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Digital vs Traditional Print: This time it's personal.

#1

Espy

Espy

So we all know Borders has gone out of business: http://money.msn.com/exchange-traded-fund/dispatch.aspx?post=8cef1cd2-3da3-4436-9b2d-cd0b1ea01fc7

People are hailing this as the end of traditional print and book buying, but lets really think about it. How interested are you in switching all the way over to digital for your books magazines?

Will you miss local big box bookstores? Will used bookstores continue to thrive? Will you go digital for books? Magazines? Why? Why not?


#2

Piotyr

Piotyr

I'm actually personally and professionally interested in how this will affect another branch of traditional print: the library. Are libraries obsolete? Should we convert libraries to quiet sitting rooms of downloadable electronic media and WiFi?

We actually spent this past summer migrating our IT department and public computer lab space into our library, cutting into the bookshelf space by about 1/3. Next summer this building is up for renovation, and we're wondering just how far we should take this.


#3

GasBandit

GasBandit

I do prefer digital books, so long as there aren't REMOTE CONTROL SELF DESTRUCT ALGORITHMS in them. But for me, the main reason is ease of portability and storage. They take up less shelves.


#4



makare

I like holding books and magazines in my hands also I read in the bath and I don't want to drop an electronic in the tub.


#5

BananaHands

BananaHands

As weird as this sounds, I always feel more fulfilled after reading from an actual book than off a nook.

Traditional big book stores are on their way out. I'd rather order a book from amazon or download something on to my nook than having to track down someone working at Barnes and Noble, only to find that the book isn't there.


#6

Azurephoenix

Azurephoenix

I still prefer the feel of a book (something about the tactile nature pleases me) but they do end up taking up a lot of space. I currently have a combination of digital books and real books and I like it just fine.


#7



makare

I love the way bookshelves look crowded with books. I even like my room with the full shelves and the piles of books lying around because I don't have enough shelves for them. There is always enough space for books if you like having them lying around.


#8

Chad Sexington

Chad Sexington

I'm torn, because the efficient me wants to convert entirely. I hate clutter, I try not to own much 'stuff' (though I still have too much 'stuff'), and I suppose it would save me some money (maybe even a lot of money). But the sentimental me just loves holding a book. There's something about the texture, even the 'smell' of a book that can't be replaced.


#9



makare

Chad Sexington said:
I'm torn, because the efficient me wants to convert entirely. I hate clutter, I try not to own much 'stuff' (though I still have too much 'stuff'), and I suppose it would save me some money (maybe even a lot of money). But the sentimental me just loves holding a book. There's something about the texture, even the 'smell' of a book that can't be replaced.
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I liked that because I love the smell of books not because I hate clutter. I love clutter.


#10

Chad Sexington

Chad Sexington

BananaHands said:
As weird as this sounds, I always feel more fulfilled after reading from an actual book than off a nook.
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I didn't think about this. Closing a book is like an achievement, there's this lovely that release that comes with finishing it. Plus you can bear witness to your triumph: look at those hundreds, thousands! of pages you've conquered.


#11

BananaHands

BananaHands

Also, used book stores are great. I love getting a book and seeing that the previous owner scribbled little notes/thoughts in the margin.


#12

Shegokigo

Shegokigo

I love books, I love my bookshelves cluttered with my collection of manga and novels..... that being said, I wish I had been born 50yrs into the future when all media is just read on a piece of tech so that I didn't have any of these attachments. Reading in the bathtub? No problem, have a tech holder that fits on both sides of the tub and holds the tech in the perfect spot over your face. I for one would kill for something like that when I'm trying to read in bed.

First I'm lying on my back, holding my book up. My arms get tired. I switch to lying on my stomach and having the book flat on the bed. My elbows/arms get tired. I switch to my side. Same deal. It's ridiculously annoying to be shifting all over the place just to read. If I could lie on my back, and have some kind of tech holder, hold the tech I'm reading off of at the right height above me? I'd probably read 10x more.


#13



makare

I like holding my book.


#14

Shegokigo

Shegokigo

Because you're used to it. So do I. Hence why I said I wished I had been born in a time that was past that, so that the attachment wouldn't be there.


#15

MindDetective

MindDetective

I want to make my classroom paperless and my bookshelf paperless. It won't be overnight but it is my long term hope. I seem to move every few years and am expecting to move again in 2 or 3 years. Books are damn heavy, they can take up a lot of space, and after I have read them once, they are basically decoration (99.99% of them, anyway). To me, books are information, and that can be stored digitally. I just checked out from my library my first digital book. Next I will be trying an audio book. The selection for digital checkouts is not fantastic and it rather difficult to just browse like I can with physical books, but I can definitely see the potential. To be honest, there is only one thing that bothers me about going all digital: What will we leave behind for people to discover if everything is digital?


#16

GasBandit

GasBandit

My father's house has two rooms in the basement that the previous owner had made into bedrooms for his teenaged sons, so that their loud music would not disturb him in the master bedroom on the second floor. These two rooms are now referred to as the "fiction dungeon" and "nonfiction dungeon." two bedrooms entirely lined/aisled with bookshelves, filled with books. Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of books. I'll have to ask him how he'd feel about having all that in electronic format instead of hard copy... it might be an interesting answer.

The main room is full of shelves and shelves of VHS tapes that required a half-inch-thick database printout, but that's another story.


#17

Piotyr

Piotyr

MindDetective said:
To be honest, there is only one thing that bothers me about going all digital: What will we leave behind for people to discover if everything is digital?
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#18



Biannoshufu

Digital, mostly, with the treasured hardbacks still taking up space on my shelves. When I no longer need to read them, I gift them to a friend. I think there is still a strong place for the smaller independent bookstores, that are also coffee clatch havens and not just bookshelf warehouses.


#19

figmentPez

figmentPez

eBooks? Call me back when electronic paper has a color version that looks as good as as a modern comic book, and costs as much as B&W readers do now.


#20

fade

fade

MindDetective said:
I want to make my classroom paperless and my bookshelf paperless. It won't be overnight but it is my long term hope. I seem to move every few years and am expecting to move again in 2 or 3 years. Books are damn heavy, they can take up a lot of space, and after I have read them once, they are basically decoration (99.99% of them, anyway). To me, books are information, and that can be stored digitally. I just checked out from my library my first digital book. Next I will be trying an audio book. The selection for digital checkouts is not fantastic and it rather difficult to just browse like I can with physical books, but I can definitely see the potential. To be honest, there is only one thing that bothers me about going all digital: What will we leave behind for people to discover if everything is digital?
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I like digital for scientific articles. They were a pain to store and index before pdfs became so commonplace. But I prefer my books as books. Books in my office tend to serve as references, and I can access them more easily in paper form.

As far as discovery goes, I ask this question every time someone tells me they've dropped cable. The primary thing keeping me from dropping cable and going full broadband is the randomness and potential for discovery in traditional programming. Deciding on shows and then directly accessing them feels isolated or closed to me. I agree with you. I would feel the same for books.


#21

Shegokigo

Shegokigo

Oh no doubt that I still prefer graphic novels on paper, but straight black and white print? I'd take digital on a big tablet any day.


#22

MindDetective

MindDetective

figmentPez said:
eBooks? Call me back when electronic paper has a color version that looks as good as as a modern comic book, and costs as much as B&W readers do now.
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It'll get here, probably in about 10 years. The faded color ones are just a start. More important than the color is the speed. The refresh rate on e-ink is awful. They are working on that too, though.


#23

BananaHands

BananaHands

Shegokigo said:
Oh no doubt that I still prefer graphic novels on paper, but straight black and white print? I'd take digital on a big tablet any day.
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Yeah, reading comics on a tablet just causes my eyes to hurt. And you can't beat that new comic smell.


#24

MindDetective

MindDetective

fade said:
I like digital for scientific articles. They were a pain to store and index before pdfs became so commonplace. But I prefer my books as books. Books in my office tend to serve as references, and I can access them more easily in paper form.

As far as discovery goes, I ask this question every time someone tells me they've dropped cable. The primary thing keeping me from dropping cable and going full broadband is the randomness and potential for discovery in traditional programming. Deciding on shows and then directly accessing them feels isolated or closed to me. I agree with you. I would feel the same for books.
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Actually, we did this with our recent move. With Netflix and Hulu (among other things) we find there are lots of new things to watch. It is more directed, I'll give you that. We do browse, though, and try out new things. But we tend to latch on to a new TV show and watch it obsessively rather than tune in every week. The current obsession: Mad Men.


#25



Biannoshufu

MindDetective said:
Actually, we did this with our recent move. With Netflix and Hulu (among other things) we find there are lots of new things to watch. It is more directed, I'll give you that. We do browse, though, and try out new things. But we tend to latch on to a new TV show and watch it obsessively rather than tune in every week. The current obsession: Mad Men.
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having cut cable years ago I just discovered breaking bad on Netflix. oh my gods yes.

sorry to derail.


#26

Shegokigo

Shegokigo

I honestly haven't had access to television stations in years. If there's a show that interests me, I'll check it out online then purchase the season on DVD/BluRay if I enjoyed it that much. I don't like not having the option to stop and continue at my leisure and while I know there's options like that these days for TV, I really don't see the need.


#27

MindDetective

MindDetective

AMC just rocks.


#28

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

I'm an avid reader. I can't remember the last time I bought a physical book that wasn't a graphic novel, but I've got a shitload of ebooks.


#29

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Like everyone else, I still prefer the feel of a book in my hands. I love seeing it on the shelf. I love the smell of both brand new books and used books (God, I love the smell of a used bookstore!). Plus, paper doesn't run out of batteries. :D

That said, I like the idea of things like the Kindle. I've played with them a bit in stores and think they have potential. If I were going on a long trip, where I'd go through a couple of books, I think bringing a Kindle instead might be more doable. I love my books and couldn't dare part with most, but I've done a lot of moving in the last few years. And they are a total pain to pack, unpack and move around.

Comics, I've yet to make the digital jump. I can't even download comics due to conscience and just not having the same focus or enjoyment. My biggest beef, honestly (which goes the same for novels), is that they keep charging the same price for digital as they do print. For example, I was all set and ready to buy the new Action Comics #1...until I saw it was $3.99. Screw that noise.

Literature aside, I think a lot of other mediums are moving to pure digital. Music is almost primarily digital, now. Movies are gradually moving to digital. Games are, as well. PC games, for example, are pretty much dealt digitally, now, thnaks to Steam, PSN and XBox Live. And I think in all those examples, it's fine because those mediums have always been viewed through a screen (or stereo/headphones for music). It's not hard to see that jump.

Books, though? Books still have that classic feel. I could see print production drop in favour of digital, but I don't see it going the way of the dodo.

Whew. I ranted a bit much on that. Sorry.


#30

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

[quote="ThatNickGuy] paper doesn't run out of batteries. :D

[/quote]

True, but with the wifi off, my kindle lasts about three weeks on a single charge.


#31

Shakey

Shakey

I only use my Kindle for books I can get for free through Project Gutenberg. I have a hard time buying an e-book for $12 when I can get a used hardcover for $4.


#32

Shannow

Shannow

Digital. I used to like having all my books, and kept them throguh the years...then I realized...the pain in the ass of having all that space taken. Moving them, finding places for them, etc.

Same with comics. So much easier having them all digitally in a small space. Also, I have no problem reading them on a laptop/pc screen. been doign that for almost a decade now. Conscience/legality aside, I find it so much better and convient. And shit, the best thing for that has been my smart phone. I can easily read the weeks releases, old archives, anything right there, and I have gigs of em on there, for easy read when I am in a line, on the shitter, on a trip, etc.

edit:

I've found that bottom-line, a book's importance to me is what's written within it. I find that I'm less concerned with how that information makes its way into my brain.
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This. This right fucking here.


#33

Denbrought

Denbrought

I'm mostly digital, because it's hard to get a book collection when all your belongings have to fit in a college-room-sized space. Overall ebooks have made my life much easier, but I don't actively campaign for turning printed books into a niche market.


#34



Chibibar

We have OVER 3 Billy bookshelves (with extended shelves to make it 6 rows) of manga/books PLUS another 5 bookshelves (Walmart type) of paperback books.

we have over 200 digital books (mostly free) and around 20 or so digital purchase (which I have the actual book also)

I think there are times where a good ol solid book is NICE to use and read when you are at home, but I do love to read ebook when I'm on the road.


#35

Shegokigo

Shegokigo

I'm seriously considering liquidating my manga collection but no idea what it'd even be worth at this point.

That said, I still bought the two newest Warcraft novels on Hardback. Mostly because I don't have a good tablet yet.


#36

Espy

Espy

Wow, great discussion so far.

Here's where I fall on the digital vs everything else battle: I only recently started reading ebooks on my iPod touch. And I love it. It's small and easy to hold (even in the bathtub, it's perfect and I can use my other hand for grabbing that bottle of beer that's a must for a good bath/reading time) and it's always in my pocket so when I have 5 minutes in line I can read. I will upgrade to either a Kindle or an iPad at some point but for now this is great. I love that I can stop cluttering up my space with books and just hold on to the nice hardbacks I want to keep around. I've boxed up 4 giant boxes of books to get rid of and I still have 3 bookshelves packed FYI, so I likes me my paper books.
But at some point it just felt right to get rid of some of them and start buying ebooks. I think many bookstores will survive B&N seems to be doing good and with the Nook they are on the right track to survive.

As far as TV goes? Between Hulu Plus, Netflix and other sources for digital content we have no cable or even basic TV. We are 100% non-traditional tv watchers now and I love it. It's cheaper and we have more control over stuff.


#37

HCGLNS

HCGLNS

"No! Don't eat Mommy's Kobo!" Is a pretty common phrase in my house. Eibooks don't stand up well to toddlers. My little girl barfed all over my hardcover book and it cleaned right up, Gramma's Kindle didn't fare as well.


#38

GasBandit

GasBandit

HCGLNS said:
"No! Don't eat Mommy's Kobo!" Is a pretty common phrase in my house. Eibooks don't stand up well to toddlers. My little girl barfed all over my hardcover book and it cleaned right up, Gramma's Kindle didn't fare as well.
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I have a production element here at work titled "non-stop toddler." Listening to it is the cutest, most effective form of birth control I can think of.

M_NonStopToddler_138Gb_60A.mp3

Attachments



#39

Dei

Dei

I was a "I like to hold real books" person, until I really started using a Kindle. Then I started remembering all the really annoying things about books that I didn't have when holding a Kindle. (Much less awkward to hold one handed, way easier to carry in my purse, since I read huge thick books, etc)


#40

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

I like a chunk of dead tree in my hands. With words in ink on it.

I don't think Borders went out of business because of digital books; I think they went out of business because their pricing couldn't compete with Amazon. I'd find stuff there and even with a 30% off coupon, Amazon still had it cheaper. Until the going out of business sale, at least.


#41

David

David

Agreeing with Espy on everything about the iPod touch. That plus, and I know this is bad of me, the fact that I now have the option to illegally download books rather than pay the cash for them at B&N or get on the months-long waitlist for any of the ones I really want from the library has gotten me to read far more than I would have been otherwise.

That said, I would like both ebooks and regular books to remain common options. I love the aesthetic value of being able to have shelves of books lining the walls. Plus there are just some hurdles to ebooks that I don't see being overcome even in 50 years. Namely:

-DRM. When I DO legitimately download a book that isn't in public domain, that book is locked to whatever service I purchase it on. If I lose or break my ipod, any book I've bought on iTunes so far is simply gone until I buy a new iPod, since they don't allow their books to be read on the computer yet. Sort of the same with Nooks and Kindles, only they do have software for everything (except for each other's devices). I don't like that I can't buy one ebook file and read it on whatever reader I damn well please.

-I don't like library downloads. I hate the Overdrive app my branch requires, which seems to crash/randomly close a lot. And I find it incredibly stupid that the digital files can only be checked out to one reader at a time and have to be waitlisted the same as a hard copy. That seems to me like it completely defeats the purpose of the library going digital. I know that's another licensing issue and not the library's fault, but it's still ridiculous.


#42

Chad Sexington

Chad Sexington

Another thing. Sharing. I love sharing books with people and talking about them later. I can't share an ereader (because there goes everything I'm currently reading, too), but I can totally give you my copy of The Man Who Was Thursday while I keep reading my things. With an ereader I have to encourage you to buy the book on your own, which you may not be able/willing to do. I think people are much more likely to read something someone physically hands them, partly just because it is there, and partly because the physical object represents something your friend wants to share with you and carries some emotional weight.

Unless you're a heartless monster.


#43

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

Chad Sexington said:
Another thing. Sharing. I love sharing books with people and talking about them later. I can't share an ereader (because there goes everything I'm currently reading, too), but I can totally give you my copy of The Man Who Was Thursday while I keep reading my things. With an ereader I have to encourage you to buy the book on your own, which you may not be able/willing to do. I think people are much more likely to read something someone physically hands them, partly just because it is there, and partly because the physical object represents something your friend wants to share with you and carries some emotional weight.

Unless you're a heartless monster.
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The kindle can do sharing to another persons kindle account


#44

Dei

Dei

Not for every book though. :(


#45

GasBandit

GasBandit

I have a kindle-to-PDF converter. NOW EVERYTHING IS SHARABLE.


#46

Shegokigo

Shegokigo

As for the DRM issue, there's a very simple fix: Buy it to support the writer, then "aquire" it on tech to use it no matter where you read it. I'm currently reading my Warcraft novel I bought on paperback that I "aquired" by other means to read on my work computer in PDF format.


#47



makare

well just remember that even if you bought it in one form that does not cover all other forms. It is still a violation of copyright.


#48

GasBandit

GasBandit

makare said:
well just remember that even if you bought it in one form that does not cover all other forms. It is still a violation of copyright.
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Some laws need to be broken, and that's one of them. (another is 55 mph highway speed limits)


#49

Espy

Espy

Makare bring up an interesting point: How do people feel about dling a digital version of a book you already own?

As to the pricing thing: HGGLN's, I wouldn't claim that digital took down borders, but it's clearly a part of it. It's a big part of why B&N has survived. I remember though, going into a Barnes and Noble, with my iPod, asking where the big pack of the Song of Ice and Fire was and how much and they said, right here, it's 39.99 or whatever. I pulled up amazon and they had it, brand new, no shipping (I'm prime) for 18.99. I told the guy no thanks and he looked at my iPod and said, "You are looking at Amazon huh?" with a defeated look. I said, "Yup." and walked out. I did not real bad either.


#50

Shegokigo

Shegokigo

Yep. Don't care. I helped the writer/game producer one way, and now I'm going to enjoy that purchase any way I like.


#51

GasBandit

GasBandit

I've long been a fan of sending musicians a few bucks in the mail while "pirating" their music. They make more money from me a dozen times over than if I'd actually bought it.


#52



makare

I have no problem downloading stuff I don't own so I certainly don't see a problem dling stuff I do. But it is the law.


#53

Espy

Espy

I don't want to get to lost in the copyright, etc, stuff but I guess I'm a lot less righteous about people downloading an ebook of something they spent money on already than just randomly dling music and stuff. Notably if the regular ebooks are filled with DRM. Either I own it or I don't.


#54

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

I love Neil Gaiman's take on the subject.



#55

Mathias

Mathias

I like the feel of a real book, but e-readers are much nicer. The argument for the tub is moot. If you drop a book into the tub, it gets ruined just as well.


#56

Espy

Espy

Mathias said:
I like the feel of a real book, but e-readers are much nicer. The argument for the tub is moot. If you drop a book into the tub, it gets ruined just as well.
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Well, a 20 dollar book is a lot more replaceable then a 600 dollar iPad or 200 dollar Kindle. Just saying.


#57



makare

I kind of like that my very favorite books are all a little fucked up from being in the tub. Wrinkled from having gotten wet. It's a very tactile reminder of how much I enjoy them.


#58

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

I really just don't want to make a huge investment on a Kindle or anything right now. I prefer hardbacks, but the price point is basically all that's keeping me from getting one.


#59

Shegokigo

Shegokigo

It's the law is a weak argument. It can be proven that most people break like 4-5 laws a day and not know it.

Anyway, the way I look at it, is much like ROM downloading issues. If you already own the game, there's no legal persecution for you having the ROM.


#60



makare

well ignorance of the law is no excuse you know.

(I was going to say that in latin but I am not that pompous.. right now.)


#61

Shegokigo

Shegokigo

You're right, but like many of the officers on the board will tell you: Not all enforcable laws are enforced/cared about. Why you even bothered to state that after you clearly said you already break it, is beyond me. We're aware it's the law, we still do our part to help the artist, we just don't give a shit about restrictions that alot of distributors want to put on everything. DRM, tech restrictions, etc.


#62



makare

Because if they actually do decide to enforce it the "but lots of people do it, uh i didnt know it was illegal uh it isn't a big deal" defense isn't going to help you.


#63

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

AshburnerX said:
I really just don't want to make a huge investment on a Kindle or anything right now. I prefer hardbacks, but the price point is basically all that's keeping me from getting one.
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I hate how if you get one Ereader, you're kind of stuck with it, or else have to buy them all again on the new one.


#64

Shegokigo

Shegokigo

makare said:
Because if they actually do decide to enforce it the "but lots of people do it, uh i didnt know it was illegal uh it isn't a big deal" defense isn't going to help you.
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Like the millions of people they were going to crack down on for mp3/movie pirating right?

They'll go after the system giving out the illegal material, not the downloader. The few they ever did go after, was a scare tactic that never proceeded past those people. So yeah, it doesn't matter and to bring it up was pointless.

@Escu: That's exactly what I mean about "aquiring" a copy after fully purchasing it. So you don't have to worry about restrictions like that.


#65



makare

Damn it I forgot that on this forum we only talk about serious issues and things of dire importance.
My bad.


#66

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

As far as legal arguments go, though, I've wondered something. Suppose someone used the arugment of "I've already bought this several times already! I went to concerts/theatre. I bought it on tape and later again on CD/DVD. You've already got more than enough of my money."

It wouldn't work so well for pirates who don't pay money for anything at all, but I'm thinking more for myself, where the vast majority of digital movies I have are ones that I've owned or paid for in different mediums through my life. Of course, providing proof that I've seen most of the Nightmare on Elm St. movies in theatre, along with owning them on VHS and DVD at one time, would be tough.


#67



makare

That was my point as illogical as it may seem no matter how many times you have paid for it and in what forms, you are still not entitled to it in other forms. Personally I think this will change in the near future because the cost and trouble of dealing with violators is too much. Also it is just another example of punishing the people who actually do the right thing. You bought the product why not get to use it, for yourself, as you see fit?


#68

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Exactly. Though, admittedly, I don't own any copies of, say, Nightmare on Elm St. anymore. That probably breaks my argument a bit. I don't need the bells and whistles of special features, just the movie. And I've paid for that multiple times, both from buying copies of it in different forms, as well as renting the hell out of them multiple times throughout grade school. To say that I owe them more money is ridiculous.

If it's a brand new movie that I didn't see in theatres, didn't buy or didn't rent? Sure, then they're entitled.


#69

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

I pirated the harry potter series in pdf because (at the time) Rowling refused to allow digital distribution.


#70

Shegokigo

Shegokigo

makare said:
Damn it I forgot that on this forum we only talk about serious issues and things of dire importance.
My bad.
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Now I was going to say something but I'm not because I don't feel like being a bitch..... right now.


#71

strawman

strawman

makare said:
no matter how many times you have paid for it and in what forms, you are still not entitled to it in other forms
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That's not strictly true. There is a gray area where you are allowed to transform the work into a format you can consume. For instance, the blind use machines that turn books into spoken audio, and even if the audio book exists, they are still allowed to do this transformation. Because of this, there is a gray area where you might be allowed to purchase a work, then obtain, through a third party, a pre-transformed version of the same work, especially in cases where you cannot transform it yourself without great expense, or cases where you cannot consume the original form.

This is one of the reasons those who created DVD cracking programs were not always successfully prosecuted - there were some computer systems that were not able to play DVDs and there was no commercial, licensed software available for these computers, even though the computers had DVD drives. Legally a user could use the software on their computer to consume the DVD contents without having to purchase new equipment (DVD player and TV).

In general, you are correct, but there are situations where your statement is not true, and there's still a rather large gray area between the rights of the owner versus the rights of the consumer.


#72



makare

but is having a machine read a book really another form of the book or just another way of accessing the original book?


#73

strawman

strawman

makare said:
but is having a machine read a book really another form of the book or just another way of accessing the original book?
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An argument for the ages, to be sure.

In many cases, one is allowed to make and keep "backup" copies of copyrighted materials. People don't think about it for books, because they aren't easy to copy, but legally one could put each page of their book on a copy machine and store the result (or original) in a secure location while using the original (or copy) for the intended use.

The arguments, however, usually revolve around distribution. It's not making a personal copy that is the problem - it's giving that copy away.

In other words, if I buy a book, then obtain a digital copy from another source, I haven't done anything illegal. The source I got the digital copy from, however, may have violated copyright.

...but I'm getting off track here.

I've recently rid myself of a few shelf fulls of books - mostly technical - and pay a monthly fee to safari books online for unlimited access to their digital copies of their technical books. I still print a few things out, but between a multi-monitor setup, and the iPad, I am coming towards going completely digital.

Even with three 24" monitors and two 17" monitors and the iPad at my workstation, though, I still don't have enough space to work as fast as I prefer, so I still print some things out - usually only a dozen or so pages at a time though. I prefer that to having the whole 400 page book or manual in front of me though - too much desk space, not easy to move around, and can't look at 5 different sections of the book at once. Gimme a pdf and I can see as much or as little of it as I want at any given time.

I've recently read a few books on the iPad (Old Man's War pdf is free online, and it's a good scifi book) and I really enjoy it. The iPad is heavier than a cheap paperback, but that's the only downside. The upsides are being able to use the iPad for a variety of things when I'm not reading and not having to lug the book around with me (which means I can read it in small bites anywhere, such as the line in the grocery store). I always have the iPad with me.

So while I really enjoy the feel of a paper book in hand, I think I'd rather have it all digitally now.


#74



makare

Since we are talking about this I thought it would be a good spot to mention one of the funny things from my Intellectual Property class this semester.
The prof wanted us to get this book called the pirates dilemma. He said it is downloadable and you can pay whatever you want for it, even 0. So we all got the book and went to class. Then he asked what we paid. Most people paid 0 a few paid 5 (the actual asking price) some paid 1 and some paid 3. Also in our class a chick paid for it and he said in 4 semesters of teaching the class she was the first woman to pay for it. I thought that was interesting. Although I still thought why pay for something you are allowed to get for free but everyone has their own feelings about that kind of thing.


#75



rabbitgod

As far as periodicals go, I prefer digital. I would pay so much money to get my National Geographic as a digital only version. I just can't justify the waste of production on a periodical I might read cover to cover.

I'm not sure about digital books. I haven't really tried digital versions. I think I might be into it.


#76



Biannoshufu

I dislike it when people say "acquire" when the fact is unless it was given as a gift by the creator, it was stolen. I don't particularly care if people do it, I just wish they wouldn't be dishonest about it. It's the same sort of white-wash speech politicians used to candy up a shitty policy that screws others over.


#77

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Ninja'd ya a page ago, Tinster.


#78

Allen who is Quiet

Allen who is Quiet

Nice repost, Tin.


#79

Allen who is Quiet

Allen who is Quiet

Well Tin, I hope you've learned a valuable lesson. It's not okay to be unoriginal over the internet.


#80

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Tin, I am disappoint.


#81

Shegokigo

Shegokigo

Biannoshufu said:
I dislike it when people say "acquire" when the fact is unless it was given as a gift by the creator, it was stolen. I don't particularly care if people do it, I just wish they wouldn't be dishonest about it. It's the same sort of white-wash speech politicians used to candy up a shitty policy that screws others over.
Click to expand...
Yeah well when you've had an investigation of enforcement agencies tap you, you tend to be a bit more careful with your words.


#82

Covar

Covar

stienman said:
An argument for the ages, to be sure.

In many cases, one is allowed to make and keep "backup" copies of copyrighted materials. People don't think about it for books, because they aren't easy to copy, but legally one could put each page of their book on a copy machine and store the result (or original) in a secure location while using the original (or copy) for the intended use.

The arguments, however, usually revolve around distribution. It's not making a personal copy that is the problem - it's giving that copy away.

In other words, if I buy a book, then obtain a digital copy from another source, I haven't done anything illegal. The source I got the digital copy from, however, may have violated copyright.

...but I'm getting off track here.

I've recently rid myself of a few shelf fulls of books - mostly technical - and pay a monthly fee to safari books online for unlimited access to their digital copies of their technical books. I still print a few things out, but between a multi-monitor setup, and the iPad, I am coming towards going completely digital.

Even with three 24" monitors and two 17" monitors and the iPad at my workstation, though, I still don't have enough space to work as fast as I prefer, so I still print some things out - usually only a dozen or so pages at a time though. I prefer that to having the whole 400 page book or manual in front of me though - too much desk space, not easy to move around, and can't look at 5 different sections of the book at once. Gimme a pdf and I can see as much or as little of it as I want at any given time.

I've recently read a few books on the iPad (Old Man's War pdf is free online, and it's a good scifi book) and I really enjoy it. The iPad is heavier than a cheap paperback, but that's the only downside. The upsides are being able to use the iPad for a variety of things when I'm not reading and not having to lug the book around with me (which means I can read it in small bites anywhere, such as the line in the grocery store). I always have the iPad with me.

So while I really enjoy the feel of a paper book in hand, I think I'd rather have it all digitally now.
Click to expand...
I'm kind of surprised by that. My technical books are still the only things I have to have in paper. I've just found it easier to search through an actual book rather than deal with PDFs and the like.

That said I love my Kindle for reading fiction. When I don't need to go through a book like it's a chose your own adventure that device is divine. Especially since it syncs to my phone and iPad.

I don't read magazines so I couldn't care less about them. I enjoy supporting my LCS, and collecting comics, so I stick to buying the print.


#83

Shegokigo

Shegokigo

That's pretty interesting actually. Imagine a Choose Your Own Adventure book, with clickable links at the bottom of every page, so that it took you directly to the page you chose? That'd be fantastic.


#84

SpecialKO

SpecialKO

If Amazon (or B&N or Apple for that matter) offered a way to trade-in physical copies for ebook copies for free (or even just severely discounted), they'd have me as a customer for life.

But there's no effin' way I'm paying full price, even ebook price, to re-own something.


#85

Shegokigo

Shegokigo

So you'd keep VHS tapes over DVD/BluRay copies?


#86

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

Shegokigo said:
So you'd keep VHS tapes over DVD/BluRay copies?
Click to expand...
Addendum: you don't play nintendo games?

*goes back to playing starfox 64 3D


#87



makare

That doesn't seem like an accurate comparison. VHS to dvd is often a big boost in sound and audio quality. A physical book is on par with the electronic to most people. Not to me though Kindle is nowhere near as nice as a physical book as far as page quality goes and pdfs are punishment from the gods.


#88

Covar

Covar

One thing I love about my Kindle that I forgot to mention. The built in dictionary. Being able to look up a word without even having to leave the page is just awesome.


#89



makare

I would love to have my text books on kindle. Those things weigh a ton and anything I lost in the format change would be worth not having to carry them around.


#90

fade

fade

Covar said:
One thing I love about my Kindle that I forgot to mention. The built in dictionary. Being able to look up a word without even having to leave the page is just awesome.
Click to expand...
Macs have been able to do since like 1989. :)

(Derail: Every time the media or users rave about some "new" feature in their product that Apple implemented two decades ago, a Macalope gets its wings.)

Just kidding, just kidding.


#91

Covar

Covar

Yes, but it's a new feature for my books. :p


#92

Shegokigo

Shegokigo

Ravenpoe said:
Addendum: you don't play nintendo games?

*goes back to playing starfox 64 3D
Click to expand...
I don't play them on a NES, that's for sure.

makare said:
That doesn't seem like an accurate comparison. VHS to dvd is often a big boost in sound and audio quality. A physical book is on par with the electronic to most people. Not to me though Kindle is nowhere near as nice as a physical book as far as page quality goes and pdfs are punishment from the gods.
Click to expand...
I wasn't making a comparison to quality, I was making a comparison to repurchasing something you already own in a different medium.


#93



makare

My point was the why you might repurchase are different. There is more reason to be willing to repurchase dvds than ebooks.


#94

Denbrought

Denbrought

Shegokigo said:
That's pretty interesting actually. Imagine a Choose Your Own Adventure book, with clickable links at the bottom of every page, so that it took you directly to the page you chose? That'd be fantastic.
Click to expand...
This is a very fun CYOA series, available free and very fun. I recommend it: Project Aon - Lone Wolf


#95

Espy

Espy

Man... I miss choose your own adventure books.


#96

fade

fade

I like to think of tvtropes.org as the modern choose-your-own-adventure.

If you do it on kindle, how do you put all your fingers in the pages to backtrack your choices when you die?


#97



makare

I had a Supergirl choose your own adventure but that
is the only one ive seen


#98

@Li3n

@Li3n

makare said:
but is having a machine read a book really another form of the book or just another way of accessing the original book?
Click to expand...
Doesn't really matter, as according to most copyright you're not buying the physical writing inside the book, but the right to read the work...

But don't worry, in 10 more year i'm sure they'll manage to make it so that you'll only be allowed to read something once with each purchase.
Added at: 21:06
Shegokigo said:
So you'd keep VHS tapes over DVD/BluRay copies?
Click to expand...
Ahem: https://www.halforums.com/threads/noooooooo-george-lucas-is-at-it-again.26159/page-4


#99

Shegokigo

Shegokigo

Yeah, you'll notice I refused to purchase the new copies because of the copious amounts of changes. Therefore it's not the original work, therefore not a valid counter-argument. Thanks for trying though.


#100

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

There is also precedent for owning the original copies of books, that have been unchanged by dozens of editors over the years to make the titles more acceptable and palatable to modern readers. Most people prefer to have the original story and only want updated copies if said copies have additional content, not content removed.


#101



Biannoshufu

Shegokigo said:
Yeah well when you've had an investigation of enforcement agencies tap you, you tend to be a bit more careful with your words.
Click to expand...
Suddenly you're making moral justifications for your behavior now? And, totally in the tinfoil hat section I'm guessing that if your ass is tapped by los federales on the net they probably have a good idea of what's on your HD.


#102

Shegokigo

Shegokigo

I'm just not going to say anymore, for my own good.


#103

North_Ranger

North_Ranger

I was going to come in and offer a perhaps old-fashioned preference for books over digital, but I think I'll just pull up a chair and watch the ensuing lesbian fight.

Now if only we could have some mud in here... :p


#104

GasBandit

GasBandit

I've stolen books. Both E- and paper. I have no regrets. Just puttin' that out there.


#105



makare

you badass


#106

Espy

Espy

GasBandit said:
I've stolen books. Both E- and paper. I have no regrets. Just puttin' that out there.
Click to expand...
internet-pirate-o.png


#107



Biannoshufu

GasBandit said:
I've stolen books. Both E- and paper. I have no regrets. Just puttin' that out there.
Click to expand...
I've always appreciated your honesty about things. Say what they may, you're a class act.


#108

GasBandit

GasBandit

Espy said:
View attachment 2791
Click to expand...
that image is


And it was really hard to internet pirate that paperback, but through strength and determination...


#109

@Li3n

@Li3n

Shegokigo said:
Yeah, you'll notice I refused to purchase the new copies because of the copious amounts of changes. Therefore it's not the original work, therefore not a valid counter-argument. Thanks for trying though.
Click to expand...
No see, i was also including this:

Shegokigo said:
I wasn't making a comparison to quality, I was making a comparison to repurchasing something you already own in a different medium.
Click to expand...
Well if there's nothing new and no quality increase then what is the point of buying it again?


#110



makare

GasBandit said:
that image is


And it was really hard to internet pirate that paperback, but through strength and determination...
Click to expand...
steal the e-book-print-instant paperback- profit!


#111

Shegokigo

Shegokigo

@Li3n said:
Well if there's nothing new and no quality increase then what is the point of buying it again?
Click to expand...
That's what I just said. There is no point and I actively find ways of getting the digital version of books I already own on paper.


#112

@Li3n

@Li3n

Shegokigo said:
That's what I just said. There is no point and I actively find ways of getting the digital version of books I already own on paper.
Click to expand...
Sorry, it really didn't sound like it:

Shegokigo said:
So you'd keep VHS tapes over DVD/BluRay copies?
Click to expand...
Honest mistake.


#113

Shegokigo

Shegokigo

Not sure where the confusion comes from, DVD/Bluray are superior formats to the VHS in terms of quality.

A digital book is not an enhancement of quality so therefore I don't see the point in repurchasing.


#114

fade

fade

Yeah, grandpa :) , newsgroups got popular again a while ago. Mostly for pirating, but that's nothing new.


#115

@Li3n

@Li3n

Tinwhistler said:
It kind of sucks that someone is taking advantage of Smashwords to pirate books--the book is a Smashwords edition, and Smashwords books come with no copy protection.
Click to expand...
As opposed to the people posting books that had DRM?!


#116

GasBandit

GasBandit

@Li3n said:
As opposed to the people posting books that had DRM?!
Click to expand...
More like as opposed to people who cracked DRM, or sourced the material from DRM-protected files. To be sourced from a company that makes part of its image to be "trusting" the users and going DRM-free is a kick in the teeth, and a detriment to the natural progress of media because it reinforces Big Media's assertion that DRM is necessary. It's like that torrent that has gog.com's entire inventory, custom gog.com installers and all. Really, man? 5 bucks is too much for an old game you already know you love, so you gotta pirate EVERY game from this DRM-free site? Way to prove Sony/et al right.


#117



Soliloquy

Yeah, doing that kind of thing pretty much destroys any claims to the moral high ground that pirates have, and just makes it a basic case of "I don't want to pay you for your stuff."


#118

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

Tinwhistler said:
Necro time!

It's interesting to come back and revisit this topic, 5 months later.

My step-father called me up the other day and said "You must have 'made it'...they're pirating your book on the newsgroups." I cracked a smile and instantly thought of this old thread. For you youngsters to the Internet, newsgroups are an old message-board like system that have fallen out of mainstream use--but they still exist, and people evidently still use them to pirate stuff. I'd forgotten all about them until my step-dad mentioned them.

It kind of sucks that someone is taking advantage of Smashwords to pirate books--the book is a Smashwords edition, and Smashwords books come with no copy protection. But I don't really mind my book being out there. The kind of folks that trawl the binaries newsgroups looking for 'warez' (as pirated stuff was known back in the day) aren't the kind of folks I could expect to buy my book anyway. But hopefully, some of them will like it and tell their friends about it.
Click to expand...
I mentioned in a rant thread that someone's pirating mine--which DOES have DRM protection. Bleh. It seems not to matter; people just want stuff.

Maybe I'll try no DRM for the next one and see if I get more sales (sneak preview: I doubt it).


#119

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

Tinwhistler said:
I don't read the rants thread that much these days. I don't think there's any getting away from getting pirated.
Click to expand...
I'm guessing most didn't see; I was just mentioning so I didn't sound like a broken record.

And you're right; it's just one of those things that will happen these days. It can be exposure though, as you said. Unfortunately, there's no way to track that either.


#120

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

The sad thing is, if the pirates want it, they'll figure a way to get it.


#121

GasBandit

GasBandit

ThatNickGuy said:
The sad thing is, if the pirates want it, they'll figure a way to get it.
Click to expand...
That's the reality of the situation - nontangible goods (IE, media that can be digitized) are impossible to really own and sell in the same manner as tangible goods - like, say, sporting equipment or automobiles. The times, they change... and business has to change with it.


#122

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

I'm reminded (and I may have said this before; possibly in this thread) of when the Xbox 360 was first announced. I'm going purely on memory here, so don't quote me. I recall how someone at Microsoft proclaimed that the 360 was un-hackable. I had to snicker because you knew, you just knew, that there were guys out there who, immediately upon hearing that, began rubbing their hands in anticipation. They wanted to crack that bitch and prove the guy wrong.


#123

@Li3n

@Li3n

GasBandit said:
More like as opposed to people who cracked DRM, or sourced the material from DRM-protected files. To be sourced from a company that makes part of its image to be "trusting" the users and going DRM-free is a kick in the teeth, and a detriment to the natural progress of media because it reinforces Big Media's assertion that DRM is necessary. It's like that torrent that has gog.com's entire inventory, custom gog.com installers and all. Really, man? 5 bucks is too much for an old game you already know you love, so you gotta pirate EVERY game from this DRM-free site? Way to prove Sony/et al right.
Click to expand...
So Sony is right in using DRM that doesn't actually work because people pirate everything?


Soliloquy said:
Yeah, doing that kind of thing pretty much destroys any claims to the moral high ground that pirates have, and just makes it a basic case of "I don't want to pay you for your stuff."
Click to expand...
By moral high ground you mean something like "sticking it to the man" i take it...


#124

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

Back on-topic, because now I own a Kindle and have read a book on it, so I can contribute:

I actually do like reading on it, but some kinks need to be worked out. Not on the Kindle itself exactly, but on who formats eBooks. There was a part in the book I just read that had some extra formatting due to a song being sung. For the rest of the chapter, the font size was messed up. I know you can easily change that, but it was annoying to switch, then switch back, and it wasn't exactly the same size as earlier. Then I got to another book, same series, and the font size changed again. Couldn't get it exactly right either, so I just had to get used to it.

It does feel better closing and finishing a book, but since my Kindle cover is open-flap like a book, I just close that.

It's nice being able to carry hundreds of pages of folklore reference around in a tiny little tablet.

I still love my books, but I can see it getting difficult to jump back and forth, aside from with comics. Definitely sticking with paper on those.


#125



Soliloquy

@Li3n said:
So Sony is right in using DRM that doesn't actually work because people pirate everything?
Click to expand...
The funny thing is, Sony doesn't actually have to be right. They just have to be able to seem right in the average person's eyes -- and a company that big can afford a lot of PR representatives who will latch onto things like the rampant piracy of DRM-free stuff to justify the inclusion of DRM in their games, even if it doesn't actually stop anything.

So long as they can seem right, they'll be able to do whatever they want without many repercussions.

@Li3n said:
By moral high ground you mean something like "sticking it to the man" i take it...
Click to expand...
Well, that's the justification I see all the time, at least.


#126

GasBandit

GasBandit

@Li3n said:
So Sony is right in using DRM that doesn't actually work because people pirate everything?
Click to expand...
No, but the piracy of DRM-free material seems at first glance to support such an assertion, which is dangerous because someone like, say, a FEDERAL JUDGE, might not go deeper than first glance.


#127

@Li3n

@Li3n

Soliloquy said:
Well, that's the justification I see all the time, at least.
Click to expand...
But going by that the use of DRM or not wouldn't really matter, as The Man would be bad anyway for the reasons that make it The Man...

And you're also assuming that it's the same people that use that justification instead of the guys that are philosophically pirates (information should be free etc.)

GasBandit said:
No, but the piracy of DRM-free material seems at first glance to support such an assertion, which is dangerous because someone like, say, a FEDERAL JUDGE, might not go deeper than first glance.
Click to expand...
I for one would expect a Judge to be able to tell that whether or not a work had DRM in no way influences the infringement of copyright... if he/she can't then, well, the broken justice system is more of a concern imo.


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