Gas Bandit's Political Thread V: The Vampire Likes Bats

You balance those interests against each other. This is why we have shitty postal service but awesome cell phones. At one time, AT&T held absolute monopoly over all telephony. Now we have more selection and options than anywhere on the planet for such things, and at lower prices - because we get more players in the game and force them to compete with each other. Monopoly is the enemy - a single monolithic entity controlling all, be it the government or a private company, or worst of all, the government under the sway of a private company. The greatest engine for human advancement and happiness is the free market, but it only works when there's more than one vendor. And the more vendors selling the same service or product, the better it is for all consumers. The proper role of the government is to ensure that choice. The last thing we should do is put all our eggs in one basket, especially since the entity holding this particular basket is well known for terrible customer service, bureaucratic inefficiency, and ineptitude.
Except that the US Postal service used to have excellent service, despite being the only player on the market. Your analogy doesn't work when the service we already had was top notch, but has only lost it's functionally through players in the market... or the fact that any other carrier is going to have a lesser service for fundamental reasons of profit.

And you speak of choice... and yet you would eliminate the choice of the US Postal Service?
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Except that the US Postal service used to have excellent service, despite being the only player on the market. Your analogy doesn't work when the service we already had was top notch, but has only lost it's functionally through players in the market... or the fact that any other carrier is going to have a lesser service for fundamental reasons of profit.

And you speak of choice... and yet you would eliminate the choice of the US Postal Service?
Whaaat? Excellent service? The postal service has been a running gag of inefficiency, bureaucracy and ineptitude as long as living memory. The last time people spoke of it with pride was the pony express. Eliminate the choice of the US Postal service?! They have a federally enforced monopoly!

Reminds me of a joke....

Guy goes in for a job interview at the postal service. Interviewer says, "well, you seem like a good candidate, is there anything more we should know?" "Yeah," the guy replies, "I'm a veteran, wounded in the war. Got my balls shot off." The interviewer doesn't miss a beat, and says, "Well, you're hired. We start work at 8, but you don't need to come in until 10." "Why's that?" asks the applicant. "Well, because first thing we do is stand around scratching our balls for 2 hours."
 
Whaaat? Excellent service? The postal service has been a running gag of inefficiency, bureaucracy and ineptitude as long as living memory. The last time people spoke of it with pride was the pony express. Eliminate the choice of the US Postal service?! They have a federally enforced monopoly!
Except it's NOT a monopoly because other services do compete with it and are doing so successfully. Or are you claiming that Fed-Ex and UPS are small, struggling companies? They could have as much coverage and delivery service as they wanted, but have chosen to restrict their service for profitability reasons. Their size and scope is entirely of their own doing. And ONE of these companies would have a de-facto government enforced advantage eventually anyway when one of said companies wins the contract for foreign military base service.

As for the inefficiency... perhaps, but it's still the only service willing to deliver to all but the most remote of places. Fed-Ex and UPS won't and probably won't in the future unless I'm willing to pay an enormous surcharge.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Except it's NOT a monopoly because other services do compete with it and are doing so successfully.
Let me tell you a real life story. In houston, about 30 years ago, there used to be a guy, first generation immigrant, who figured out he could support himself by making a circuit among all the hospitals and carrying messages/small parcels between them multiple times a day. He had it all worked out and was doing a good job. Hospitals that paid his fee were getting correspondence and other items they would normally have to mail to each other and a reply back again same day, as he had a circuit among all his customers that he made about 5 times a day. It was a great arrangement - he was gainfully (self) employed, supporting his family, the hospitals got fast same-day-multiple-times-a-day delivery between each other for a reasonable flat fee. It was really an inspiring tale of how the american dream was a reality and anyone with ingenuity and a willingness to put in the work could succeed while making a contribution to his community.

And then the post office shut him down for operating in violation of the Postal Express Statutes.
 
So... because he broke the law, I'm supposed to feel bad? He didn't even bother to check the legality of his buisness, nor has he attempted to set up a private courier company to do the same work he was doing before. That sounds an awful lot like the kind of thing you'd rail against.

Also, isn't this the same guy who was only found out because someone at one of the hospitals he was working for found out he was breaking the law and blackmailed him for free service for that hospital?
 

GasBandit

Staff member
So... because he broke the law, I'm supposed to feel bad? He didn't even bother to check the legality of his buisness, nor has he attempted to set up a private courier company to do the same work he was doing before. That sounds an awful lot like the kind of thing you'd rail against.

Also, isn't this the same guy who was only found out because someone at one of the hospitals he was working for found out he was breaking the law and blackmailed him for free service for that hospital?
Ah, so I've told you this story before.

Now you're moving the goalposts. You've gone from saying "there isn't a monopoly" to "the monopoly is right."
 
Now you're moving the goalposts. You've gone from saying "there isn't a monopoly" to "the monopoly is right."
No, your moving the goalposts. This guy had every opportunity and imperative to ensure his courier job was on the up and up and took no effort in even attempting it. Had he done so, he'd likely still have a successful route and could have potentially expanded his business further. Now he has nothing and it's through no fault but his own. Ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it.

And yes... he could have done this legally. My hospital system has a company doing something similar between it's member hospitals and it's never had this problem. It still makes enough money to have several full-time workers.
 
It sounds more like he's saying that if this guy had followed the law, he could have kept his private courier service running, like the private courier services that exist already.
 
So what law was he breaking though? I'm assuming not paying licensing and registration, not adding cost and bureaucracy that would provide him with no benefit to his business? This is sounding like the Uber vs Taxi Co. lawsuits that are going on.
 
As a point of reference, there are over 500,000 cellular towers in the US.

Belgium has fewer than 100.

Given the population, each tower in the US supports an average of 620 people. Each tower in Belgium supports an average of 110,000 people.

Yes, it's more complicated than that, but the difference is staggering, and you should realize that to maintain even 20 times as many towers per thousand people raises costs significantly. Most of the countries in the EU, and Asia are similarly situated. Fewer towers per person.
Does anyone know how tower ownership is handled in other countries? Do they have to share their towers at a set fee? I know the cell companies in the US don't like to share if they put up their own tower, which would make the number of towers that need to be built here much higher since Verizon, ATT, T-mobile, Sprint, and others might need all their own towers.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
I'm not an expert at courier services, but it seems to me that there's a very capricious, if not downright arbitrary factor in deciding what does and doesn't compete with the Postal Service's monopoly established in 1872. Supposedly it only extends to "letters," but obviously it extends to whatever they think will take a big chunk out of their income. Once in the 70s they even tried to assert bumper stickers counted as "letters." The only reason the post office ceded the "emergency delivery" loophole that allows most big couriers such as UPS, FedEx and DHL to operate is that they were under fire for already routinely failing to deliver urgent missives in a timely manner and just didn't want to be held accountable for it any more.

Here's some interesting reading on the history of the post office, and its actions vis a vis monopoly, from someone who knows a little more about it than me - the founder of FedEx.
 
Chances are good he was found to be carrying non urgent letters in addition to urgent letters. He might have been able to comply if he forced each item to be stamped "urgent" or "same day deliver required" for instance by the hospital.
This is why everything in the mail room at the hospital I work is separated into normal outgoing mail and inter service mail. Inter service mail often has time critical documents that need same day delivery, so it's the stuff that gets couriered. Everything else ether gets picked up by the post when they deliver the daily mail or dumped in the mailbox outside (because they have different pick-up times).
 
Even in the US running a single service on one tower is too costly, so very few towers are actually owned by the cellular company. The vast majority of towers are owned by third parties, and they lease out a section of tower to a given provider. Most towers can hold 2-3 different antenna structures, so support 2-3 different providers.

In urban areas building managers lease out the building the antennas go on. Each building, for the purposes of tower counting, is considered one tower.

In addition to spectrum crowding, tower crowding is one reason providers got rid of AMPS, and are working on getting rid of their 2G offerings. They want to use the tower slots being taken up by 2G technology for 4G radios.
I only ask because around me, rural area, you can tell which tower has ATT and which has Verizon. In the towns they are sharing the tower, but outside of town it's like they all have their own. You have distinct areas of service with those two providers, they rarely overlap.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Shall we call him Ray "Forty Cakes" Kelly? Because that's terrible?


We should call up George Gaynes and ask if he's up to playing Commandant Lessard just one more time. THAT would be an improvement.

 
Stienman, I don't know where you were pulling your numbers from, but I'm pretty sure the sun doesn't shine there.
I happen to work for the company that provides all security services to most cellular towers in Belgium - since they're all forced to share towers here, the owner of most sites insists on a security guard on site for any works done, so they don't start sabotaging each other (not that our guard would know what cable they're pulling loose or cutting or whatever, so it's entirely useless, but don't tell them).
There are, on Belgacom-owned lands (the company that used to have the phone monopoly in Belgium), over 5,000 separate towers in Belgium. Of course I admit that's a big difference from the US - we're a fucklot smaller - and since we live much closer together, one tower does cover more people. And I don't mean to say that has nothing to do with anything.
However, the open sky has much more influence on the strength of your signal - yes, if they're far away you'll get more lag, and obviously if there's a lot of people in between you'll end up with crappy reception, but a tower with a decent-powered transmitter could easily cover the entire surface of Belgium, if it were entirely flat (it isn't). It'd only serve maybe 1% of the population, but that doesn't alter the fact that you'd have a signal. There's literally no way, except by satellite, to get reception throughout Swiss without a separate pole on pretty much every other mountain top.
 
Again, however, this is small potatoes. The real cost difference is the fact that all US plans account for and include the cost of the phone, even if you already own your own phone. Changing that business model alone would account for the price difference in that chart.

True enough; they're trying really hard to push it the other way, though. Every new iPhone or Galaxy there's an operator pushing for plans with €1 new phones included. They're not allowed to lock you in for 2 years or more anymore, but if they "give" you a €1 iPhone they can attach clauses that have you paying a fee if you leave too soon - oftentimes 2 or 3 times what the phone is worth.

As for surface vs population: I never disagreed population density plays a major role in prices, only that geography played an important part as well. On the same area, you need more towers in heavy terrain (either cities or mountains or heavy forests) than on a plain, no matter how many people there are. In cities this is balanced by there being more people, elsewhere, not so much.
 

Dave

Staff member
I'm on vacation! I have been almost totally absent from most of my normal haunts. I will be back in full Tuesday. Monday will be probably playing catchup at my work.
 
A US corporation is trying to hide behind NAFTA to steal from Canadian taxpayers.

http://www.international.gc.ca/trad...x/topics-domaines/disp-diff/eli.aspx?lang=eng

Eli Lilly has decided that since Canada ended their patent on their expensive ass drug (A drug who's patent has been done in the US since 2011) that the Canadian tax payers owe them 500 million in lost profits. They're claiming it on the grounds of fair and equitable treatment. This is just over 60 bucks per actual (as in actually ends up paying taxes) taxpayer in Canada.

This is a pharmecutical company that does billions in profits.

Fucking ridiculous. This should end in punitive measures like the loss of all their patents. Fuck you.
 
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GasBandit

Staff member
Man, I really empathize with folks who identify with another gender, but doesn't seem like a great idea for a wide variety of reasons.
Fun fact. I once asked a child, indulgently, whether they were a boy or a girl. The childs answer? Dinosaur. I guess schools are going to have a lot of renovations to do.
 
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