANCE anything will get done. Yes, the presidency would be nice, but the senate is infinitely more important.

Jan 21, 2020#270

blotsfan

The presidency at least stems the bleeding of judges.

Jan 21, 2020#271

@Li3n

Dave said:
So if dems don't get the senate there's NO CHANCE anything will get done.

And even if they do, a few Blue Dog Democrats will make sure anything is watered down like the ACA was...

Jan 21, 2020#272

Tress

@Li3n said:
Oh for fucks sakes.

The US president isn't an autocrat, electing him won't magically make all his desired policies pass Congress.

But, yeah, sure, 4 more years of a guy who is literally showing everyone your constitution isn't worth the paper it's printed on, just so you can say you didn't compromise... because that's totally not what's actually contributing to the tribalism...

You would rather constantly vote for someone you don't actually support just because the other guy is worse? Is that what you think voting means? Is that how democracy is supposed to work? Look, I'm sorry I don't like the guy that you apparently like. But grow up and realize that not everyone thinks like you, and that doesn't make them bad. This country needs to move on from a tribal two party system where you have to vote for your party's candidate OR ELSE. There are nuances and different opinions. I'm not going to support someone I actively don't agree with just because I dislike someone else more. That's fucking stupid.

Jan 21, 2020#273

figmentPez

This country desperately needs a new voting system. Preferential, ranked, instant-run-off, whatever. Something to make it so that we can get tin dictators out of office while still being able to support our most favored candidate.

Jan 21, 2020#274

@Li3n

Tress said:
You would rather constantly vote for someone you don't actually support just because the other guy is worse?

No, you do it when it's fucking Trump, and he's literally shitting on the things that have kept your democracy trodding along just barely, and is making the office of teh presidency basically immune to any oversight...

You can vote 3rd party when it doesn't end up with the possibility of a con-man continuing to erode your entire political system.

Tress said:
Look, I'm sorry I don't like the guy that you apparently like. But grow up and realize that not everyone thinks like you, and that doesn't make them bad.

Part of growing up is making choices you don't like, and not burying your head in the sand...

Tress said:
This country needs to move on from a tribal two party system where you have to vote for your party's candidate OR ELSE. There are nuances and different opinions.

It's a mathematical fact that, as long as you use FPTP voting it never will.

But you've made it clear that you wouldn't vote for people who would implement that sort of change unless you also agreed with them on other big items, so that's never happening.

Tress said:
There are nuances and different opinions.

Yeah, and yet AOC and Biden are in the same party, because that's the system you're working in, and you can't change it by not participating.

Tress said:
I'm not going to support someone I actively don't agree with just because I dislike someone else more. That's fucking stupid.

Life is stupid, unfortunately, you can't actually ignore it, because consequences happen to you either way.

Remember 8 years of Bush? You telling m that didn't affect you at all?

figmentPez said:
This country desperately needs a new voting system. Preferential, ranked, instant-run-off, whatever. Something to make it so that we can get tin dictators out of office while still being able to support our most favored candidate.

And that's never going to happen as long as both parties benefit from it.

Jan 21, 2020#275

phil

Tress said:
You would rather constantly vote for someone you don't actually support just because the other guy is worse? Is that what you think voting means? Is that how democracy is supposed to work? Look, I'm sorry I don't like the guy that you apparently like. But grow up and realize that not everyone thinks like you, and that doesn't make them bad. This country needs to move on from a tribal two party system where you have to vote for your party's candidate OR ELSE. There are nuances and different opinions. I'm not going to support someone I actively don't agree with just because I dislike someone else more. That's fucking stupid.

The kids dying in cages will applaud you for sticking to your guns as Trump takes his 2nd term.

Jan 21, 2020#276

blotsfan

Thankfully, as a Californian his vote won't really matter. Im still gonna vote for whoever the dem is just because it pisses trump off that he lost the popular vote

Jan 21, 2020#277

Dei

blotsfan said:
Thankfully, as a Californian his vote won't really matter. Im still gonna vote for whoever the dem is just because it pisses trump off that he lost the popular vote

That's true, his presidential vote counts about as much as yours. :awesome:

Jan 21, 2020#278

ScytheRexx

This is why I kind of hate the way the voting system works right now. My vote, usually, makes just as much difference.

It's because the way the EC is an "all or nothing" vote. While I don't think we will ever move to a full popular vote system, I really do hope we at least move to a compromised system someday in which the EC points are divided out based on the states vote percentages. This will give people like me a little more say, give Republican's in places like California more of a voice, but still allow some states with proportionality more EC points to population ratio to still have slightly higher sway in the final outcome.

It sure is better then feeling like your vote never matters in anything outside small, local elections.

Jan 21, 2020#279

Tress

phil said:
The kids dying in cages will applaud you for sticking to your guns as Trump takes his 2nd term.

Wow. Alright, have fun with your circlejerk. It's been fun.

Jan 21, 2020#280

blotsfan

Dei said:
That's true, his presidential vote counts about as much as yours.

Hence the second sentence in that post where I say I'm still voting for whoever the dem is because I can at least enjoy pissing trump off ever so slightly.

Jan 21, 2020#281

Bubble181

ScytheRexx said:
This is why I kind of hate the way the voting system works right now. My vote, usually, makes just as much difference.

It's because the way the EC is an "all or nothing" vote. While I don't think we will ever move to a full popular vote system, I really do hope we at least move to a compromised system someday in which the EC points are divided out based on the states vote percentages. This will give people like me a little more say, give Republican's in places like California more of a voice, but still allow some states with proportionality more EC points to population ratio to still have slightly higher sway in the final outcome.

It sure is better then feeling like your vote never matters in anything outside small, local elections.

Oh, but you already have a pretty compromised system, I think.

Jan 21, 2020#282

Frank

No one likes Bernie.

Hillary Clinton needs to seriously fuck the fuck off.

Jan 21, 2020#283

Ravenpoe

When Hillary says no one likes Bernie, what she means is that none of their corporate overlords like him. It's those same overlords that are funding his opposition (and funded her)

Jan 21, 2020#284

GasBandit

Tress said:
Wow. Alright, have fun with your circlejerk. It's been fun.

You can join my table, I get the same treatment when I stick to my guns as a libertarian, despite living in Texas where doing so definitely hurts republican candidates.

Frank said:
No one likes Bernie.

Hillary Clinton needs to seriously fuck the fuck off.

"Bernie said Hillary isn't qualified to be president. How can the secretary of state not be qualified?"
Well, she wasn't qualified to be secretary of state, either.

Jan 21, 2020#285

PatrThom

Ravenpoe said:
When Hillary says no one likes Bernie, what she means is that none of their corporate overlords like him. It's those same overlords that are funding his opposition (and funded her)

Latest one of these:

“Other”

Regardless of whether one might be for or against him as a candidate, this feels like blatant, easily verifiable journalistic malpractice.

—Patrick

Jan 23, 2020#286

@Li3n

GasBandit said:
You can join my table, I get the same treatment when I stick to my guns as a libertarian, despite living in Texas where doing so definitely hurts republican candidates.

Again, stop pretending we're talking about 2 party politics as usual.

A guy like Trump getting elected and getting away with obvious abuses of power out in the open is how a civilization starts a slow slide into dictatorship...

You can go back to quietly waste your vote instead of actually attempting to get rid of FPTP so 3rd parties have a chance at counting for something, once the actual emolument-clause-ignoring, has-totally-not-obstructed-justice-because-his instructions-to-obstruct-where-not-followed total shit show of a president is not a threat any more.

Jan 23, 2020#287

Bubble181

@Li3n said:
Again, stop pretending we're talking about 2 party politics as usual.

A guy like Trump getting elected and getting away with obvious abuses of power out in the open is how a civilization starts a slow slide into dictatorship...

You can go back to quietly waste your vote instead of actually attempting to get rid of FPTP so 3rd parties have a chance at counting for something, once the actual emolument-clause-ignoring, has-totally-not-obstructed-justice-because-his instructions-to-obstruct-where-not-followed total shit show of a president is not a threat any more.

Yeah. Dubyah was a hateful, miserable excuse for a president, but he never tried to become Emperor For Life Above The Law.
There's differences in level

Jan 23, 2020#288

@Li3n

You had plenty of bad presidents, but they all knew not to say the quite part out loud, and if they did, it hurt them...

And that's an important part of any system that works.

Once it stops, then you're fucked.

Jan 23, 2020#289

ScytheRexx

Honestly it's the precedent that scares me the most. At least before we had trust that the system would expel a destructive president even if they were not brazen about it. Trump has shown a lot of people how far they can take it and even be brazen about it and not be punished. Who is to say when the next wannabe dictator comes around, what will happen?

Jan 24, 2020#290

DarkAudit

ScytheRexx said:
Honestly it's the precedent that scares me the most. At least before we had trust that the system would expel a destructive president even if they were not brazen about it. Trump has shown a lot of people how far they can take it and even be brazen about it and not be punished. Who is to say when the next wannabe dictator comes around, what will happen?

Nikita Khrushchev said they would defeat us without firing a shot. It's happening right before our eyes. At the hands of those who consider themselves the "Real" Americans.

Jan 28, 2020#291

blotsfan

I'm really enjoying this surge bernie's had in the last few weeks. It's really gonna suck on Monday when Biden still wins Iowa because we can't have nice things.

Jan 30, 2020#292

figmentPez

Jan 30, 2020#293

blotsfan

I don't think it really has to be said here but "Real Americans" and "heartland" are just fancy ways of saying "white."

Jan 30, 2020#294

GasBandit

blotsfan said:
I don't think it really has to be said here but "Real Americans" and "heartland" are just fancy ways of saying "white."

Red state white. White people in DC, NY, SF, LA, Chicago etc have been tainted and might be libtards.

Jan 30, 2020#295

Dave

Oh god I hear that "heartland" shit every fucking day. Midwesterners can be some of the nicest people you want to meet, but god DAMN are they smug fuckers who think they are so much better than everyone else.

Jan 30, 2020#296

Fun Size

Dave said:
Oh god I hear that "heartland" shit every fucking day. Midwesterners can be some of the nicest people you want to meet, but god DAMN are they smug fuckers who think they are so much better than everyone else.

I feel so seen right now...

Jan 30, 2020#297

Bubble181

Dave said:
Oh god I hear that "heartland" shit every fucking day. Midwesterners can be some of the nicest people you want to meet, but god DAMN are they smug fuckers who think they are so much better than everyone else.

This entire quote can be completely applied to "Americans" (according to Europeans), "Europeans" (according to Americans), "Chinese" (according to most of the rest of south-east Asia), etc.

Jan 30, 2020#298

PatrThom

“In the face of ~~unprecedented challenges~~ a change to the status quo, we need a ~~president~~ ruler whose ~~vision~~ value system was shaped by ~~the American Heartland~~ Traditional Conservatives rather than ~~the ineffective Washington politics we’ve come to know and expect~~ someone who actually represents their constituency.”

There, fixed his grammar.

—Patrick

Jan 31, 2020#299

blotsfan

I made ONE donation and now I'm getting I think 5 emails and texts (each) per day.

Jan 31, 2020#300

Dave

blotsfan said:
I made ONE donation and now I'm getting I think 5 emails and texts (each) per day.

Same thing happens when you give to a charity. I give regularly to Save the Children and you'd think I was a multi-billionaire or something. I get so many fucking emails and actual mail from charities. Sorry, guys, but this well is tapped.

In 2016 (and again this year) I donated to Bernie. Less than $50 each time yet holy shit do they bother me. No texts, though. I put the kibosh on that from the beginning.

Jan 31, 2020#301

blotsfan

Dave said:
In 2016 (and again this year) I donated to Bernie. Less than $50 each time yet holy shit do they bother me. No texts, though. I put the kibosh on that from the beginning.

Probably smart. I wonder if his are as bad as the ones I'm getting from the Trump campaign.

Jan 31, 2020#302

Dave

blotsfan said:
Probably smart. I wonder if his are as bad as the ones I'm getting from the Trump campaign.

Oh it's not Bernie bothering me. It's the DNC, the DLCC, etc. And yes, I get asked by republicans as well, but I wouldn't donate to a republican candidate right now. The last time I voted anything republican was Bush Sr.

Jan 31, 2020#303

jwhouk

Yeah, you agree with one thing online attached to a Dem cause, and BAM you're on 50 million progressive mailing lists.

Sadly, it's the same with any sort of right-wing cause, too.

Feb 1, 2020#304

Frank

Go. The. Fuck. Away. Hillary. Fucking. Clinton.

Feb 3, 2020#305

blotsfan

Happy "put way too much of your emotional happiness in the hands of Iowans" day!

Feb 3, 2020#306

blotsfan

Caucases are so dumb.

Feb 3, 2020#307

PatrThom

Whose hat was it, and were there actually any other names in it?

--Patrick

Feb 3, 2020#308

Dei

blotsfan said:
Caucases are so dumb.

Having been to the local and county caucuses in Colorado before, I can assure you that they are even dumber than you think they are.

Feb 3, 2020#309

PatrThom

And in the no-surprises-here department:

--Patrick

Feb 3, 2020#310

blotsfan

I didnt know Walsh was running.

Feb 4, 2020#311

Frank

Somehow it's a three way tie between Warren, Bernie and Pete despite Bernie having nearly double the support of Pete. Democrats deserve to lose.

Feb 4, 2020#312

Bubble181

Frank said:
Somehow it's a three way tie between Warren, Bernie and Pete despite Bernie having nearly double the support of Pete. Democrats deserve to lose.

And Trump got elected with millions of votes less than Clinton. Bad voting systems are bad voting systems.

PatrThom said:
And in the no-surprises-here department:

View attachment 32779

--Patrick

Obviously no surprise, but, you know, this really does finish off the "we're just stuck with him but there are many good republicans out there" argument.
This really is the Germans reelecting Hitler, despite seeing and knowing what he's like.
In any non-two-party system, there'd be a decent conservative/centrist opponent.

Feb 4, 2020#313

PatrThom

Frank said:
Somehow it's a three way tie between Warren, Bernie and Joe despite Bernie having nearly 20% more support than Joe. Democrats deserve better.

FTFY

--Patrick

Feb 4, 2020#314

figmentPez

Feb 4, 2020#315

blotsfan

Man I knew I was being a tad impatient last night but I thought there would be results when I woke up.

Feb 4, 2020#316

Bubble181

blotsfan said:
Man I knew I was being a tad impatient last night but I thought there would be results when I woke up.

It's taking a lot of work to salvage Biden as a winner if he technically came in fourth.

Alternatively: it takes a lot of work to weed out all the Russian interference.

Feb 4, 2020#317

Bubble181

And as FivethirtyEight points out: even if everything is resolved now, it's probably completely torpedoed Buttigieg's odds and/or severely hurt Sanders. The only one who gains from all this is Biden. (and Trump, of course, but that doesn't matter haha!)

Feb 4, 2020#318

blotsfan

I disagree. The news cycle forgets fast. Whoever actually wins Iowa will be the big story of the day and this will be a distant memory by next Tuesday. We have the State of the Union, the official impeachment trial results (forgone conclusion, but still) and at lest one wildcard insane trump tweet before then.

Feb 4, 2020#319

Dei

The Colorado caucus overall took weeks (local -> county -> State were all separate meetings over the course of a month), so I think it just adds to the clusterfuck that Iowa rushes their results to stay relevant.

Feb 4, 2020#320

Bubble181

blotsfan said:
I disagree. The news cycle forgets fast. Whoever actually wins Iowa will be the big story of the day and this will be a distant memory by next Tuesday. We have the State of the Union, the official impeachment trial results (forgone conclusion, but still) and at lest one wildcard insane trump tweet before then.

Sure, but the Iowa bump and free publicity for the winner could've made a big difference. Especially if it would've been /will be Buttigieg. It would make him more credible... and frankly, a somewhat centrist guy that isn't 70+ or a billionaire might be a good candidate, you know.

Feb 4, 2020#321

Ravenpoe

Ahh, the good people of the American heartland

Feb 4, 2020#322

Frank

Miserable piece of WELL INFORMED shit.

Feb 4, 2020#323

figmentPez

Well, this is not at all reassuring:

Feb 4, 2020#324

Bubble181

Who in their right mind decided to use a free app by Shadow, Inc.? Seriously, that's the company name.

Feb 4, 2020#325

Bubble181

Buttigieg win, but with lower amount of voters than Sanders. Huh.

Feb 4, 2020#326

Dave

Bubble181 said:
Buttigieg win, but with lower amount of voters than Sanders. Huh.

Yeah, interesting, huh? Sanders leads by every metric...except he's going to come in second in the number of delegates. I'm not normally a conspiracy theory guy, but it's weird to me that an app developed by FORMER HILLARY DNC PEOPLE have created a clusterfuck that took way too long and the results are skewed away from Bernie. This really smells like more Clinton/DNC undermining of progressives.

Feb 4, 2020#327

Bubble181

Eh, well, I think that has more to do with the delegate appointment system and less with the app.

That aside, I still quite like Buttigieg as a candidate. He's by no means perfect, but he's a young minority guy who isn't too far to the left to scare off moderates , yet can come off believable when saying he cares about young people and their concerns.
And I can't believe I'm saying this, but in some ways, Bloomberg is becoming my second favorite - his decision to simply already campaign against Trump, rather than against other democrats, might pay off...or it might mean he'll be running third party and give it to Trump, I dunno.
Honestly, I just hope it isn't Biden or Sanders. The last thing the democrats need is two septagenarians running against each other. And yes, I'm aware Bloomberg is almost as old or older...but he doesn't show it as much just yet.

Feb 4, 2020#328

AshburnerX

Bubble181 said:
Eh, well, I think that has more to do with the delegate appointment system and less with the app.

That aside, I still quite like Buttigieg as a candidate. He's by no means perfect, but he's a young minority guy who isn't too far to the left to scare off moderates , yet can come off believable when saying he cares about young people and their concerns.
And I can't believe I'm saying this, but in some ways, Bloomberg is becoming my second favorite - his decision to simply already campaign against Trump, rather than against other democrats, might pay off...or it might mean he'll be running third party and give it to Trump, I dunno.
Honestly, I just hope it isn't Biden or Sanders. The last thing the democrats need is two septagenarians running against each other. And yes, I'm aware Bloomberg is almost as old or older...but he doesn't show it as much just yet.

This is everyone's weekly reminder that the entire reason Trump hasn't been impeached yet is because Bloomberg donated 12 million dollars to Republican candidates and flipped two of the seats he donated to for Republicans.

So yes, fuck Bloomberg.

Feb 4, 2020#329

MindDetective

There are apparently 3 different ways to tally the votes in Iowa. *shrug&

Feb 4, 2020#330

Ravenpoe

Bubble181 said:
Eh, well, I think that has more to do with the delegate appointment system and less with the app.

That aside, I still quite like Buttigieg as a candidate. He's by no means perfect, but he's a young minority guy who isn't too far to the left to scare off moderates , yet can come off believable when saying he cares about young people and their concerns.
And I can't believe I'm saying this, but in some ways, Bloomberg is becoming my second favorite - his decision to simply already campaign against Trump, rather than against other democrats, might pay off...or it might mean he'll be running third party and give it to Trump, I dunno.
Honestly, I just hope it isn't Biden or Sanders. The last thing the democrats need is two septagenarians running against each other. And yes, I'm aware Bloomberg is almost as old or older...but he doesn't show it as much just yet.

Pete Buttigege is basically just a younger Biden. He's in the pockets of the major corporations, which is why the DNC likes him.

Feb 4, 2020#331

Krisken

Still not buying it. I think this country is more afraid of The Gay than they will vote. Corporations may love him, but the average idiot, I'm not buying it.

Feb 4, 2020#332

blotsfan

Also theres no real reason to be excited about him. Like, what does he propose that makes you interested, beyond "if I'm elected, donald trump won't be president anymore"?

Feb 4, 2020#333

PatrThom

His orientation means he wouldn't be able to convert any of the Conservatives, that's for sure.
Nominating him for the Dems would repel any GOP switchers come Nov and just push 'em more firmly into the red.

--Patrick

Feb 4, 2020#334

Dei

blotsfan said:
Also theres no real reason to be excited about him. Like, what does he propose that makes you interested, beyond "if I'm elected, donald trump won't be president anymore"?

I thought that was the entire platform of the Democratic Party this year?

Feb 4, 2020#335

phil

PatrThom said:
His orientation means he wouldn't be able to convert any of the Conservatives, that's for sure.
Nominating him for the Dems would repel any GOP switchers come Nov and just push 'em more firmly into the red.

--Patrick

Well going by the video from earlier, it's....not common knowledge?

Feb 4, 2020#336

figmentPez

phil said:
Well going by the video from earlier, it's....not common knowledge?

If he's the Democrat candidate, it will be. Do you think Trump will be able to keep his mouth shut about something he's allowed to be bigoted about?

Feb 4, 2020#337

Bubble181

And you'll never elect a black guy, either.
Yeah, the conservatives won't vote for him. But they won't vote for Warren, Klombuchar (women!), or Sanders (a commie!) either. Or Biden, because...Well, he's not Trump.

Feb 4, 2020#338

figmentPez

Also, note the rounding error on the third line.

Feb 5, 2020#339

MindDetective

figmentPez said:
Also, note the rounding error on the third line.

I think the eighth delegate went to Pete by coin toss. But the form should reflect that. It is driving everyone nuts. Also, Bernie Bros are the most conspiracy-orientes group I have ever seen.

Feb 5, 2020#340

blotsfan

MindDetective said:
Also, Bernie Bros are the most conspiracy-orientes group I have ever seen.

Can you blame people for being dodgy about the results not coming in because of a mysterious new app that breaks, and it's owned by an open buttigeig supporter?

Feb 5, 2020#341

PatrThom

MindDetective said:
Bernie Bros are the most conspiracy-orientes [sic] group I have ever seen.

You can't blame them. Bernie's been snubbed and flat-out ignored by the media and even people in his own party, probably hoping he would just fade/go away.

--Patrick

Feb 5, 2020#342

Dei

PatrThom said:
You can't blame them. Bernie's been snubbed and flat-out ignored by the media and even people in his own party, probably hoping he would just fade/go away.

--Patrick

Bernie is an independent, who only joins the Dem party long enough to primary. I feel like if he had stayed a Dem in name for the last 4 years he might have built up some good will. But it's no surprise that the DNC snubs him in favor of their actual members.

Feb 5, 2020#343

AshburnerX

Dei said:
Bernie is an independent, who only joins the Dem party long enough to primary. I feel like if he had stayed a Dem in name for the last 4 years he might have built up some good will. But it's no surprise that the DNC snubs him in favor of their actual members.

A thousand times this. Bernie's a DINO, mostly because he needs a major party to get elected. The Party justifiably hates him for fucking with the Party's internal politics.

Feb 5, 2020#344

MindDetective

blotsfan said:
Can you blame people for being dodgy about the results not coming in because of a mysterious new app that breaks, and it's owned by an open buttigeig supporter?

PatrThom said:
You can't blame them. Bernie's been snubbed and flat-out ignored by the media and even people in his own party, probably hoping he would just fade/go away.

--Patrick

I can definitely blame people for doing what Trump does, stringing together a story that fits a narrative they want to sell with tape and staples. These conspiracies do not even pass the sniff test. Iowa gives a small number of delegates and Shadow Inc. wouldn't potentially tank their business for an investment from one candidate's supporter, let alone when there is a paper trail to verify the actual results. All people see is "App - Pete - $$" and ignore all the information that doesn't support their perceived victimization. That is what Trump does! I just want a higher standard than that, no matter who people support.

The real problem is that media, especially social media, moves at lightning speed and voting processes don't. Don't get me wrong, the DNC dropped the ball hard in Iowa. But now these stupid conspiracies are out there and they are sticky as hell in this connected world as people reinforce them in their echo chambers. It's dangerous.

Feb 5, 2020#345

Ravenpoe

AshburnerX said:
A thousand times this. Bernie's a DINO, mostly because he needs a major party to get elected. The Party justifiably hates him for fucking with the Party's internal politics.

And that's exactly why I like him, because the Democrats, while not as awful as the Republicans, are still pretty bad.

Feb 5, 2020#346

Bubble181

Also, both Biden and Klobuchar also gave money to Shadow. They've been cropped out of the picture as mostly shown, but it's apparently true. neither did especially well in Iowa.

Feb 5, 2020#347

PatrThom

MindDetective said:
These conspiracies do not even pass the sniff test.

The ones regarding the app, the IA Primary, perhaps not.
The ones where Bernie is frequently omitted from discussion entirely? They most certainly do.

--Patrick

Feb 5, 2020#348

AshburnerX

Ravenpoe said:
And that's exactly why I like him, because the Democrats, while not as awful as the Republicans, are still pretty bad.

Oh sure, that's fine. I'm simply pointing out that the Dems have a justifiable reason not to like him.

Feb 11, 2020#349

Frank

I don't think Ricky Bobby would agree MSNBC.

Feb 11, 2020#350

Bubble181

Frank said:
I don't think Ricky Bobby would agree MSNBC.

Yeah, no.

If the moderates keep dividing between Biden, Buttigieg and Klobuchar, this doesn't increase the chances of Klobuchar actually becoming the nominee - it just improves the odds for Sanders and/or Bloomberg.

Feb 11, 2020#351

Bubble181

George W, Clinton, and Trump were all born in 1946. Biden and Bloomberg are both from 1942. Sanders's from 1941! Warren's from 1949.
Obama was an outlier from 1961. Klobuchar's from 1960.
Buttigieg was born 1982.
Would the white folks from the 1940s please just quit it and leave another generation to try and fix all the messes they've caused by now?
Are there seriously no decent people interested from the 1950s and 1970s? Was Obama the only person born inthe 1960s who could run?
I'm not saying it has to be Buttigieg, but seriously, wtf is going on with a certain generation not being willing to give up power?

Feb 11, 2020#352

Terrik

Bubble181 said:
George W, Clinton, and Trump were all born in 1946. Biden and Bloomberg are both from 1942. Sanders's from 1941! Warren's from 1949.
Obama was an outlier from 1961. Klobuchar's from 1960.
Buttigieg was born 1982.
Would the white folks from the 1940s please just quit it and leave another generation to try and fix all the messes they've caused by now?
Are there seriously no decent people interested from the 1950s and 1970s? Was Obama the only person born inthe 1960s who could run?
I'm not saying it has to be Buttigieg, but seriously, wtf is going on with a certain generation not being willing to give up power?

Buttigieg isn't that far over the minimum age to run for president in the first place. It's not all that shocking that largely older individuals with decades of political experience under their belts are running. If no one has the charisma, strength of will, or ability to run and compete for office, then maybe the answer is no, there seriously isn't any decent people interested from the 50s and 70s. Obama certainly had those qualities, but they seem to be in short supply.

Feb 11, 2020#353

evilmike

Frank said:
I don't think Ricky Bobby would agree MSNBC.

Feb 11, 2020#354

blotsfan

Goodnight, sweet prince.

Feb 11, 2020#355

phil

Yang woulda at least been a fun yolo candidate. Can't get my yangbucks now though.

Feb 11, 2020#356

blotsfan

Awwww yeah.

Feb 11, 2020#357

Frank

So has Pete claimed victory yet?

Feb 11, 2020#358

Frank

Oh Jesus, I was fucking making a joke Peter. Fuck.

Feb 11, 2020#359

blotsfan

Frank said:
So has Pete claimed victory yet?

Took a little longer

Feb 11, 2020#360

Frank

I wish I had the white boy delusional confidence he has.

Feb 12, 2020#361

Bubble181

As long as you're going moderate, I stil think Pete and Klobuchar are the better choices than Biden or Bloomberg. We'll see.
Even though Sanders carried the state, he didn't do especially well and underperformed compared to 2016.
We'll see what happens next week with finally more colored people voting.

Feb 12, 2020#362

Frank

Bubble181 said:
As long as you're going moderate, I stil think Pete and Klobuchar are the better choices than Biden or Bloomberg. We'll see.
Even though Sanders carried the state, he didn't do especially well and underperformed compared to 2016.
We'll see what happens next week with finally more colored people voting.

It was a two horse race in 2016. It's a 2016 horse race in 2020. He still won.

Feb 12, 2020#363

blotsfan

Yeah any pundit who is comparing bernies performance in 2020 to 2016 is disingenuous and trying to downplay him.

Feb 12, 2020#364

Bubble181

Frank said:
It was a two horse race in 2016. It's a 2016 horse race in 2020. He still won.

...Sure? I didn't say he didn't. Lower turnout numbers of youth, lower turnout overall, just isn't a great look. I certainly don't blame Sanders for that, and I'm not saying he shouldn't run or should just give up now or anything. I'm just noticing that his own base didn't turn out as much as it did back then.
Despite it being such an open fight, with such high stakes, both in Iowa and New Hampshire, there is less enthusiasm. I honestly don't care which one becomes the democratic nominee, as long as enough people show up to get him/her elected.

Feb 12, 2020#365

blotsfan

Bubble181 said:
...Sure? I didn't say he didn't. Lower turnout numbers of youth, lower turnout overall, just isn't a great look. I certainly don't blame Sanders for that, and I'm not saying he shouldn't run or should just give up now or anything. I'm just noticing that his own base didn't turn out as much as it did back then.
Despite it being such an open fight, with such high stakes, both in Iowa and New Hampshire, there is less enthusiasm. I honestly don't care which one becomes the democratic nominee, as long as enough people show up to get him/her elected.

Turnout last night was higher than 2016, though I'm guessing a not-insignificant part of his victory then was more anti-Hillary than pro-Bernie.

Feb 12, 2020#366

Dave

Yeah I'm not sure I understand some of the narratives being pushed, other than to try and tear him down.

"He didn't win by as much!" - Many more choices than just two with one of those being the eminently likable Hillary Clinton.
"Voter turnout was down!" - NH had record turnout. Record. Highest turnout ever.
"Bernie doesn't do well with non-whites!" - He got 32% of the non-white vote in NH. There just aren't enough non-white people living there to have it make a difference.

I could go on. But there is a real anti-Bernie bias in a lot of places, with MSNBC being one of the worst about it.

Feb 12, 2020#367

Bubble181

Of course there's strong anti-Bernie sentiment. Giving voters the choice between a communist and a fascist in these modern times would probably mean re-electing the fascist.
And I'm well aware Sanders isn't a communist - I'm from Europe, in my country we have an actual communist party to look at and worry - but that's the narrative you'll get for months on end. Choosing him as the democratic nominee may well guarantee Bloomberg as a semi-viable third party candidate, further ensuring a Trump victory.
Anyway, as far as my personal preference goes he's probably third place after Buttigieg and Klobuchar.

Feb 12, 2020#368

Frank

Pete "Service Guarantees Citizenship" Buttigieg and Amy "I'm Extremely Abusive to Everyone Who Works For Me" Klobuchar are both awful candidates. Pete has less minority support than Trump somehow. Bloomberg is just a Republican, right down to the extreme racism.

Feb 12, 2020#369

blotsfan

Frank said:
Pete has less minority support than Trump somehow.

The first black police chief in South Bend (where Pete is mayor) brought up issues of racism in the department, so Pete fired him.

Feb 12, 2020#370

ScytheRexx

This has most of what I want to say in regards to all this.

Let's be honest here, this isn't even about whether he would be a good challenger for Trump or any of that nonsense, it's because all the people in charge of these news corps and other big businesses have no control over him, and that terrifies them. He isn't letting them control the campaign by taking in huge corporate donations, and he is very open about the fact he is going to raise taxes on the super rich. When the super rich own all these companies, of course they are going to downplay Bernie as much as possible. We saw it in 2016 when the DNC literally fucked Bernie out of the nomination in favor of Hillary because she was more corporate friendly.

Some people have called him "The Trump of the left" and while I don't agree with that in any broad sense of the word, I do agree that both are ultimately outliers of their parties that did stuff their own way. It's just Trump is making the rich gain ever more wealth while playing lip service for the poor working class, while Bernie actually wants to lift everyone up, even if that means the rich need to increase their share.

If anything, this next election is going to prove to me whether we even had a democracy at all. If every election comes down to who makes the billionares that control information happy, then how can we call ourselves a real democracy?

Feb 12, 2020#371

Bubble181

I'm not basing my opinion on any one specific source, and definitely not msnbc. My primary source of info about how they're doing is 538, with position info coming from CNN, nyt, the guardian, and others (for example, this forum). I'm definitely not a huge big Buttigieg fan, he's definitely got his issues and seems to me unlikely to become the nominee (this time around, anyway. I do think he may have a decent chance in 4 or 8 years).
Mostly, concerning Sanders, I'm worried about the democratic establishment not supporting him, Bloomberg running as a third party, and his capacity to score outside of "his" demographic - I'm certainly not saying Buttigieg and Klobuchar are perfectly communicating vessels, but together they did much better than Sanders and Warren - the moderates still seem better able to get more votes than the further left candidates. Maybe Sanders would be able to generate more enthusiasm going into the general election than a moderate - certainly one like Biden. Maybe he'd scare off moderate/conservative voters who don't like Trump either, which either of the younger choices might be able to motivate by either being fairly young, or by being female.
I dunno. But I do feel like we're once again getting to a point here were any opinion besides Feeling the Bern is enough to get attacked. Don't forget who the real problem is - not moderate democrats, but the Fascist Party.

Feb 12, 2020#372

Bubble181

ScytheRexx said:
This has most of what I want to say in regards to all this.

Let's be honest here, this isn't even about whether he would be a good challenger for Trump or any of that nonsense, it's because all the people in charge of these news corps and other big businesses have no control over him, and that terrifies them. He isn't letting them control the campaign by taking in huge corporate donations, and he is very open about the fact he is going to raise taxes on the super rich. When the super rich own all these companies, of course they are going to downplay Bernie as much as possible. We saw it in 2016 when the DNC literally fucked Bernie out of the nomination in favor of Hillary because she was more corporate friendly.

Some people have called him "The Trump of the left" and while I don't agree with that in any broad sense of the word, I do agree that both are ultimately outliers of their parties that did stuff their own way. It's just Trump is making the rich gain ever more wealth while playing lip service for the poor working class, while Bernie actually wants to lift everyone up, even if that means the rich need to increase their share.

If anything, this next election is going to prove to me whether we even had a democracy at all. If every election comes down to who makes the billionares that control information happy, then how can we call ourselves a real democracy?

The USA hasn't been a true democracy in decades, a system so built to only allow two parties is inherently anti-democratic. The power of the media being ever-more concentrated in few hands exacerbates the problem. See also: Italy. Similar but not exactly the same: UK.
A system like ours where we're currently looking at coalition options with 7, 8 or 9 parties isn't serious either, as it locks parties in a constant struggle for electability.
Frankly, in a world where all media coverage is 24/7 and everyone screams everything on social media, I'm not sure a representative, elected democracy can still work properly in any form. Census-based random people drawn on a per-topic basis à la juries may or may not be a better system, or maybe something completely different, I dunno.

Feb 12, 2020#373

Shakey

I find it interesting that the typical critique of Klobuchar is always “She’s mean”.

Feb 12, 2020#374

Bubble181

Shakey said:
I find it interesting that the typical critique of Klobuchar is always “She’s mean”.

it's a very typical anti-female critique. Hillary is supposedly a bitch, too. And Warren too. Any woman who dares to strive for power and/or use it is viewed as mean/bitchy/aggressive.

Feb 12, 2020#375

blotsfan

Bubble181 said:
it's a very typical anti-female critique. Hillary is supposedly a bitch, too. And Warren too. Any woman who dares to strive for power and/or use it is viewed as mean/bitchy/aggressive.

Klobuchar has lots of allegations of mental and physically abuse to staffers. Not just "she doesn't smile enough."

Feb 12, 2020#376

Shakey

blotsfan said:
Klobuchar has lots of allegations of mental and physically abuse to staffers. Not just "she doesn't smile enough."

A few. Do you honestly not think it would be reported on differently if she wasn’t female? It would have been written off by saying he was having a bad day, or stressed, or it would just be a non-issue.

I know people who have personally worked for her, and they’ve never said anything like that. I’m not saying the stories didn’t happen, but is it the norm? I doubt it.

Either way, people like to talk about the media bias against Bernie, but then gladly accept and repeat what hear about Klobuchar.

Feb 12, 2020#377

blotsfan

Shakey said:
A few. Do you honestly not think it would be reported on differently if she wasn’t female? It would have been written off by saying he was having a bad day, or stressed, or it would just be a non-issue.

I dunno. Haven't heard anything like that about Warren. Didn't hear about that with Hillary either.

Feb 12, 2020#378

Shakey

blotsfan said:
I dunno. Haven't heard anything like that about Warren. Didn't hear about that with Hillary either.

I remember hearing that all the time with Hillary. Like I said, I’m not saying the people who experienced that are lying, and maybe it is something to consider. I don’t know why it seems to be the biggest reason that people want to dismiss her though. If you talk to people who have either worked for her or with her, that’s not what they see.

If you want to say she’s too moderate? Fine, maybe she is for those who push to the far left. I’m just tired of the need to push the extremes, and I like that she’s not someone who’s going to scare away a good chunk of the population. Yet she doesn’t back down on what’s important to her. So it’s frustrating to see her brushed aside just because of a couple stories that you know wouldn’t have gotten any attention for a male candidate.

Feb 12, 2020#379

blotsfan

Shakey said:
If you want to say she’s too moderate? Fine, maybe she is for those who push to the far left. I’m just tired of the need to push the extremes,

In America, supporting a health system along the lines of literally every other western country makes you "extreme"

Feb 12, 2020#380

Shakey

blotsfan said:
In America, supporting a health system along the lines of literally every other western country makes you "extreme"

Is that what I said?

Feb 12, 2020#381

Ravenpoe

I don't care if Klobuchar is mean. She's a neoliberal centrist that needs to be burned at the stake with the rest of them. Same with Biden, same with Mayor Pete, and I don't even know why Bloomberg is in the discussion since he's basically a republican, but him too.

Feb 12, 2020#382

Bubble181

If you consider Biden and Klobuchar neoliberals - which isn't a centrist position - your view of the political center is seriously skewed. They'd all be centrist in Europe, but the American reality simply is more conservative than the European - and our politics is sadly moving towards yours these days, rather than the other way around.

Feb 12, 2020#383

Shakey

Ravenpoe said:
I don't care if Klobuchar is mean. She's a neoliberal centrist that needs to be burned at the stake with the rest of them. Same with Biden, same with Mayor Pete, and I don't even know why Bloomberg is in the discussion since he's basically a republican, but him too.

Now that is an honest answer, thank you.
I think that’s fine, and I’m not saying you need to sacrifice your beliefs for others, but I worry it will push us even farther on the pendulum.
I think most agree that Obama was a pretty decent president, but I get the feeling he would have never been a candidate to consider today. Are we really at the point where we can’t even consider someone who would be willing to work with the other side?

Feb 12, 2020#384

Bubble181

Shakey said:
Now that is an honest answer, thank you.
I think that’s fine, and I’m not saying you need to sacrifice your beliefs for others, but I worry it will push us even farther on the pendulum.
I think most agree that Obama was a pretty decent president, but I get the feeling he would have never been a candidate to consider today. Are we really at the point where we can’t even consider someone who would be willing to work with the other side?

While I'm more or less a centrist myself, the problem with working with the other side, is the other side becoming ever worse. In the days of Clinton, working with republicans was possible (and some would say he went too far that-away. The banking crisis and our current economic situation can at least partly be attributed to him). The republicans who stalled a supreme court justice appointment for a year, appointed a guy we all know committed sexual assault, defend a president who abused power, etc etc, aren't exactly interested in any kind of moderate compromise.

Feb 12, 2020#385

blotsfan

Shakey said:
Are we really at the point where we can’t even consider someone who would be willing to work with the other side?

The republicans are literally fascists who can not be "worked with" in the slightest. The aforementioned Supreme Court justice nomination that was never listened to was fairly conservative for a democrat to nominate and they did not care. They wanted their fascist. It is naive and foolish to think they've shown any signs of being able to be reasoned with.

Feb 12, 2020#386

Shakey

Bubble181 said:
While I'm more or less a centrist myself, the problem with working with the other side, is the other side becoming ever worse. In the days of Clinton, working with republicans was possible (and some would say he went too far that-away. The banking crisis and our current economic situation can at least partly be attributed to him). The republicans who stalled a supreme court justice appointment for a year, appointed a guy we all know committed sexual assault, defend a president who abused power, etc etc, aren't exactly interested in any kind of moderate compromise.

I didn’t necessarily mean that they have to compromise their beliefs, but at least be able to work with them. As horrible as these last few years have been, we need a way to fix it. Digging in and refusing to work with anyone that doesn’t have the same beliefs as us is a good way to make it worse.

Feb 12, 2020#387

Ravenpoe

Shakey said:
Now that is an honest answer, thank you.
I think that’s fine, and I’m not saying you need to sacrifice your beliefs for others, but I worry it will push us even farther on the pendulum.
I think most agree that Obama was a pretty decent president, but I get the feeling he would have never been a candidate to consider today. Are we really at the point where we can’t even consider someone who would be willing to work with the other side?

Obama was very much a moderate centrist. He should have been a republican's dream of a democratic president they could work with. And how well did that work? It didn't, instead they spent eight years drumming up their racist base and bragging about how they were purposefully doing nothing to get as little policy done as possible.

The problem with trying to be a centrist in this environment is how extreme the right has become. If they say kill all the Jews, you can't come in as a centrist and say hey, let's only kill half the Jews.

Our right has basically turned into Nazis, while our "left" is the rest of the worlds right. So no, I no longer support neo lovers centrist because it doesn't work

Feb 12, 2020#388

Krisken

I would vote for a piece of toast if it is the nominee against Trump.

Feb 12, 2020#389

Shakey

Ravenpoe said:
The problem with trying to be a centrist in this environment is how extreme the right has become. If they say kill all the Jews, you can't come in as a centrist and say hey, let's only kill half the Jews.

Thats not being centrist. That’s being spineless. Being willing to try to work with someone doesn’t necessarily mean you have to compromise your own beliefs. It’s knowing when to try to compromise, and knowing when to walk away.

Feb 12, 2020#390

figmentPez

Shakey said:
Thats not being centrist. That’s being spineless. Being willing to try to work with someone doesn’t necessarily mean you have to compromise your own beliefs. It’s knowing when to try to compromise, and knowing when to walk away.

And what action have Republicans taken in recent memory that gives you any indication that they've left an option other than to walk away?

Feb 12, 2020#391

PatrThom

Ravenpoe said:
they spent eight years drumming up their racist base and bragging about how they were purposefully doing nothing to get as little policy done as possible.

I'm still surprised this behavior didn't immediately initiate a process of systematically removing each and every obstructionist, the same way you would go pull the stumps/stones out of any field where you intended to sow crops.

--Patrick

Feb 12, 2020#392

Shakey

figmentPez said:
And what action have Republicans taken in recent memory that gives you any indication that they've left an option other than to walk away?

I can’t think of any, but that doesn’t mean we stop trying. When we do, it’s just going to get worse. If nothing else we can say we tried.

Feb 12, 2020#393

figmentPez

Shakey said:
I can’t think of any, but that doesn’t mean we stop trying. When we do, it’s just going to get worse. If nothing else we can say we tried.

The problem with this is that there is a cost to continually trying. Making the effort, only to have the football pulled away, has a cost. We can try to keep up appearances, but that's only giving them what they want, and getting less than nothing in return.

Feb 12, 2020#394

blotsfan

Shakey said:
I can’t think of any, but that doesn’t mean we stop trying. When we do, it’s just going to get worse. If nothing else we can say we tried.

If I hear "we can work with republicans" that means "I will accomplish absolutely nothing."

Feb 12, 2020#395

Bubble181

blotsfan said:
If I hear "we can work with republicans" that means "I will accomplish absolutely nothing."

This false logic in reverse is exactly why moderate republicans are now all-but-extinct.
Going ever more partisan is not coming to solve anything. You may disagree with these people, but there are, unfortunately, many relatively moderate people who, given that choice, WILL choose the fascist over the communist.

Feb 12, 2020#396

MindDetective

The only solution is to change voting to something like ranked choice.

Feb 12, 2020#397

figmentPez

Bubble181 said:
This false logic in reverse is exactly why moderate republicans are now all-but-extinct.
Going ever more partisan is not coming to solve anything. You may disagree with these people, but there are, unfortunately, many relatively moderate people who, given that choice, WILL choose the fascist over the communist.

Really? The senate vote to cover up blatant corruption says otherwise. They had a choice, and they chose to back the corrupt leader who is abusing his power.

Feb 12, 2020#398

Shakey

blotsfan said:
If I hear "we can work with republicans" that means "I will accomplish absolutely nothing."

And not working with them will?

Feb 12, 2020#399

figmentPez

Shakey said:
And not working with them will?

If it means a candidate that actually inspires people to vote, YES. The problem is that weak candidates who bow and scrape to Republicans in the hopes of getting crumbs are not candidates that get people to the polls. If there were strong candidates who inspired people to actually show up and vote, this country would shift back to the real center pretty quickly. Getting Democrat control of the House, Senate, and Presidency is a real possibility, and could get shit done fast.

Feb 12, 2020#400

Ravenpoe

Feb 12, 2020#401

Shakey

figmentPez said:
If it means a candidate that actually inspires people to vote, YES. The problem is that weak candidates who bow and scrape to Republicans in the hopes of getting crumbs are not candidates that get people to the polls. If there were strong candidates who inspired people to actually show up and vote, this country would shift back to the real center pretty quickly. Getting Democrat control of the House, Senate, and Presidency is a real possibility, and could get shit done fast.

That works for people who will vote Democrat no matter what, but what about the people who are either independent or republicans who don’t like trump? Do you think a candidate like Bernie inspires them at all? I’m democrat and while I’d vote for Bernie if he’s the candidate there’s nothing about him that inspires me. Honestly he comes off as just another angry old rich white guy to me. His message comes off as “If you don’t agree with me screw you!” Not exactly inspiring or inclusive to me.

Feb 12, 2020#402

figmentPez

Shakey said:
That works for people who will vote Democrat no matter what, but what about the people who are either independent or republicans who don’t like trump? Do you think a candidate like Bernie inspires them at all? I’m democrat and while I’d vote for Bernie if he’s the candidate there’s nothing about him that inspires me. Honestly he comes off as just another angry old rich white guy to me. His message comes off as “If you don’t agree with me screw you!” Not exactly inspiring or inclusive to me.

Congrats, you've just made quite a strawman. There's a difference between not even trying to cooperate with corrupt Republicans, and not cooperating with actual moderates. You're right, Bernie does come across as angry (though every single person who is not a corrupt Republican has very good reason to be pissed off right now), but my stance is not about Bernie. My stance is rejecting the idea that moderates actually want someone who will cooperate with the faux center that Republican repeatedly lie about the existence of. (Do note that there are no moderates with the Republican party. Zero. Nada. They do not exist. There is not a single Republican in office who is a moderate.)

There's a difference between "This is moderate politics, and we will stand for that, we don't need to cooperate with corrupt idiots who are trying to promote a Trump dynasty." And "We're going to pull the entire country back to the center by pushing for our own personal ideals at any cost and expecting things to even out in the end."

Feb 12, 2020#403

blotsfan

Shakey said:
That works for people who will vote Democrat no matter what, but what about the people who are either independent or republicans who don’t like trump?

I consider these people lost causes. The people that lost the election in 2016 were the people that voted for obama and then stayed home. I'd rather have someone who inspires them than run with Jack Johnson or John Jackson.

Feb 12, 2020#404

Shakey

blotsfan said:
I consider these people lost causes. The people that lost the election in 2016 were the people that voted for obama and then stayed home. I'd rather have someone who inspires them than run with Jack Johnson or John Jackson.

I think that had more to do with everyone being so tired of Hillary, and the general thought that there was no way Trump would win, so staying home was more of a protest vote. But maybe you’re all right, and it’s not worth trying to appeal to the center. It just doesn’t speak to me.

Feb 12, 2020#405

Dei

I am confident that we don't even know what the center is anymore, so trying to appeal to it is fruitless. I am all for parties having to cooperate and compromise, but it's not going to happen right now. The separation didn't happen out of the blue, it's been steadily getting worse for the last 40 years. Saying "Oh we should keep trying to compromise," while the Turtle in the Senate literally lets bills pile up rather than risking people crossing the line and voting for them speaks volumes. If all those "moderates" and "Republicans who don't like Trump" choose to not vote instead of voting Dem, it's as good as voting Dem at this point. It's the people that actually care about removing Trump as the #1 priority that the Dems should be courting.

Feb 12, 2020#406

Krisken

Spot on, Dei. Everything you said, put me down for all of that as well.

Feb 12, 2020#407

jwhouk

Bubble181 said:
This false logic in reverse is exactly why moderate republicans are now all-but-extinct.
Going ever more partisan is not coming to solve anything. You may disagree with these people, but there are, unfortunately, many relatively moderate people who, given that choice, WILL choose the fascist over the communist.

The problem is that the GOP doesn't want to go left. At all. They haven't been progressive since LaFollette got kicked out.

Feb 12, 2020#408

Dave

You can no longer compromise with the right. Ever.

Feb 12, 2020#409

Krisken

Sorry, yeah. There is no meeting in the middle. I've been watching this shit move right too long. I'm so tired of "This Democrat is to left to win" bullshit as we watch these crazy fuckers on the right play ideology games while the nation just moves with them. Hard pass.

Feb 13, 2020#410

ScytheRexx

I honestly don't think there are any "moderates" anymore. Even the times I saw the media interview "moderates" it ended up being a gaggle of generally well off white families that 90% of the time voted Republican.

The win or loss is going to come down to democratic voter turnout in a few key states. This is why whoever wins the candidacy needs to whip those "purple" states into a frenzy.

This is what Obama did, and the main reason he held two terms. Hillary just looked at the polls, saw some of those states as "safe" and proceeded to ignore them in favor of more wealthy donor states, thus tens of thousands of voters decided to reward that by just not showing up. I did the math, and if Trump battled Obama with any of Obama's numbers from either of his elections in every battleground state, Trump would have lost by a landslide.

Honestly, this seems to be the general trend. Every election always comes down to whether democrat voters decide to bother or not. If they do, the democrat usually wins. When they don't, the republican usually does. A lot of this is because democrats are, or at least people that lean left, actually far more numerous, but also a lot more picky about their votes. This is a big switch from republicans, who will often vote for their candidate no matter who he is.

Feb 13, 2020#411

Bubble181

I just want to point out that all of you are conflating two things: being moderate, and trying to compromise.
A compromise is when neither get what they want, and you settle on something halfway. Being moderate is wanting something that's not at either extreme.
These two are related and one can mask as the other, but they're really not the same.
Plenty of issues where my personal preference is left-of-center, but far from left. Any topic I choose could be ground for debates, but eh. Some people want black t-shirts. Some want white. As a compromise, you might settle on grey. It's still perfectly possible for other people to have a preference for grey!
Admittedly, this has in modern history been abused by the right to find a middle ground between grey and black, settling on charcoal, only for the next cycle to look for a compromise between charcoal and black, etc.
The other side might be trying to push for Vantablack these days, which might freak people out who prefer charcoal or grey. You won't win those back by going for Spectralon. You might be able to win some of those back or convince the grey to come to your side by offering some light grey tint, though.
Because there are simply more people that want Vantablack than there are that want Spectralon - and everyone who wants eggshell or ecru or grey or taupe is left with an impossible choice. Yes, the charcoal people who are helping Vantablack are starting to look mighty dark - but you still have to take into account the people having a different preference.

Feb 13, 2020#412

jwhouk

Problem, dear Owlboy, is that the GOP neither wishes to compromise nor be moderate. Compromise, in their terms, means doing it their way. Moderation also means "you move first."

Feb 13, 2020#413

GasBandit

ScytheRexx said:
. A lot of this is because democrats are, or at least people that lean left, actually far more numerous, but also a lot more picky about their votes.

I'm not sure this is entirely true. Granted, it's been a few years since I seriously looked at the polls, but last time I looked (which granted was early in the Obama administration) more people "identified" as conservative than liberal. I think the split was something like 40% conservative, 35% liberal, 25% moderate/independent. Granted, it's a poll and people could lie, but I think the McCain candidacy demonstrated that Republican voters have the same inclination to stay home on election day if their candidate is uninspiring.

Thing is, I think lately they're all on the "take our country back" warpath, and as has been repeatedly noted, all they care about is defeating democrats, and not who they are actually voting for. So, maybe you're right about the "democrats are more picky" part.

Feb 13, 2020#414

ScytheRexx

GasBandit said:
I think the split was something like 40% conservative, 35% liberal, 25% moderate/independent. Granted, it's a poll and people could lie, but I think the McCain candidacy demonstrated that Republican voters have the same inclination to stay home on election day if their candidate is uninspiring.

One thing to be aware is that a lot of people that identify as "moderate/independent" usually still lean one direction. I identify as an independent voter myself because I don't really buy into the entire DNC platform enough to call myself a democrat, but they cover more of my bigger issues then republicans, and don't feel as grossly corrupt after the Trump debacle. In the end, I vote for who I think is the better candidate, but 7 out of 10 times I find it's the democrat.

If we go by the PEW data since 1994, both sides were actually rather evenly split between 1994 and 2002 when taking into account "leaning" independents, but that has been shifting a lot in the last few years as more people seem to be dropping the republican title and more independents lean liberal. This is why I added "left leaning" people, it's not going to be up just to democrats, but anyone that leans to the left including independents. If they actually turn up, it's more likely they are going to win.

Feb 13, 2020#415

Terrik

I mean, I switched my voting registration from Independent to Democrat for Florida's upcoming primary because I wouldn't be able to vote otherwise, but I don't honestly heavily identify with either party.

Feb 13, 2020#416

Dei

OH BOY, MY PRIMARY BALLOT IS COMING IN THE MAIL TODAY. -_-

It is already out of date and includes 18 people who have dropped out. lololololol

(Also, my husband will actually get to vote as an Independent this year because the caucus is GONE BABY GONE)

Feb 13, 2020#417

DarkAudit

Terrik said:
I mean, I switched my voting registration from Independent to Democrat for Florida's upcoming primary because I wouldn't be able to vote otherwise, but I don't honestly heavily identify with either party.

After the state party showed its true colors by screaming "FUCK OBAMA" for six years, I dropped my party affiliation. I'll fall in line behind whomever comes up against cheeto in November, but state and local, there isn't a one I'd piss on if they were on fire.

The only reason I'm still here is I don't have the means to leave.

Feb 13, 2020#418

@Li3n

Feb 15, 2020#419

Frank

Bloomberg sucks so bad.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/politics/michael-bloomberg-women/

Feb 15, 2020#420

GasBandit

Frank said:
Bloomberg sucks so bad.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/politics/michael-bloomberg-women/

For any who wish to read the article, you can add the following filters to your ublock origin to disable the washington post's paywall from preventing your viewing.

Code:

||subscribe.washingtonpost.com/paywall/$subdocument
www.washingtonpost.com##.wall_background

Feb 15, 2020#421

PatrThom

“Reader mode” also works.

I mean, I’m not exactly loving his campaign either, but that’s more because the recent barrage of his ads featuring Obama I keep getting feel like less “here is an endorsement from a former president” and more “Look, everyone! I associate with this famous Black person. We’re buds.”

—Patrick

Feb 15, 2020#422

Dei

Feb 15, 2020#423

ScytheRexx

And people ask me why I can't get on the Buttigieg train.

Feb 15, 2020#424

MindDetective

*roll eyes* That is how every typical candidate raises money. Picking on Buttigieg for it is dishonest on its face.

Feb 15, 2020#425

Krisken

Dei said:

Joe Walsh. Joe. Walsh. That's the last person I thought would have a clear view.

Feb 15, 2020#426

ScytheRexx

MindDetective said:
*roll eyes* That is how every typical candidate raises money. Picking on Buttigieg for it is dishonest on its face.

I know that, but that's the point. Some of us are tired of having our politicians just taking a shit ton of money from special interests. I hate it when Biden does it, I hate it when Warren does it, and I am just ready to vote for the person that does not do it as much.

Feb 15, 2020#427

MindDetective

ScytheRexx said:
I know that, but that's the point. Some of us are tired of having our politicians just taking a shit ton of money from special interests. I hate it when Biden does it, I hate it when Warren does it, and I am just ready to vote for the person that does not do it as much.

Sure, but that is a different message than that tweet. I appreciate a pro-Sanders message but an anti-<candidate> message rankles me, especially when it seems to unfairly target a single candidate for something everyone does.

Feb 16, 2020#428

PatrThom

MindDetective said:
something everyone does.

Now you're just going to start up the whole Citizens United thing again.
We already acknowledge that SLAPP suits stifle speech by allowing people with money to spend money for the express purpose of silencing/drowning out people who don't have money, but for some reason it's ok when it's relabeled as "funding a political campaign."

--Patrick

Feb 16, 2020#429

MindDetective

PatrThom said:
Now you're just going to start up the whole Citizens United thing again.
We already acknowledge that SLAPP suits stifle speech by allowing people with money to spend money for the express purpose of silencing/drowning out people who don't have money, but for some reason it's ok when it's relabeled as "funding a political campaign."

--Patrick

Let's bring it up so we can put it down.

Feb 16, 2020#430

Bubble181

According to the Drudge Report (admittedly, what a source!), Bloomberg is considering Clinton as a running mate.
Can these people not see how strongly this goes against everything the current voters want? Sheesh.

Feb 16, 2020#431

PatrThom

Bubble181 said:
Can these people not see how strongly this goes against everything the current voters want?

Just think how much they'll listen to the voters after the election!

--Patrick

Feb 16, 2020#432

ScytheRexx

Honestly, I question very much Bloomberg's intentions.

The guy only just recently rejoined the democratic party after years as a republican and independent. He came into the race itself rather late, and rumors are if he does not win the nomination he will just run on a full independent ticket, and honestly I see that bringing nothing but a Trump win in 2020 as the democratic vote gets muddy.

I mean, why wouldn't he be okay helping Trump win? Yes, I know, very conspiracy theory here, but I feel if he still runs, his intention was never to win, but just to make sure someone like Sanders loses. Howard Shultz pretty much had the same idea before backing out over backlash, because when you are rich, you likely would rather have Trump remain as president over someone like Sanders.

Feb 19, 2020#433

Frank

Bloomberg is awful trash with an even worse history of sexual misconduct than Trump. Anyone supporting him shows that if Trump's hat were blue, they'd be all in there too.

Feb 19, 2020#434

Bubble181

Frank said:
Bloomberg is awful trash with an even worse history of sexual misconduct than Trump. Anyone supporting him shows that if Trump's hat were blue, they'd be all in there too.

And I'm pretty sure we'll end up with a convention with Bernie with most delegates, and Bloomberg getting the support of the democratic establishment, because they're completely clueless and useless.

Feb 19, 2020#435

blotsfan

If Bloomberg isn't finished after tonight, nothing can ever stop him.

Feb 19, 2020#436

PatrThom

blotsfan said:
If Bloomberg isn't finished after tonight, nothing can ever stop him.

"Bloomberg, the only Republican candidate with a [D]."

--Patrick

Feb 19, 2020#437

Shakey

blotsfan said:
If Bloomberg isn't finished after tonight, nothing can ever stop him.

He’ll be done when he wants to be done. My guess is most people don’t pay much attention to debates. It’s all about Facebook ads and paying people to pretend to like you.

Feb 20, 2020#438

Frank

What a fucking ghoul.

Elizabeth Warren is a bully though, she should pick on someone her own size.

Feb 20, 2020#439

Bubble181

His money all bu guarantees he can stay in the running. Polls indicate Democrats are just as happy voting for the guy whose name they know from TV as Republicans. I'm far from a Bernie fan, but I'm starting to hope he gets the majority of delegates - simply because a convention where Bernie gets some 40% of them, and Bloomberg 20%, is almost guaranteed to end with all other candidates backing Bloomberg which would be a horrible bad idea.

Feb 20, 2020#440

blotsfan

Bubble181 said:
is almost guaranteed to end with all other candidates backing Bloomberg which would be a horrible bad idea.

Warren 1000% would back Bernie over Bloomberg. The only one I really think wouldn't is Buttigeig.

Feb 20, 2020#441

Bubble181

blotsfan said:
Warren 1000% would back Bernie over Bloomberg. The only one I really think wouldn't is Buttigeig.

Biden and Klobuchar wouldn't, either, in my opinion. We'll see how it all turns out. The party leadership will pull a lot of strings to make it anyone-but-Sanders - which would not be in their interest, but hey, idiots be idiots.

Feb 20, 2020#442

blotsfan

I could be wrong*, but I think Bloomberg is so thoroughly awful that he'd be an exception.

*I probably am

Feb 20, 2020#443

Bubble181

blotsfan said:
I could be wrong*, but I think Bloomberg is so thoroughly awful that he'd be an exception.

*I probably am

I sincerely hope you're right. Clinton had her issues, but Bloomberg? I mean, yes, probably, lesser of two evils, but eating 95% of a shit sandwich instead of 100% isn't going to convince anyone to go vote.

Feb 20, 2020#444

PatrThom

Bubble181 said:
The party leadership will pull a lot of strings to make it anyone-but-Sanders - which would not be in their interest, but hey, idiots be idiots.

Hey, “Party over People” isn’t exclusive to Republicans.

—Patrick

Feb 20, 2020#445

Tiger Tsang

Thread by @guek_jc: There is a LOT of misinformation regarding doctor's letters in lieu of the ones @BernieSanders released, in no small part because the modern…

Thread by @guek_jc: There is a LOT of misinformation regarding doctor's letters in lieu of the ones @BernieSanders released, in no small partse the modern journalist has no idea how to report on science/medicine, so I thought I'd take it upon myself as a…

threadreaderapp.com

Feb 22, 2020#446

blotsfan

He legit might be less likable than trump. At least I actually believe trump genuinely enjoys his shit fast food.

Feb 22, 2020#447

PatrThom

“Mike enjoys subs WAIT NO THAT’S NOT WHAT I MEANT”
Vice signaling, maybe?

—Patrick

Feb 22, 2020#448

Dave

Couple of things today. First, Twitter is removing a shitload of pro-Bloomberg accounts as fake. Second, Bernie is fucking killing it in Nevada. Like landslide huge. Three states, three wins. What you say now, DNC? Still think he can't win?

Feb 22, 2020#449

Ravenpoe

Dave said:
Couple of things today. First, Twitter is removing a shitload of pro-Bloomberg accounts as fake. Second, Bernie is fucking killing it in Nevada. Like landslide huge. Three states, three wins. What you say now, DNC? Still think he can't win?

But people won't vote for him, so ignore all those people voting for him.

Feb 22, 2020#450

blotsfan

I don't know if Bernie can beat trump. I do know that every other nominee can't.

Feb 22, 2020#451

phil

Early voted today for sempai Sanders.

Feb 22, 2020#452

PatrThom

I never thought I would see something like The Stainless Steel Rat For President play out in real life, yet here we are.

—Patrick

Feb 22, 2020#453

Krisken

Bernie wins Nevada. Buttigieg then goes on to complain to a crowd that Bernie can't win a general election.

Yeah, not if you attack him, you fuckwit. I'm so tired of the 'unelectible' argument. Three years ago people were fine with voting for a sexist misogynist with ZERO experience. Maybe focus on THAT for a while.

Feb 22, 2020#454

DarkAudit

Krisken said:
Three years ago people were fine with voting for a ~~sexist misogynist with ZERO experience~~ fucking nazi.

FTFY

Feb 23, 2020#455

@Li3n

Didn't all 2016 polls have Bernie beat Trump by a way bigger margin then Hillary's?

Feb 23, 2020#456

blotsfan

Not saying he wouldn't have won in 2016, but those polls are kinda iffy since he was facing none of the scrutiny/attacks he would be if he actually was the nominee.

Feb 23, 2020#457

@Li3n

Somehow i don't think Comey would have been able to Weiner his campaign a week before the election.

Or are we pretending Trump won because people wantd him, and not because the the Rep Prop Machine had been sowing doubts about Hillary for years, and that still didn't put him over the top until the e-mail tihng resurfaced at the right/wrong time?

Feb 23, 2020#458

PatrThom

@Li3n said:
Didn't all 2016 polls have Bernie beat Trump by a way bigger margin then Hillary's?

Yes but despite getting more votes, he was unelectable... unlike Hillary, who was electable, yet got fewer votes.

--Patrick

Feb 23, 2020#459

blotsfan

PatrThom said:
Yes but despite getting more votes, he was unelectable... unlike Hillary, who was electable, yet got fewer votes.

--Patrick

??

Hillary got more votes than Bernie in the primary and Trump in the general.

Feb 23, 2020#460

Dave

So Bernie wins Nevada. So, of course, Chris Matthews says it's a lot like the nazis invading France. Basically saying at this point that he's unstoppable. But MAYBE there was a better way of saying it. Because, you know, Sanders is jewish and had family members killed in the Holocaust.

Matthews is just a scared old fuck who needs to go, along with a lot of other scared old fucks.

Feb 23, 2020#461

Dei

TBH, I'm pretty sure Bernie isn't going to get shit done as President, and at most will have one term. I voted for him in the primaries in 2016 because I didn't agree with the Bush/Clinton "dynasty," but I didn't think for a hot second he would have the cooperation of Congress to do anything he wanted. If through some miracle Dems squeak out ownership of both houses of Congress and win the presidency with Bernie as the nominee, most of the Dems there are not going to agree with Sanders on what policies should be. So by the time his term nears its end, assuming he makes it to then, We'll be back to the old pattern of Demoralized Dems and an Energized Republican base who will probably nominate Ivanka or fuck knows what.

Feb 23, 2020#462

Bubble181

Dei said:
TBH, I'm pretty sure Bernie isn't going to get shit done as President, and at most will have one term. I voted for him in the primaries in 2016 because I didn't agree with the Bush/Clinton "dynasty," but I didn't think for a hot second he would have the cooperation of Congress to do anything he wanted. If through some miracle Dems squeak out ownership of both houses of Congress and win the presidency with Bernie as the nominee, most of the Dems there are not going to agree with Sanders on what policies should be. So by the time his term nears its end, assuming he makes it to then, We'll be back to the old pattern of Demoralized Dems and an Energized Republican base who will probably nominate Ivanka or fuck knows what.

I still honestly don't think Bernie will ever be president, because the democratic leadership would rather hand the presidency back to Trump by supporting a third candidate - Bloomberg, probably - than really support Sanders.

Feb 23, 2020#463

phil

As far as getting things done I realize that getting all or even any of what we want isn't incredibly likely. What I'm hoping for is if we can start off at Medicare for all maybe we can end up with Medicare for most. If we start with Medicare for most, we'll end up with lil' peety-care where we give up pre-existing conditions but premiums will be lowered by half a percent over the next five years or Bloomberg-care which will redefine women as "not people" and thus not eligible for healthcare.

Feb 23, 2020#464

jwhouk

...and three years after they enact it the GOP will get the courts to strike down M4A or whatever ends up getting passed.

If it gets passed.

Feb 24, 2020#465

ScytheRexx

I understand the need to be cynical but can we wait till we hopefully get the orange man out of office before we start talking about how nothing will pass? Baby steps.

Feb 24, 2020#466

blotsfan

Not to mention I'd rather have a dude giving it a go than someone who says "it will probably fail so I might as well just be republican-lite."

Feb 24, 2020#467

Dei

Really, I just wish I had ranked choice for primaries.

Feb 24, 2020#468

evilmike

One thing to remember about "it will never pass", the Trump administration is practically a worst case example of how much damage the President can do without congressional approval.

Feb 24, 2020#469

PatrThom

evilmike said:
he Trump administration is practically a worst case example of how much damage the President can do without congressional approval.

I still don’t think they “approve” of what he does so much as that it serves their interests, so they allow it to continue. I think McConnell is more directly the cause of “never pass” than Trump ever was.

—Patrick

Feb 24, 2020#470

D

Dubyamn

Dei said:
TBH, I'm pretty sure Bernie isn't going to get shit done as President, and at most will have one term. I voted for him in the primaries in 2016 because I didn't agree with the Bush/Clinton "dynasty," but I didn't think for a hot second he would have the cooperation of Congress to do anything he wanted.

Unlike Biden who will usher in a golden age of bipartisanship and effective legislation from Congress?

A Democrat presidency bogged down by an unhelpful Congress is probably going to be the norm for the rest of my life. The politics are just too strong for the Republicans for them to ever come back to effective legislating no matter who the Democrat president is.

Feb 25, 2020#471

@Li3n

A handy guide: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51470131

And it has pictures:

Feb 25, 2020#472

PatrThom

I want to know how they determined who to include/exclude in each graphic.

—Patrick

Feb 25, 2020#473

bhamv3

So... where would Bernie be on the "Taxes" image?

Feb 25, 2020#474

figmentPez

Wow, "punish the rich"... That's an extremely biased way to phrase that. Especially compared to "cut, cut, cut".

Feb 25, 2020#475

Ravenpoe

figmentPez said:
Wow, "punish the rich"... That's an extremely biased way to phrase that. Especially compared to "cut, cut, cut".

The article agreed and changed that to 'target the wealthy,' though I personally would still like to punish the rich.

Feb 25, 2020#476

figmentPez

So, Bloomberg said that Russia is working on behalf of Bernie Sanders, because Russia thinks that Bernie will lose to Trump....

Has anyone looked into Bloomberg's ties to Russia? If one billionaire, misogynist, racist, real estate mogul was backed by Russia to be president, I would assume that another billionaire, misogynist, racist, real estate mogul is also on their list of allies.

Feb 26, 2020#477

PatrThom

Ravenpoe said:
I personally would still like to punish the rich.

I don't think anyone should have to suffer simply because they have a big pile of money.
Wielding it irresponsibly, though, now that's another story.

--Patrick

Feb 26, 2020#478

Shakey

figmentPez said:
So, Bloomberg said that Russia is working on behalf of Bernie Sanders, because Russia thinks that Bernie will lose to Trump....

Has anyone looked into Bloomberg's ties to Russia? If one billionaire, misogynist, racist, real estate mogul was backed by Russia to be president, I would assume that another billionaire, misogynist, racist, real estate mogul is also on their list of allies.

Well, he’s not wrong. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wa...a-929a-64efa7482a77_story.html?outputType=amp

As to why Russia is helping Bernie above others, who knows. My guess it’s less about can Bernie beatTrump and more about him being a more radical and polarizing candidate.

Feb 26, 2020#479

Bubble181

Russia's goal is not to install a president who is strong against abortion and good for the wealthy. They probably couldn't care less.
What they want is an America divided, weak on the international stage, ineffective, navel-gazing. Under Trump, America has achieved exactly diddly-squat on the international forum, letting Russia do as they please.
A polarizing candidate like Bernie - especially when weakened a bit more by being called out as a cryptocommunist who only won due to Russian interference - will achieve nothing internationally - having to focus on domestic issues and so on.
If it's a Bernie-Trump match-up, I'm pretty sure Russia wins either way. A candidate like...ugh....Biden, might actually try and restore some of America's international shine, get NATO working again, try and say things about human rights.

Feb 26, 2020#480

@Li3n

Bubble181 said:
A polarizing candidate like Bernie - especially when weakened a bit more by being called out as a cryptocommunist who only won due to Russian interference - will achieve nothing internationally - having to focus on domestic issues and so on.

I'll just post this again since it's relevant to the international situation on healthcare:

Getting closer to the damn conservative UK opinion on it will bloody help internationally a lot.

Plus, any candidate that isn't Trump will restore the US's standing by not being an insecure narcissist that others have to dumb down any sort of explanation.

Feb 26, 2020#481

Dave

The crowd

@Li3n said:
Plus, any candidate that isn't Trump* will restore the US's standing by not being an insecure narcissist that others have to dumb down any sort of explanation.

*Sole exception is Bloomberg

Feb 26, 2020#482

evilmike

@Li3n said:

I'm pretty sure this needs to be a logarithmic scale.

Feb 29, 2020#483

Bubble181

Choosing between Sanders and Trump would be a disaster

It's this sort of opinion I think we'll be seeing a lot more of...and which will hand Trump the election, because it'll properly scare away all moderate voters from the democratic party. And/or warm them up for a third party bid by someone with enough money *cough*Bloomberg*cough*.
Idiots, idiots, idiots.

Feb 29, 2020#484

blotsfan

You say "idiots" like that person wouldn't want trump over bernie.

Feb 29, 2020#485

Ravenpoe

Bubble181 said:
Choosing between Sanders and Trump would be a disaster

It's this sort of opinion I think we'll be seeing a lot more of...and which will hand Trump the election, because it'll properly scare away all moderate voters from the democratic party. And/or warm them up for a third party bid by someone with enough money *cough*Bloomberg*cough*.
Idiots, idiots, idiots.

Nah

Feb 29, 2020#486

Bubble181

blotsfan said:
You say "idiots" like that person wouldn't want trump over bernie.

That doesn't make them any less of an idiot.

Mar 1, 2020#487

blotsfan

Steyer is out.

Incidentally, know who's still running? Tulsi Gabbard.

Mar 1, 2020#488

Bubble181

blotsfan said:
Steyer is out.

Incidentally, know who's still running? Tulsi Gabbard.

Staying in like this you'd think she's an issues candidate, except...I wouldn't have a clue what issues she cares about.
I'm curious to see what Tuesday will bring. Warren, Gabbard might well throw in the towel, and I guess Klobuchar and Buttigieg might as well, too, if they don't outperform their polling. Name recognition for future top spot has been achieved, one would think. I really can't tell how it'll all shape up and what will happen with Bloomberg. Please please please let him seriously underperform.

Mar 1, 2020#489

blotsfan

Bubble181 said:
Staying in like this you'd think she's an issues candidate, except...I wouldn't have a clue what issues she cares about.

She's trying to set up a narrative that the DNC rigged it against her so she can get a cushy Fox News job.

Mar 1, 2020#490

D

Dubyamn

Bubble181 said:
Choosing between Sanders and Trump would be a disaster

It's this sort of opinion I think we'll be seeing a lot more of...and which will hand Trump the election, because it'll properly scare away all moderate voters from the democratic party. And/or warm them up for a third party bid by someone with enough money *cough*Bloomberg*cough*.
Idiots, idiots, idiots.

Democrats ran that candidate in 2016. She lost and now we're dealing with that fallout.

Mar 1, 2020#491

blotsfan

Pete is done. What a quick rise, then fall. Good riddance.

Mar 1, 2020#492

Bubble181

That timing's just...odd. The day before Super Tuesday?
That just reeks of someone higher up pushing reeaally hard to convince him to stop to give Biden his shot at keeping up with Sanders.
I mean, everybody knew perfectly well Buttigieg wasn't going to be the nominee this time around. But picking up some more delegates would've made for a stronger case for a plushy job later on - or a presidential bid 4-8 years from now.

Mar 1, 2020#493

Frank

Yeah, they're doing all the can to torpedo Bernie. If he loses, that's fine. If he goes in with the majority of delegates and they super delegate him out, that's literally going to tank the Democratic party for a long fucking time.

Mar 1, 2020#494

PatrThom

Frank said:
If he goes in with the majority of delegates and they super delegate him out, that's literally going to tank ~~the Democratic party~~ Democracy for a long fucking time.

FTFY

--Patrick

Mar 1, 2020#495

MindDetective

Bubble181 said:
That timing's just...odd. The day before Super Tuesday?
That just reeks of someone higher up pushing reeaally hard to convince him to stop to give Biden his shot at keeping up with Sanders.
I mean, everybody knew perfectly well Buttigieg wasn't going to be the nominee this time around. But picking up some more delegates would've made for a stronger case for a plushy job later on - or a presidential bid 4-8 years from now.

My guess: Biden/Buttigieg ticket if Biden comes out on top.

Mar 1, 2020#496

Dave

Frank said:
Yeah, they're doing all the can to torpedo Bernie. If he loses, that's fine. If he goes in with the majority of delegates and they super delegate him out, that's literally going to tank the Democratic party for a long fucking time.

That's exactly it. Watch in the next day or few days as he backs Biden and throws his delegates that way. That gives Biden Iowa as well as a tie in New Hampshire.

These people REALLY want to see Trump get term #2, even if it implodes the country. Can't have a progressive like Bernie get the job. That's scary to the elite.

Mar 1, 2020#497

blotsfan

Mar 1, 2020#498

Dave

It would be sad if it weren't so comically transparent.

Mar 1, 2020#499

jwhouk

I voted for Sanders.

Again.

Mar 2, 2020#500

Dave

Dave said:
That's exactly it. Watch in the next day or few days as he backs Biden and throws his delegates that way. That gives Biden Iowa as well as a tie in New Hampshire.

These people REALLY want to see Trump get term #2, even if it implodes the country. Can't have a progressive like Bernie get the job. That's scary to the elite.

And in today's news, Dave is right again.

Pete Buttigieg endorses Joe Biden

Pete Buttigieg endorsed Joe Biden for president Monday night, telling a crowd in Dallas the former Vice President is the right candidate to "bring back dignity to the White House."

www.cnn.com

It would be sad if it weren't so comically transparent.

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