Gas Bandit's Political Thread III

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Obama recently announced education reform. A centerpiece of his plan was introducing merit pay (better teachers get paid more than their counterparts). As I understand it teachers don't compete with each other, but rather against standards for performance. If you surpass those expectations, you get more money. Teachers unions have resisted this for years, and some of my coworkers griped about it.

Well, maybe it's because I'm new and cocky, but I thought it was a great idea. If I'm a good teacher, and I think I will be (I'm still new and all), I've got nothing to fear.

So hopefully that solution to my gripe about my profession is forthcoming.
 
A Troll said:
Obama recently announced education reform. A centerpiece of his plan was introducing merit pay (better teachers get paid more than their counterparts). As I understand it teachers don't compete with each other, but rather against standards for performance. If you surpass those expectations, you get more money. Teachers unions have resisted this for years, and some of my coworkers griped about it.

Well, maybe it's because I'm new and cocky, but I thought it was a great idea. If I'm a good teacher, and I think I will be (I'm still new and all), I've got nothing to fear.

So hopefully that solution to my gripe about my profession is forthcoming.
Interesting concept, though I wonder how teachers who run remedial classes or classes for mentally disabled will be measured in this sort of system.

I always felt that the reason private schools were expected to outperform public schools wasn't due to better teaching styles, but greater involvement of the students parents.
 
A Troll said:
Obama recently announced education reform. A centerpiece of his plan was introducing merit pay (better teachers get paid more than their counterparts). As I understand it teachers don't compete with each other, but rather against standards for performance. If you surpass those expectations, you get more money. Teachers unions have resisted this for years, and some of my coworkers griped about it.

Well, maybe it's because I'm new and cocky, but I thought it was a great idea. If I'm a good teacher, and I think I will be (I'm still new and all), I've got nothing to fear.

So hopefully that solution to my gripe about my profession is forthcoming.
Teachers have become very used to the pecking order - you got paid based on how long you've been teaching, and nothing else.

So of course the older generation is going to complain. Usurpers! Upstarts! You kids didn't have to go through 10 years of an age group you didn't really want to teach just to make a living wage and now you can come out of college and make what I'm making?

Honestly, though, they've failed to fix the problem these long years when they had ample opportunity to look at their jobs, take a risk, and reform their own jobs. The gov't is going to continue to jump in and mess with them if they don't figure it out themselves.

I don't think merit pay will really come to pass though. What Obama is promising is MORE pay to teachers, and ultimately the unions will decide on what counts as "merit" and we'll get the same old, same old. Until they cut the fat, there's not going to be any real change. And you are probably well aware of how hard it is for a school to get rid of a bad teacher.

The unions are good for a lot, but in this case they are working at cross-purposes to teaching performance. They force schools to reward bad teaching. Further, if teachers ever became a white collar, well paid job (as it should be) there wouldn't be much use for the unions - so they have to play their hand just right to keep the balance. If the unions do their job too well then they put themselves out of business.

-Adam
 
stienman said:
And you are probably well aware of how hard it is for a school to get rid of a bad teacher.

-Adam


I agree with pretty much everything you said. The only exception would be that I'm more hopeful that merit pay will actually be implemented.
 
Krisken said:
A Troll said:
Obama recently announced education reform. A centerpiece of his plan was introducing merit pay (better teachers get paid more than their counterparts).
Interesting concept, though I wonder how teachers who run remedial classes or classes for mentally disabled will be measured in this sort of system.

I always felt that the reason private schools were expected to outperform public schools wasn't due to better teaching styles, but greater involvement of the students parents.
The Diane Rehm show today was about this:
http://wamu.org/programs/dr/09/03/11.php#25485

Obama hasn't spelled out what merit could or should mean, but he did say specifically that "no child left behind" with specific cut off scores that must be met wasn't going to work, implying that merit would be based on the particular situations.

But that's what will be hashed out over time. One of the commentators brought up national certification by a teaching board - it already exits, and it's very comprehensive, and not many teachers bother with it. But doing merit pay based on continuing improvement and education appears to be one possible method.

Others brought up student testing - rather than measuring students against a fixed standard based on age, measure their improvement over the year. If they improve more than one year's worth of education, then the teacher is doing a better job than the teacher whose students improve less than one year's worth. Still involves testing, and teaching to the tests isn't a great plan.

-Adam
 
I

Iaculus

I'd be cautious. Though the cases are not identical, government-issued targets for NHS doctors over here went very, very badly wrong. Might want to run the systems up against each other and see if there's any overlap that might cause problems.
 
Looking at improvements over standardized tests are an interesting idea. However any kind of Merit System not based on some kind of standardized test is complete Hogwash. Hell part of the reason education is in the mess it is is because teachers realized they could just pass students and the morons who work in education administration would be kept happy and none the wiser.

also:
On average teachers should be paid more. District administrators should be paid less. That's an ideal example of an unfair wage disparity. So, in order to alleviate situations like that, I would like more government involvement in leveling the playing field.
you point to a problem created by government and say you want more government involvement for those situations?
 
Covar said:
On average teachers should be paid more. District administrators should be paid less. That's an ideal example of an unfair wage disparity. So, in order to alleviate situations like that, I would like more government involvement in leveling the playing field.
you point to a problem created by government and say you want more government involvement for those situations?
I was going to respond, but I can already tell where you're going with this. You've got the hardcore libertatarian/small gov republican thing going on, and we're not going to see eye to eye on anything related to politics. Best to just leave it.
 
Covar said:
Looking at improvements over standardized tests are an interesting idea. However any kind of Merit System not based on some kind of standardized test is complete Hogwash. * part of the reason education is in the mess it is is because teachers realized they could just pass students and the morons who work in education administration would be kept happy and none the wiser.
Yeah, except standardized testing creates a situation where kids who don't make the grade get shuffled between schools to not be counted as their students, kids who quit not counting for the drop out rate, and time that should be spent teaching kids to think is instead spent teaching them to pass the tests.
 
M

makare

Covar said:
Looking at improvements over standardized tests are an interesting idea. However any kind of Merit System not based on some kind of standardized test is complete Hogwash. Hell part of the reason education is in the mess it is is because teachers realized they could just pass students and the morons who work in education administration would be kept happy and none the wiser.
what's your solution then? hold back every kid that doesn't quite make it? Out of a class of twenty say three kids aren't ready to go on so the next years class becomes a class of 23, and the next class a class of 24. Who is going to step in and teach the extra kids? I am using small numbers here to show my point, which is, it is easy to say you shouldn't pass those kids on in a perfect world you wouldn't have to. But in this world class size and limited resources are a problem.

I don't want anyone to be passed up and out without learning but the way the school's are set up now is like a factory. and on the factory line you don't fix defective product you throw it out because otherwise you cause a back up that breaks down the whole factory. But people don't want to put money in the schools because the schools are "broken" well they can't be fixed without resources. so the kids in need get tossed out and the teachers get blamed. That makes a whole lot of sense.
 
makare1 said:
what's your solution then? hold back every kid that doesn't quite make it?
Involve the parents. Investigate and find out why a child isn't progressing. If the parents refuse to get involved, have social services investigate as the parents aren't doing a good enough job.

What scares me about Obama's call for action is that he invoked "Longer school days, and longer school years" - basically institutionalizing more and more the basic functions of parents.

If every parent were as involved in their kids education as they ought to be, the kids would be learning at a phenomenal rate and we wouldn't even have these issues.

You can't blame lack of parental involvement on poor economic status either - there are programs in very low income cities that teach parents how to parent even with limited time and resources, and they are working - their children are doing as well as those parents with higher incomes and even those families where one parent stays home.

And yes, if a kid doesn't make it, HOLD THEM BACK. They will do worse in the next grade if they don't grasp the concepts in the current grade. No exceptions. You do a disservice to the kid and society if you pass them up the chain without meeting their needs.

-Adam
 
M

makare

stienman said:
makare1 said:
what's your solution then? hold back every kid that doesn't quite make it?
Involve the parents. Investigate and find out why a child isn't progressing. If the parents refuse to get involved, have social services investigate as the parents aren't doing a good enough job.

What scares me about Obama's call for action is that he invoked "Longer school days, and longer school years" - basically institutionalizing more and more the basic functions of parents.

If every parent were as involved in their kids education as they ought to be, the kids would be learning at a phenomenal rate and we wouldn't even have these issues.

You can't blame lack of parental involvement on poor economic status either - there are programs in very low income cities that teach parents how to parent even with limited time and resources, and they are working - their children are doing as well as those parents with higher incomes and even those families where one parent stays home.

And yes, if a kid doesn't make it, HOLD THEM BACK. They will do worse in the next grade if they don't grasp the concepts in the current grade. No exceptions. You do a disservice to the kid and society if you pass them up the chain without meeting their needs.

-Adam

Where do you get the resources to teach all these parents? and again to teach all the held back kids? I think you are thinking of that perfect world that doesn't exist.
 
makare1 said:
stienman said:
makare1 said:
what's your solution then? hold back every kid that doesn't quite make it?
Involve the parents. Investigate and find out why a child isn't progressing. If the parents refuse to get involved, have social services investigate as the parents aren't doing a good enough job.

What scares me about Obama's call for action is that he invoked "Longer school days, and longer school years" - basically institutionalizing more and more the basic functions of parents.

If every parent were as involved in their kids education as they ought to be, the kids would be learning at a phenomenal rate and we wouldn't even have these issues.

You can't blame lack of parental involvement on poor economic status either - there are programs in very low income cities that teach parents how to parent even with limited time and resources, and they are working - their children are doing as well as those parents with higher incomes and even those families where one parent stays home.

And yes, if a kid doesn't make it, HOLD THEM BACK. They will do worse in the next grade if they don't grasp the concepts in the current grade. No exceptions. You do a disservice to the kid and society if you pass them up the chain without meeting their needs.

-Adam

Where do you get the resources to teach all these parents? and again to teach all the held back kids? I think you are thinking of that perfect world that doesn't exist.
Ah, you want to pretend that because we can't do it right now, we shouldn't even try? If you implement a little bit of the "ideal world" every day, then eventually you get there. Yeah, it's a mountain and you've only got a spoon, but you aren't going anywhere if you decide that it's not worth it to start digging.

-Adam
 
makare1 said:
Covar said:
Looking at improvements over standardized tests are an interesting idea. However any kind of Merit System not based on some kind of standardized test is complete Hogwash. * part of the reason education is in the mess it is is because teachers realized they could just pass students and the morons who work in education administration would be kept happy and none the wiser.
what's your solution then?
See bolded. It is an interesting idea that would seem to eliminate the problem that just looking at pass fail numbers of standardized tests would have each year, and hopefully provide a more objective view of a teacher's ability.

And yes. If a student can't pass a class he deserves to fail, take it again, and be held back if need be. If you can't see why allowing kids into HS without the basic ability to read, and perform simple math is not a good thing then I really must question how you managed to get through school.
 
M

makare

stienman said:
makare1 said:
stienman said:
makare1 said:
what's your solution then? hold back every kid that doesn't quite make it?
Involve the parents. Investigate and find out why a child isn't progressing. If the parents refuse to get involved, have social services investigate as the parents aren't doing a good enough job.

What scares me about Obama's call for action is that he invoked "Longer school days, and longer school years" - basically institutionalizing more and more the basic functions of parents.

If every parent were as involved in their kids education as they ought to be, the kids would be learning at a phenomenal rate and we wouldn't even have these issues.

You can't blame lack of parental involvement on poor economic status either - there are programs in very low income cities that teach parents how to parent even with limited time and resources, and they are working - their children are doing as well as those parents with higher incomes and even those families where one parent stays home.

And yes, if a kid doesn't make it, HOLD THEM BACK. They will do worse in the next grade if they don't grasp the concepts in the current grade. No exceptions. You do a disservice to the kid and society if you pass them up the chain without meeting their needs.

-Adam

Where do you get the resources to teach all these parents? and again to teach all the held back kids? I think you are thinking of that perfect world that doesn't exist.
Ah, you want to pretend that because we can't do it right now, we shouldn't even try? If you implement a little bit of the "ideal world" every day, then eventually you get there. Yeah, it's a mountain and you've only got a spoon, but you aren't going anywhere if you decide that it's not worth it to start digging.

-Adam
You didn't offer a solution that works that way. Sure social services should look into kids that aren't learning, well in my state there is no extra funding for that, social services is barely able to handle actual abuse and neglect cases. Teach the parents! There is no money for that either. It is easy to say we can do it if we try! and then not come up with any practical way to do it.

Covar said:
makare1 said:
Covar said:
Looking at improvements over standardized tests are an interesting idea. However any kind of Merit System not based on some kind of standardized test is complete Hogwash. * part of the reason education is in the mess it is is because teachers realized they could just pass students and the morons who work in education administration would be kept happy and none the wiser.
what's your solution then?
See bolded. It is an interesting idea that would seem to eliminate the problem that just looking at pass fail numbers of standardized tests would have each year, and hopefully provide a more objective view of a teacher's ability.

And yes. If a student can't pass a class he deserves to fail, take it again, and be held back if need be. If you can't see why allowing kids into HS without the basic ability to read, and perform simple math is not a good thing then I really must question how you managed to get through school.
Wow reading fail, I did say it was a bad thing. I also said that crowded classrooms and no resources is a bad thing. We have to fix the resource problem before we can deal with extra students.

Never mind, just go back to bitching and not offering any kind of feasible solution to the actual problem.
 
makare1 said:
We have to fix the resource problem before we can deal with extra students.
Then the school has to stop accepting new students.

Yes, there are resource issues, and yes compromises have to be made. But if it doesn't work, then the school is failing, and should be handed over to an organization that can make it work with the resources at hand.

Yes, there are bad situations, and you are discussing the extreme cases, but in most schools there are enough resources that keeping students back isn't going to end up in an infinitely growing class size - it will eventually even out to a static state the represents the area's population and ability.

So yes, classes might grow to 33, 35, 38, but they won't keep growing - there's a limit to this integral.

-Adam
 
stienman said:
makare1 said:
We have to fix the resource problem before we can deal with extra students.
Then the school has to stop accepting new students.

Yes, there are resource issues, and yes compromises have to be made. But if it doesn't work, then the school is failing, and should be handed over to an organization that can make it work with the resources at hand.

Yes, there are bad situations, and you are discussing the extreme cases, but in most schools there are enough resources that keeping students back isn't going to end up in an infinitely growing class size - it will eventually even out to a static state the represents the area's population and ability.

So yes, classes might grow to 33, 35, 38, but they won't keep growing - there's a limit to this integral.

-Adam
Bolded the part this is for- WUT?
 
M

makare

Krisken said:
stienman said:
makare1 said:
We have to fix the resource problem before we can deal with extra students.
Then the school has to stop accepting new students.

Yes, there are resource issues, and yes compromises have to be made. But if it doesn't work, then the school is failing, and should be handed over to an organization that can make it work with the resources at hand.

Yes, there are bad situations, and you are discussing the extreme cases, but in most schools there are enough resources that keeping students back isn't going to end up in an infinitely growing class size - it will eventually even out to a static state the represents the area's population and ability.

So yes, classes might grow to 33, 35, 38, but they won't keep growing - there's a limit to this integral.

-Adam
Bolded the part this is for- WUT?
I give up. I honestly have no idea what he or covar are even talking about.
 
Krisken said:
stienman said:
makare1 said:
We have to fix the resource problem before we can deal with extra students.
Then the school has to stop accepting new students.

Yes, there are resource issues, and yes compromises have to be made. But if it doesn't work, then the school is failing, and should be handed over to an organization that can make it work with the resources at hand.

Yes, there are bad situations, and you are discussing the extreme cases, but in most schools there are enough resources that keeping students back isn't going to end up in an infinitely growing class size - it will eventually even out to a static state the represents the area's population and ability.

So yes, classes might grow to 33, 35, 38, but they won't keep growing - there's a limit to this integral.

-Adam
Bolded the part this is for- WUT?
This is why we need the school voucher program. It helps the private schools to take up more students and ease the burden on public schools. Otherwise, the students would be enrolled at public schools. Its not the entire solution. But it's a start.

I mean. The government spends $20k per student in public schools. Why not just give the student $7500 and let parents pay the rest for private schooling?

Its a savings of $12500 per student.
 
Krisken said:
stienman said:
makare1 said:
We have to fix the resource problem before we can deal with extra students.
Then the school has to stop accepting new students.
Bolded the part this is for- WUT?
makare1 is claiming that by keeping students back in the appropriate grade for their progress, class sizes will balloon to sizes that the school cannot handle.

If the school cannot handle the number of students it has, then it cannot accept new students.

Why is this an issue?

The kicker, though, is that each student brings in additional funding, and once enough classes get slightly too big, then you have enough funding for another teacher, and you can shift everything around so it fits. Get portable classrooms if you can't get people to vote for the millage for a new school building.

But makare1's issue appeared to be that there could be a reason to push children into the next grade even if they should be held back simply because the class sizes would continue to grow to untenable sizes. She contends that there are resource limitations, and so even children that cannot be expected to do the work of the next grade should be pushed forward anyway because the system cannot support them being held back.

-Adam
 
stienman said:
Krisken said:
stienman said:
makare1 said:
We have to fix the resource problem before we can deal with extra students.
Then the school has to stop accepting new students.
Bolded the part this is for- WUT?
makare1 is claiming that by keeping students back in the appropriate grade for their progress, class sizes will balloon to sizes that the school cannot handle.

If the school cannot handle the number of students it has, then it cannot accept new students.

Why is this an issue?

The kicker, though, is that each student brings in additional funding, and once enough classes get slightly too big, then you have enough funding for another teacher, and you can shift everything around so it fits. Get portable classrooms if you can't get people to vote for the millage for a new school building.

But makare1's issue appeared to be that there could be a reason to push children into the next grade even if they should be held back simply because the class sizes would continue to grow to untenable sizes. She contends that there are resource limitations, and so even children that cannot be expected to do the work of the next grade should be pushed forward anyway because the system cannot support them being held back.

-Adam
See, I'm ok with holding kids back. There is no understanding of failure (and NCLB encourages this). What I didn't understand was not accepting new students. Are you talking of public schools? I just want to be sure I understand the comment and be sure not to jump to conclusions here.
 
M

makare

stienman said:
But makare1's issue appeared to be that there could be a reason to push children into the next grade even if they should be held back simply because the class sizes would continue to grow to untenable sizes. She contends that there are resource limitations, and so even children that cannot be expected to do the work of the next grade should be pushed forward anyway because the system cannot support them being held back.

-Adam
uh no she doesn't. she thinks not keeping back kids is terrible but is a symptom of the larger problem which needs to be addressed first. She doesn't like it when people put words in her mouth either.
 
Krisken said:
What I didn't understand was not accepting new students. Are you talking of public schools? I just want to be sure I understand the comment and be sure not to jump to conclusions here.
I'm talking about any school.

If I understand makare1's point correctly, she was stating that children should be pushed forward regardless of their capability when schools do not have the resources to support them.

I'm saying that if the school does not have the resources to teach the students it already has, then it's better to send new students away to other schools and keep existing student back in the correct grade than it is to push the existing students forward into a grade they cannot handle in favor of accepting another new student.

So:

If a k-5 school has room for 300 students (50 students per grade, 25 students per class), and they are maxed out in resources as makare1 suggests (ie, the school cannot support more students per class/grade/whatever) then if they only 'graduate' 40 students, then they should only accept 40 new students. They should do this rather than forcing all 50 students to go to 6th grade when there are clearly several students that cannot handle the work that will be required of them.

In other words - don't push the problem forward, fix it first, then move on.

I'm not saying children should not be able to go to school - if the school is failing to support the local community then this needs to be resolved, but you can't just throw up your hands and say, "Well, I guess we're stuck - let's just push the kids forward and pretend that magically they'll catch up next year."

-Adam

-- Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:22 am --

makare1 said:
not keeping back kids is terrible but is a symptom of the larger problem which needs to be addressed first.
So you're saying there's no alternative to pushing them forward when they obviously can't handle the work.

I'm giving you an alternative, and you still don't seem to be addressing my alternative.

If the school cannot teach the number of children it has, then by definition it is failing. If it can't fix the problem, shut it down and turn it over to competent management.

What is the problem with this solution?

-Adam
 
M

makare

stienman said:
makare1 said:
not keeping back kids is terrible but is a symptom of the larger problem which needs to be addressed first.
So you're saying there's no alternative to pushing them forward when they obviously can't handle the work.

I'm giving you an alternative, and you still don't seem to be addressing my alternative.

If the school cannot teach the number of children it has, then by definition it is failing. If it can't fix the problem, shut it down and turn it over to competent management.

What is the problem with this solution?

-Adam
who are these people you are turning it over to? What if there isn't another school, which is often the case in the less populated states? What is going to happen to the teachers and the students while it is closed?

Your solution hinges on what I think are the best possibly conditions which is often not the case.

I have no problem bringing in new management but who the hell are they? Where do they come from? Who decides they are the right people for the job, or who decides what school is failing?
 
makare1 said:
stienman said:
makare1 said:
not keeping back kids is terrible but is a symptom of the larger problem which needs to be addressed first.
So you're saying there's no alternative to pushing them forward when they obviously can't handle the work.

I'm giving you an alternative, and you still don't seem to be addressing my alternative.

If the school cannot teach the number of children it has, then by definition it is failing. If it can't fix the problem, shut it down and turn it over to competent management.

What is the problem with this solution?

-Adam
who are these people you are turning it over to? What if there isn't another school, which is often the case in the less populated states? What is going to happen to the teachers and the students while it is closed?

Your solution hinges on what I think are the best possibly conditions which is often not the case.

I have no problem bringing in new management but who the * are they? Where do they come from? Who decides they are the right people for the job, or who decides what school is failing?
I think it also brings up makare's point regarding funding. Who are these new teachers? More schoolrooms? I know here they had a meeting to increase school sizes get turned down 3 times because no one wants to pay for it. I live in a fairly wealthy county, too.

If a wealthy county is running into problems of funding and overcrowding, what are the poor counties going to do?
 
Yes, yes, my proposal brings up a lot of questions, and highlights a lot of exceptional cases.

Even if I answered every question, and found solutions for each exception, there would be more questions and exceptions. I'm not about to try to resolve every difficulty, and there is no single solution that will work in every single case - of course there's always going to be the exceptional situation - the school that doesn't get more than a few k per student per year for instance - but these are the exception.

Pointing out the exceptions is useful, but torpedoing a plan because it doesn't fit everyone like a glove is shortsighted.

Some situations are intractable. But the vast majority of schools are doing it right, and doing it well, and they have NO reason to pass failing students up to the next grade, other than being lazy and not wanting to deal with the difficult situations.

-Adam

-- Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:23 am --

Krisken said:
I think it also brings up makare's point regarding funding. Who are these new teachers? More schoolrooms? I know here they had a meeting to increase school sizes get turned down 3 times because no one wants to pay for it. I live in a fairly wealthy county, too.

If a wealthy county is running into problems of funding and overcrowding, what are the poor counties going to do?
Each student comes with $$$ per year. A certain percentage of that goes to classroom operating costs. Once all the classrooms are full, then the overhead of the 'excess' students goes to portable classrooms if the community chooses that solution over a new building.

It's not great, it's far from ideal, but the community chose that option, so that's where their children will be taught.

Same with the teachers - the more students, the more money.

The situation with poor communities is more dire, and sometimes they pull of state funds, other times federal funds, and other times they simply do without many programs that we might consider essential (extracurricular activities, art, music, etc), and in those cases they have a more difficult time.

But pushing failing students through to the next grade exacerbates the problem - I just can't believe that this is the best choice.

-Adam
 
I really like the voucher idea you brought up Adam. The public school still gets 12,000 dollars for kids who aren't there, so they can then put all that extra money (and I really think it would be substantial, I think many parents would pull their kids out of public school in an instant if they could afford it) towards helping the students who remain.
Everyone wins it sounds like.
 
Espy said:
I really like the voucher idea you brought up Adam. The public school still gets 12,000 dollars for kids who aren't there, so they can then put all that extra money (and I really think it would be substantial, I think many parents would pull their kids out of public school in an instant if they could afford it) towards helping the students who remain.
Everyone wins it sounds like.
That wasn't steinman. That was me.

Futureking said:
I mean. The government spends $20k per student in public schools. Why not just give the student $7500 and let parents pay the rest for private schooling?

Its a savings of $12500 per student.
 
From Balanced Politics-

Yes

1. Rich parents have a choice of schools for their kids; poor parents should have the same choice. In all but the smallest areas of the country, parents have a number of options for their child's education. Various religious and non-religious schools are available. Unfortunately, the private schools are not free. They are often very expensive. Rich parents can and do often choose the school which has the best reputation and results. However, poor parents who can't afford the private tuition usually have only one option--the public school in their area. That one choice may be a crime-ridden school that fails in all measures of academia. Is it fair that only rich parents can send their children to the best schools?

2. Competition between schools is increased, leading to greater efficiency and results in all schools. For too long, public schools have been able to coast along with no level of accountability. When you're the only ones providing a subsidized education, you in effect have a monopoly; thus, you don't have as much of an incentive to improve efficiency. Competition has been the key to success in every area of business. How good would GM cars be if GM didn't have competition from Chrysler, Ford, and foreign operations? How good would Dell computers be if Dell didn't have competition from Gateway, IBM, Apple, and others? Competition will force public schools to squeeze out every bit of efficiency and start emphasizing the teaching of values such as hard work, discipline, and respect for others.

3. Private schools have a better history of getting results in teaching information and values than public schools. Private schools can cost a significant amount of money. Yet, even with the cost, people with the means will usually choose private over public schools. Why? It's because the reputation and results of private schools are so much better. Measures of both character and academic success are almost always better at the private schools. Private schools have accountability; if they don't do a superior job, they won't have any students (unlike public schools which will have students no matter how bad of a job they do). Private schools are allowed to be more flexible in their teaching methods. Most of all, private schools focus more on teaching lifelong values that are often tied to religion (e.g. respecting your neighbor, not lying or stealing, working hard, etc.).

4. Those parents who send their kids to private schools must in effect pay twice; i.e. their taxes pay for public schools that their children don't even attend. Regardless of where their children attend school, parents must pay taxes. These taxes are used to pay for the public school. Because private schools charge tuition, those parents that send their children to private schools are in effect paying twice.

5. Providing private school access to everyone will increase diversity. There is little debate that there's an income disparity between whites and other races. The option of expensive private schools often leads to schools that are somewhat segregated. Offering vouchers would introduce more diversity to the all schools since choice would no longer be a factor of income.

6. The parent makes the choice between religious or non-religious schooling; thus, the government isn't imposing religion. Each and every parent would have a choice of religious and non-religious school. Thus, the government would in no way be violating the 1st Amendment establishment clause.

No

1. Since most of the schools in the program are religious, government funding violates the 1st Amendment separation of church and state. The fact is that over 95 percent of all school vouchers go to religious schools. The Establishment clause of the 1st Amendment was put in specifically by the framers to avoid the abuses that inevitably come about in state-sponsored religious education. Centuries of religious wars in Europe plus the Middle Eastern wahabism serve as painful examples of religious dogma in schools. Religious ideas are invariably based on opinion & centuries-old teaching rather than scientific proof. Thus, they don't belong in the classroom, but in the home. Once government starts funding religious schools, it might start funding other religious institutions. Eventually, we have a religion-dominated society which can lead to discrimination (against gays, women, etc.) and take away individual freedoms (such as pornography, alcohol, etc.).

2. Vouchers take funds away from already underfunded public schools. One of the biggest reasons public schools are failing is that they can't keep up with the ever increasing cost of books, teachers, computers, security, etc. If we start subsidizing private schools, much-needed funds will be diverted from the public schools. This will only make bad schools worse.

3. Private schools aren't subject to as rigorous of oversight; thus, they may not act responsibly. Public schools are subject to government oversight and more rules & regulation. Thus, tighter control is placed on the teaching methods and system of education. With little or no oversight, we don't know how well private schools will perform.

4. Public schools must accept everyone regardless of disabilities, test scores, religion, or other characteristics; private schools can show favoritism or discrimination in selecting students. Private schools can establish any criteria they want for selecting or rejecting students. Thus, they can discriminate or make eligibility standards much more difficult for poorer students. Public schools on the other hand must accommodate all types of students regardless of what challenges they present. Government funds should be kept with the public schools that take on these challenges rather than private schools that may discriminate.
 
On another note- Remember that stink made about Pelosi being a hypocrite and overusing the military aircraft? Yeah, not so much.
The documents cover the period from January 2007 to November 2008 and show that Pelosi made the equivalent of 20 round-trips between Washington (Andrews Air Force Base) and San Francisco. That's an average of less than one round-trip per month. In contrast, former Speaker Hastert traveled home to his Illinois district virtually every weekend and, his former aides tell ABC News, he would almost always travel on military aircraft. Like Hastert, Pelosi also occasionally leads Congressional delegations on foreign trips (the documents show six foreign trips: one to Asia, three to the Middle East and two to Europe).

I love me some double standards in the morning.
 
Was Hastert demonizing Companies for using corporate jets? There is nothing wrong with members of Congress using non-commercial aircraft. There is nothing wrong with corporations using non-commercial aircraft. There is something wrong with using non-commercial aircraft and then chastizing anyone not in the government who uses non-commercial aircraft.

I love me some double standards in the morning.
me too, its why I commented on Pelosi in the first place.
 
Covar said:
Was Hastert demonizing Companies for using corporate jets? There is nothing wrong with members of Congress using non-commercial aircraft. There is nothing wrong with corporations using non-commercial aircraft. There is something wrong with using non-commercial aircraft and then chastizing anyone not in the government who uses non-commercial aircraft.

I love me some double standards in the morning.
me too, its why I commented on Pelosi in the first place.
I wasn't talking about the corporations. You're adding elements to this particular discussion that have nothing to do with the discussion I was advocating. Unless, of course, you're saying the corporations are the Republican party.
 
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